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Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

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Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

from StarControl Forums

Given the ongoing discussion of the legal dispute between Stardock and Paul Reiche and Fred Ford, designers of Star Control I and II, I wanted to take time to make Stardock's position clear and address inaccuracies that have been promoted.

As the need arises, I’ll continue to update this post with additional questions and answers.

Q: What are the issues in dispute?

A: On the eve of launch of the beta of Star Control: Origins in October 2017, a game Stardock has spent the past four years working on, Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford, the designers of Star Control II for Accolade 25 years ago announced a new game, Ghosts of the Precursors as a “direct” sequel to Star Control even going so far as to promote it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.

They did this despite knowing Stardock had acquired the Star Control IP in 2013 and knowing before hand our announcement schedule. Their actions created confusion in the market as to the origin of Star Control games which is why we have trademark laws. 

When Stardock asked that they cease and desist marketing their game as a sequel to Star Control they refused and began demanding that the sale of the DOS games, which had been on sale continuously since before Stardock acquired the IP and for which they had been receiving royalties for during the entire time cease and began to disparage Stardock publicly in the press. 

Despite Stardock's best efforts to reach a private, mutually beneficial co-existence agreement, Paul and Fred responded with increasingly hostile, misleading public attacks and served Steam and GOG with DMCA take-down notices on all of the classic DOS games, including Star Control 3 which they had no involvement with all while continuing to promote their new game as the "true" sequel to Star Control.

In addition, Paul Reiche and Fred Ford also began to claim that various features of Star Control: Origins violated their copyrights such as the ship designer, user interface similarities and other elements that are not subject to copyright protection (you can’t copyright an idea and Star Control itself was inspired by many other games). They also began to demand special access to Star Control: Origins to inspect it and demanded the removal of the ship designer,

As a result of their broad interpretation of what they believe they have rights to combined with their willingness to instruct their lawyers to issue a DMCA take down notices, even on titles in which they had no involvement in, combined with their refusal to cease promoting their game as the sequel to Star Control, Stardock was forced to file a complaint over their continuing trademark infringement.

In retaliation, Reiche and Ford filed a countersuit seeking to cancel the Star Control trademark and for copyright infringement due to the sale of the classic Star Control games on GOG and Steam and are even suing GOG despite the fact that Reiche and Ford were the ones who claim to have helped get the classic Star Control games onto GOG.

Q: Why did Stardock file the initial lawsuit against Paul and Fred?

A: We had no choice after Paul and Fred filed DMCA claims against the distribution not only of Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which they admit they had no involvement.  The DMCA claims were reversed, but it was clear that our ability to create more experiences in the Star Control multiverse for fans would be at risk if they are allowed to continue to misrepresent their new game as being associated with Star Control without a license while simultaneously making broad, unsupportable claims of ownership on ideas and concepts that are present not just in Star Control games but games in general.  

Q: How did these unfortunate events come to pass?

A: Here is a timeline of the order of events:

  1. Stardock acquires the Star Control brand, copyright to Star Control 3, the license to use the Star Control classic characters, lore and the right to distribute the classic DOS games.  The DOS games are already available on GOG  with Atari listed as the publisher. (2013)
  2. Stardock discuss plans for the new Star Control.  They state that their employment by Activision prevents them from working on a new Star Coxntrol game and request that we not use the aliens from Star Control 2 but do not contest Stardock's right to do so.  (2013)
  4. Upon learning that Activision has blocked their ability to be involved and that Paul and Fred hope to one day to continue their stories, Stardock offers to transfer its rights to Star Control to them, thus uniting the Star Control brand with Paul and Fred's licensed IP.  (2013)
  6. Paul and Fred ask what Stardock acquired from Atari to which Stardock responds: The trademark, assets to Star Control 3 and the right to sell distribute, market and promote the original trilogy.
  8. Paul acknowledges Stardock's position and asks how much it cost.
  10. Paul and Fred politely decline the offer to acquire the Star Control IP. (2013)
  11. Stardock announces a reboot of Star Control and explicitly states that it will not include the characters from the classic series out of respect for Paul and Fred. (2013)
  12. Stardock spends the next 4 years and millions of dollars developing Star Control: Origins. (2013-2017)
  13. Stardock provides Paul and Fred regular updates on progress including video of pre-alpha footage, design notes, screenshots.  Relations are amicable and supportive. (2013-2017)
  15. Stardock updates Paul and Fred on Star Control: Origins release schedule and begins planning its 25th anniversary which will include releasing the classic games onto more channels.  Stardock asks if there would be any interest in having SC2 ships appear in Super-Melee. The games are submitted and approved by Steam in preparation (Summer 2017).
  17. Paul and Fred contact Stardock to inform them that they will be announcing a new game that will utilize the characters from their universe.  (Fall 2017)
  19. Stardock is both pleased and concerned about the timing of their plan, points out the licensing agreement would allow Stardock to use their IP (albeit at a higher royalty than Stardock was hoping for). Stardock asks that they coordinate these announcements together ensure there is no confusion and about the games appearing competitive. (Fall 2017)   
  21. Paul and Fred state they plan to make a sequel to Star Control II which would violate Stardock's trademark rights (you can't claim your product is a sequel to another company's product).  Paul and Fred also assert that Stardock does not have a license to their IP.
  22. In the email below Paul and Fred state that each party should work within its respective rights: Stardock having the Star Control trademarks and Paul and Fred owning all the IP rights to the works they created. Note that at this point, Paul and Fred recognized that owning the registration to the Star Control trademark also includes many common law trademarks. Hence "trademarks" plural.
  24. Stardock responds stating that as far as Stardock is aware, while Paul and Fred own the IP they created, Stardock does have an active licensing agreement that controls how that IP can and can't be used.  Stardock also reiterates that it has not used this license out of respect for Paul and Fred. (October 2017)
  26. Stardock states its concern at the idea of Paul and Fred representing their game as a "direct sequel", asks to schedule a call to discuss.  Note that at this point, Brad, like many, is under the impression that Paul and Fred essentially created Star Control on their own, a two-man team with licensed music was not uncommon thing back in 1992 (Stardock later re-evaluates that position after learning that the project had a large budget for 1990 and immense talent on it). (October 2017)
  27. Paul and Fred respond that they simply don't agree but provide no evidence as to why the licensing agreement would have expired. (October 2017)
  29. Stardock provides its reviewed legal position.  Stardock isn't using any IP from the classic games other than the right to market and sell them as they have been for several years.  (October 2017)
  30. Stardock points out that it has a license to the IP to use provided it pays a royalty of 10% (which is why Stardock has asked in the past for a new licensing agreement as 10% is too much for a cameo of a classic character). Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell suggests talking on the phone to iron things out. (October 2017).
  31. Email includes proposal:
  33. Paul and Fred refuse Stardock's proposal and begin to demand changes to Star Control: Origins.
  35. Paul and Fred, knowing the date Stardock was planning to announce the Fleet Battles beta, preemptively announce Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control II; use the Star Control II box (which is owned by Stardock) as the only art on the page for it; promote it to the media and to social media as the "true" sequel to Star Control.  (October)
  36. Despite having just stated that their efforts should be "separated" by each parties rights (Stardock with the trademarks) Paul and Fred almost immediately violate that understanding by using the Star Control trademarks throughout their announcement.
  38. The Star Control trademark is mentioned 4 times in the announcement, each with an (R) without mentioning Stardock leading a reasonable consumer to believe it is their mark (Ghosts of the Precursors is listed once). 
  39. Paul and Fred claim they "released" Star Control II on the same page that shows Star Control II with the Accolade mark misleading the relationship between Accolade and Paul and Fred (who, regardless of their tremendous work, were contracted by Accolade to create content that was then licensed into Accolade's product).
  40. The media follow-up by referring to it as "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors". (October)
  41. Paul and Fred promote the idea that it's Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors and not its own game:
  43. The above is one example among dozens.
  44. Paul and Fred publicize coverage of their new game with each post using the Star Control mark but not a single one using the term "Ghosts of the Precursors".  Looking below, what's the name of their new game?
  46. Many posts and articles appear, endorsed by Paul and Fred that state that their new game is a "direct sequel" to Star Control.  Some refer to it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.
  47. Stardock moves forward on its 25th anniversary plans, release the beta of Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles beta and relaunches the classic DOS games for the 25th anniversary on Steam. (October)
  48. Paul and Fred's attorney contacts Stardock's CEO.  This is the first time lawyers have been involved.  Lawyers take over. (October)
  49. Paul and Fred begin to demand that Stardock begin policing the Star Control community for fan art that they believe violates their rights (including members of this forum and on Steam). (October)
  50. Paul and Fred begin demanding the removal of features from Star Control: Origins including the ship designer (a feature that has been part of Stardock's games for over a decade). (October)
  51. Paul and Fred begin demanding insider builds of Star Control: Origins for inspection and begin insisting various broad features are their property despite having no right to do so. (October)
  52. Paul and Fred reject numerous attempts to create a co-existence agreement that would permit Ghosts of the Precursors to go forward independently.   (November)
  53. Paul and Fred insist they have the right to associate their game with Stardock's trademarks including referring to their game as the "true" sequel to Star Control. (November)
  54. Paul and Fred demand that the DOS games be removed from distribution while still providing no evidence to support their claim that the agreement had expired. (November)
  55. Paul and Fred begin to make public defamatory blog posts and tweets about Stardock. (December)
  56. Paul and Fred file DMCA notices against Steam and GOG not just for Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which Stardock holds the federally registered copyright for and that Paul and Fred had no involvement in. (December)
  57. Stardock's attorneys file a suit against Paul and Fred for trademark infringement and other causes of action. (December)
  58. Paul and Fred's attorney files a lawsuit against Stardock alleging copyright infringement and other causes of action. (February).
  59. Paul and Fred's PR firm releases a press release to the wire services accusing Stardock of "copyright theft" do press interviews attacking Stardock. (February)
  60. This post is initially made. (February)
  61. Paul and Fred post an email exchange they claim is between themselves and Atari, something they had not shown to Stardock and still have not provided to Stardock to evaluate. 
  62. Paul and Fred post what they claim is a Stardock settlement proposal in violation of federal rule 408. Stardock denies the accuracy. (March)
  63. Paul and Fred's PR firm targets Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell personally on Twitter for abuse with an inflammatory and completely inaccurate social media post. (March)
  65. Paul and Fred like a tweet that purports that these activities have cost Stardock up to 50% of potential sales and may lead to review bombing of the final game:  (March)
  67. To make clear that Stardock's concern is regarding the protection of its Star Control IP and not the sales of Star Control: Ur-Quan Masters, it decides that it will be suspend sales of the classic games until the dispute is resolved starting April 4. (March 2018).

Q: Don't Paul and Fred contend that the 1988 licensing agreement with Accolade has expired?

A: That is their position.  However, since the dispute began, Stardock has chosen to err on the side of caution and operate as if that is the case.   Stardock requested that GOG and Steam remove the games for sale pending a resolution.  The 1988 agreement, however, does not have anything to do with the Star Control trademarks were were always owned by Accolade and were assigned to Stardock.   

Stardock's ownership of the Star Control trademark is incontestable.  You can review the federal registration that dates back to the 1990s here.

Q: But isn't it true that Star Control: Origins has very similar gameplay to Star Control II? That you explore planets, travel through hyperspace to different star systems, meet with aliens? Couldn't their copyright of Star Control II mean that Star Control: Origins is too similar?

A: You cannot copyright an idea.  Putting aside that Star Control itself borrowed many ideas from many other games, copyright protects creative expression. Not game play.  

There are articles you can read that discuss this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_clone 

https://venturebeat.com/2013/03/16/defeating-mobile-game-clones-why-copyright-protection-is-not-enough/ 

https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/11752/is-it-legally-possible-to-make-a-clone-of-the-game 

Obviously, anyone who has ever played Angry Birds or Candy Crunch already knows this.

That said, Star Control: Origins is not a clone of Star Control II.  The 25-year gap in game technology allows Star Control: Origins to deliver a much richer experience.  So while the core concepts remain true: You are the captain of a starship traveling through this part of the galaxy, meeting aliens, engaging in battles, exploring planets, the implementation is very different.

In short: Gameplay clones aren't illegal and even if it were illegal, Star Control: Origins is not a clone. 

 

Q: Why does Stardock claim that Paul and Fred were not the creators of Star Control?

A: Paul and Fred were the designers of Star Control I and II.  In the credits, on the box and elsewhere they had previously officially listed themselves as either developers or designers.  

While Stardock has no objection to “creators” in the casual sense, legally, and when trying to promote a product in commerce, they are not. Most of the Copyrighted material people think of as being important to Star Control was created and owned by others. 

For 25 years, Designer was their official designation.   

It is Stardock's opinion that they have begun to focus on referring to themselves as "creators" in their marketing in order to give the impression that Ghosts of the Precursors would have the the same creative core as Star Control II.   This is not the case.

What most people do not realize is Star Control II had, in essence, the dream Sci-Fi team as mentioned in this 25th anniversary tribute. The lead animator went on to lead the animation at Pixar and is the director of the Minions movies.  Many of the alien designs were created by the artist who went on to design Darth Maul and other Star Wars and Marvel movie characters.  Many of the most quoted lines came from seasoned Sci-Fi writers.  The engaging music was created by others.

We respect Paul and Fred’s crucial contributions as well as the rest of the talented team who worked on Star Control.  

Q: Who owns the Star Control trademark?

A: Stardock is the legal owner of the federally registered trademark for Star Control.  You can view it here. https://www.trademarkia.com/star-control-75095591.html 

Q: What does Stardock want out of this lawsuit?  

A:  Our ONLY goal is to protect our ability to tell more stories in the Star Control multiverse.  We remain fans of Paul and Fred and their contributions to Star Control.  However, given the confusion they’ve created in the market by promoting their new game as a “true sequel” to Star Control II combined with their abuse of the DMCA system to take down even Star Control games they had no involvement with, we are forced to act to prevent them from continuing to create confusion.   

Consider some of your favorite games or movies. Now imagine if someone instrumental to the development of that game or movie went on to claim to be making a sequel to that game or movie without the consent of the owners of that trademark? What would be the result?

Q: But doesn't Paul and Fred own all the in-game IP?

A: Paul and Fred own whatever IP they created.  What that is remains to be seen. Stardock does not claim to own any copyrighted material within Star Control II which is why the new Star Control: Origins is set in its own universe with its own characters and story.

However, as of April 2018, neither Paul or Fred had any rights to any of the art and much of the writing in Star Control II. However, even if they did, it would be irrelevant as Stardock isn't using any copyrighted material from Star Control 1, 2, or 3 in the new Star Control games.

On the trademark side, simply because you were contracted to work on a game does not grant you the right to make a new game and claim it is related regardless of what copyrights you think you may own (otherwise, you could argue that Unity and Epic could start to make sequels to other people's games).

For example, Paul Reiche is the President of an Activision studio.  Blizzard is another Activision studio.  Stardock was once contracted to develop a StarCraft expansion (StarCraft: Retribution). One can imagine the response Stardock would receive it it were to announce a new game as a "direct sequel" to StarCraft: Retribution.

By contrast, not only did Paul and Fred announce their new game as a "direct" and later "true" sequel to Star Control, they even used the Star Control II box, that was acquired by Stardock, to promote it.

As much as we respect Paul and Fred, the fact is, Paul Reiche was contracted as an independent contractor (not as a company) by Accolade to develop Star Control for Accolade.  This is a fairly routine method that developers get products made (Stardock's own Fences, WindowBlinds, Groupy, IconPackager, etc. were developed using the same method).

Q: Do these legal issues have any impact on Star Control: Origins?

A: UPDATE:

Apparently yes.  Despite Star Control: Origins having nothing to do with Reiche and Ford's games, they have filed DMCA take down notices to Steam and GOG to take down Star Control: Origins.  They claim (with not specificity) that they own copyrights in Star Control: Origins

Game sites don't make legal judgments on the merits.  They simply remove the content.  No one, to our knowledge, has ever tried to do this on a shipping game before.  

You can read our response here.

 

Q: Why did Stardock trademark Ur-Quan Masters, Super Melee, and other names from the original games? 

A: Once Paul and Fred began to challenge the validity of our intellectual property we were forced to take steps to solidify our common law rights. Specifically, Paul and Fred have worked to try to separate Stardock's Star Control mark from its association with the classic games.  

The reason companies were bidding to acquire the Star Control trademarks and willing to pay $300,000 for it was for the association with the classic series.  The trademarks, being in active use in connection with the beloved classic series, made it valuable.  

When Paul and Fred began to seek to cancel the Star Control mark and make public statements that Star Control: Origins isn't related to the classic series Stardock felt obligated to respond by reinforcing its intellectual property rights to the classic series.  

As background: Stardock always had the common law trademark to Ur-Quan Masters. It's the sub-title to Star Control II after all and was, by Paul and Fred's admission, available in commerce on GOG even before Stardock was involved. Super-Melee is literally a promoted feature from Star Control. The alien names are so strongly associated with Star Control that if you Google Star Control aliens they come up as the first entry.  

They have made it very clear that they believe that they have the right to associate their new game with Star Control on the basis that they have previously licensed content to Star Control games. They have no such right.

Q: Why did Stardock really need to trademark the Star Control 2 alien names?

A: Star Control fans expect new Star Control games to have the Spathi, Ur-Quan, Orz, etc.   We originally chose not to include them in Star Control: Origins in deference to Paul and Fred who asked us not to.  

However, in December 2017, Paul and Fred posted:

This creates confusion because Stardock alone owns the Star Control universe. That doesn’t mean it owns any lore or stories created by others. It just means that Stardock has the right to determine what is canon in the Star Control universe.  

The Star Control aliens are associated with Star Control. That doesn’t mean Stardock can use expressions and stories of those aliens without permission. But it does mean Stardock has the right to create its own stories and expressions for the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc.

When Paul and Fred were contracted to develop Star Control I and Star Control II for Accolade, they were allowed to keep certain copyrights to the works they created. But all trademarks were explicitly defined as being owned by Accolade. 

Incidentally, their name was put into a diagram because they literally announced their game as a sequel to Star Control II.  They associated their new game with Star Control, not the other way around.

Q: Is Stardock trying to prevent Paul and Fred from making new games in their universe?

A: No.  Stardock wants them to create new games in the universe they created.  However, this needs to be handled in such a way that there is no confusion as to the relationship between Star Control and the works they licensed for Star Control II.

Q: If Stardock wants a new game from Paul and Fred, why did the settlement offer that Paul and Fred publicly posted that they claim came from Stardock demand that they "surrender" their IP?

A: It is regrettable that Paul and Fred chose to violate confidentiality and post, without context, a settlement offer.  Paul and Fred have been offered many settlement proposals with many different terms and are intended for negotiation by both parties to try to reach an amicable settlement.

Stardock paid over $300,000 for the Star acontrol IP which included the trademark and copyright to Star a Control 3. The Star Control brand is, in our view, far more valuable than any copyrighted material within a 25 year old DOS game. Source code and alien art. Nothing else, as far as we can discern, falls under copyright protection. You can’t copyright “lore” or timelines, or alien names, or game designs or UI.  

Thus, all we would gain would be the ability to have Ur-Quan that look just like the old Ur-Quan and space ships that look like the classic space ships. The greater value would be to make sure this kind of dispute didn’t happen again. But that value would still not overcome the damage they’ve caused in the market place due to the confusion on who owns Star Control and the ill will due to their PR company issuing false and misleading press releases and publicizing the dispute in a way to maximize ill will. Not to mention the considerable and rising legal costs.

None of this would prevent Paul and Fred from making a new game if that really is their desire. Stardock, in turn, would have been happy to license, free of charge, any IP they needed to make their new game.

Our respect for the work Paul and Fred did 25 years ago remains undiminished.  However, that respect does not give them the right to disrupt our product development at the 11th hour or misrepresent their new endeavors as the "true" sequel to our products.

Our dedication to bringing you a new Star Control game remains unchanged.  BETA 2 of Star Control: Origins is due in a few weeks.

For those interested in reading the details, our complete initial filing available online:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385277-Stardock-Legal-Complaint-2635-000-P-2017-12-08-1.html

Stardock 25th anniversary post documenting the creation of Star Control:

https://www.stardock.com/games/article/485810/star-control-ii-25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants  

 


Thank you for being fans of Star Control, and supporting our effort to make a great new game in the Star Control franchise.

And if you have questions that you’d like to see added to this post, feel free to reach out to me directly via Twitter at @kevinunangst

Kevin Unangst

Vice President, Marketing and Strategic Partnerships

Stardock Entertainment

1,790,250 views 728 replies
Reply #101 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 100


Quoting Frogboy,
reply 96
Personally speaking, once Paul and Fred filed to cancel the Star Control trademark, something we have invested millions of dollars in, I don't have a lot of sympathy for them.



Just to check, are you referring to their counterclaim, or did they try to cancel the trademark before then?

If before, then I would agree that that was a pretty aggressive move.  If you mean in their counterclaim, I think it's important to note that Stardock's complaint asserted facts that seemed designed to cancel their copyright, which is an equally nuclear-level attack on their IP.

They had no copyright to cancel.   So I'm not sure what you are even talking about.

You seem to be willing to hand wave the order of events as if they don't really matter.

 

Reply #102 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting bleybourne, reply 93


Quoting tingkagol,
reply 91

It's akin to stepping on your neighbor's grass and losing your entire house as penalty.



Paul and Fred aren't stepping on Stardock's grass. They're trying to pull it out by the roots and salt the earth and then claim that it was Stardock's fault all along for stealing their grass.

Except it wasn't Paul and Fred's grass to start with. It was Activisions, and Stardock bought that grass from Activision quite legally.

Then offered to give Paul and Fred that grass at cost, and Paul and Fred told them to get fucked.

So no, it's not at all like what you say.

Legally it was Activision's, but creatively it was ours.  And to this day Paul & Fred are acting like they came up with this amazing game.  They didn't, we did.  Star Control is an arcade version of the fully integrated Star Fleet Universe.  Federation & Empire (their galactic map).  Combat zooms into tactical level ("Super Melee"), Star Fleet Battles.  The RPG/Adventure aspects... Prime Directive.  The mothershp with it's Hyrdan "Hellbore Cannons" and "Hawk Series" Romulan modular ship design.  It's the integrated Star Fleet Universe as an arcade game and they are still pretending like it is their genius.  It was not their genius, it was ours.

Their whole industry has been plagiarizing us, very badly I might add, for over 30 years now while never giving us any of the credit for it, or allowing any of us into their business.  Which makes a lot of sense, considering how bad us... "The Real Deal"... would make their pathetic "fan productions" of our work look.

The gaming world has no idea how games like this COULD be, their "fan production" imitations are like they were made by five year olds playing in a sandbox!  Their military knowledge is the equivalent of an anti-war protester, they actually manage to know less than nothing.  Ships that are completely helpless and defenseless against a single missile pretty much says it all.

It's not their game, they stole it from us.  The same can be said for Master of Orion.  Master of Orion was not their game, they stole it from us... and it was TERRIBLE.  Like five year olds playing in a sandbox!!!

The Political Machine 2024
Reply #103 from StarControl Forums Top

As you probably guessed, I didn't play Star Fleet Battles.  So I can't say.  Hence, GalCiv has a very different way of playing.

What I am getting tired of reading is moral equivalence arguments by people trying to be "fair".  Occam's Razor is pretty obvious here.   In order for P&F to be remotely correct you would have to believe that we became an evil, malicious corporation suddenly, and without warning at the same exact time they just happened to decide they wanted to do a game.

At some point, I can't help but thinking that a few people are just being disingenuous.

Reply #104 from StarControl Forums Top

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, one of the things I liked so much about GalCiv was that it was obvious that the people who made it had never heard of SFB before.  Since you went with a quick combat resolution, you didn't copy Master of Orion's tech and tactical level... so you didn't bring in that SFB influence without realizing it.  GalCiv was essentially Civilization in space with your own quick combat resolution that was a lot better than MOO's quick resolution option, that had no SFB influence because you had obviously never even heard of it.  That's what made me like it so much.  I want quick resolution in a strategy game, I don't want to be interrupted by a tactical game while I am wanting to play a strategy game.  MOOs quick resolution was terrible, GalCiv's was better and the tech/ship design was its own thing that didn't come from SFB.

I liked that a lot better than the "badly done SFB" that almost everyone else does, that's what drew me to GalCiv II.


EDIT: This is also why I always liked Trevor Sorensen's games.  They are also among the few that were their own thing, and not just badly done SFB.

Reply #105 from Stardock.net Forums Top

Well I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said, and if I were to say it I would just be asked to leave.

So I'll leave with this instead:

Kavik_Kang, I will miss your bizarre ramblings. I fear you've been up on that high horse (or is it a giraffe these days?) so long that you've forgotten how to walk.

Reply #106 from StarControl Forums Top

What "high horse"?  If I dare to point out how people like Paul & Fred had made their reputations by plagiarizing us, there is something wrong with me?  I've never said I was some kind of genius, only that almost everyone who works in the computer game industry is incompetent when it comes to game design.  Great programmers and artists, who know nothing about designing games.  They are at the Candyland level, they make games like Candyland.  We are at The Martix, a holodeck, cyberspace... about 300 years ahead of them.

How do they treat us?  They actually insist that any 20 year old who graduates their ridiculous, silly "game design school" is qualified to be a game designer and people from the hobbyist game industry are not.  Meanwhile, we are actually 300 years ahead of them and they've been plagiarizing us for over 30 years.  If we are not even qualified, but any random 20 year old is... why do they constantly steal from us?  What kind of sense does that make?  We don't know what we are doing, we aren't qualified to even work in their industry... and they've been stealing from us for over 30 years.

They truly are a "special" group of people.  They bring new meaning to the word "arrogance".  They are like 5 year olds playing in a sandbox compared too us!

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Reply #107 from StarControl Forums Top

I assume you are referring to this, Kavik?

What I think made Star Control special was its unique blend of different game mechanics.  And trust me, it's not easy to get that right.

Even if each element was borrowed from Space Wars or Star Fleet battles or Dungeons & Dragons, I don't think anyone can deny that being able to put these elements together is a major challenge and a big part of the genius that Paul and Fred brought to SC2.  

On top of that, the story in SC2 I always felt was unique.

Consider its opening:

You start off with the knowledge that your side LOST the war.  Back then, that was a pretty innovative thing.   You get to Earth and it's behind a slave shield. Holy cow! 

The only thing as remotely intense I remember was that if you messed up in Wing Commander enough the Tiger's Claw ended up fleeing back to Earth and you had the knowledge that Earth was doomed.

Where I think you and I do see eye to eye is when people start claiming to OWN certain things.

Most people only have seen a tiny % of what's been exchanged.  Even our meager public defenses are very much hamstrung by not being able to divulge the correspondence.  

Some people are vaguely aware (the few people who actually read the filings) that Paul and Fred claim to own Super-Melee and complained about the ship designer and the little ship doo-dads in the Tywom background and the look of the Earthling ship and so on. 

And that's just what has been publicly disclosed that they think they "own".  Combine that with their willingness to abuse the DMCA process and you have a serious issue.

Does anyone here doubt, even for a  moment, that P&F's fans would happily justify the destruction of Star Control: Origins over an abuse use of DMCA because the game has some element that they think they own (let's say...I dunno, the Earthling ship looks too similar to the one they claim to won)?  

We have a moral obligation to our fans, the Stardock community, the Star Control community and our employees to make sure we deliver what we say we will.

 

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Reply #108 from StarControl Forums Top

Paul & Fred keep acting as though they created this great, amazing thing from scratch.  It's 90% the interlinked SFU, and they loaded it with little tributes to the SFU.  People like P&F have been plagiarizing our work for 30 years, trying make themselves look like geniuses by stealing the SFU and calling it their own.  Master of Orion was the same thing.  People like Paul & Fred have basically stolen my life from me.  I never got to make games, because people like them kept plagiarizing us and never mentioning where what they had done actually came from.  Master of Orion was the same thing and, indirectly, pretty much all space ship games can trace their heritage back too us.  But nobody knows who we are because of people like Paul & Fred.  Had I so much had written a single short story for D&D I would have been making computer games for my entire life.

The top half dozen or so game and simulation designers in the world today all come from the same place, the SFB Staff.  Not a single one of us makes computer games, because nobody has any idea who we are... because of plagiarists like Paul & Fred.  I, for one, have had it at this point.  I am claiming the credit we have always deserved.  Star Control was not their game, it was ours.  Master of Orion was not their game, it was ours.

There are very few people in the computer game industry who can even be described as competent when it comes to game design.  Great programmers and artists, who know almost nothing at all about game design.  And it shows.

 

Reply #109 from StarControl Forums Top

Ok, fair enough.  I am not familiar enough with SFB to say that.

But looking at the ship lineup from SC2, I can't imagine most of them are from SFB.

 

 

I'm not saying you're wrong.  Obviously some of them are...ahem, inspired (I see a Klingon, battlestar Galactica, an Enterprise inspiration, and a few others).  But for instance, what about the Pkunk?  What SFB ship is that like?  What about the Spathi?  What SFB battle is that from?

All creators take inspiration.  But saying P&F plagiarized seems like a stretch.

Here are the Star Control: Origins ships (some of these have been modified).

Some of the aliens have changed since then, btw after I took over lead design so you can ee some of the old ones here.

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Reply #110 from StarControl Forums Top

There is really nothing about Star Control that is not just an arcade version of the fully linked SFU.  The galactic/strategic map is Federation & Empire, combat zooms down into SFB.  This is all contained within an RPG/adventure game... Prime Directive.  Sound familiar?  This is the interlinked SFU, not Star Control.

The Ur Quan might look like BSG too you, but it is actually Hydran.  Like I showed in a previous post, with pictures of BSG, a Hydran, and then the Ur Quan.  The Ur Quan is not Galactica.  A Hydran is Galactica with the hangar bays removed and the main body slightly re-styled.  An Ur Quan is, then, a Hydran with the hangar bays put back on.  Not the BSG, but a Hydran with the hangar bays put back on.  There is a difference, and you can see it in the progression of those images I posted about that.

The Pkunk was a Last Starfighter reference, "Death Blossom", within their Star Fleet Battles as an arcade game "Super-Melee".

The Spathi is both inspired and based entirely by the Kaufman Retrograde.  They wouldn't have known to design a ship that works like the Spathi does if they did not understand the concept of the retrograde.  You can credit Kenneth Kaufman with for the Spathi, not Paul & Fred.  As is always the case, the game is ours and only the story and characters are theirs.  Fwiffo, the Spathi species, the look of the ship is theirs... the game design is all us.

In an earlier post I gave a lot of other examples.  Like "Hellbore Cannons", a term Steve Cole made up out of thin air and is entirely SFU.  Kind of like calling Romulan ships "Warbirds", SVC made that one up too.  Even Star Trek regularly "borrows" from the SFU.  The TNG episode "Peak Performance" is a thinly veiled tribute to the SFU and the "Kholrami" character is Steve Cole.

The Airlou is an Andromean from SFB, right down to its Displacement Device and "flickering back and forth graphic effect" Tractor-Repulsor Beam... It's too much to even start listing.  Almost everything about Star Control is just the interlinked SFU.  There is almost nothing in it, other than the story, that isn't just the SFU.

The Sophixti... Orion Light Raider with suicide bomb... Almost everything in Star Control, or Master of Orion, or Sword of the Stars, etc, etc, etc... is straight out of the SFU.

Reply #111 from StarControl Forums Top

I could actually make a similar post about things Star Trek "borrowed" from the SFU.  The big one that is the first thing SFB players always point too are the "Xindi" from ST: Enterprise.  They are the "Interstellar Concordium" of the SFU.

"Combat is a minor province in the makeup of a starship captain." - William Riker?  Nope... Steve Cole.  A word-for-word direct quote.  There are many other examples.  The SFU is a far bigger deal in the history of Star Trek than most people know.  It was VERY influential over all Star Trek that came after TOS.  They even used SFB to choreograph things happening in space to keep everything consistent.

There is an entire generation of people who consider the SFU to be the original continuation of Star Trek, and a much better continuation of Star Trek than Gene Roddenbery and Paramount did.

Reply #112 from StarControl Forums Top

It would almost be easier to find the Hydran ships in the GalCiv II designer it seems:

 

Image result for Star Fleet battles ships Hydran

 

I also found this:

Budget Conquest Star Trek Factions Chart by LykanHybrid

Reply #113 from StarControl Forums Top

Those are Star Fleet Command versions of SFU ships.  Taldren/Interplay went way off the reservation in just re-doing things that there was no reason for them to re-invent.  Why pay for a license for something and then change it all?  I never understood that.  But, yes, it looks like players were making SFC versions of SFB ships in your GalCiv editor.  The original SFB versions are much cooler looking, especially the Gorn and ISC ships.  SVC's Gorns, in particular, have a "classic Star Trek" look that stand right up alongside Enterprise and the Klingon D7.  SVC's versions of these ships are a LOT cooler and better looking than the SFC versions.

SFC really was "SFB made by monkeys".  ;-)

 

EDIT: SVC's version of the Gorn Battlecruiser, their equivalent to Enterprise or a Klingon D7...

https://www.shapeways.com/product/LN9ADG4SX/3788-scale-gorn-allosaurus-buck-battlecruiser-bc?optionId=64854572

Fits right into classic Star Trek, doesn't it, unlike those ugly SFC blocks.  Why would they replace this absolutely classic look with uninspired blocks after paying for a license to get to use SVC's work?  "SFB made by monkeys".  ;-)

Reply #114 from StarControl Forums Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 113

Those are Star Fleet Command versions of SFU ships.  Taldren/Interplay went way off the reservation in just re-doing things that there was no reason for them to re-invent.  Why pay for a license for something and then change it all?  I never understood that.  But, yes, it looks like players were making SFC versions of SFB ships in your GalCiv editor.  The original SFB versions are much cooler looking, especially the Gorn and ISC ships.  SVC's Gorns, in particular, have a "classic Star Trek" look that stand right up alongside Enterprise and the Klingon D7.  SVC's versions of these ships are a LOT cooler and better looking than the SFC versions.

SFC really was "SFB made by monkeys".  ;)

 

EDIT: SVC's version of the Gorn Battlecruiser, their equivalent to Enterprise or a Klingon D7...

https://www.shapeways.com/product/LN9ADG4SX/3788-scale-gorn-allosaurus-buck-battlecruiser-bc?optionId=64854572

Fits right into classic Star Trek, doesn't it, unlike those ugly SFC blocks.  Why would they replace this absolutely classic look with uninspired blocks after paying for a license to get to use SVC's work?  "SFB made by monkeys".  ;)

Heh.

But I don't see any ships that look like the Ur-Quan battlecruiser in that list.  To me, I just see Battlestar Galactica.

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Reply #115 from StarControl Forums Top

@Kavik_Kang honestly I understand your disappointment/rage/etc in seeing something you know and love not get the recognition you believe it deserves.

For the TL;DR part, D&D gets the recognition where SFB doesn't because it's easier to pick up and has "Don't Panic" written on the cover when compared to SFB.

Now the longer reply, a bit armchair lawyer, a bit of hindsight, and personal opinion.

From my viewpoint SFB never took off to the same levels of recognition and glory as D&D for the following reasons.

  • SFB is a derivative work of Star Trek, so this alone likely shot you in the foot.  This probably put the game in the crosshair of lawyers over the years unless it was an officially licensed work authorized by the rights holders of the "Star Trek" name to produce retail products for profit.  Note: I did see it's working under a license where it can't use Kirk/Spock/Enterprise/Etc but can get away with it in a vague sense.
  • The game is prohibitively hard to pick-up when it comes to rule sets
  • The game lacks name recognition due to the above 2 items, yes you'll see "Nerds" playing D&D in Movies / Tv Shows / Music Videos / Etc, but I have never once heard of SFB until I started seeing your walls of text roll out on forums
  • Lastly, a problem is you yourself, if you had been more gentle and understanding while being willing to teach people you would have gathered parties of interested people, however many of your posts about SFB can very easily be misinterpreted as heavy handed arrogant elitism.

Putting that aside, if you haven't already I implore you or whomever is authorized to, to try to get onto Tabletop with Wil Wheaton and represent the game not as a keystone pivotal work in Science Fiction games, but as a highly immersive detailed SciFi Tabletop Tactical RPG, and keep on fighting the good fight until it has brand recognition up there alongside D&D.

 

Now did Fred & Paul know about SFB prior to creating Star Control, that's going to be a hard one to determine unless you can find a quote in an old gaming magazine or even an ancient BBS post.  Did they build a game off of the ideas/mechanics presented within SFB, again you'll have to find that quote.  To tell you the truth though, I see a ton of games and literary works that "Borrow" items / obscure ideas from other works, either with or without proper recognition until it's to the point of obscurity on who created what first, or who took what and made it an acceptable use item that the creator absolutely fudged up on deployment.

Reply #116 from StarControl Forums Top

Brad: That is because those are not SFB Hydrans, they are SFC Hyrdans... made by monkeys.  This is the original post I made on that...

Here is a visual comparison in chronological order...

Galactica...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Battlestar+Galactica+picture&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS784US784&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJkt6tx9rZAhUJFHwKHY6gBcIQ7AkIRQ&biw=1920&bih=974#imgrc=MFrSUxh35x8cYM:

Hydran...

https://www.shapeways.com/product/UYV68CLSL/3788-scale-hydran-chausseur-new-scout-cruiser-cvn?optionId=64891464

Ur Quan...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ur+Quan+Dreadnought&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS784US784&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=ifm3veESeHKmJM%253A%252CZuFFrlYn3POomM%252C_&usg=__VhHRGN693zvjNhCYTfuHiCFbgR8%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiohe32x9rZAhWL6YMKHcnNCucQ9QEIQDAC#imgrc=ifm3veESeHKmJM:

...so, when it comes to the Ur Quan, it's ultimately Glenn A Larson and the network that would have a lawsuit over ship design here.

 

Pyro: You have a false impression of SFB.  It was, with D&D and the Avalon Hill games, one of "The Big Three" of the hobbyist game industry.  Second only to D&D, SFB, and the Avalon Hill lineup was the basis of the hobbyist game industry.  During those days a game store was three isles of Avalon Hill games, an entire wall of D&D, an entire wall of SFB, and what little space was left in the store was "all other games".  It was one of the three dominant games of the game industry for about 20 years, it's international tournament system was surpassed only by the World Chess Federation.  It isn't known because it became a tradition in the computer game industry to plagiarize SFB.  Master of Orion, Star Control, Rules of Engagement.  Almost every early space ship game was just someone stealing the Star Fleet Universe, never mentioning that is what they were doing, trying to make themselves look like geniuses by taking the credit for what had already been decades of work by scientists, engineers, lawyers, military officers, etc.  Plagiarizing the Star Fleet Universe has been a tradition within the computer game industry since its inception, and then they in turn refuse to let any SFB Staff into their business and even insist, to our faces, that any random 20 year old graduate of the Devry School of Game design is qualified to design games and SFB Staff is not.  They are INCOMPETENT!!!

And proving that Star Control is simply plagiarism, or "theft" to use what they laughable accuse Stardock of doing, is a very simple matter.  Star Control is just their theft of the Star Fleet Universe, re-making it as an arcade game.  Other than the story, there is almost nothing in Star Control that wasn't just stolen from SFB.  This is very, very obvious to anyone who knows SFB.  They did almost nothing from a game design perspective.  They stole from Steve Cole and the SFB Staff and claimed it as their own.  And they are still doing it today.  The same exact thing can be said of Master of Orion.

Really, just about ALL of the computer games that you considered to be "classics" share this same common thread... they are rip-offs of the Star Fleet Universe.  Then, on top of that, just as all RPGs can be said to be "D&D games", the same is true with SFB.  All space ship games can be said to be "SFB games".  I lived this, this has been my life.  I really know what I am talking about here.  Your perception of it is partly based on the very issue that, as I like to put it in single sentance form...

"Steve Cole and the Star Fleet Universe are the Rodney Dangerfield of the gaming world... they don't get no respect."

 

PS Oh... And why would SFB not be represented as the "keystone pivotal work in sci-fi games" when that is EXACTLY WHAT IT IS?  You've put it perfectly with that phrase, that is EXACTLY what SFB is.

Reply #118 from StarControl Forums Top

Oh yeah, another thing about the Ur Quan... In the SFU all races have a color associated with them, the color of their counters.  Yes, you guessed it, the Hydrans are green...

...and they have "Hellbore Cannons".  P&F were obviously big fans of the Hydrans.  The Ur Quan's fighters are also Hydran Stinger fighters, in both their appearance and game design.

Reply #119 from StarControl Forums Top

...and to further address some of Pyro's misconceptions, without writing a lot here, I already did "the Will Wheaton thing" with my Gamasutra blog about 2 years ago.  Anyone interested in the history of the Star Fleet Universe and the hobbyist game industry in general could read my blog here...

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/author/MarcMichalik/787769/blogs/page=2&i=i

 

I will also point out that Amarillo Design Bureau (ADB) is very close to having outlived Avalon Hill, they are only a few years away from having lasted longer as a successful game company than any other game company in history.  SFB has been a successful game, the one that keeps ADB in business, for all of this time.  It is still being worked on, and new products are still released EVERY MONTH, to this day.  The recent focus has been on re-doing all of the miniatures as modern 3D printed versions, much cheaper to players than the original metal miniatures were/are.  ADB's web site is here...

http://www.starfleetgames.com/

From a perspective of endurance and longevity the Star Fleet Universe is, by far, the most successful commercial game of all time.

 

Reply #120 from StarControl Forums Top

Seriously dude you didn't read a thing I wrote did you...

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 116

PS Oh... And why would SFB not be represented as the "keystone pivotal work in sci-fi games" when that is EXACTLY WHAT IT IS?  You've put it perfectly with that phrase, that is EXACTLY what SFB is.

It may be but no one cares is the point, quit trying to shove it down the throats of everyone around and let new fans come to that conclusion themselves, if they come to that conclusion at all.

By your own admission and by the Wikipedia page SFB is adapted from the Star Trek TV show from the 60s and part of the Star Trek Animated series, so it, in itself is a plagiarization of the original works of Gene Roddenberry with extra items tacked upon it and then adapted to be delivered through a different medium than the original Tv shows and books.  *GASP*  Guess What, that's what the industry as a whole is doing, take a concept and put their own twist on things.

Now I will ask you, how much of the ship capacities, technologies, functionality was originally extrapolated from the Tv Show and Animated series then adopted to the board game and then adopted to new ships and other such assets.  -- Don't get me wrong, this is a Herculean task in it's own, but if you attempt to play it off as it was created from scratch and is the granddaddy of them all you are on no better of a moral stance than any of those you claim to have stolen the work for their games.

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 119

From a perspective of endurance and longevity the Star Fleet Universe is, by far, the most successful commercial game of all time.

Yes you can get endurance and longevity from a limited set of fans, look at Doctor Who, that wasn't super popular in places other than England for the first 30-40 years after its first episode first aired and has started picking up on the global market.

However since the mid 1990s to current I have never once seen SFB in gaming centers or stores specialized around tabletop games.  -- This is why I suggested get on the show Tabletop with Wil Wheaton, it will reach infinitely more people than your blog due to how it's delivered for this current generation.

 

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 116

Plagiarizing the Star Fleet Universe has been a tradition within the computer game industry since its inception, and then they in turn refuse to let any SFB Staff into their business and even insist, to our faces, that any random 20 year old graduate of the Devry School of Game design is qualified to design games and SFB Staff is not.  They are INCOMPETENT!!!

*Sigh* where to start...

If they are knowingly plagiarizing SFU then yes there's an issue which the rights owner of SFU needs to pursue to protect their property, however at the point it's probably to the point of what's referred to as a "Chinese Whisper" for those game mechanics.  As for the Devry grad being more qualified to SFB staff that's completely up to the company and you calling them incompetent will not get you any sympathy or respect.  Many companies "not just gaming" want to hire people who are partly qualified but capable of growth and unlike industry veterans would be far more likely to wiggle and bend to fit in at the company, where an industry veteran would cost more, and more than likely clash with decisions if their existing experience and biases on X don't match with the company they joined.

Reply #121 from StarControl Forums Top

I read everything you said, you don't seem to have read what I said.

SFB is the Dungeons & Dragons of space ship games.  Just as all RPGs can trace their heritage back to D&D, all space ship games can trace their heritage back to the SFU.  You really aren't getting what SFB is, or the place it holds in the history of gaming.  

You say "by my own admission"... I don't have a wiki page.  That is ADB's wiki page.  Steve Cole's wiki page.  While SFB was certainly influenced but Star Trek than it influenced Star Trek, it also influenced Star Trek more (by far) than any game has ever influenced any TV show or movie that it was based on.  There are two whole tribute episodes to SFB in TNG.  Both "Peak Performance" and "The Wounded" are based on SFB scenarios are are tributes to SFB.

But when it comes to games, you just aren't comprehending the situation at all.  The computer game industry has been shamelessly ripping off the SFU since the day they came into existence.  There is no such thing as a computer game with space ships in it that doesn't owe its heritage to SFB.  Particularly many of the early games like Master of Orion, Star Control, and Rules of Engagement.  Star Control doesn't "slightly resemble SFB" or "contain vague similarities".  Star Control IS the integrated Star Fleet Universe IN EVERY WAY.  It is just a pure, straight theft of the Star Fleet Universe.  Just like Master of Orion was.  And, in the case of Master of Orion, I am one of the only people in the world that actually knows the details of how and why Master of Orion came into being.  I can assure, Master of Orion was an intentional effort to make an unliscenced SFU game.  I know this to be the case, I know the details of that story.  But you don't need to know the inside story, any SFB player can play SCII and immediately tell you that it is a shameless ripoff of the SFU.  There is nothing "vague" or "ambiguous" about it.  It's blatantly obvious, just as it is with almost all of the early sci-fi games.  Almost all of them were people ripping off the SFU and then taking the credit for it.

SFB's influence permeates the game industry to this day.  The very first "clone" of another successful game... Battletech.  Go play Mech Warrior Online and you'll have SFB to thank for much more than half of what you are experiencing.  Or Faster Than Light.  Read my blog about FTL, but that is pure SFB all the way as well.  But, in that case, I honestly believe that those guys had never heard of SFB.  You can tell that in many ways just by playing it, even though FTL is the most SFB-like computer game ever made.  FTL is SFB coming half way to re-inventing itself through its own staggering influence!

The reason you've never heard of SFB is because people like Paul & Fred, games like Master of Orion, Star Control, and Rules of Engagement, STOLE THE REPUTATION of the Star Fleet Universe.  THAT is the ONLY reason that it is not every bit as legendary as D&D.  The shameless hacks in the computer game industry stole its reputation.  They are the most arrogant group of people to ever exist in the history of the world.  They rip us off for over 30 years, then look us in the face and tell us that we aren't even qualified to design games compared too them.  They are INCOMPETENT, and they have PROVE THAT beyond all doubt!

You sound like one of them.  Stop trying to defend yourself.  The people in your industry are pretty much the scum of the earth!

 

Reply #122 from StarControl Forums Top

Paul and Fred's PR firm just posted this:

And we're the "bullies"...

 

Reply #123 from JoeUser Forums Top

Methinks this 'PR firm' needs to eddykate themselves re 'PR'...;p

Reply #124 from StarControl Forums Top

So if I may ask, what is the correct response to P&R's tweet above? There is what Frog wants to respond with vrs what is the correct response.... what is the correct one? 

Reply #125 from StarControl Forums Top

> So if I may ask, what is the correct response to P&R's tweet above? There is what Frog wants to respond with vrs what is the correct response.... what is the correct one? 

I wouldn't bother getting into a shit slinging match. You're not going to convince any of the hard cores by contradicting the kool-aid they've been drinking for a while now.

Besides, the truth will come out eventually, and P&F are going to be the ones who look stupid, petty and vindictive. I'll be simultaneously both a happy and a very sad man on that day.