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Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Given the ongoing discussion of the legal dispute between Stardock and Paul Reiche and Fred Ford, designers of Star Control I and II, I wanted to take time to make Stardock's position clear and address inaccuracies that have been promoted.

As the need arises, I’ll continue to update this post with additional questions and answers.

Q: What are the issues in dispute?

A: On the eve of launch of the beta of Star Control: Origins in October 2017, a game Stardock has spent the past four years working on, Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford, the designers of Star Control II for Accolade 25 years ago announced a new game, Ghosts of the Precursors as a “direct” sequel to Star Control even going so far as to promote it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.

They did this despite knowing Stardock had acquired the Star Control IP in 2013 and knowing before hand our announcement schedule. Their actions created confusion in the market as to the origin of Star Control games which is why we have trademark laws. 

When Stardock asked that they cease and desist marketing their game as a sequel to Star Control they refused and began demanding that the sale of the DOS games, which had been on sale continuously since before Stardock acquired the IP and for which they had been receiving royalties for during the entire time cease and began to disparage Stardock publicly in the press. 

Despite Stardock's best efforts to reach a private, mutually beneficial co-existence agreement, Paul and Fred responded with increasingly hostile, misleading public attacks and served Steam and GOG with DMCA take-down notices on all of the classic DOS games, including Star Control 3 which they had no involvement with all while continuing to promote their new game as the "true" sequel to Star Control.

In addition, Paul Reiche and Fred Ford also began to claim that various features of Star Control: Origins violated their copyrights such as the ship designer, user interface similarities and other elements that are not subject to copyright protection (you can’t copyright an idea and Star Control itself was inspired by many other games). They also began to demand special access to Star Control: Origins to inspect it and demanded the removal of the ship designer,

As a result of their broad interpretation of what they believe they have rights to combined with their willingness to instruct their lawyers to issue a DMCA take down notices, even on titles in which they had no involvement in, combined with their refusal to cease promoting their game as the sequel to Star Control, Stardock was forced to file a complaint over their continuing trademark infringement.

In retaliation, Reiche and Ford filed a countersuit seeking to cancel the Star Control trademark and for copyright infringement due to the sale of the classic Star Control games on GOG and Steam and are even suing GOG despite the fact that Reiche and Ford were the ones who claim to have helped get the classic Star Control games onto GOG.

Q: Why did Stardock file the initial lawsuit against Paul and Fred?

A: We had no choice after Paul and Fred filed DMCA claims against the distribution not only of Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which they admit they had no involvement.  The DMCA claims were reversed, but it was clear that our ability to create more experiences in the Star Control multiverse for fans would be at risk if they are allowed to continue to misrepresent their new game as being associated with Star Control without a license while simultaneously making broad, unsupportable claims of ownership on ideas and concepts that are present not just in Star Control games but games in general.  

Q: How did these unfortunate events come to pass?

A: Here is a timeline of the order of events:

  1. Stardock acquires the Star Control brand, copyright to Star Control 3, the license to use the Star Control classic characters, lore and the right to distribute the classic DOS games.  The DOS games are already available on GOG  with Atari listed as the publisher. (2013)
  2. Stardock discuss plans for the new Star Control.  They state that their employment by Activision prevents them from working on a new Star Coxntrol game and request that we not use the aliens from Star Control 2 but do not contest Stardock's right to do so.  (2013)
  3. Upon learning that Activision has blocked their ability to be involved and that Paul and Fred hope to one day to continue their stories, Stardock offers to transfer its rights to Star Control to them, thus uniting the Star Control brand with Paul and Fred's licensed IP.  (2013)
  4. Paul and Fred ask what Stardock acquired from Atari to which Stardock responds: The trademark, assets to Star Control 3 and the right to sell distribute, market and promote the original trilogy.
  5. Paul acknowledges Stardock's position and asks how much it cost.
  6. Paul and Fred politely decline the offer to acquire the Star Control IP. (2013)
  7. Stardock announces a reboot of Star Control and explicitly states that it will not include the characters from the classic series out of respect for Paul and Fred. (2013)
  8. Stardock spends the next 4 years and millions of dollars developing Star Control: Origins. (2013-2017)
  9. Stardock provides Paul and Fred regular updates on progress including video of pre-alpha footage, design notes, screenshots.  Relations are amicable and supportive. (2013-2017)
  10. Stardock updates Paul and Fred on Star Control: Origins release schedule and begins planning its 25th anniversary which will include releasing the classic games onto more channels.  Stardock asks if there would be any interest in having SC2 ships appear in Super-Melee. The games are submitted and approved by Steam in preparation (Summer 2017).
  11. Paul and Fred contact Stardock to inform them that they will be announcing a new game that will utilize the characters from their universe.  (Fall 2017)
  12. Stardock is both pleased and concerned about the timing of their plan, points out the licensing agreement would allow Stardock to use their IP (albeit at a higher royalty than Stardock was hoping for). Stardock asks that they coordinate these announcements together ensure there is no confusion and about the games appearing competitive. (Fall 2017)   
  13. Paul and Fred state they plan to make a sequel to Star Control II which would violate Stardock's trademark rights (you can't claim your product is a sequel to another company's product).  Paul and Fred also assert that Stardock does not have a license to their IP.
  14. In the email below Paul and Fred state that each party should work within its respective rights: Stardock having the Star Control trademarks and Paul and Fred owning all the IP rights to the works they created. Note that at this point, Paul and Fred recognized that owning the registration to the Star Control trademark also includes many common law trademarks. Hence "trademarks" plural.
  15. Stardock responds stating that as far as Stardock is aware, while Paul and Fred own the IP they created, Stardock does have an active licensing agreement that controls how that IP can and can't be used.  Stardock also reiterates that it has not used this license out of respect for Paul and Fred. (October 2017)
  16. Stardock states its concern at the idea of Paul and Fred representing their game as a "direct sequel", asks to schedule a call to discuss.  Note that at this point, Brad, like many, is under the impression that Paul and Fred essentially created Star Control on their own, a two-man team with licensed music was not uncommon thing back in 1992 (Stardock later re-evaluates that position after learning that the project had a large budget for 1990 and immense talent on it). (October 2017)
  17. Paul and Fred respond that they simply don't agree but provide no evidence as to why the licensing agreement would have expired. (October 2017)
  18. Stardock provides its reviewed legal position.  Stardock isn't using any IP from the classic games other than the right to market and sell them as they have been for several years.  (October 2017)
  19. Stardock points out that it has a license to the IP to use provided it pays a royalty of 10% (which is why Stardock has asked in the past for a new licensing agreement as 10% is too much for a cameo of a classic character). Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell suggests talking on the phone to iron things out. (October 2017).
  20. Email includes proposal:
  21. Paul and Fred refuse Stardock's proposal and begin to demand changes to Star Control: Origins.
  22. Paul and Fred, knowing the date Stardock was planning to announce the Fleet Battles beta, preemptively announce Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control II; use the Star Control II box (which is owned by Stardock) as the only art on the page for it; promote it to the media and to social media as the "true" sequel to Star Control.  (October)
  23. Despite having just stated that their efforts should be "separated" by each parties rights (Stardock with the trademarks) Paul and Fred almost immediately violate that understanding by using the Star Control trademarks throughout their announcement.
  24. The Star Control trademark is mentioned 4 times in the announcement, each with an (R) without mentioning Stardock leading a reasonable consumer to believe it is their mark (Ghosts of the Precursors is listed once). 
  25. Paul and Fred claim they "released" Star Control II on the same page that shows Star Control II with the Accolade mark misleading the relationship between Accolade and Paul and Fred (who, regardless of their tremendous work, were contracted by Accolade to create content that was then licensed into Accolade's product).
  26. The media follow-up by referring to it as "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors". (October)
  27. Paul and Fred promote the idea that it's Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors and not its own game:
  28. The above is one example among dozens.
  29. Paul and Fred publicize coverage of their new game with each post using the Star Control mark but not a single one using the term "Ghosts of the Precursors".  Looking below, what's the name of their new game?
  30. Many posts and articles appear, endorsed by Paul and Fred that state that their new game is a "direct sequel" to Star Control.  Some refer to it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.
  31. Stardock moves forward on its 25th anniversary plans, release the beta of Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles beta and relaunches the classic DOS games for the 25th anniversary on Steam. (October)
  32. Paul and Fred's attorney contacts Stardock's CEO.  This is the first time lawyers have been involved.  Lawyers take over. (October)
  33. Paul and Fred begin to demand that Stardock begin policing the Star Control community for fan art that they believe violates their rights (including members of this forum and on Steam). (October)
  34. Paul and Fred begin demanding the removal of features from Star Control: Origins including the ship designer (a feature that has been part of Stardock's games for over a decade). (October)
  35. Paul and Fred begin demanding insider builds of Star Control: Origins for inspection and begin insisting various broad features are their property despite having no right to do so. (October)
  36. Paul and Fred reject numerous attempts to create a co-existence agreement that would permit Ghosts of the Precursors to go forward independently.   (November)
  37. Paul and Fred insist they have the right to associate their game with Stardock's trademarks including referring to their game as the "true" sequel to Star Control. (November)
  38. Paul and Fred demand that the DOS games be removed from distribution while still providing no evidence to support their claim that the agreement had expired. (November)
  39. Paul and Fred begin to make public defamatory blog posts and tweets about Stardock. (December)
  40. Paul and Fred file DMCA notices against Steam and GOG not just for Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which Stardock holds the federally registered copyright for and that Paul and Fred had no involvement in. (December)
  41. Stardock's attorneys file a suit against Paul and Fred for trademark infringement and other causes of action. (December)
  42. Paul and Fred's attorney files a lawsuit against Stardock alleging copyright infringement and other causes of action. (February).
  43. Paul and Fred's PR firm releases a press release to the wire services accusing Stardock of "copyright theft" do press interviews attacking Stardock. (February)
  44. This post is initially made. (February)
  45. Paul and Fred post an email exchange they claim is between themselves and Atari, something they had not shown to Stardock and still have not provided to Stardock to evaluate. 
  46. Paul and Fred post what they claim is a Stardock settlement proposal in violation of federal rule 408. Stardock denies the accuracy. (March)
  47. Paul and Fred's PR firm targets Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell personally on Twitter for abuse with an inflammatory and completely inaccurate social media post. (March)
  48. Paul and Fred like a tweet that purports that these activities have cost Stardock up to 50% of potential sales and may lead to review bombing of the final game:  (March)
  49. To make clear that Stardock's concern is regarding the protection of its Star Control IP and not the sales of Star Control: Ur-Quan Masters, it decides that it will be suspend sales of the classic games until the dispute is resolved starting April 4. (March 2018).

Q: Don't Paul and Fred contend that the 1988 licensing agreement with Accolade has expired?

A: That is their position.  However, since the dispute began, Stardock has chosen to err on the side of caution and operate as if that is the case.   Stardock requested that GOG and Steam remove the games for sale pending a resolution.  The 1988 agreement, however, does not have anything to do with the Star Control trademarks were were always owned by Accolade and were assigned to Stardock.   

Stardock's ownership of the Star Control trademark is incontestable.  You can review the federal registration that dates back to the 1990s here.

Q: But isn't it true that Star Control: Origins has very similar gameplay to Star Control II? That you explore planets, travel through hyperspace to different star systems, meet with aliens? Couldn't their copyright of Star Control II mean that Star Control: Origins is too similar?

A: You cannot copyright an idea.  Putting aside that Star Control itself borrowed many ideas from many other games, copyright protects creative expression. Not game play.  

There are articles you can read that discuss this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_clone 

https://venturebeat.com/2013/03/16/defeating-mobile-game-clones-why-copyright-protection-is-not-enough/ 

https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/11752/is-it-legally-possible-to-make-a-clone-of-the-game 

Obviously, anyone who has ever played Angry Birds or Candy Crunch already knows this.

That said, Star Control: Origins is not a clone of Star Control II.  The 25-year gap in game technology allows Star Control: Origins to deliver a much richer experience.  So while the core concepts remain true: You are the captain of a starship traveling through this part of the galaxy, meeting aliens, engaging in battles, exploring planets, the implementation is very different.

In short: Gameplay clones aren't illegal and even if it were illegal, Star Control: Origins is not a clone. 

 

Q: Why does Stardock claim that Paul and Fred were not the creators of Star Control?

A: Paul and Fred were the designers of Star Control I and II.  In the credits, on the box and elsewhere they had previously officially listed themselves as either developers or designers.  

While Stardock has no objection to “creators” in the casual sense, legally, and when trying to promote a product in commerce, they are not. Most of the Copyrighted material people think of as being important to Star Control was created and owned by others. 

For 25 years, Designer was their official designation.   

It is Stardock's opinion that they have begun to focus on referring to themselves as "creators" in their marketing in order to give the impression that Ghosts of the Precursors would have the the same creative core as Star Control II.   This is not the case.

What most people do not realize is Star Control II had, in essence, the dream Sci-Fi team as mentioned in this 25th anniversary tribute. The lead animator went on to lead the animation at Pixar and is the director of the Minions movies.  Many of the alien designs were created by the artist who went on to design Darth Maul and other Star Wars and Marvel movie characters.  Many of the most quoted lines came from seasoned Sci-Fi writers.  The engaging music was created by others.

We respect Paul and Fred’s crucial contributions as well as the rest of the talented team who worked on Star Control.  

Q: Who owns the Star Control trademark?

A: Stardock is the legal owner of the federally registered trademark for Star Control.  You can view it here. https://www.trademarkia.com/star-control-75095591.html 

Q: What does Stardock want out of this lawsuit?  

A:  Our ONLY goal is to protect our ability to tell more stories in the Star Control multiverse.  We remain fans of Paul and Fred and their contributions to Star Control.  However, given the confusion they’ve created in the market by promoting their new game as a “true sequel” to Star Control II combined with their abuse of the DMCA system to take down even Star Control games they had no involvement with, we are forced to act to prevent them from continuing to create confusion.   

Consider some of your favorite games or movies. Now imagine if someone instrumental to the development of that game or movie went on to claim to be making a sequel to that game or movie without the consent of the owners of that trademark? What would be the result?

Q: But doesn't Paul and Fred own all the in-game IP?

A: Paul and Fred own whatever IP they created.  What that is remains to be seen. Stardock does not claim to own any copyrighted material within Star Control II which is why the new Star Control: Origins is set in its own universe with its own characters and story.

However, as of April 2018, neither Paul or Fred had any rights to any of the art and much of the writing in Star Control II. However, even if they did, it would be irrelevant as Stardock isn't using any copyrighted material from Star Control 1, 2, or 3 in the new Star Control games.

On the trademark side, simply because you were contracted to work on a game does not grant you the right to make a new game and claim it is related regardless of what copyrights you think you may own (otherwise, you could argue that Unity and Epic could start to make sequels to other people's games).

For example, Paul Reiche is the President of an Activision studio.  Blizzard is another Activision studio.  Stardock was once contracted to develop a StarCraft expansion (StarCraft: Retribution). One can imagine the response Stardock would receive it it were to announce a new game as a "direct sequel" to StarCraft: Retribution.

By contrast, not only did Paul and Fred announce their new game as a "direct" and later "true" sequel to Star Control, they even used the Star Control II box, that was acquired by Stardock, to promote it.

As much as we respect Paul and Fred, the fact is, Paul Reiche was contracted as an independent contractor (not as a company) by Accolade to develop Star Control for Accolade.  This is a fairly routine method that developers get products made (Stardock's own Fences, WindowBlinds, Groupy, IconPackager, etc. were developed using the same method).

Q: Do these legal issues have any impact on Star Control: Origins?

A: UPDATE:

Apparently yes.  Despite Star Control: Origins having nothing to do with Reiche and Ford's games, they have filed DMCA take down notices to Steam and GOG to take down Star Control: Origins.  They claim (with not specificity) that they own copyrights in Star Control: Origins

Game sites don't make legal judgments on the merits.  They simply remove the content.  No one, to our knowledge, has ever tried to do this on a shipping game before.  

You can read our response here.

 

Q: Why did Stardock trademark Ur-Quan Masters, Super Melee, and other names from the original games? 

A: Once Paul and Fred began to challenge the validity of our intellectual property we were forced to take steps to solidify our common law rights. Specifically, Paul and Fred have worked to try to separate Stardock's Star Control mark from its association with the classic games.  

The reason companies were bidding to acquire the Star Control trademarks and willing to pay $300,000 for it was for the association with the classic series.  The trademarks, being in active use in connection with the beloved classic series, made it valuable.  

When Paul and Fred began to seek to cancel the Star Control mark and make public statements that Star Control: Origins isn't related to the classic series Stardock felt obligated to respond by reinforcing its intellectual property rights to the classic series.  

As background: Stardock always had the common law trademark to Ur-Quan Masters. It's the sub-title to Star Control II after all and was, by Paul and Fred's admission, available in commerce on GOG even before Stardock was involved. Super-Melee is literally a promoted feature from Star Control. The alien names are so strongly associated with Star Control that if you Google Star Control aliens they come up as the first entry.  

They have made it very clear that they believe that they have the right to associate their new game with Star Control on the basis that they have previously licensed content to Star Control games. They have no such right.

Q: Why did Stardock really need to trademark the Star Control 2 alien names?

A: Star Control fans expect new Star Control games to have the Spathi, Ur-Quan, Orz, etc.   We originally chose not to include them in Star Control: Origins in deference to Paul and Fred who asked us not to.  

However, in December 2017, Paul and Fred posted:

This creates confusion because Stardock alone owns the Star Control universe. That doesn’t mean it owns any lore or stories created by others. It just means that Stardock has the right to determine what is canon in the Star Control universe.  

The Star Control aliens are associated with Star Control. That doesn’t mean Stardock can use expressions and stories of those aliens without permission. But it does mean Stardock has the right to create its own stories and expressions for the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc.

When Paul and Fred were contracted to develop Star Control I and Star Control II for Accolade, they were allowed to keep certain copyrights to the works they created. But all trademarks were explicitly defined as being owned by Accolade. 

Incidentally, their name was put into a diagram because they literally announced their game as a sequel to Star Control II.  They associated their new game with Star Control, not the other way around.

Q: Is Stardock trying to prevent Paul and Fred from making new games in their universe?

A: No.  Stardock wants them to create new games in the universe they created.  However, this needs to be handled in such a way that there is no confusion as to the relationship between Star Control and the works they licensed for Star Control II.

Q: If Stardock wants a new game from Paul and Fred, why did the settlement offer that Paul and Fred publicly posted that they claim came from Stardock demand that they "surrender" their IP?

A: It is regrettable that Paul and Fred chose to violate confidentiality and post, without context, a settlement offer.  Paul and Fred have been offered many settlement proposals with many different terms and are intended for negotiation by both parties to try to reach an amicable settlement.

Stardock paid over $300,000 for the Star acontrol IP which included the trademark and copyright to Star a Control 3. The Star Control brand is, in our view, far more valuable than any copyrighted material within a 25 year old DOS game. Source code and alien art. Nothing else, as far as we can discern, falls under copyright protection. You can’t copyright “lore” or timelines, or alien names, or game designs or UI.  

Thus, all we would gain would be the ability to have Ur-Quan that look just like the old Ur-Quan and space ships that look like the classic space ships. The greater value would be to make sure this kind of dispute didn’t happen again. But that value would still not overcome the damage they’ve caused in the market place due to the confusion on who owns Star Control and the ill will due to their PR company issuing false and misleading press releases and publicizing the dispute in a way to maximize ill will. Not to mention the considerable and rising legal costs.

None of this would prevent Paul and Fred from making a new game if that really is their desire. Stardock, in turn, would have been happy to license, free of charge, any IP they needed to make their new game.

Our respect for the work Paul and Fred did 25 years ago remains undiminished.  However, that respect does not give them the right to disrupt our product development at the 11th hour or misrepresent their new endeavors as the "true" sequel to our products.

Our dedication to bringing you a new Star Control game remains unchanged.  BETA 2 of Star Control: Origins is due in a few weeks.

For those interested in reading the details, our complete initial filing available online:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385277-Stardock-Legal-Complaint-2635-000-P-2017-12-08-1.html

Stardock 25th anniversary post documenting the creation of Star Control:

https://www.stardock.com/games/article/485810/star-control-ii-25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants  

 


Thank you for being fans of Star Control, and supporting our effort to make a great new game in the Star Control franchise.

And if you have questions that you’d like to see added to this post, feel free to reach out to me directly via Twitter at @kevinunangst

Kevin Unangst

Vice President, Marketing and Strategic Partnerships

Stardock Entertainment

1,790,118 views 728 replies
Reply #551 Top

Quoting Astrobia, reply 550

Frogs are less useful in a fight... Yes yes, there are dart frogs. But venomous minions are still more useful than poisonous ones.

With this obsession with fighting, it's easy to see that this is a video gamers' community. ;)

Quoting Astrobia, reply 548

Frogboy is well known for his bee handling: 

If I had been in that room, I would have run away like crazy.

Reply #552 Top

Quoting PRHMro, reply 551


Quoting Astrobia,

Frogs are less useful in a fight... Yes yes, there are dart frogs. But venomous minions are still more useful than poisonous ones.



With this obsession with fighting, it's easy to see that this is a video gamers' community. ;)

Or you know... Comic books, Movies, Sports... LARPing.

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Reply #553 Top

Frogboy is well known for his bee handling

I...was not aware of that.

Reply #554 Top

I keep watching that video and wondering how on earth did did not get stung.....

Reply #555 Top

Quoting Taslios, reply 554

I keep watching that video and wondering how on earth did did not get stung.....

The secret there is picking the right bees. Specifically male bees

Reply #556 Top

BEES.
MY GOD. 

Reply #558 Top

...aaand P&F are now asking for money from fans. Seems like Stardock's marathon strategy is working.

They need USD 2M. That's. A. Lot. For lawyer fees.

IMO, that money should be used to develop the game, not feed the lawyers. It's so sad to see this dispute being won by whichever party has the financial clout.

Reply #559 Top

It's so sad to see this dispute being won by whichever party has the financial clout.

Especially since they could so easily be giving that money to me.

 

I would gladly accept it. 

You know...in the name of ending the conflict.

Reply #560 Top

Quoting tingkagol, reply 558

...aaand P&F are now asking for money from fans. Seems like Stardock's marathon strategy is working.

They need USD 2M. That's. A. Lot. For lawyer fees.

IMO, that money should be used to develop the game, not feed the lawyers. It's so sad to see this dispute being won by whichever party has the financial clout.

What "marathon" strategy?

In what world is it unreasonable for a company to expect its competitors not to use its trademarks to compete with it? 

No one is stopping them from making their game.  No one is stealing credit from them.  

If Paul and Fred want to make a game that continues their story, great! Go ahead. Do it. Just don't promote yourself as the sequel to Star Control. 

For guys whose day job is literally making the remake of Spyro the Dragon, which is itself IP whose creation they had nothing to do with and was acquired by Activision, you'd think they'd have some appreciation that you can't just use other people's IP without licensing it.

Super-short version of how things could have gone down:

Stardock: Please agree not to promote your game as a sequel to Star Control.

Paul and Fred: Ok.

No lawsuit, no need for multi-millionaires to ask fans to fund their "defense" that is, in essence, a demand that they can promote their game as the "direct" or "true" sequel to Star Control.

 

Reply #561 Top

I think Paul & Fred are creative geniuses and SC2 is may favorite game of all time. But no way I'd help with their legal fees. You can't ask for charity when the objective is to make a for-profit game. Hell, the money isn't even contributing to game development.

They should swallow their pride and let Stardock use some of their IP in exchange for Stardock letting them use the SC Trademark. From the impression I get, I think Stardock would be on board for an arrangement like that.

Let the two studios make their own games. The fans aren't idiots - we'll get that they are in their own universes and are smart enough to decide which games we are interested in playing.

 

Reply #562 Top

Quoting shusain1, reply 561

I think Paul & Fred are creative geniuses and SC2 is may favorite game of all time. But no way I'd help with their legal fees. You can't ask for charity when the objective is to make a for-profit game. Hell, the money isn't even contributing to game development.

They should swallow their pride and let Stardock use some of their IP in exchange for Stardock letting them use the SC Trademark. From the impression I get, I think Stardock would be on board for an arrangement like that.

Let the two studios make their own games. The fans aren't idiots - we'll get that they are in their own universes and are smart enough to decide which games we are interested in playing.

 

We don't even want to use their IP (our desire to license any IP from them ended when we discovered what a mess the SC2 copyrights are).  We just want them to agree to quit promoting their game (now and in the future) as the sequel to Star Control.   

It's a shame the gaming media can't do investigative journalism anymore and call them on what they're doing. It's all cheap page clicks now.

Reply #563 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 560

Super-short version of how things could have gone down:

Stardock: Please agree not to promote your game as a sequel to Star Control.

Paul and Fred: Ok.

No lawsuit, no need for multi-millionaires to ask fans to fund their "defense" that is, in essence, a demand that they can promote their game as the "direct" or "true" sequel to Star Control.

I'm sorry, but given Stardock's current stance on what the SC trademark protects,  a revised history of events without the announcement "GotP is the direct sequel to SC2" but still announcing a game that has the UrQuan, Spathi, Orz, etc still leads me to believe Stardock will have a problem with it. Perhaps not if 5 years have elapsed from SCO's release?

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Reply #564 Top

Quoting tingkagol, reply 563

I'm sorry, but given Stardock's current stance on what the SC trademark protects,  a revised history of events without the announcement "GotP is the direct sequel to SC2" but still announcing a game that has the UrQuan, Spathi, Orz, etc still leads me to believe Stardock will have a problem with it. Perhaps not if 5 years have elapsed from SCO's release?

We'll never know now.  PF are pretty aggressive about their own IP.  Their actions have required us to become similarly vigorous in protecting ours.

Reply #565 Top

Well, I still say that the real losers in all this are the players, the ones who wanted a proper sequel to SC2.

 

And I find it rather difficult to blame Stardock for not giving us one; I gather they'd love to, were it feasible.

Reply #566 Top

Quoting BionicDance, reply 565

Well, I still say that the real losers in all this are the players, the ones who wanted a proper sequel to SC2.

 

And I find it rather difficult to blame Stardock for not giving us one; I gather they'd love to, were it feasible.

And there is nothing preventing them from continuing their story.  Not being able to market it as a Star Control game unless they have a license to do so is not a legitimate obstacle.

I'd love to be able to market games as sequels to well known titles.  Not having the right to do so doesn't make the rights holder the villain.

Reply #567 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 562

We just want them to agree to quit promoting their game (now and in the future) as the sequel to Star Control.

What exactly do you mean by them "quitting promoting the game as the sequel to Star Control"? If that means forcing them to rename the classic races, I don't think that would be an option to any UQM fans. The only real option is keeping the original lore and names, whether it means them having to enter into a licensing agreement with you or not.

I have actually tried to ask Paul why he isn't willing to consider entering into the licensing agreement with Stardock, but the response I got was very vague and not particularly reassuring (although that depends a lot on what he meant by "prevailing"):

We know this is painfully frustrating for you and all our game's fans, but we are confident that when we get our day in court, we will prevail.  A lot. Until then, please hang in there, PRH!

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Reply #568 Top

And there is nothing preventing them from continuing their story.  Not being able to market it as a Star Control game unless they have a license to do so is not a legitimate obstacle.

Well, maybe my history is off, but I got the impression that, when Stardock first got their hands on the Star Control series, you guys wanted to do a sequel. Like, "Let's ignore SC3 and pick up where SC2 left off," or something like that.

I got that idea from quotes like this: "our desire to license any IP from them ended when we discovered what a mess the SC2 copyrights are."

And I think there were other quotes in this thread (that'd be too difficult to go digging for), but I gathered that we're getting "Star Control Origins" instead of "Star Control 3 (For Real This Time!)" because P&F got super-protective of what parts of Star Control they still own instead of letting Stardock go ahead with the ships and aliens and lore from SC2. (And, I mean, I can kind of understand that, you spend a lot of time making a story, you have ideas for it and places you'd want to take it...it has to be hard to let go!)

But that's hardly Stardock's fault or doing, which is why I can't blame you guys for SCO not being SC3(FRTT).

 

...if that makes any sense at all.

 
Reply #569 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 562

We don't even want to use their IP (our desire to license any IP from them ended when we discovered what a mess the SC2 copyrights are).  We just want them to agree to quit promoting their game (now and in the future) as the sequel to Star Control.   

It's a shame the gaming media can't do investigative journalism anymore and call them on what they're doing. It's all cheap page clicks now.

But I'd wager you'd probably like to be able to use their races in future installments / DLC / sequels without having to go to court, spending legal fees with no guarantee of a positive outcome. And they'd like to be able to market their game as a sequel to SC2.

 

Reply #570 Top

Well, maybe my history is off, but I got the impression that, when Stardock first got their hands on the Star Control series, you guys wanted to do a sequel. Like, "Let's ignore SC3 and pick up where SC2 left off," or something like that.

That idea only existed on the premise that Paul and Fred were going to be apart of it.  Stardock trying to continue the SC2 story would be no more legitimate, IMO, than SC3 from Legend.  

What exactly do you mean by them "quitting promoting the game as the sequel to Star Control"? If that means forcing them to rename the classic races, I don't think that would be an option to any UQM fans. The only real option is keeping the original lore and names, whether it means them having to enter into a licensing agreement with you or not.

I have actually tried to ask Paul why he isn't willing to consider entering into the licensing agreement with Stardock, but the response I got was very vague and not particularly reassuring (although that depends a lot on what he meant by "prevailing"):

I'm not sure what "prevailing" means here.  If they think they have the right to promote their game as the sequel to their competitor's then they are in for some rough times.   

 

Reply #571 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 566

And there is nothing preventing them from continuing their story.

I'm not defending P&F (you know me better than that) but this is the sticking point that a lot of the P&F fans are getting stuck on, and it stems from that settlement proposal where Stardock proposed P&F couldn't develop another Starcon-like game within 5 years of SCO.

I know that develop in software development terms means something different from what laypeople think, and it really meant they couldn't release one (but could certainly work on it) but that's not how it reads to the ordinary person, and it's not how P&F are happily portraying to people as being your stance.

Reply #572 Top

That idea only existed on the premise that Paul and Fred were going to be apart of it.

Oh. Drat.

Was that ever even a possibility that they were willing to entertain?

Stardock trying to continue the SC2 story would be no more legitimate, IMO, than SC3 from Legend.

I bet it'd be taken that way by the fans if it was up to SC2 quality...or better.

I mean, the main reason most people don't consider SC3 to be canon is because it was crap; it didn't live up to the game that came before, much less improve on it. And they changed too much.

Given what I've seen of Origins so far, it's clear to me that Stardock's team loved SC2 and are trying to live up to the same standard while updating it for the possibilities offered by today's advanced tech. So if you lot had decided to make SC3, chances are good that many fans would have considered it canon no matter what the official description might've been.

'Course, you guys mighta fouled up, too; I can't say. But, as I say, what I've seen so far makes me confident that would not have been so.

Reply #573 Top

Quoting bleybourne, reply 571


Quoting Frogboy,

And there is nothing preventing them from continuing their story.



I'm not defending P&F (you know me better than that) but this is the sticking point that a lot of the P&F fans are getting stuck on, and it stems from that settlement proposal where Stardock proposed P&F couldn't develop another Starcon-like game within 5 years of SCO.

I know that develop in software development terms means something different from what laypeople think, and it really meant they couldn't release one (but could certainly work on it) but that's not how it reads to the ordinary person, and it's not how P&F are happily portraying to people as being your stance.

And that is why posting, without context, without any background, one of the many proposals sent back and forth was so dishonorable.  What's worse, because of that stunt, the judge ordered no more public postings regarding confidential settlement discussions.  So we couldn't even post the myriad of other proposals in response to their cherry picked one or some of the outrageous things they've claimed.

So instead, let me walk you through a more generic view on how these things go "in real life".

You have a series of sliders that together form value X.

  1. Money
  2. Assets
  3. Time

If I gore your ox, how do I make restitution to you?  I can pay you money. I can give you something of like value. I can give you my time.

So you start going back and forth on those sliders.  What if I have no assets of value? Then your slider is mostly going to be money and time.   

Now, in this process you and I would probably negotiate (as opposed to short-circuiting everything and posting it to the Internet and then ask fans to pay the legal bills).  

Maybe instead of giving you 5 years I negotiate it down to 3 years or 4 years or 2 years or whatever.  

In this case the question is, how long would it take someone to make a game like this?  It's taken us 5 years.  Maybe someone else could do it in 4 or 3.  I doubt less than 3 even if you used Unity. 

So I'd negotiate with you for 3 years time because of said ox goring knowing that it's going to take me 3 years anyway to finish my game.  The 3 years are up and voila, I have my game and ready to go into high gear.

And mind you, that's just one of many possibilities.  If there wasn't a court order in place, I could walk you through several other iterations that, depending on your point of view, would sound horrendous or generous depending on whether you value money, assets or time more.

Now that Paul and Fred are asking for fans to give them $2 million so that they can promote their game as the sequel to Star Control (because don't lose sight on what the actual suit is, none of this would have happened if they didn't insist they have some divine right to promote their new game as the true sequel to Star Control even though they have never had any rights whatsoever to the trademark).

Here's one more thing to consider: Would you say Paul and Fred have created an environment where the parties might amicably come together and work something out? OR... have they say, hired a PR firm to call us liars and thieves and compared us (literally) with evil space aliens and google bombed my search results out of sheer malice?  And now they want someone else to pay for it.

Reply #574 Top

Quoting BionicDance, reply 572

That idea only existed on the premise that Paul and Fred were going to be apart of it.
Oh. Drat.

Was that ever even a possibility that they were willing to entertain?

Yes.  At the very start, back in 2013, we talked about working together and they talked to the lawyers at Activision who said they could not work on an outside project.  

I bet it'd be taken that way by the fans if it was up to SC2 quality...or better.

I mean, the main reason most people don't consider SC3 to be canon is because it was crap; it didn't live up to the game that came before, much less improve on it. And they changed too much.

Given what I've seen of Origins so far, it's clear to me that Stardock's team loved SC2 and are trying to live up to the same standard while updating it for the possibilities offered by today's advanced tech. So if you lot had decided to make SC3, chances are good that many fans would have considered it canon no matter what the official description might've been.

'Course, you guys mighta fouled up, too; I can't say. But, as I say, what I've seen so far makes me confident that would not have been so.

I can't speak for fans.  But *I* wouldn't consider it canon. I would consider it fan fiction.   I'm the guy who was such a fan that I authorized the spending of millions to revive the franchise.  I know the SC2 lore inside and out but I could not tell you, for example, the true nature of the Orz or what really happened to the Androsynth.

I'm glad you're liking SCO.  But the credit really goes to the fans and in particular, the founders group who have been all over us every step (in a good way).

The goal was to take the essence of what makes Star Control...Star Control and then expand on it.  The planet exploration system being a spherical world that still takes about the same time to explore but is far less grindy, having a truly living universe where our multicore AI is simulating all the civilizations much like you would have in a strategy game except of course you are just in command of a single ship, multiplayer fleet battles, assault defend modes, ship design, etc. And of course...the writing.  THE STORY.

Star Control is not simply a game.  It is an escape.  It is interactive fiction. You are the Captain.  You are given a mission that, on the surface seems tropey but you soon find out that the universe is a lot more complicated than it first appears. 

But that only works if you know the whole story from front to back.  I know the SC2 lore inside and out.  I can tell you who the Gg were.  I can tell you which of the Zoq-Fot-Pik like Frungy the least.  But I only know what Paul and Fred have told me.  Thus, me trying to continue their story would be nothing more than fan fiction as far as I'm concerned.

With Star Control: Origins, we've had five years to think about it.  We even have a prequel book already published on the backstory of the Lexites. We have our own stories to tell.   Because, imo, that's what Star Control is for.  Telling stories.  It provides an escape.  And for that, I love it.

 

Reply #575 Top

*looks at book*

*looks at franchise*

Okay, this took a rather unexpected turn.