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Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Given the ongoing discussion of the legal dispute between Stardock and Paul Reiche and Fred Ford, designers of Star Control I and II, I wanted to take time to make Stardock's position clear and address inaccuracies that have been promoted.

As the need arises, I’ll continue to update this post with additional questions and answers.

Q: What are the issues in dispute?

A: On the eve of launch of the beta of Star Control: Origins in October 2017, a game Stardock has spent the past four years working on, Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford, the designers of Star Control II for Accolade 25 years ago announced a new game, Ghosts of the Precursors as a “direct” sequel to Star Control even going so far as to promote it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.

They did this despite knowing Stardock had acquired the Star Control IP in 2013 and knowing before hand our announcement schedule. Their actions created confusion in the market as to the origin of Star Control games which is why we have trademark laws. 

When Stardock asked that they cease and desist marketing their game as a sequel to Star Control they refused and began demanding that the sale of the DOS games, which had been on sale continuously since before Stardock acquired the IP and for which they had been receiving royalties for during the entire time cease and began to disparage Stardock publicly in the press. 

Despite Stardock's best efforts to reach a private, mutually beneficial co-existence agreement, Paul and Fred responded with increasingly hostile, misleading public attacks and served Steam and GOG with DMCA take-down notices on all of the classic DOS games, including Star Control 3 which they had no involvement with all while continuing to promote their new game as the "true" sequel to Star Control.

In addition, Paul Reiche and Fred Ford also began to claim that various features of Star Control: Origins violated their copyrights such as the ship designer, user interface similarities and other elements that are not subject to copyright protection (you can’t copyright an idea and Star Control itself was inspired by many other games). They also began to demand special access to Star Control: Origins to inspect it and demanded the removal of the ship designer,

As a result of their broad interpretation of what they believe they have rights to combined with their willingness to instruct their lawyers to issue a DMCA take down notices, even on titles in which they had no involvement in, combined with their refusal to cease promoting their game as the sequel to Star Control, Stardock was forced to file a complaint over their continuing trademark infringement.

In retaliation, Reiche and Ford filed a countersuit seeking to cancel the Star Control trademark and for copyright infringement due to the sale of the classic Star Control games on GOG and Steam and are even suing GOG despite the fact that Reiche and Ford were the ones who claim to have helped get the classic Star Control games onto GOG.

Q: Why did Stardock file the initial lawsuit against Paul and Fred?

A: We had no choice after Paul and Fred filed DMCA claims against the distribution not only of Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which they admit they had no involvement.  The DMCA claims were reversed, but it was clear that our ability to create more experiences in the Star Control multiverse for fans would be at risk if they are allowed to continue to misrepresent their new game as being associated with Star Control without a license while simultaneously making broad, unsupportable claims of ownership on ideas and concepts that are present not just in Star Control games but games in general.  

Q: How did these unfortunate events come to pass?

A: Here is a timeline of the order of events:

  1. Stardock acquires the Star Control brand, copyright to Star Control 3, the license to use the Star Control classic characters, lore and the right to distribute the classic DOS games.  The DOS games are already available on GOG  with Atari listed as the publisher. (2013)
  2. Stardock discuss plans for the new Star Control.  They state that their employment by Activision prevents them from working on a new Star Coxntrol game and request that we not use the aliens from Star Control 2 but do not contest Stardock's right to do so.  (2013)
  3. Upon learning that Activision has blocked their ability to be involved and that Paul and Fred hope to one day to continue their stories, Stardock offers to transfer its rights to Star Control to them, thus uniting the Star Control brand with Paul and Fred's licensed IP.  (2013)
  4. Paul and Fred ask what Stardock acquired from Atari to which Stardock responds: The trademark, assets to Star Control 3 and the right to sell distribute, market and promote the original trilogy.
  5. Paul acknowledges Stardock's position and asks how much it cost.
  6. Paul and Fred politely decline the offer to acquire the Star Control IP. (2013)
  7. Stardock announces a reboot of Star Control and explicitly states that it will not include the characters from the classic series out of respect for Paul and Fred. (2013)
  8. Stardock spends the next 4 years and millions of dollars developing Star Control: Origins. (2013-2017)
  9. Stardock provides Paul and Fred regular updates on progress including video of pre-alpha footage, design notes, screenshots.  Relations are amicable and supportive. (2013-2017)
  10. Stardock updates Paul and Fred on Star Control: Origins release schedule and begins planning its 25th anniversary which will include releasing the classic games onto more channels.  Stardock asks if there would be any interest in having SC2 ships appear in Super-Melee. The games are submitted and approved by Steam in preparation (Summer 2017).
  11. Paul and Fred contact Stardock to inform them that they will be announcing a new game that will utilize the characters from their universe.  (Fall 2017)
  12. Stardock is both pleased and concerned about the timing of their plan, points out the licensing agreement would allow Stardock to use their IP (albeit at a higher royalty than Stardock was hoping for). Stardock asks that they coordinate these announcements together ensure there is no confusion and about the games appearing competitive. (Fall 2017)   
  13. Paul and Fred state they plan to make a sequel to Star Control II which would violate Stardock's trademark rights (you can't claim your product is a sequel to another company's product).  Paul and Fred also assert that Stardock does not have a license to their IP.
  14. In the email below Paul and Fred state that each party should work within its respective rights: Stardock having the Star Control trademarks and Paul and Fred owning all the IP rights to the works they created. Note that at this point, Paul and Fred recognized that owning the registration to the Star Control trademark also includes many common law trademarks. Hence "trademarks" plural.
  15. Stardock responds stating that as far as Stardock is aware, while Paul and Fred own the IP they created, Stardock does have an active licensing agreement that controls how that IP can and can't be used.  Stardock also reiterates that it has not used this license out of respect for Paul and Fred. (October 2017)
  16. Stardock states its concern at the idea of Paul and Fred representing their game as a "direct sequel", asks to schedule a call to discuss.  Note that at this point, Brad, like many, is under the impression that Paul and Fred essentially created Star Control on their own, a two-man team with licensed music was not uncommon thing back in 1992 (Stardock later re-evaluates that position after learning that the project had a large budget for 1990 and immense talent on it). (October 2017)
  17. Paul and Fred respond that they simply don't agree but provide no evidence as to why the licensing agreement would have expired. (October 2017)
  18. Stardock provides its reviewed legal position.  Stardock isn't using any IP from the classic games other than the right to market and sell them as they have been for several years.  (October 2017)
  19. Stardock points out that it has a license to the IP to use provided it pays a royalty of 10% (which is why Stardock has asked in the past for a new licensing agreement as 10% is too much for a cameo of a classic character). Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell suggests talking on the phone to iron things out. (October 2017).
  20. Email includes proposal:
  21. Paul and Fred refuse Stardock's proposal and begin to demand changes to Star Control: Origins.
  22. Paul and Fred, knowing the date Stardock was planning to announce the Fleet Battles beta, preemptively announce Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control II; use the Star Control II box (which is owned by Stardock) as the only art on the page for it; promote it to the media and to social media as the "true" sequel to Star Control.  (October)
  23. Despite having just stated that their efforts should be "separated" by each parties rights (Stardock with the trademarks) Paul and Fred almost immediately violate that understanding by using the Star Control trademarks throughout their announcement.
  24. The Star Control trademark is mentioned 4 times in the announcement, each with an (R) without mentioning Stardock leading a reasonable consumer to believe it is their mark (Ghosts of the Precursors is listed once). 
  25. Paul and Fred claim they "released" Star Control II on the same page that shows Star Control II with the Accolade mark misleading the relationship between Accolade and Paul and Fred (who, regardless of their tremendous work, were contracted by Accolade to create content that was then licensed into Accolade's product).
  26. The media follow-up by referring to it as "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors". (October)
  27. Paul and Fred promote the idea that it's Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors and not its own game:
  28. The above is one example among dozens.
  29. Paul and Fred publicize coverage of their new game with each post using the Star Control mark but not a single one using the term "Ghosts of the Precursors".  Looking below, what's the name of their new game?
  30. Many posts and articles appear, endorsed by Paul and Fred that state that their new game is a "direct sequel" to Star Control.  Some refer to it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.
  31. Stardock moves forward on its 25th anniversary plans, release the beta of Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles beta and relaunches the classic DOS games for the 25th anniversary on Steam. (October)
  32. Paul and Fred's attorney contacts Stardock's CEO.  This is the first time lawyers have been involved.  Lawyers take over. (October)
  33. Paul and Fred begin to demand that Stardock begin policing the Star Control community for fan art that they believe violates their rights (including members of this forum and on Steam). (October)
  34. Paul and Fred begin demanding the removal of features from Star Control: Origins including the ship designer (a feature that has been part of Stardock's games for over a decade). (October)
  35. Paul and Fred begin demanding insider builds of Star Control: Origins for inspection and begin insisting various broad features are their property despite having no right to do so. (October)
  36. Paul and Fred reject numerous attempts to create a co-existence agreement that would permit Ghosts of the Precursors to go forward independently.   (November)
  37. Paul and Fred insist they have the right to associate their game with Stardock's trademarks including referring to their game as the "true" sequel to Star Control. (November)
  38. Paul and Fred demand that the DOS games be removed from distribution while still providing no evidence to support their claim that the agreement had expired. (November)
  39. Paul and Fred begin to make public defamatory blog posts and tweets about Stardock. (December)
  40. Paul and Fred file DMCA notices against Steam and GOG not just for Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which Stardock holds the federally registered copyright for and that Paul and Fred had no involvement in. (December)
  41. Stardock's attorneys file a suit against Paul and Fred for trademark infringement and other causes of action. (December)
  42. Paul and Fred's attorney files a lawsuit against Stardock alleging copyright infringement and other causes of action. (February).
  43. Paul and Fred's PR firm releases a press release to the wire services accusing Stardock of "copyright theft" do press interviews attacking Stardock. (February)
  44. This post is initially made. (February)
  45. Paul and Fred post an email exchange they claim is between themselves and Atari, something they had not shown to Stardock and still have not provided to Stardock to evaluate. 
  46. Paul and Fred post what they claim is a Stardock settlement proposal in violation of federal rule 408. Stardock denies the accuracy. (March)
  47. Paul and Fred's PR firm targets Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell personally on Twitter for abuse with an inflammatory and completely inaccurate social media post. (March)
  48. Paul and Fred like a tweet that purports that these activities have cost Stardock up to 50% of potential sales and may lead to review bombing of the final game:  (March)
  49. To make clear that Stardock's concern is regarding the protection of its Star Control IP and not the sales of Star Control: Ur-Quan Masters, it decides that it will be suspend sales of the classic games until the dispute is resolved starting April 4. (March 2018).

Q: Don't Paul and Fred contend that the 1988 licensing agreement with Accolade has expired?

A: That is their position.  However, since the dispute began, Stardock has chosen to err on the side of caution and operate as if that is the case.   Stardock requested that GOG and Steam remove the games for sale pending a resolution.  The 1988 agreement, however, does not have anything to do with the Star Control trademarks were were always owned by Accolade and were assigned to Stardock.   

Stardock's ownership of the Star Control trademark is incontestable.  You can review the federal registration that dates back to the 1990s here.

Q: But isn't it true that Star Control: Origins has very similar gameplay to Star Control II? That you explore planets, travel through hyperspace to different star systems, meet with aliens? Couldn't their copyright of Star Control II mean that Star Control: Origins is too similar?

A: You cannot copyright an idea.  Putting aside that Star Control itself borrowed many ideas from many other games, copyright protects creative expression. Not game play.  

There are articles you can read that discuss this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_clone 

https://venturebeat.com/2013/03/16/defeating-mobile-game-clones-why-copyright-protection-is-not-enough/ 

https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/11752/is-it-legally-possible-to-make-a-clone-of-the-game 

Obviously, anyone who has ever played Angry Birds or Candy Crunch already knows this.

That said, Star Control: Origins is not a clone of Star Control II.  The 25-year gap in game technology allows Star Control: Origins to deliver a much richer experience.  So while the core concepts remain true: You are the captain of a starship traveling through this part of the galaxy, meeting aliens, engaging in battles, exploring planets, the implementation is very different.

In short: Gameplay clones aren't illegal and even if it were illegal, Star Control: Origins is not a clone. 

 

Q: Why does Stardock claim that Paul and Fred were not the creators of Star Control?

A: Paul and Fred were the designers of Star Control I and II.  In the credits, on the box and elsewhere they had previously officially listed themselves as either developers or designers.  

While Stardock has no objection to “creators” in the casual sense, legally, and when trying to promote a product in commerce, they are not. Most of the Copyrighted material people think of as being important to Star Control was created and owned by others. 

For 25 years, Designer was their official designation.   

It is Stardock's opinion that they have begun to focus on referring to themselves as "creators" in their marketing in order to give the impression that Ghosts of the Precursors would have the the same creative core as Star Control II.   This is not the case.

What most people do not realize is Star Control II had, in essence, the dream Sci-Fi team as mentioned in this 25th anniversary tribute. The lead animator went on to lead the animation at Pixar and is the director of the Minions movies.  Many of the alien designs were created by the artist who went on to design Darth Maul and other Star Wars and Marvel movie characters.  Many of the most quoted lines came from seasoned Sci-Fi writers.  The engaging music was created by others.

We respect Paul and Fred’s crucial contributions as well as the rest of the talented team who worked on Star Control.  

Q: Who owns the Star Control trademark?

A: Stardock is the legal owner of the federally registered trademark for Star Control.  You can view it here. https://www.trademarkia.com/star-control-75095591.html 

Q: What does Stardock want out of this lawsuit?  

A:  Our ONLY goal is to protect our ability to tell more stories in the Star Control multiverse.  We remain fans of Paul and Fred and their contributions to Star Control.  However, given the confusion they’ve created in the market by promoting their new game as a “true sequel” to Star Control II combined with their abuse of the DMCA system to take down even Star Control games they had no involvement with, we are forced to act to prevent them from continuing to create confusion.   

Consider some of your favorite games or movies. Now imagine if someone instrumental to the development of that game or movie went on to claim to be making a sequel to that game or movie without the consent of the owners of that trademark? What would be the result?

Q: But doesn't Paul and Fred own all the in-game IP?

A: Paul and Fred own whatever IP they created.  What that is remains to be seen. Stardock does not claim to own any copyrighted material within Star Control II which is why the new Star Control: Origins is set in its own universe with its own characters and story.

However, as of April 2018, neither Paul or Fred had any rights to any of the art and much of the writing in Star Control II. However, even if they did, it would be irrelevant as Stardock isn't using any copyrighted material from Star Control 1, 2, or 3 in the new Star Control games.

On the trademark side, simply because you were contracted to work on a game does not grant you the right to make a new game and claim it is related regardless of what copyrights you think you may own (otherwise, you could argue that Unity and Epic could start to make sequels to other people's games).

For example, Paul Reiche is the President of an Activision studio.  Blizzard is another Activision studio.  Stardock was once contracted to develop a StarCraft expansion (StarCraft: Retribution). One can imagine the response Stardock would receive it it were to announce a new game as a "direct sequel" to StarCraft: Retribution.

By contrast, not only did Paul and Fred announce their new game as a "direct" and later "true" sequel to Star Control, they even used the Star Control II box, that was acquired by Stardock, to promote it.

As much as we respect Paul and Fred, the fact is, Paul Reiche was contracted as an independent contractor (not as a company) by Accolade to develop Star Control for Accolade.  This is a fairly routine method that developers get products made (Stardock's own Fences, WindowBlinds, Groupy, IconPackager, etc. were developed using the same method).

Q: Do these legal issues have any impact on Star Control: Origins?

A: UPDATE:

Apparently yes.  Despite Star Control: Origins having nothing to do with Reiche and Ford's games, they have filed DMCA take down notices to Steam and GOG to take down Star Control: Origins.  They claim (with not specificity) that they own copyrights in Star Control: Origins

Game sites don't make legal judgments on the merits.  They simply remove the content.  No one, to our knowledge, has ever tried to do this on a shipping game before.  

You can read our response here.

 

Q: Why did Stardock trademark Ur-Quan Masters, Super Melee, and other names from the original games? 

A: Once Paul and Fred began to challenge the validity of our intellectual property we were forced to take steps to solidify our common law rights. Specifically, Paul and Fred have worked to try to separate Stardock's Star Control mark from its association with the classic games.  

The reason companies were bidding to acquire the Star Control trademarks and willing to pay $300,000 for it was for the association with the classic series.  The trademarks, being in active use in connection with the beloved classic series, made it valuable.  

When Paul and Fred began to seek to cancel the Star Control mark and make public statements that Star Control: Origins isn't related to the classic series Stardock felt obligated to respond by reinforcing its intellectual property rights to the classic series.  

As background: Stardock always had the common law trademark to Ur-Quan Masters. It's the sub-title to Star Control II after all and was, by Paul and Fred's admission, available in commerce on GOG even before Stardock was involved. Super-Melee is literally a promoted feature from Star Control. The alien names are so strongly associated with Star Control that if you Google Star Control aliens they come up as the first entry.  

They have made it very clear that they believe that they have the right to associate their new game with Star Control on the basis that they have previously licensed content to Star Control games. They have no such right.

Q: Why did Stardock really need to trademark the Star Control 2 alien names?

A: Star Control fans expect new Star Control games to have the Spathi, Ur-Quan, Orz, etc.   We originally chose not to include them in Star Control: Origins in deference to Paul and Fred who asked us not to.  

However, in December 2017, Paul and Fred posted:

This creates confusion because Stardock alone owns the Star Control universe. That doesn’t mean it owns any lore or stories created by others. It just means that Stardock has the right to determine what is canon in the Star Control universe.  

The Star Control aliens are associated with Star Control. That doesn’t mean Stardock can use expressions and stories of those aliens without permission. But it does mean Stardock has the right to create its own stories and expressions for the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc.

When Paul and Fred were contracted to develop Star Control I and Star Control II for Accolade, they were allowed to keep certain copyrights to the works they created. But all trademarks were explicitly defined as being owned by Accolade. 

Incidentally, their name was put into a diagram because they literally announced their game as a sequel to Star Control II.  They associated their new game with Star Control, not the other way around.

Q: Is Stardock trying to prevent Paul and Fred from making new games in their universe?

A: No.  Stardock wants them to create new games in the universe they created.  However, this needs to be handled in such a way that there is no confusion as to the relationship between Star Control and the works they licensed for Star Control II.

Q: If Stardock wants a new game from Paul and Fred, why did the settlement offer that Paul and Fred publicly posted that they claim came from Stardock demand that they "surrender" their IP?

A: It is regrettable that Paul and Fred chose to violate confidentiality and post, without context, a settlement offer.  Paul and Fred have been offered many settlement proposals with many different terms and are intended for negotiation by both parties to try to reach an amicable settlement.

Stardock paid over $300,000 for the Star acontrol IP which included the trademark and copyright to Star a Control 3. The Star Control brand is, in our view, far more valuable than any copyrighted material within a 25 year old DOS game. Source code and alien art. Nothing else, as far as we can discern, falls under copyright protection. You can’t copyright “lore” or timelines, or alien names, or game designs or UI.  

Thus, all we would gain would be the ability to have Ur-Quan that look just like the old Ur-Quan and space ships that look like the classic space ships. The greater value would be to make sure this kind of dispute didn’t happen again. But that value would still not overcome the damage they’ve caused in the market place due to the confusion on who owns Star Control and the ill will due to their PR company issuing false and misleading press releases and publicizing the dispute in a way to maximize ill will. Not to mention the considerable and rising legal costs.

None of this would prevent Paul and Fred from making a new game if that really is their desire. Stardock, in turn, would have been happy to license, free of charge, any IP they needed to make their new game.

Our respect for the work Paul and Fred did 25 years ago remains undiminished.  However, that respect does not give them the right to disrupt our product development at the 11th hour or misrepresent their new endeavors as the "true" sequel to our products.

Our dedication to bringing you a new Star Control game remains unchanged.  BETA 2 of Star Control: Origins is due in a few weeks.

For those interested in reading the details, our complete initial filing available online:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385277-Stardock-Legal-Complaint-2635-000-P-2017-12-08-1.html

Stardock 25th anniversary post documenting the creation of Star Control:

https://www.stardock.com/games/article/485810/star-control-ii-25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants  

 


Thank you for being fans of Star Control, and supporting our effort to make a great new game in the Star Control franchise.

And if you have questions that you’d like to see added to this post, feel free to reach out to me directly via Twitter at @kevinunangst

Kevin Unangst

Vice President, Marketing and Strategic Partnerships

Stardock Entertainment

1,790,169 views 728 replies
Reply #501 Top

Quoting BionicDance, reply 498

I was gonna ask about the music, since it was obviously from SC2...and yet, amid this copyright flap, it seemed odd that it was in SCO.

 

Believe me when I say, NOT complaining.

 

So, you know...thanks for clearing that one up. :)

Yep.  One of the biggest misconceptions is that P&F "own the copyright" on everything in Star Control which was never the case. Accolade has no more power to transfer someone's copyright to someone else than any other entity.   The music is just one of many examples where someone else owned those copyrights.

Stardock couldn't use the music until it had signed agreements with the actual copyright holders.  So for instance, until recently, we couldn't have the classic Super-Melee music in the new game because we didn't a license from Dan Nicholson (we do now).

 

 

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Reply #502 Top

even though those names were part of the game, they never became part of its brand identity, and consequently are not protected by its trademark.

I suspect that a truly impartial jury would agree with this...fans of the game might not.

I mean, y'say to me "Spathi", "Ur-Quan", or "Thraddash", I'm totally gonna know what you mean and where it came from. But I've been playin' this shit for decades; I suspect almost every member of a jury has not.

(And I know I wouldn't be honest about it, even if I knew that those names--and what the represent--really would be a violation of copyright were Stardock to use 'em; I want a game based on SC2, I think Origins would have been...I hesitate to say "better", but perhaps would feed my fangirl glee rather more...and so, as a jury member, I'd probably rule in my self-interest rather than the letter of the law. Like I said...I wouldn't be impartial. I'd also probably be disqualified from the jury-selection process; the prosecution would almost certainly ask each jury member whether they'd played any of the games and booted anyone who had.)

 

Not to overuse a frequently-employed meme, here, but IANAL, so I could be way off-base, here, but it seems reasonable to my layman's understanding, what I've postulated here.

Reply #503 Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 499

In this case, the argument is that Accolade never established a brand around any of the alien names; there were no "Slylandro"-branded pillows, "Shofixti"-branded firecrackers, or "Syreen"-branded...well, you get the idea.  Even the Ur-Quan were only mentioned in small print on the box.  Without any of those efforts, even though those names were part of the game, they never became part of its brand identity, and consequently are not protected by its trademark.

At least that is the argument.  I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not going to assert that I can predict what a court will say, let alone a jury.  But this seems to best fit what I've been able to read about how trademarks work.

The only question that would be asked of a jury would be that if a game was released and it had aliens with the names Arilou, Spathi, Pkunk, etc. would you think it originated in Star Control?  

If you want to use the Star Control aliens in commerce, you need the permission of the Star Control trademark holder.  That would be Stardock. For Paul and Fred, we would gladly give them a royalty free perpetual license to do so.  We would even transfer the Ur-Quan Masters trademark to them so that they could call their game Ur-Quan Masters II (and eliminate the "concern" over what Stardock might do to UQM) provided that they did not interfere with our involvement there.

But in either case, there is no question whether we can have the Star Control aliens in new Star Control games.  To avoid any copyright entanglements, our expression of the Star Control aliens will be our own just as our lore is our own.

 

Reply #504 Top

The music is just one of many examples where someone else owned those copyrights.

See, that's just strange to me...that a game developer would have a signed agreement with all content creators that what was made for the game would be owned by the company is something I'd have expected in all cases.

But then, I really don't know those inner-workings; when I worked in the games industry, I was an artist in the direct employ of the company, and never even considered the possibility that they might not own what I was building for them.

So for instance, until recently, we couldn't have the classic Super-Melee music in the new game

How recently?

Cuz, I'll be honest, if that's what's in Fleet Battles in the currently released build, it's been remixed to where I don't really recognize it...and I've been replaying UQM lately to get even more psyched for Origins (though that may be to my own detriment; I'm already champing at the bit for September to get here) so it's kind of fresh in my head...

Reply #505 Top

Quoting BionicDance, reply 504

How recently?

Cuz, I'll be honest, if that's what's in Fleet Battles in the currently released build, it's been remixed to where I don't really recognize it...and I've been replaying UQM lately to get even more psyched for Origins (though that may be to my own detriment; I'm already champing at the bit for September to get here) so it's kind of fresh in my head...

For the answer to this I'd suggest join the Stardock Discord server :) lots of stuff like this gets answered in various channels plus fan artwork, new screenshots, and etc get shared frequently.  Also Serosis "Maintainer of UQM MegaMod" is in there, so if you find bugs in MegaMod needing addressed that's where I poke him to get them repaired.

Reply #506 Top

Quoting BionicDance, reply 504


The music is just one of many examples where someone else owned those copyrights.



See, that's just strange to me...that a game developer would have a signed agreement with all content creators that what was made for the game would be owned by the company is something I'd have expected in all cases.

But then, I really don't know those inner-workings; when I worked in the games industry, I was an artist in the direct employ of the company, and never even considered the possibility that they might not own what I was building for them.


So for instance, until recently, we couldn't have the classic Super-Melee music in the new game



How recently?

Cuz, I'll be honest, if that's what's in Fleet Battles in the currently released build, it's been remixed to where I don't really recognize it...and I've been replaying UQM lately to get even more psyched for Origins (though that may be to my own detriment; I'm already champing at the bit for September to get here) so it's kind of fresh in my head...

It really depends on the game.   It's a lot cheaper if someone gets to keep their copyrights.  For instance, in Galactic Civilizations I for Windows, we licensed most of the music because it was a lot cheaper.

The Super-Melee music (classic) isn't in game yet because by recently I mean, last week. :)

 

Reply #507 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 503
The only question that would be asked of a jury would be that if a game was released and it had aliens with the names Arilou, Spathi, Pkunk, etc. would you think it originated in Star Control?

No offense, but that's a legal assertion that I'd have to hear from a qualified neutral source before accepting.  For one thing, even if that question is correct, what's the audience?  Only a tiny fraction of the public will remember the old races.  My own reading also suggests that there are other questions that are relevant (people can search for 'functionality' and 'secondary meaning', if they want to go do their own research on the tests involved in trademark validity).

If you want to use the Star Control aliens in commerce, you need the permission of the Star Control trademark holder.

The question, as I see it, is whether or not the aliens in SC2 are really established as being associated with the "Star Control" brand itself, or just with the game that was published under that brand.  That determines whether they are "Star Control aliens", or "Aliens from that game with the Ur-Quan".  This is particularly relevant since the "Ur-Quan Masters" project has been publishing that game under a different name for the last 17 years or so, including a long stretch where Star Control itself wasn't being sold.  What if people go "Ur-Quan?  Oh, those were the nasty aliens from that open-source game"?

But in either case, there is no question whether we can have the Star Control aliens in new Star Control games.  To avoid any copyright entanglements, our expression of the Star Control aliens will be our own just as our lore is our own.

Sure...the question there is where the jury will draw the line on how similar is too similar (and I'm not going to try to predict what a jury will do).

Reply #508 Top

The Super-Melee music (classic) isn't in game yet because by recently I mean, last week. 

Okay, so I'm not failing in my duties as a fan...phew! :)

For the answer to this I'd suggest join the Stardock Discord server

I have to admit, I've been resisting getting on Discord...it'd been like, "What...another social media platform? I can barely keep up with Facebook and YouTube anymore, and now this? Ugh."

Reply #509 Top

Quoting BionicDance, reply 508

I have to admit, I've been resisting getting on Discord...it'd been like, "What...another social media platform? I can barely keep up with Facebook and YouTube anymore, and now this? Ugh."

 

Discord is less a form of social media platform such as Facebook and more an evolution of something more oldschool... it's an evolution of the IRC servers from the 90s.  Best part about it :D Screenshot Friday!

Reply #510 Top

Quoting BionicDance, reply 504
See, that's just strange to me...that a game developer would have a signed agreement with all content creators that what was made for the game would be owned by the company is something I'd have expected in all cases.

Stardock's argument in this regard seems to be "Paul's friends helped him make the game, and the records are muddled after 25 years, so we can't tell what parts he did personally, and therefore would have the copyright on, vs those his friends did."

That argument may be legally effective, depending on how much old material Paul can dig up, and whether he can reach and convince the people involved to formally assign him their rights. 

But the way I personally see it, Paul and his group made the game, which was then published with a prominent copyright attribution to Paul and Fred.  All of the other people involved surely were aware of this, and none of them raised a voice in disagreement.  For me, that's good enough to satisfy my sense of proper attribution and rights allocation.  We'll just have to see what the courts say about the legalities.

Reply #511 Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 510

But the way I personally see it, Paul and his group made the game, which was then published with a prominent copyright attribution to Paul and Fred.  All of the other people involved surely were aware of this, and none of them raised a voice in disagreement.  For me, that's good enough to satisfy my sense of proper attribution and rights allocation.  We'll just have to see what the courts say about the legalities.

 

The big thing here though is it wasn't Paul who originally made the game and went to Accolade to be a distributor, Accolade contracted Paul who then subcontracted others to help make the game which is likely why the court case is going to take an insanely long time for it's discovery period.

Reply #512 Top

Discord is less a form of social media platform such as Facebook and more an evolution of something more oldschool... it's an evolution of the IRC servers from the 90s.

My reason for resisting stands: social media overload.

Stardock's argument in this regard seems to be "Paul's friends helped him make the game...

Now, that issue is something that I only got a minor taste of when I binged on this now-21-page debate; I admit, I don't really know the production history of SC2.

Because, from the descriptions I'm hearing, it sounds like a classic built-in-their-garage entrepreneur thing, like a couple of hackers in Mom's basement managed to kludge together a really cool game, rather than working in an office for a professional company. And since they couldn't do everything themselves, they got some buddies to help 'em out with the parts they couldn't do, like artwork or music. And then they shopped it around to publishers.

At least, that's what it's sounded like from reading (okay, after a while it turned into power-skimming) this thread.

That would certainly explain a few things that, until now, have been a bit muddled for me...or maybe I'm completely wrong. I d'know.

Reply #513 Top

Quoting BionicDance, reply 512
My reason for resisting stands: social media overload.

Can't blame you for that.  For what it's worth, the main venues for discussion are here (where there is a pro-Stardock slant), Reddit (where there is an anti-Stardock slant), and the UQM forums, (where there is a pro-P&F slant).  It's unfortunate that there doesn't seem to be a neutral venue anymore, but most people have stopped venturing into "hostile" territory because tempers have gotten too frayed (on both sides).

Because, from the descriptions I'm hearing, it sounds like a classic built-in-their-garage entrepreneur thing, like a couple of hackers in Mom's basement managed to kludge together a really cool game, rather than working in an office for a professional company. And since they couldn't do everything themselves, they got some buddies to help 'em out with the parts they couldn't do, like artwork or music. And then they shopped it around to publishers.

I don't know exactly how much was done before Accolade was signed as the publisher, but the total budget for the first two games was about $125k, spread over about a year and a half from 1988-1990.  I think inflation-adjusting to today's dollars roughly doubles the value of that money.  P&F did a GDC postmortem on the development process, if you've got some time to watch a video.  They actually go into detail on how the music came about, and what they did when Accolade cut off their money before they were done.

Reply #514 Top

I might have to give that postmortem a lookie. Thanks. :)

Reply #515 Top

Quoting BionicDance, reply 514
I might have to give that postmortem a lookie. Thanks. :)

No problem.  :-)  If you prefer videos, there's a YouTube IP lawyer who did a pair of them about the lawsuit with a Melnorme accent (which I'm pretty sure was unintentional).

Reply #516 Top

Quoting BionicDance, reply 508

I have to admit, I've been resisting getting on Discord...it'd been like, "What...another social media platform? I can barely keep up with Facebook and YouTube anymore, and now this? Ugh."

Discord is more like a chat program.  So it's real-time.  

But in any event, whether it's here or on Discord, we try to keep up with everyone's feedback.  It's made a tremendous difference in the game.

Reply #517 Top

Quoting BionicDance, reply 514

I might have to give that postmortem a lookie. Thanks. :)

Just be aware that Elestan is very much in the pro-PF / anti-Stardock camp.  The reason he gets a hostile reception is that he tries to appear objective while being quite obviously not once you start to look into it.

Reply #518 Top

But in any event, whether it's here or on Discord, we try to keep up with everyone's feedback.

Well...there'z some feedback I've left recently that...well...I d'know whether anybody's looked at it. 

Maybe it's one of those can't-reply-to-everybody things, I d'know. Just...well...

Just be aware that Elestan is very much in the pro-PF / anti-Stardock camp.

I really have no interest in taking sides on that one. I've been curious about it, but my real interests are pretty darned self-centered: I wanna play a fun game (darn it!). I'd give a lot to have seen this conflict never happened, and for SCO to be SC3 (yeah, I know; that game would have been the real SC3, dammit!).

But that's not what we're getting and I've made peace with it...especially since what I have seen so far has made me go, "Ooooooh...!"

So, as I say, I have no interest in taking a side.

Reply #519 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 517
Just be aware that Elestan is very much in the pro-PF / anti-Stardock camp.  The reason he gets a hostile reception is that he tries to appear objective while being quite obviously not once you start to look into it.

Actually, I started in the pro-UQM (fan project) camp, but neutral (or even slightly pro-Stardock) on the P&F vs. Stardock spectrum.  You could find early posts from me calling out Paul for some hostile things I (mistakenly) thought he did.  But it's true that as I've watched the case develop and done my own reading on it, I've come to view P&F more favorably, and Stardock less so.  But I encourage everyone new to the case to consult sources from all sides.

There is a fan-made FAQ, but it has not had enough input from Stardock's side for me to try to claim it's neutrally balanced (though Stardock is welcome to contribute to it).  Regardless, there are a lot of links and references at the bottom for people inclined to do their own research.

Reply #520 Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 510


But the way I personally see it, Paul and his group made the game, which was then published with a prominent copyright attribution to Paul and Fred.  All of the other people involved surely were aware of this, and none of them raised a voice in disagreement.  For me, that's good enough to satisfy my sense of proper attribution and rights allocation.  We'll just have to see what the courts say about the legalities.

This is the problem with arguing topics where you do not have the facts. You simply make assumptions.  Let me give you an obvious example: You keep saying "Paul and Fred" but why do you assume that Fred would have any copyright over alien art? Why do you assume Paul does for that matter?  

You only know that they have no rights on the music because you have followed the topic close enough to know that.  You've just assumed that there was some sort of WFH agreement or other contract with the artists that gave them copyrights on the art in the game. 

Right now, the tentatively granted copyright is for the UQM source code (not even the DOS source code). But again, you didn't know that did you? You just saw a copyright registration and assumed it covered the things you want it to cover. That's called confirmation bias.

At the end of the day, Star Control fans want a new Star Control game.  They've been waiting a quarter-century for one. 

 

 

 

 

Reply #521 Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 519


Quoting Frogboy,
Just be aware that Elestan is very much in the pro-PF / anti-Stardock camp.  The reason he gets a hostile reception is that he tries to appear objective while being quite obviously not once you start to look into it.



Actually, I started in the pro-UQM (fan project) camp, but neutral (or even slightly pro-Stardock) on the P&F vs. Stardock spectrum.  You could find early posts from me calling out Paul for some hostile things I (mistakenly) thought he did.  But it's true that as I've watched the case develop and done my own reading on it, I've come to view P&F more favorably, and Stardock less so.  But I encourage everyone new to the case to consult sources from all sides.

There is a fan-made FAQ, but it has not had enough input from Stardock's side for me to try to claim it's neutrally balanced (though Stardock is welcome to contribute to it).  Regardless, there are a lot of links and references at the bottom for people inclined to do their own research.

I just don't believe you based on what you have said, Elestan.  

Like most fans, we would be delighted to see a new Star Control game from "the original creators".  We were publicly supportive of their announcement despite the fact that it was blatant trademark infringement (change Star Control to Coca-Cola and change the box of Star Control to a can of Coca-Cola and try to argue that Coca-Cola wouldn't drown you in lawyers).

That all changed when they refused to stop referring to their game as a direct sequel to Star Control II (or agree to license the trademark from us).  And yes, for the record, their attorney absolutely stated that they would continue to promote their game as a direct sequel and that they "expected resistance".

Then they began to meddling in our game marketing with negative public posts and negative PR and make sweeping claims of what their rights were including demands that we remove the ship designer and that the Earthling cruiser was too similar to theirs and complained about the Fleet Battles UI and so on.

And to make sure we understood the consequences of not obeying them, they issued DMCA notices to take down not just Star Control 1 and 2 but also SC3 which they didn't work on.  Now, you would argue that there were "copyrighted elements" in SC3.  Fine.  They were making the same claim on SCO despite those claims being absurd.

I can't see how anyone could argue that Stardock could do anything differently than it did.  Legally speaking, we have a former individual Accolade contractor issuing DMCA take down notices while claiming our new project violates his rights while he is simultaneously claiming he is making the "true sequel" to our franchise and refusing to talk to us. 

So no, I don't believe you were even open-minded Elestan.

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Reply #522 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 520

Quoting Elestan,


But the way I personally see it, Paul and his group made the game, which was then published with a prominent copyright attribution to Paul and Fred.  All of the other people involved surely were aware of this, and none of them raised a voice in disagreement.  For me, that's good enough to satisfy my sense of proper attribution and rights allocation.  We'll just have to see what the courts say about the legalities.


This is the problem with arguing topics where you do not have the facts. You simply make assumptions.  Let me give you an obvious example: You keep saying "Paul and Fred" but why do you assume that Fred would have any copyright over alien art? Why do you assume Paul does for that matter?

There's a reason that I started that paragraph with "the way I personally see it", and ended with "We'll just have to see what the courts say about the legalities".  I was expressing my own standards, not those that a court will use.

For me, if Paul, Fred, and the others go into a room, emerge a year later with a game, with "Copyright Paul Rieche III and Fred Ford" stamped on it, and everyone seems cool with it, then I don't personally feel the need to launch an inquiry into who drew which picture or wrote which line of dialogue.  That's doubly true when Greg Johnson, who was in that room, chimes in with statements like:

What I can and will say is that Paul and Fred created both of those games.  It was really the two of them, and others like me and Erol and whomever just contracted and did bits and pieces under Paul's direction.  This Universe, Story, Characters and Gameplay all come from the amazing mind of Paul.

As far as "getting the facts" goes, I consider this a pretty solid source.

Reply #523 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 521
I can't see how anyone could argue that Stardock could do anything differently than it did. [...] So no, I don't believe you were even [ever?] open-minded Elestan.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.  But your post is essentially asserting that anyone who comes to favor P&F in this dispute could not possibly be open-minded.  I would suggest that this would need to come from a more neutral source to be persuasive (for newcomers, Frogboy is Stardock's CEO).

To avoid getting into the weeds again on the legal minutiae, I'll just focus on one issue:

Until you back up your claim (first made in this email to Fred back in November) that you have exclusive control over Paul's copyright, it's very hard for me to blame them for reacting harshly; that's the moment when everything went sour between you.  They've provided some pretty compelling evidence against your claim in the Exhibits to their counterclaim, and you've provided nothing to counter that evidence except vague assertions about there being things we haven't seen.

If you want to start to swing my opinion back, show me what was behind the claim you made in that email.  Show me the records proving that Accolade and Atari paid royalties (or advances) to Paul to cover their obligations for every year since 1988, and how the anti-bankruptcy, anti-assignment, and 3-year termination clauses in Paul's contract did not apply.

If you want me to respond in detail to the other points you raise in your post, I'm happy to do so, but I'd want assurances that my replies won't get me banned for excessive "armchair lawyering".  Or we could just leave it be.

Reply #524 Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 523

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.  But your post is essentially asserting that anyone who comes to favor P&F in this dispute could not possibly be open-minded.  I would suggest that this would need to come from a more neutral source to be persuasive (for newcomers, Frogboy is Stardock's CEO).

No. I just don't think you are.

Until you back up your claim (first made in this email to Fred back in November) that you have exclusive control over Paul's copyright, it's very hard for me to blame them for reacting harshly;

And yet you blame us for reacting "harshly".

f you want to start to swing my opinion back, show me what was behind the claim you made in that email.

Our legal position came from providing the contract to legal counsel and receiving their legal opinion on it which was communicated to Paul and Fred.  At the time, the games had been sold on GOG since before we acquired the IP and the contracts transferred to us from Atari showed Atari having taken the position that they maintained all rights to sell, market and distribute the DOS games.  They also had the 2013 email in which I explicitly confirmed with Paul and Fred:

And repeated by Paul:

So there's your answer.  If they disagreed, that would have been the time to bring it up.  As in, 2013.

Moreover, regardless of what our private position was, they publicly "gored our ox" by literally using our trademark (complete with the (R)) and our box in announcing their game we didn't publicly "react harshly". 

And when they started making outrageous claims such as stating that Super-Melee was owned by them or that we needed to remove the ship designer and so on we didn't "react harshly". 

And when they publicly started to attack us in the press and on their blog we didn't "react harshly".

We only "reacted harshly" when they started issuing DMCAs + refused to stop referring to their game as the direct sequel to Star Control + began claiming our game that we have spent the last four years of our lives on, partially belongs to them with the threat of DMCA take-downs if we didn't do as they demand.  

 

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Reply #525 Top

By excluding it, P&F's ability to ever reuse the names and etc that were in the Star Control games was taken out of their hands. 

The UQM project was allowed to continue without Atari/Accolade's permission. I'm also really unclear why you think the UQM project avoided the name "Star Control" if not for trademark reasons. I'm really unclear why they would avoid the "Star Control" name but not any of the race names, if it was commonly understood that all of the races were also protected by trademark.

If you don't believe me that they avoided the name for Trademark purposes: http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/The_Ur-Quan_Masters_Project_FAQ#Why_is_this_called_.22The_Ur-Quan_Masters.22_instead_of_.22Star_Control_2.22.3F


I find the UQM community arguments amusing because the parallel argument would be that anyone can 100% copy every element that is associated with a trademarked good and it is perfectly acceptable as long as you don't label the good with the mark.

You're missing the key detail that the UQM project has a license to the copyright.


I can't see how anyone could argue that Stardock could do anything differently than it did.

I continue to find this one of the worst stances that Stardock has taken. If you want to argue that you did what you thought was best, and still think is best, that's one thing. But to not even realize that there's numerous other avenues you could have used to resolve this is... well, not reassuring.

Legally speaking, we have a former individual Accolade contractor issuing DMCA take down notices

Correction: You have the copyright owner filing a DMCA take down notice on their copyrighted work, which you were selling without the copyright holder's permission. Which is exactly the situation DMCA take down notices were invented to handle, and a completely appropriate use of them. The worst you could call this action is "brusque".

 while claiming our new project violates his rights

You did include unlicensed, copyrighted graphics in your previews for quite some time.