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Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Given the ongoing discussion of the legal dispute between Stardock and Paul Reiche and Fred Ford, designers of Star Control I and II, I wanted to take time to make Stardock's position clear and address inaccuracies that have been promoted.

As the need arises, I’ll continue to update this post with additional questions and answers.

Q: What are the issues in dispute?

A: On the eve of launch of the beta of Star Control: Origins in October 2017, a game Stardock has spent the past four years working on, Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford, the designers of Star Control II for Accolade 25 years ago announced a new game, Ghosts of the Precursors as a “direct” sequel to Star Control even going so far as to promote it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.

They did this despite knowing Stardock had acquired the Star Control IP in 2013 and knowing before hand our announcement schedule. Their actions created confusion in the market as to the origin of Star Control games which is why we have trademark laws. 

When Stardock asked that they cease and desist marketing their game as a sequel to Star Control they refused and began demanding that the sale of the DOS games, which had been on sale continuously since before Stardock acquired the IP and for which they had been receiving royalties for during the entire time cease and began to disparage Stardock publicly in the press. 

Despite Stardock's best efforts to reach a private, mutually beneficial co-existence agreement, Paul and Fred responded with increasingly hostile, misleading public attacks and served Steam and GOG with DMCA take-down notices on all of the classic DOS games, including Star Control 3 which they had no involvement with all while continuing to promote their new game as the "true" sequel to Star Control.

In addition, Paul Reiche and Fred Ford also began to claim that various features of Star Control: Origins violated their copyrights such as the ship designer, user interface similarities and other elements that are not subject to copyright protection (you can’t copyright an idea and Star Control itself was inspired by many other games). They also began to demand special access to Star Control: Origins to inspect it and demanded the removal of the ship designer,

As a result of their broad interpretation of what they believe they have rights to combined with their willingness to instruct their lawyers to issue a DMCA take down notices, even on titles in which they had no involvement in, combined with their refusal to cease promoting their game as the sequel to Star Control, Stardock was forced to file a complaint over their continuing trademark infringement.

In retaliation, Reiche and Ford filed a countersuit seeking to cancel the Star Control trademark and for copyright infringement due to the sale of the classic Star Control games on GOG and Steam and are even suing GOG despite the fact that Reiche and Ford were the ones who claim to have helped get the classic Star Control games onto GOG.

Q: Why did Stardock file the initial lawsuit against Paul and Fred?

A: We had no choice after Paul and Fred filed DMCA claims against the distribution not only of Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which they admit they had no involvement.  The DMCA claims were reversed, but it was clear that our ability to create more experiences in the Star Control multiverse for fans would be at risk if they are allowed to continue to misrepresent their new game as being associated with Star Control without a license while simultaneously making broad, unsupportable claims of ownership on ideas and concepts that are present not just in Star Control games but games in general.  

Q: How did these unfortunate events come to pass?

A: Here is a timeline of the order of events:

  1. Stardock acquires the Star Control brand, copyright to Star Control 3, the license to use the Star Control classic characters, lore and the right to distribute the classic DOS games.  The DOS games are already available on GOG  with Atari listed as the publisher. (2013)
  2. Stardock discuss plans for the new Star Control.  They state that their employment by Activision prevents them from working on a new Star Coxntrol game and request that we not use the aliens from Star Control 2 but do not contest Stardock's right to do so.  (2013)
  3. Upon learning that Activision has blocked their ability to be involved and that Paul and Fred hope to one day to continue their stories, Stardock offers to transfer its rights to Star Control to them, thus uniting the Star Control brand with Paul and Fred's licensed IP.  (2013)
  4. Paul and Fred ask what Stardock acquired from Atari to which Stardock responds: The trademark, assets to Star Control 3 and the right to sell distribute, market and promote the original trilogy.
  5. Paul acknowledges Stardock's position and asks how much it cost.
  6. Paul and Fred politely decline the offer to acquire the Star Control IP. (2013)
  7. Stardock announces a reboot of Star Control and explicitly states that it will not include the characters from the classic series out of respect for Paul and Fred. (2013)
  8. Stardock spends the next 4 years and millions of dollars developing Star Control: Origins. (2013-2017)
  9. Stardock provides Paul and Fred regular updates on progress including video of pre-alpha footage, design notes, screenshots.  Relations are amicable and supportive. (2013-2017)
  10. Stardock updates Paul and Fred on Star Control: Origins release schedule and begins planning its 25th anniversary which will include releasing the classic games onto more channels.  Stardock asks if there would be any interest in having SC2 ships appear in Super-Melee. The games are submitted and approved by Steam in preparation (Summer 2017).
  11. Paul and Fred contact Stardock to inform them that they will be announcing a new game that will utilize the characters from their universe.  (Fall 2017)
  12. Stardock is both pleased and concerned about the timing of their plan, points out the licensing agreement would allow Stardock to use their IP (albeit at a higher royalty than Stardock was hoping for). Stardock asks that they coordinate these announcements together ensure there is no confusion and about the games appearing competitive. (Fall 2017)   
  13. Paul and Fred state they plan to make a sequel to Star Control II which would violate Stardock's trademark rights (you can't claim your product is a sequel to another company's product).  Paul and Fred also assert that Stardock does not have a license to their IP.
  14. In the email below Paul and Fred state that each party should work within its respective rights: Stardock having the Star Control trademarks and Paul and Fred owning all the IP rights to the works they created. Note that at this point, Paul and Fred recognized that owning the registration to the Star Control trademark also includes many common law trademarks. Hence "trademarks" plural.
  15. Stardock responds stating that as far as Stardock is aware, while Paul and Fred own the IP they created, Stardock does have an active licensing agreement that controls how that IP can and can't be used.  Stardock also reiterates that it has not used this license out of respect for Paul and Fred. (October 2017)
  16. Stardock states its concern at the idea of Paul and Fred representing their game as a "direct sequel", asks to schedule a call to discuss.  Note that at this point, Brad, like many, is under the impression that Paul and Fred essentially created Star Control on their own, a two-man team with licensed music was not uncommon thing back in 1992 (Stardock later re-evaluates that position after learning that the project had a large budget for 1990 and immense talent on it). (October 2017)
  17. Paul and Fred respond that they simply don't agree but provide no evidence as to why the licensing agreement would have expired. (October 2017)
  18. Stardock provides its reviewed legal position.  Stardock isn't using any IP from the classic games other than the right to market and sell them as they have been for several years.  (October 2017)
  19. Stardock points out that it has a license to the IP to use provided it pays a royalty of 10% (which is why Stardock has asked in the past for a new licensing agreement as 10% is too much for a cameo of a classic character). Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell suggests talking on the phone to iron things out. (October 2017).
  20. Email includes proposal:
  21. Paul and Fred refuse Stardock's proposal and begin to demand changes to Star Control: Origins.
  22. Paul and Fred, knowing the date Stardock was planning to announce the Fleet Battles beta, preemptively announce Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control II; use the Star Control II box (which is owned by Stardock) as the only art on the page for it; promote it to the media and to social media as the "true" sequel to Star Control.  (October)
  23. Despite having just stated that their efforts should be "separated" by each parties rights (Stardock with the trademarks) Paul and Fred almost immediately violate that understanding by using the Star Control trademarks throughout their announcement.
  24. The Star Control trademark is mentioned 4 times in the announcement, each with an (R) without mentioning Stardock leading a reasonable consumer to believe it is their mark (Ghosts of the Precursors is listed once). 
  25. Paul and Fred claim they "released" Star Control II on the same page that shows Star Control II with the Accolade mark misleading the relationship between Accolade and Paul and Fred (who, regardless of their tremendous work, were contracted by Accolade to create content that was then licensed into Accolade's product).
  26. The media follow-up by referring to it as "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors". (October)
  27. Paul and Fred promote the idea that it's Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors and not its own game:
  28. The above is one example among dozens.
  29. Paul and Fred publicize coverage of their new game with each post using the Star Control mark but not a single one using the term "Ghosts of the Precursors".  Looking below, what's the name of their new game?
  30. Many posts and articles appear, endorsed by Paul and Fred that state that their new game is a "direct sequel" to Star Control.  Some refer to it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.
  31. Stardock moves forward on its 25th anniversary plans, release the beta of Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles beta and relaunches the classic DOS games for the 25th anniversary on Steam. (October)
  32. Paul and Fred's attorney contacts Stardock's CEO.  This is the first time lawyers have been involved.  Lawyers take over. (October)
  33. Paul and Fred begin to demand that Stardock begin policing the Star Control community for fan art that they believe violates their rights (including members of this forum and on Steam). (October)
  34. Paul and Fred begin demanding the removal of features from Star Control: Origins including the ship designer (a feature that has been part of Stardock's games for over a decade). (October)
  35. Paul and Fred begin demanding insider builds of Star Control: Origins for inspection and begin insisting various broad features are their property despite having no right to do so. (October)
  36. Paul and Fred reject numerous attempts to create a co-existence agreement that would permit Ghosts of the Precursors to go forward independently.   (November)
  37. Paul and Fred insist they have the right to associate their game with Stardock's trademarks including referring to their game as the "true" sequel to Star Control. (November)
  38. Paul and Fred demand that the DOS games be removed from distribution while still providing no evidence to support their claim that the agreement had expired. (November)
  39. Paul and Fred begin to make public defamatory blog posts and tweets about Stardock. (December)
  40. Paul and Fred file DMCA notices against Steam and GOG not just for Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which Stardock holds the federally registered copyright for and that Paul and Fred had no involvement in. (December)
  41. Stardock's attorneys file a suit against Paul and Fred for trademark infringement and other causes of action. (December)
  42. Paul and Fred's attorney files a lawsuit against Stardock alleging copyright infringement and other causes of action. (February).
  43. Paul and Fred's PR firm releases a press release to the wire services accusing Stardock of "copyright theft" do press interviews attacking Stardock. (February)
  44. This post is initially made. (February)
  45. Paul and Fred post an email exchange they claim is between themselves and Atari, something they had not shown to Stardock and still have not provided to Stardock to evaluate. 
  46. Paul and Fred post what they claim is a Stardock settlement proposal in violation of federal rule 408. Stardock denies the accuracy. (March)
  47. Paul and Fred's PR firm targets Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell personally on Twitter for abuse with an inflammatory and completely inaccurate social media post. (March)
  48. Paul and Fred like a tweet that purports that these activities have cost Stardock up to 50% of potential sales and may lead to review bombing of the final game:  (March)
  49. To make clear that Stardock's concern is regarding the protection of its Star Control IP and not the sales of Star Control: Ur-Quan Masters, it decides that it will be suspend sales of the classic games until the dispute is resolved starting April 4. (March 2018).

Q: Don't Paul and Fred contend that the 1988 licensing agreement with Accolade has expired?

A: That is their position.  However, since the dispute began, Stardock has chosen to err on the side of caution and operate as if that is the case.   Stardock requested that GOG and Steam remove the games for sale pending a resolution.  The 1988 agreement, however, does not have anything to do with the Star Control trademarks were were always owned by Accolade and were assigned to Stardock.   

Stardock's ownership of the Star Control trademark is incontestable.  You can review the federal registration that dates back to the 1990s here.

Q: But isn't it true that Star Control: Origins has very similar gameplay to Star Control II? That you explore planets, travel through hyperspace to different star systems, meet with aliens? Couldn't their copyright of Star Control II mean that Star Control: Origins is too similar?

A: You cannot copyright an idea.  Putting aside that Star Control itself borrowed many ideas from many other games, copyright protects creative expression. Not game play.  

There are articles you can read that discuss this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_clone 

https://venturebeat.com/2013/03/16/defeating-mobile-game-clones-why-copyright-protection-is-not-enough/ 

https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/11752/is-it-legally-possible-to-make-a-clone-of-the-game 

Obviously, anyone who has ever played Angry Birds or Candy Crunch already knows this.

That said, Star Control: Origins is not a clone of Star Control II.  The 25-year gap in game technology allows Star Control: Origins to deliver a much richer experience.  So while the core concepts remain true: You are the captain of a starship traveling through this part of the galaxy, meeting aliens, engaging in battles, exploring planets, the implementation is very different.

In short: Gameplay clones aren't illegal and even if it were illegal, Star Control: Origins is not a clone. 

 

Q: Why does Stardock claim that Paul and Fred were not the creators of Star Control?

A: Paul and Fred were the designers of Star Control I and II.  In the credits, on the box and elsewhere they had previously officially listed themselves as either developers or designers.  

While Stardock has no objection to “creators” in the casual sense, legally, and when trying to promote a product in commerce, they are not. Most of the Copyrighted material people think of as being important to Star Control was created and owned by others. 

For 25 years, Designer was their official designation.   

It is Stardock's opinion that they have begun to focus on referring to themselves as "creators" in their marketing in order to give the impression that Ghosts of the Precursors would have the the same creative core as Star Control II.   This is not the case.

What most people do not realize is Star Control II had, in essence, the dream Sci-Fi team as mentioned in this 25th anniversary tribute. The lead animator went on to lead the animation at Pixar and is the director of the Minions movies.  Many of the alien designs were created by the artist who went on to design Darth Maul and other Star Wars and Marvel movie characters.  Many of the most quoted lines came from seasoned Sci-Fi writers.  The engaging music was created by others.

We respect Paul and Fred’s crucial contributions as well as the rest of the talented team who worked on Star Control.  

Q: Who owns the Star Control trademark?

A: Stardock is the legal owner of the federally registered trademark for Star Control.  You can view it here. https://www.trademarkia.com/star-control-75095591.html 

Q: What does Stardock want out of this lawsuit?  

A:  Our ONLY goal is to protect our ability to tell more stories in the Star Control multiverse.  We remain fans of Paul and Fred and their contributions to Star Control.  However, given the confusion they’ve created in the market by promoting their new game as a “true sequel” to Star Control II combined with their abuse of the DMCA system to take down even Star Control games they had no involvement with, we are forced to act to prevent them from continuing to create confusion.   

Consider some of your favorite games or movies. Now imagine if someone instrumental to the development of that game or movie went on to claim to be making a sequel to that game or movie without the consent of the owners of that trademark? What would be the result?

Q: But doesn't Paul and Fred own all the in-game IP?

A: Paul and Fred own whatever IP they created.  What that is remains to be seen. Stardock does not claim to own any copyrighted material within Star Control II which is why the new Star Control: Origins is set in its own universe with its own characters and story.

However, as of April 2018, neither Paul or Fred had any rights to any of the art and much of the writing in Star Control II. However, even if they did, it would be irrelevant as Stardock isn't using any copyrighted material from Star Control 1, 2, or 3 in the new Star Control games.

On the trademark side, simply because you were contracted to work on a game does not grant you the right to make a new game and claim it is related regardless of what copyrights you think you may own (otherwise, you could argue that Unity and Epic could start to make sequels to other people's games).

For example, Paul Reiche is the President of an Activision studio.  Blizzard is another Activision studio.  Stardock was once contracted to develop a StarCraft expansion (StarCraft: Retribution). One can imagine the response Stardock would receive it it were to announce a new game as a "direct sequel" to StarCraft: Retribution.

By contrast, not only did Paul and Fred announce their new game as a "direct" and later "true" sequel to Star Control, they even used the Star Control II box, that was acquired by Stardock, to promote it.

As much as we respect Paul and Fred, the fact is, Paul Reiche was contracted as an independent contractor (not as a company) by Accolade to develop Star Control for Accolade.  This is a fairly routine method that developers get products made (Stardock's own Fences, WindowBlinds, Groupy, IconPackager, etc. were developed using the same method).

Q: Do these legal issues have any impact on Star Control: Origins?

A: UPDATE:

Apparently yes.  Despite Star Control: Origins having nothing to do with Reiche and Ford's games, they have filed DMCA take down notices to Steam and GOG to take down Star Control: Origins.  They claim (with not specificity) that they own copyrights in Star Control: Origins

Game sites don't make legal judgments on the merits.  They simply remove the content.  No one, to our knowledge, has ever tried to do this on a shipping game before.  

You can read our response here.

 

Q: Why did Stardock trademark Ur-Quan Masters, Super Melee, and other names from the original games? 

A: Once Paul and Fred began to challenge the validity of our intellectual property we were forced to take steps to solidify our common law rights. Specifically, Paul and Fred have worked to try to separate Stardock's Star Control mark from its association with the classic games.  

The reason companies were bidding to acquire the Star Control trademarks and willing to pay $300,000 for it was for the association with the classic series.  The trademarks, being in active use in connection with the beloved classic series, made it valuable.  

When Paul and Fred began to seek to cancel the Star Control mark and make public statements that Star Control: Origins isn't related to the classic series Stardock felt obligated to respond by reinforcing its intellectual property rights to the classic series.  

As background: Stardock always had the common law trademark to Ur-Quan Masters. It's the sub-title to Star Control II after all and was, by Paul and Fred's admission, available in commerce on GOG even before Stardock was involved. Super-Melee is literally a promoted feature from Star Control. The alien names are so strongly associated with Star Control that if you Google Star Control aliens they come up as the first entry.  

They have made it very clear that they believe that they have the right to associate their new game with Star Control on the basis that they have previously licensed content to Star Control games. They have no such right.

Q: Why did Stardock really need to trademark the Star Control 2 alien names?

A: Star Control fans expect new Star Control games to have the Spathi, Ur-Quan, Orz, etc.   We originally chose not to include them in Star Control: Origins in deference to Paul and Fred who asked us not to.  

However, in December 2017, Paul and Fred posted:

This creates confusion because Stardock alone owns the Star Control universe. That doesn’t mean it owns any lore or stories created by others. It just means that Stardock has the right to determine what is canon in the Star Control universe.  

The Star Control aliens are associated with Star Control. That doesn’t mean Stardock can use expressions and stories of those aliens without permission. But it does mean Stardock has the right to create its own stories and expressions for the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc.

When Paul and Fred were contracted to develop Star Control I and Star Control II for Accolade, they were allowed to keep certain copyrights to the works they created. But all trademarks were explicitly defined as being owned by Accolade. 

Incidentally, their name was put into a diagram because they literally announced their game as a sequel to Star Control II.  They associated their new game with Star Control, not the other way around.

Q: Is Stardock trying to prevent Paul and Fred from making new games in their universe?

A: No.  Stardock wants them to create new games in the universe they created.  However, this needs to be handled in such a way that there is no confusion as to the relationship between Star Control and the works they licensed for Star Control II.

Q: If Stardock wants a new game from Paul and Fred, why did the settlement offer that Paul and Fred publicly posted that they claim came from Stardock demand that they "surrender" their IP?

A: It is regrettable that Paul and Fred chose to violate confidentiality and post, without context, a settlement offer.  Paul and Fred have been offered many settlement proposals with many different terms and are intended for negotiation by both parties to try to reach an amicable settlement.

Stardock paid over $300,000 for the Star acontrol IP which included the trademark and copyright to Star a Control 3. The Star Control brand is, in our view, far more valuable than any copyrighted material within a 25 year old DOS game. Source code and alien art. Nothing else, as far as we can discern, falls under copyright protection. You can’t copyright “lore” or timelines, or alien names, or game designs or UI.  

Thus, all we would gain would be the ability to have Ur-Quan that look just like the old Ur-Quan and space ships that look like the classic space ships. The greater value would be to make sure this kind of dispute didn’t happen again. But that value would still not overcome the damage they’ve caused in the market place due to the confusion on who owns Star Control and the ill will due to their PR company issuing false and misleading press releases and publicizing the dispute in a way to maximize ill will. Not to mention the considerable and rising legal costs.

None of this would prevent Paul and Fred from making a new game if that really is their desire. Stardock, in turn, would have been happy to license, free of charge, any IP they needed to make their new game.

Our respect for the work Paul and Fred did 25 years ago remains undiminished.  However, that respect does not give them the right to disrupt our product development at the 11th hour or misrepresent their new endeavors as the "true" sequel to our products.

Our dedication to bringing you a new Star Control game remains unchanged.  BETA 2 of Star Control: Origins is due in a few weeks.

For those interested in reading the details, our complete initial filing available online:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385277-Stardock-Legal-Complaint-2635-000-P-2017-12-08-1.html

Stardock 25th anniversary post documenting the creation of Star Control:

https://www.stardock.com/games/article/485810/star-control-ii-25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants  

 


Thank you for being fans of Star Control, and supporting our effort to make a great new game in the Star Control franchise.

And if you have questions that you’d like to see added to this post, feel free to reach out to me directly via Twitter at @kevinunangst

Kevin Unangst

Vice President, Marketing and Strategic Partnerships

Stardock Entertainment

1,789,822 views 728 replies
Reply #126 Top

Quoting Larsenex, reply 124

So if I may ask, what is the correct response to P&R's tweet above? There is what Frog wants to respond with vrs what is the correct response.... what is the correct one? 

They deleted it after I told them it would be a great exhibit.

I would prefer to continue to take the high road. 

Reply #127 Top

I work in an office and I am required to be professional on the phone while interacting with clients. The above post (shown by Frog) to me feels like it was written by someone not qualified to speak to the public or to customers. I can't believe that they are letting posts like that out especially while in litigation. 

Reply #128 Top

Quoting Larsenex, reply 127

I work in an office and I am required to be professional on the phone while interacting with clients. The above post (shown by Frog) to me feels like it was written by someone not qualified to speak to the public or to customers. I can't believe that they are letting posts like that out especially while in litigation. 

In the Political Machine, they're called "Smear Merchants"

https://politicalmachine.gamepedia.com/Smear_Merchant 

 

Reply #129 Top

My question to P&F would be...

Does your IP include the Hellbore Cannon? 

How about the Ilwrath (Romulan Falcon Mauler) and its Mauler Cannon?

The Hydran/Ur Quan DN?  Is that yours, too?

The Sophitxi and its Orion Suicide Bomb?

The Displacement Device and Tractor-Repulsor beam on a UFO?  Do they own that, too?

The Stinger fighters?  The Expanding Sphere Generator on the Khor Ah?  The Hiver Drive on the Supux?

The entire structure of all of SCII?  This is all "yours"?

Why don't Paul & Fred go have a conversation with Steve Cole about all that they claim to "own", and we'll see who is "humiliated" in the end...

 

Reply #130 Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 121

You sound like one of them.  Stop trying to defend yourself.  The people in your industry are pretty much the scum of the earth!

Nice dude nice, no I live in what's called the real world.

I've seen the IT community morph from in house specialists to professionals that service multiple businesses locally, which morphed into call centers which handle all clients via remote support.

I've also seen component stock logistics go from buying in bulk and filling warehouses then distributing to smaller warehouses for deployment to almost fully exclusive Just in Time shipments.

 

Rambling aside, SFB/SFU did nothing or the wrong things to promote and protect itself in recent decades which makes it an easy target to steal from and easily forgettable which is why Masters of Orion, Star Control II, and oh so many other seem to have space combat systems based off of those board games... or the creators of those games saw Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, or Star Trek and came up with working solutions on their own while possibly influenced by a number of other aspects.

 

Take Galactic Civilizations for example when I first played it I honestly thought it was inspired by Star Control, Sid Meier's Civilization, and Risk or Catan first impression I may have been completely wrong but it was my first impression of the game.

 

However all of that is academic now getting back to your obsession with SFB/SFU, it has little to no relevance when compared to what Stardock is currently going through.

 

SFB/SFU does NOT own any copyrights or trademarks from what I see, but does use some intellectual property with permission from Paramount Studios... which means unless someone copies the Paramount IP from SFB/SFU they can use anything/everything without so much as a head nod or offering a drink to the team of dedicated individuals who have likely spent several tens of thousands of hours in creating, maintaining, and updating the board game(s).  IE it's Mostly Open Domain and only protected by Branding, however this forum thread is not about SFB/SFU so the discussion is dead at least from my side.

 

Stardock V Fred & Paul is a whole different beast all together which isn't limited to a certain fandom set of individuals, when it comes to Fred, Paul, and Stardock unless I'm wrong about it, involves intellectual laws respected via treaties across boarders which can touch several layers of government laws within the USA and Canada which may very well cause the time frame of the case to shift, hopefully it makes it fast so Stardock doesn't have to spend too much $$$ in court costs, but I have the sinking feeling my daughter will Graduate 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade before we even see the end of the trial in sight.

Reply #131 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 96
Our job is to make a terrific Star Control game.  And yes, given these events, future Star Control games will have the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc. in them.

that seems awfully retaliatory...

 
Reply #132 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 126


Quoting Larsenex,

So if I may ask, what is the correct response to P&R's tweet above? There is what Frog wants to respond with vrs what is the correct response.... what is the correct one? 



They deleted it after I told them it would be a great exhibit.

I would prefer to continue to take the high road. 

Except that you kept it for the court case, right? There's no sense in being TOO high road when they're trying as hard as they can to ruin SCO (and, by association, Stardock itself). Deleting the tweet doesn't change the fact that they put it up in the first place, and it IS a great exhibit. I seriously hope you will use it.

Screw Paul and Fred. They don't deserve consideration anymore, they deserve to get everything coming to them.

Reply #133 Top

Quoting chapel976, reply 131


Quoting Frogboy,
Our job is to make a terrific Star Control game.  And yes, given these events, future Star Control games will have the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc. in them.



that seems awfully retaliatory...

They're trying to cancel our trademark.  You understand that right? Do you understand the consequences?

At this point, we need to protect anything and everything we can to ensure that we can make a new Star Control game without further harassment.

 

 

Reply #134 Top

Quoting bleybourne, reply 132


Quoting Frogboy,






Quoting Larsenex,



So if I may ask, what is the correct response to P&R's tweet above? There is what Frog wants to respond with vrs what is the correct response.... what is the correct one? 



They deleted it after I told them it would be a great exhibit.

I would prefer to continue to take the high road. 



Except that you kept it for the court case, right? There's no sense in being TOO high road when they're trying as hard as they can to ruin SCO (and, by association, Stardock itself). Deleting the tweet doesn't change the fact that they put it up in the first place, and it IS a great exhibit. I seriously hope you will use it.

Screw Paul and Fred. They don't deserve consideration anymore, they deserve to get everything coming to them.

I've been through a lot of litigation over the years.  You don't hear about it because the parties keep it private and let the legal system do its job.  I've never seen anything like this.  

So yea, I think it is important, for the record, for people to see that Paul and Fred say one thing and do another.  This is what we've been dealing with for months. 

It's been very disheartening.

Reply #135 Top

this must be what a child of divorce feels like...

Also... why the hell are we talking about Star Fleet Battles so often?

Did Spacewar rip off SFB too?

Reply #136 Top

Quoting chapel976, reply 135

why the hell are we talking about Star Fleet Battles so often?

Did Spacewar rip off SFB too?

Oh god, now you've done it...

(ducks)

Reply #137 Top

Pyro, you just don't understand the actual nature of the situation.  When it comes to space ship games, all roads lead to SFB.  Just as with RPGs, all roads lead to D&D.  Add in Avalon Hill, and these are the three "Great Grandparents" of the entire modern gaming world.  There are almost no games that don't trace their heratige back to one of these three.  What were known as "The Big Three", the three games that were the pillars that supported the entire hobbyist game industry for over 20 years.  When these three stopped being the dominant selling games, that entire industry immediately collapsed.  The modern game industry owes its entire existence to "The Big Three" of the hobbyist game industry.  If you are talking about Star Control II, that was one of the most blatant and obvious thefts of the Star Fleet Universe.  You simply don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

Here's a little Star Trek history for you.  Here is where all of the ships of the Star Trek universe, other than the 4 or 5 seen on ST:TOS actually came from...

Gene Roddenberry started it by working out details of the ship design of Enterprise.  Warp core/anti-reactor, only dilithium crystals can handle channeling that energy to the warp nacelles, etc.  By Roddenberry, warp nacelles only come in pairs and must have a direct line of sight too each other.  Roddenberry started it off with really just a handful of details like this about how Enterprise actually functioned.  Modelers who like doing ships immediately started building USS Enterprise alongside their Age of Sail/WW1/WW2 ships.  Franz Joseph, a modeler, created a book of blue prints called the Star Fleet Technical Manual.  Lou Zocci made the first Star Trek game.  Steve Cole, who knew both Lou Zocci and Franz Joseph, put those two things together and SFB was heavily inspired by Franz Joseph's Technical Manual, Lou Zocci's game, a WWI naval game called "Jutland", and the TOS episode "Balance of Terror".  These people are where most of the "engineering lore" that the world thinks comes from Star Trek actually came from.  Gene Roddenberry lit a spark in the late 1960's, and by the time he came back modelers and gamers had turned his single ship into a fleet over 100 different classes/variants.  This is why SFB is honored in ST:TNG on a somewhat regular basis.  The SFU was the end result of the chain that literally created the Federation Star Fleet, and everyone elses, other than Enterprise, Klingon D7, Romulan Warbird, and Tholian Patrol Craft. 

In many ways, Star Trek owes as much to SFB as SFB owes to Star Trek.  It is not just some license holder who made Star Trek games.  The SFU made what you know as Star Trek as much as Star Trek did.  You just don't know the history, and you have no idea what you are talking about.  Gene Roddenberry created Enterprise and a few other ships.  Franz Joseph and Steve Cole created the vast majority of what you mistakenly believe is Star Trek.  When it comes to the ships and technology, the SFU created far more of it than Gene Roddenberry and Paramount did.

But, to the point of this discussion, pretty much every space ship game that you've ever seen was plagiarizing the Star Fleet Universe.  None more so that Master of Orion and Star Control.  And, again, when it comes to Master of Orion the entire point was to plagiarize the SFU without a license.  I know that story, I know that to be a fact.  In Star Control's case, they were doing the same exact thing.  That is blatantly obvious and has been known by SFU fans since it was originally released.  This is not a new discussion for us, only for you... because you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.  It's plagiarism.  Theft.  When it comes to the SFU, that's what the computer game industry does... they steal from it and claim credit for it trying to make themselves look like geniuses.

Master of Orion, Star Control, Rules of Engagement, Faster Than Light... the list goes on and on and on.  Those are all OUR GAMES, not theirs.  They STOLE them from us.  And then they look us right in the face and tell us that we aren't even qualified to be designing games, because they are the scum of the earth.  Talentless hacks and thieves who make their reputations by stealing the work of people who have been making games since before they were born while insisting that they are brilliant geniuses and we aren't even qualified to do the job.  They are the most arrogant, and incompetent, group of people to ever walk the face of the earth.

Welcome back to reality.

Reply #138 Top

Quoting chapel976, reply 135

this must be what a child of divorce feels like...

Also... why the hell are we talking about Star Fleet Battles so often?

Did Spacewar rip off SFB too?

Well good job, Chapel! Now you've done it. I'll be hiding in my bunker for the next few days.  Good day, sir!

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Reply #139 Top

For my next trick, I'll get Steve Russell to send a C&D to everyone here! And Star Trek. Spacewar predates them ALL!

But seriously... Who the hell is Kavik Kang and why am I wandering through so many walls of text?

Reply #140 Top

Quoting chapel976, reply 139

For my next trick, I'll get Steve Russell to send a C&D to everyone here! And Star Trek. Spacewar predates them ALL!

But seriously... Who the hell is Kavik Kang and why am I wandering through so many walls of text?

Ok.  That's it, Chapel.  Christmas is canceled.  Are you happy? 

Reply #141 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 140

Ok.  That's it, Chapel.  Christmas is canceled.  Are you happy? 

No but I got some laughs out of the few above comments, craft brew be getting sent out to you two soon.

Reply #142 Top

Quoting chapel976, reply 139

For my next trick, I'll get Steve Russell to send a C&D to everyone here! And Star Trek. Spacewar predates them ALL!

But seriously... Who the hell is Kavik Kang and why am I wandering through so many walls of text?

Paul & Fred are seeing the posts here.  They saw what I had to say last week, and yet they are still claiming that Star Control was entirely their idea.  They call Stardock "thieves".  At worst, Stardock was duped by Atari  Paul & Fred, on the other hand, literally are "IP thieves".  They stole Steve Cole's Star Fleet Universe, that's what Star Control is.  The integrated Star Fleet Universe.  They demand Stardock not use the term "Super Melee".  "Super Melee" is entirely SFB, with all SFB technologies, even some SFB ships, and the SFB combat environment.  "Hellbore Cannons", etc.  Star Control II was 90% the SFU and Steve Cole.  They are the only "thieves" involved in this discussion.

Then, on top of that, Paul & Fred.  The people who made Master of Orion.  All of the people who intentionally stole the reputation of the SFU trying to make themselves look like geniuses, pretty much stole my life from me.  Had SFB had the reputation it always deserved, had they not STOLEN that reputation... I would have been making computer games since the early to mid 1990s.  My Pirate Dawn Universe would already exist, all 14 games of it.

They want to go around calling people thieves, fine.  I'm here to call them thieves.  They stole Steve's games, and my life.

In the spirit of the PDU, I'll paraphrase a song lyric just for Paul & Fred...

"A little bit of Pirate Lord in your life..."

Reply #143 Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 142


Quoting chapel976,

For my next trick, I'll get Steve Russell to send a C&D to everyone here! And Star Trek. Spacewar predates them ALL!

But seriously... Who the hell is Kavik Kang and why am I wandering through so many walls of text?



Paul & Fred are seeing the posts here.  They saw what I had to say last week, and yet they are still claiming that Star Control was entirely their idea.  They call Stardock "thieves".  At worst, Stardock was duped by Atari  Paul & Fred, on the other hand, literally are "IP thieves".  The stole Steve Cole's Star Fleet Universe, that's what Star Control is.  The integrated Star Fleet Universe.  They demand Stardock not use the term "Super Melee".  "Super Melee" is entirely SFB, with all SFB technologies, even some SFB ships, and the SFB combat environment.  "Hellbore Cannons", etc.  Star Control II was 90% the SFU and Steve Cole.  They are the only "thieves" involved in this discussion.

Then, on top of that, Paul & Fred.  The people who made Master of Orion.  All of the people who intentionally stole the reputation of the SFU trying to make themselves look like geniuses, pretty much stole my life from me.  Had SFB had the reputation it always deserved, had they not STOLEN that reputation... I would have been making computer games since the early to mid 1990s.  My Pirate Dawn Universe would already exist, all 14 games of it.

They want to go around calling people thieves, fine.  I'm here to call them thieves.  They stole Steve's games, and my life.

In the spirit of the PDU, I'll paraphrase a song lyric just for Paul & Fred...

"A little by of Pirate Lord in your life..."


They are definitely seeing these posts.  

Reply #144 Top

Quoting Pyro411, reply 141

craft brew be getting sent out to you two soon.

If there's a beer out of all of this....count me in...;)

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Reply #145 Top

I thought of a great example...

One of the longest serving members of the SFB Staff is John Berg.  He's been running a campaign called Galactic Conquests for many, many years now.  He'd probably be able to throw together a "Star Control II Campaign" in about a week.  One of the Prime Directive guys could put together the adventure, pulling all of the actual text from SCII.  From Bruce Graw's Babylon 5 Wars, we already have the Star Conrol II ships as SSDs.

By this weekend, we could have you playing Star Control II, EXACTLY Star Control II, as a table top game.  You could begin the adventure this weekend if we wanted to put the time into it to make that happen for you.  It would take so long for you to play this out, that we would only need the first 20% of SCII ready by this weekend.  We'd easily stay ahead of you, we'd be done in a month and it would take you at least a year to play Star Control II out as Galactic Conquests/Prime Directive/Star Fleet Battles.

We can do this because it all already exists.  We just need the time to arrange the story stuff into a campaign that is waiting for you to encounter, and for John to do the Star Control galactic map.  Just prepare the specific content for you.  ALL ASPECTS of Star Control II as a game already exist, it's just a scenario that we would need to make for you to play.  We even already have the Star Control II ship SSDs from SFB's step-brother Babylon 5 Wars.

 

Reply #146 Top

I don't know if Fred and Paul played Starfleet Battles, but even if they did the biggest influence on Melee is clearly Spacewar. Which was one of the first major computer games and was made in 1962, so it predates Starfleet Battles and even Star Trek. Most of the basics of Melee are there in primitive form - two ships fighting with a top-down view, the central gravity well, screen wraparound, inertia. Star Control polished and "modernized" it and added unique ship abilities. You can play a recreation of it here:

http://www.masswerk.at/spacewar/

Reply #147 Top

Quoting joel_ds, reply 146

I don't know if Fred and Paul played Starfleet Battles, but even if they did the biggest influence on Melee is clearly Spacewar. Which was one of the first major computer games and was made in 1962, so it predates Starfleet Battles and even Star Trek. Most of the basics of Melee are there in primitive form - two ships fighting with a top-down view, the central gravity well, screen wraparound, inertia. Star Control polished and "modernized" it and added unique ship abilities. You can play a recreation of it here:

http://www.masswerk.at/spacewar/

And there was me thinking I was mad when once running a Csirac emulator ....;)

[somewhat older than that].

Reply #148 Top

Quoting joel_ds, reply 146

I don't know if Fred and Paul played Starfleet Battles, but even if they did the biggest influence on Melee is clearly Spacewar. Which was one of the first major computer games and was made in 1962, so it predates Starfleet Battles and even Star Trek. Most of the basics of Melee are there in primitive form - two ships fighting with a top-down view, the central gravity well, screen wraparound, inertia. Star Control polished and "modernized" it and added unique ship abilities. You can play a recreation of it here:

http://www.masswerk.at/spacewar/

that's... like... exactly what I posted. 

Reply #149 Top

I'm just gonna leave this here for a sec.

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Reply #150 Top

Somewhat older....and real....;)