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Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Given the ongoing discussion of the legal dispute between Stardock and Paul Reiche and Fred Ford, designers of Star Control I and II, I wanted to take time to make Stardock's position clear and address inaccuracies that have been promoted.

As the need arises, I’ll continue to update this post with additional questions and answers.

Q: What are the issues in dispute?

A: On the eve of launch of the beta of Star Control: Origins in October 2017, a game Stardock has spent the past four years working on, Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford, the designers of Star Control II for Accolade 25 years ago announced a new game, Ghosts of the Precursors as a “direct” sequel to Star Control even going so far as to promote it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.

They did this despite knowing Stardock had acquired the Star Control IP in 2013 and knowing before hand our announcement schedule. Their actions created confusion in the market as to the origin of Star Control games which is why we have trademark laws. 

When Stardock asked that they cease and desist marketing their game as a sequel to Star Control they refused and began demanding that the sale of the DOS games, which had been on sale continuously since before Stardock acquired the IP and for which they had been receiving royalties for during the entire time cease and began to disparage Stardock publicly in the press. 

Despite Stardock's best efforts to reach a private, mutually beneficial co-existence agreement, Paul and Fred responded with increasingly hostile, misleading public attacks and served Steam and GOG with DMCA take-down notices on all of the classic DOS games, including Star Control 3 which they had no involvement with all while continuing to promote their new game as the "true" sequel to Star Control.

In addition, Paul Reiche and Fred Ford also began to claim that various features of Star Control: Origins violated their copyrights such as the ship designer, user interface similarities and other elements that are not subject to copyright protection (you can’t copyright an idea and Star Control itself was inspired by many other games). They also began to demand special access to Star Control: Origins to inspect it and demanded the removal of the ship designer,

As a result of their broad interpretation of what they believe they have rights to combined with their willingness to instruct their lawyers to issue a DMCA take down notices, even on titles in which they had no involvement in, combined with their refusal to cease promoting their game as the sequel to Star Control, Stardock was forced to file a complaint over their continuing trademark infringement.

In retaliation, Reiche and Ford filed a countersuit seeking to cancel the Star Control trademark and for copyright infringement due to the sale of the classic Star Control games on GOG and Steam and are even suing GOG despite the fact that Reiche and Ford were the ones who claim to have helped get the classic Star Control games onto GOG.

Q: Why did Stardock file the initial lawsuit against Paul and Fred?

A: We had no choice after Paul and Fred filed DMCA claims against the distribution not only of Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which they admit they had no involvement.  The DMCA claims were reversed, but it was clear that our ability to create more experiences in the Star Control multiverse for fans would be at risk if they are allowed to continue to misrepresent their new game as being associated with Star Control without a license while simultaneously making broad, unsupportable claims of ownership on ideas and concepts that are present not just in Star Control games but games in general.  

Q: How did these unfortunate events come to pass?

A: Here is a timeline of the order of events:

  1. Stardock acquires the Star Control brand, copyright to Star Control 3, the license to use the Star Control classic characters, lore and the right to distribute the classic DOS games.  The DOS games are already available on GOG  with Atari listed as the publisher. (2013)
  2. Stardock discuss plans for the new Star Control.  They state that their employment by Activision prevents them from working on a new Star Coxntrol game and request that we not use the aliens from Star Control 2 but do not contest Stardock's right to do so.  (2013)
  3. Upon learning that Activision has blocked their ability to be involved and that Paul and Fred hope to one day to continue their stories, Stardock offers to transfer its rights to Star Control to them, thus uniting the Star Control brand with Paul and Fred's licensed IP.  (2013)
  4. Paul and Fred ask what Stardock acquired from Atari to which Stardock responds: The trademark, assets to Star Control 3 and the right to sell distribute, market and promote the original trilogy.
  5. Paul acknowledges Stardock's position and asks how much it cost.
  6. Paul and Fred politely decline the offer to acquire the Star Control IP. (2013)
  7. Stardock announces a reboot of Star Control and explicitly states that it will not include the characters from the classic series out of respect for Paul and Fred. (2013)
  8. Stardock spends the next 4 years and millions of dollars developing Star Control: Origins. (2013-2017)
  9. Stardock provides Paul and Fred regular updates on progress including video of pre-alpha footage, design notes, screenshots.  Relations are amicable and supportive. (2013-2017)
  10. Stardock updates Paul and Fred on Star Control: Origins release schedule and begins planning its 25th anniversary which will include releasing the classic games onto more channels.  Stardock asks if there would be any interest in having SC2 ships appear in Super-Melee. The games are submitted and approved by Steam in preparation (Summer 2017).
  11. Paul and Fred contact Stardock to inform them that they will be announcing a new game that will utilize the characters from their universe.  (Fall 2017)
  12. Stardock is both pleased and concerned about the timing of their plan, points out the licensing agreement would allow Stardock to use their IP (albeit at a higher royalty than Stardock was hoping for). Stardock asks that they coordinate these announcements together ensure there is no confusion and about the games appearing competitive. (Fall 2017)   
  13. Paul and Fred state they plan to make a sequel to Star Control II which would violate Stardock's trademark rights (you can't claim your product is a sequel to another company's product).  Paul and Fred also assert that Stardock does not have a license to their IP.
  14. In the email below Paul and Fred state that each party should work within its respective rights: Stardock having the Star Control trademarks and Paul and Fred owning all the IP rights to the works they created. Note that at this point, Paul and Fred recognized that owning the registration to the Star Control trademark also includes many common law trademarks. Hence "trademarks" plural.
  15. Stardock responds stating that as far as Stardock is aware, while Paul and Fred own the IP they created, Stardock does have an active licensing agreement that controls how that IP can and can't be used.  Stardock also reiterates that it has not used this license out of respect for Paul and Fred. (October 2017)
  16. Stardock states its concern at the idea of Paul and Fred representing their game as a "direct sequel", asks to schedule a call to discuss.  Note that at this point, Brad, like many, is under the impression that Paul and Fred essentially created Star Control on their own, a two-man team with licensed music was not uncommon thing back in 1992 (Stardock later re-evaluates that position after learning that the project had a large budget for 1990 and immense talent on it). (October 2017)
  17. Paul and Fred respond that they simply don't agree but provide no evidence as to why the licensing agreement would have expired. (October 2017)
  18. Stardock provides its reviewed legal position.  Stardock isn't using any IP from the classic games other than the right to market and sell them as they have been for several years.  (October 2017)
  19. Stardock points out that it has a license to the IP to use provided it pays a royalty of 10% (which is why Stardock has asked in the past for a new licensing agreement as 10% is too much for a cameo of a classic character). Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell suggests talking on the phone to iron things out. (October 2017).
  20. Email includes proposal:
  21. Paul and Fred refuse Stardock's proposal and begin to demand changes to Star Control: Origins.
  22. Paul and Fred, knowing the date Stardock was planning to announce the Fleet Battles beta, preemptively announce Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control II; use the Star Control II box (which is owned by Stardock) as the only art on the page for it; promote it to the media and to social media as the "true" sequel to Star Control.  (October)
  23. Despite having just stated that their efforts should be "separated" by each parties rights (Stardock with the trademarks) Paul and Fred almost immediately violate that understanding by using the Star Control trademarks throughout their announcement.
  24. The Star Control trademark is mentioned 4 times in the announcement, each with an (R) without mentioning Stardock leading a reasonable consumer to believe it is their mark (Ghosts of the Precursors is listed once). 
  25. Paul and Fred claim they "released" Star Control II on the same page that shows Star Control II with the Accolade mark misleading the relationship between Accolade and Paul and Fred (who, regardless of their tremendous work, were contracted by Accolade to create content that was then licensed into Accolade's product).
  26. The media follow-up by referring to it as "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors". (October)
  27. Paul and Fred promote the idea that it's Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors and not its own game:
  28. The above is one example among dozens.
  29. Paul and Fred publicize coverage of their new game with each post using the Star Control mark but not a single one using the term "Ghosts of the Precursors".  Looking below, what's the name of their new game?
  30. Many posts and articles appear, endorsed by Paul and Fred that state that their new game is a "direct sequel" to Star Control.  Some refer to it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.
  31. Stardock moves forward on its 25th anniversary plans, release the beta of Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles beta and relaunches the classic DOS games for the 25th anniversary on Steam. (October)
  32. Paul and Fred's attorney contacts Stardock's CEO.  This is the first time lawyers have been involved.  Lawyers take over. (October)
  33. Paul and Fred begin to demand that Stardock begin policing the Star Control community for fan art that they believe violates their rights (including members of this forum and on Steam). (October)
  34. Paul and Fred begin demanding the removal of features from Star Control: Origins including the ship designer (a feature that has been part of Stardock's games for over a decade). (October)
  35. Paul and Fred begin demanding insider builds of Star Control: Origins for inspection and begin insisting various broad features are their property despite having no right to do so. (October)
  36. Paul and Fred reject numerous attempts to create a co-existence agreement that would permit Ghosts of the Precursors to go forward independently.   (November)
  37. Paul and Fred insist they have the right to associate their game with Stardock's trademarks including referring to their game as the "true" sequel to Star Control. (November)
  38. Paul and Fred demand that the DOS games be removed from distribution while still providing no evidence to support their claim that the agreement had expired. (November)
  39. Paul and Fred begin to make public defamatory blog posts and tweets about Stardock. (December)
  40. Paul and Fred file DMCA notices against Steam and GOG not just for Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which Stardock holds the federally registered copyright for and that Paul and Fred had no involvement in. (December)
  41. Stardock's attorneys file a suit against Paul and Fred for trademark infringement and other causes of action. (December)
  42. Paul and Fred's attorney files a lawsuit against Stardock alleging copyright infringement and other causes of action. (February).
  43. Paul and Fred's PR firm releases a press release to the wire services accusing Stardock of "copyright theft" do press interviews attacking Stardock. (February)
  44. This post is initially made. (February)
  45. Paul and Fred post an email exchange they claim is between themselves and Atari, something they had not shown to Stardock and still have not provided to Stardock to evaluate. 
  46. Paul and Fred post what they claim is a Stardock settlement proposal in violation of federal rule 408. Stardock denies the accuracy. (March)
  47. Paul and Fred's PR firm targets Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell personally on Twitter for abuse with an inflammatory and completely inaccurate social media post. (March)
  48. Paul and Fred like a tweet that purports that these activities have cost Stardock up to 50% of potential sales and may lead to review bombing of the final game:  (March)
  49. To make clear that Stardock's concern is regarding the protection of its Star Control IP and not the sales of Star Control: Ur-Quan Masters, it decides that it will be suspend sales of the classic games until the dispute is resolved starting April 4. (March 2018).

Q: Don't Paul and Fred contend that the 1988 licensing agreement with Accolade has expired?

A: That is their position.  However, since the dispute began, Stardock has chosen to err on the side of caution and operate as if that is the case.   Stardock requested that GOG and Steam remove the games for sale pending a resolution.  The 1988 agreement, however, does not have anything to do with the Star Control trademarks were were always owned by Accolade and were assigned to Stardock.   

Stardock's ownership of the Star Control trademark is incontestable.  You can review the federal registration that dates back to the 1990s here.

Q: But isn't it true that Star Control: Origins has very similar gameplay to Star Control II? That you explore planets, travel through hyperspace to different star systems, meet with aliens? Couldn't their copyright of Star Control II mean that Star Control: Origins is too similar?

A: You cannot copyright an idea.  Putting aside that Star Control itself borrowed many ideas from many other games, copyright protects creative expression. Not game play.  

There are articles you can read that discuss this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_clone 

https://venturebeat.com/2013/03/16/defeating-mobile-game-clones-why-copyright-protection-is-not-enough/ 

https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/11752/is-it-legally-possible-to-make-a-clone-of-the-game 

Obviously, anyone who has ever played Angry Birds or Candy Crunch already knows this.

That said, Star Control: Origins is not a clone of Star Control II.  The 25-year gap in game technology allows Star Control: Origins to deliver a much richer experience.  So while the core concepts remain true: You are the captain of a starship traveling through this part of the galaxy, meeting aliens, engaging in battles, exploring planets, the implementation is very different.

In short: Gameplay clones aren't illegal and even if it were illegal, Star Control: Origins is not a clone. 

 

Q: Why does Stardock claim that Paul and Fred were not the creators of Star Control?

A: Paul and Fred were the designers of Star Control I and II.  In the credits, on the box and elsewhere they had previously officially listed themselves as either developers or designers.  

While Stardock has no objection to “creators” in the casual sense, legally, and when trying to promote a product in commerce, they are not. Most of the Copyrighted material people think of as being important to Star Control was created and owned by others. 

For 25 years, Designer was their official designation.   

It is Stardock's opinion that they have begun to focus on referring to themselves as "creators" in their marketing in order to give the impression that Ghosts of the Precursors would have the the same creative core as Star Control II.   This is not the case.

What most people do not realize is Star Control II had, in essence, the dream Sci-Fi team as mentioned in this 25th anniversary tribute. The lead animator went on to lead the animation at Pixar and is the director of the Minions movies.  Many of the alien designs were created by the artist who went on to design Darth Maul and other Star Wars and Marvel movie characters.  Many of the most quoted lines came from seasoned Sci-Fi writers.  The engaging music was created by others.

We respect Paul and Fred’s crucial contributions as well as the rest of the talented team who worked on Star Control.  

Q: Who owns the Star Control trademark?

A: Stardock is the legal owner of the federally registered trademark for Star Control.  You can view it here. https://www.trademarkia.com/star-control-75095591.html 

Q: What does Stardock want out of this lawsuit?  

A:  Our ONLY goal is to protect our ability to tell more stories in the Star Control multiverse.  We remain fans of Paul and Fred and their contributions to Star Control.  However, given the confusion they’ve created in the market by promoting their new game as a “true sequel” to Star Control II combined with their abuse of the DMCA system to take down even Star Control games they had no involvement with, we are forced to act to prevent them from continuing to create confusion.   

Consider some of your favorite games or movies. Now imagine if someone instrumental to the development of that game or movie went on to claim to be making a sequel to that game or movie without the consent of the owners of that trademark? What would be the result?

Q: But doesn't Paul and Fred own all the in-game IP?

A: Paul and Fred own whatever IP they created.  What that is remains to be seen. Stardock does not claim to own any copyrighted material within Star Control II which is why the new Star Control: Origins is set in its own universe with its own characters and story.

However, as of April 2018, neither Paul or Fred had any rights to any of the art and much of the writing in Star Control II. However, even if they did, it would be irrelevant as Stardock isn't using any copyrighted material from Star Control 1, 2, or 3 in the new Star Control games.

On the trademark side, simply because you were contracted to work on a game does not grant you the right to make a new game and claim it is related regardless of what copyrights you think you may own (otherwise, you could argue that Unity and Epic could start to make sequels to other people's games).

For example, Paul Reiche is the President of an Activision studio.  Blizzard is another Activision studio.  Stardock was once contracted to develop a StarCraft expansion (StarCraft: Retribution). One can imagine the response Stardock would receive it it were to announce a new game as a "direct sequel" to StarCraft: Retribution.

By contrast, not only did Paul and Fred announce their new game as a "direct" and later "true" sequel to Star Control, they even used the Star Control II box, that was acquired by Stardock, to promote it.

As much as we respect Paul and Fred, the fact is, Paul Reiche was contracted as an independent contractor (not as a company) by Accolade to develop Star Control for Accolade.  This is a fairly routine method that developers get products made (Stardock's own Fences, WindowBlinds, Groupy, IconPackager, etc. were developed using the same method).

Q: Do these legal issues have any impact on Star Control: Origins?

A: UPDATE:

Apparently yes.  Despite Star Control: Origins having nothing to do with Reiche and Ford's games, they have filed DMCA take down notices to Steam and GOG to take down Star Control: Origins.  They claim (with not specificity) that they own copyrights in Star Control: Origins

Game sites don't make legal judgments on the merits.  They simply remove the content.  No one, to our knowledge, has ever tried to do this on a shipping game before.  

You can read our response here.

 

Q: Why did Stardock trademark Ur-Quan Masters, Super Melee, and other names from the original games? 

A: Once Paul and Fred began to challenge the validity of our intellectual property we were forced to take steps to solidify our common law rights. Specifically, Paul and Fred have worked to try to separate Stardock's Star Control mark from its association with the classic games.  

The reason companies were bidding to acquire the Star Control trademarks and willing to pay $300,000 for it was for the association with the classic series.  The trademarks, being in active use in connection with the beloved classic series, made it valuable.  

When Paul and Fred began to seek to cancel the Star Control mark and make public statements that Star Control: Origins isn't related to the classic series Stardock felt obligated to respond by reinforcing its intellectual property rights to the classic series.  

As background: Stardock always had the common law trademark to Ur-Quan Masters. It's the sub-title to Star Control II after all and was, by Paul and Fred's admission, available in commerce on GOG even before Stardock was involved. Super-Melee is literally a promoted feature from Star Control. The alien names are so strongly associated with Star Control that if you Google Star Control aliens they come up as the first entry.  

They have made it very clear that they believe that they have the right to associate their new game with Star Control on the basis that they have previously licensed content to Star Control games. They have no such right.

Q: Why did Stardock really need to trademark the Star Control 2 alien names?

A: Star Control fans expect new Star Control games to have the Spathi, Ur-Quan, Orz, etc.   We originally chose not to include them in Star Control: Origins in deference to Paul and Fred who asked us not to.  

However, in December 2017, Paul and Fred posted:

This creates confusion because Stardock alone owns the Star Control universe. That doesn’t mean it owns any lore or stories created by others. It just means that Stardock has the right to determine what is canon in the Star Control universe.  

The Star Control aliens are associated with Star Control. That doesn’t mean Stardock can use expressions and stories of those aliens without permission. But it does mean Stardock has the right to create its own stories and expressions for the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc.

When Paul and Fred were contracted to develop Star Control I and Star Control II for Accolade, they were allowed to keep certain copyrights to the works they created. But all trademarks were explicitly defined as being owned by Accolade. 

Incidentally, their name was put into a diagram because they literally announced their game as a sequel to Star Control II.  They associated their new game with Star Control, not the other way around.

Q: Is Stardock trying to prevent Paul and Fred from making new games in their universe?

A: No.  Stardock wants them to create new games in the universe they created.  However, this needs to be handled in such a way that there is no confusion as to the relationship between Star Control and the works they licensed for Star Control II.

Q: If Stardock wants a new game from Paul and Fred, why did the settlement offer that Paul and Fred publicly posted that they claim came from Stardock demand that they "surrender" their IP?

A: It is regrettable that Paul and Fred chose to violate confidentiality and post, without context, a settlement offer.  Paul and Fred have been offered many settlement proposals with many different terms and are intended for negotiation by both parties to try to reach an amicable settlement.

Stardock paid over $300,000 for the Star acontrol IP which included the trademark and copyright to Star a Control 3. The Star Control brand is, in our view, far more valuable than any copyrighted material within a 25 year old DOS game. Source code and alien art. Nothing else, as far as we can discern, falls under copyright protection. You can’t copyright “lore” or timelines, or alien names, or game designs or UI.  

Thus, all we would gain would be the ability to have Ur-Quan that look just like the old Ur-Quan and space ships that look like the classic space ships. The greater value would be to make sure this kind of dispute didn’t happen again. But that value would still not overcome the damage they’ve caused in the market place due to the confusion on who owns Star Control and the ill will due to their PR company issuing false and misleading press releases and publicizing the dispute in a way to maximize ill will. Not to mention the considerable and rising legal costs.

None of this would prevent Paul and Fred from making a new game if that really is their desire. Stardock, in turn, would have been happy to license, free of charge, any IP they needed to make their new game.

Our respect for the work Paul and Fred did 25 years ago remains undiminished.  However, that respect does not give them the right to disrupt our product development at the 11th hour or misrepresent their new endeavors as the "true" sequel to our products.

Our dedication to bringing you a new Star Control game remains unchanged.  BETA 2 of Star Control: Origins is due in a few weeks.

For those interested in reading the details, our complete initial filing available online:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385277-Stardock-Legal-Complaint-2635-000-P-2017-12-08-1.html

Stardock 25th anniversary post documenting the creation of Star Control:

https://www.stardock.com/games/article/485810/star-control-ii-25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants  

 


Thank you for being fans of Star Control, and supporting our effort to make a great new game in the Star Control franchise.

And if you have questions that you’d like to see added to this post, feel free to reach out to me directly via Twitter at @kevinunangst

Kevin Unangst

Vice President, Marketing and Strategic Partnerships

Stardock Entertainment

1,789,720 views 728 replies
Reply #76 Top

I NEVER heard of Star Control until Stardock came along and started promoting it.

Where in the hell was FRED and PAUL in 2005 promoting the game? Where were they in 2009? 2011? Why only after there is a lawsuit do I suddenly become aware that the alleged creators of Star Control are pitching a fit because NOW they want to do a game and suddenly they are unable to do so? 

I visited their twitter page or whatever they call it. The way I am reading their plan is they desire to do GotP as a hobby on (their) time. ...Ok gotcha, so with no studio backing we can expect to see this game when? 2040?  Again my only thing to go on is never heard of these 'creators' until after they decided now was the right time to go and make a game and ooops we can't because we don't own the IP..poor us. 

Reply #77 Top

Quoting bleybourne, reply 75
Oh, I don't get an opinion?

Of course you do.  But to publicly accuse someone of acting in bad faith, it's pretty important to have some solid facts to back the accusation up.  To me, Paul not publishing his GotP ideas does not suffice to prove that he never intended to make the game.

Reply #78 Top

Quoting Larsenex, reply 76
Where in the hell was FRED and PAUL in 2005 promoting the game? Where were they in 2009? 2011?

In 2005, they were working at their company, Toys For Bob, which had just been bought by Activision.  In 2006, they launched a petition to convince Activision to let them make a sequel to Star Control II.  Activision was not convinced, and kept them working on other projects instead (most notably Skylanders).  But in the intervening years, they have been consistent in stating that they intended to do a sequel once it became possible.  Apparently, last year they finally got permission to do it, and made their announcement.

I NEVER heard of Star Control until Stardock came along and started promoting it.

You really should play SC2.  One of the free open-source versions (titled "The Ur-Quan Masters" due to trademark) can be found here.

Reply #79 Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 78

You really should play SC2.

Hey, we agree on something!

Yes, Larsinex, you should go and play SC2 (via the free Ur-Quan Masters project). It's pretty awesome.

Reply #80 Top

Well, that escalated quickly. 

To me this was just all bad timing. The timing of the Ghosts announcement falling so close to SCO's closed beta remains questionable. It isn't a stretch to think that the fact that Brad has been giving them regular SCO updates wet their appetite and inspired them to move their asses and finally create the game they've been procrastinating to do for years. Which is well within their legal bounds and not necessarily unethical.

This only became a pandora's box of cynicism because of the legal dispute. Had the legal terms been clear and agreed upon by both parties, we wouldn't be talking about ulterior motives or whatnot.

Reply #81 Top

Quoting tingkagol, reply 80
To me this was just all bad timing. The timing of the Ghosts announcement falling so close to SCO's closed beta remains questionable. It isn't a stretch to think that the fact that Brad has been giving them regular SCO updates wet their appetite and inspired them to move their asses and finally create the game they've been procrastinating to do for years.

The piece of data we don't have is exactly how much of the timing for GotP was within F&P's control, and how much was governed by Activision.  Perhaps that will come out in discovery for the suits.

Reply #82 Top

Quoting Lone_Utwig, reply 69

It is strange that there has been 0 info on GoP game since the announcement. Are F&P developing anything at all?

Developing a baseless resentment towards Stardock... That's about it.

+2 Loading…
Reply #83 Top

Quoting Hunam_, reply 82


Quoting Lone_Utwig,

It is strange that there has been 0 info on GoP game since the announcement. Are F&P developing anything at all?



Developing a baseless resentment towards Stardock... That's about it.

 

^^^ this...

Reply #84 Top

That's so sad ;( 

Reply #85 Top

If you read their blog,  it seems pretty clear that brad and stardock is not trying to reach a settlement, and has prior asked for permission to renew a license from fred and paul. Why would brad ask for a new license if fred and paul didnt own it? 

I suspect there are something that isnt quite right here, im  afraid.

If i am wrong correct me.

(Oct. 6, 2017 email from Paul to Brad Wardell)  “… It is important that our players are not confused about which game they are getting, so we need to clearly distinguish our respective projects.  That separation should fall along our respective rights, Stardock having purchased the Star Control trademarks and Fred and I owning all the IP rights to the works we created.

As we've said to you several times over the past years, we do not want Stardock to use any of our IP, and that remains our position today. To avoid consumer confusion, we must also pass on the DLC option you proposed.  Despite your suggestion below, you do not have a license to use our IP. All rights to our work reverted to us long ago. You (and Atari) previously acknowledged same. Further, time and again you have asked for a new license, notwithstanding our consistent rejections.  Kindly do not use our IP in your game. If already added, please remove it before release.

We too wish to see both projects succeed and are confident that with reasonable efforts on our respective parts, we can avoid any perceived conflict or confusion between them. …”

Initially both sides made moves toward compromise.   Our blog now includes the attribution “Star Control is a registered trademark of Stardock Systems, Inc”.  We describe Ghosts of the Precursors™ as “a sequel to the Ur-Quan Masters”.  We no longer use the #starcontrol hashtag.  Stardock removed images of our alien races from their website banner and they changed "SUPER-MELEE" to "Fleet Battles" in Origins.

But earlier this month we received an unfathomable settlement offer from Stardock.  Paraphrasing from legalese, it requires…

  1. Fred and Paul must surrender all their IP rights to the classic Star Control games to Stardock.
  2. Fred and Paul never again use the words “STAR CONTROL” or “GHOSTS OF THE PRECURSORS” or “THE UR-QUAN MASTERS”.
  3. For the next 5 years, Fred and Paul do not work on any game similar to the classic Star Control games.
  4. Fred and Paul issue a public apology to Stardock.
  5. Fred and Paul never again challenge Stardock’s rights to STAR CONTROL trademark or STAR CONTROL 3 copyright.
  6. Fred and Paul pay Stardock $225,000.
  7. Fred and Paul never again call themselves the “creators” of the classic Star Control games.

And if their intent wasn’t clear enough, Stardock has now also filed for the trademarks:“The Ur-Quan Masters”, “Melnorme”, “VUX”, Pkunk”, “Ilwrath”, “Chenjesu”, “Androsynth”, “Spathi”,  “SUPER-MELEE”, “Syreen”, “Ur-Quan”, “Orz” and “Yehat”.

Fred and I still believe in the ‘win-win’ scenario for both studios and both games, but given Stardock's recent actions, we seem headed into a world in which many hundreds of hours and many MILLIONS of dollars are spent on legal actions.  Those hours and that money will be lost – not spent on making both games cooler, more beautiful, more fun -- and ultimately that hurts players like you.

 

Taken from dogar and kazoon home page.

 

https://www.dogarandkazon.com/

 

 

seriously,  make a settlement and get on with life.

 

and that is a typically american greedy, time and moneywasting lawsuit.

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #86 Top

If this is accurate, it makes it difficult to reconcile statements from Stardock senior staff that they are not trying to stop GotP from being made, with Stardock's settlement demand that P&F not make any such game for at least five years.

I would very much like to hear whether Stardock acknowledges that they made those settlement demands, and if so, why they feel that those demands are proportionate to the amount of damage that they may have suffered from Paul&Fred's infringements of the SC trademark.

Reply #87 Top

There are a lot of things wrong with what they post.

Here's a quick way to demonstrate their integrity:

Re-read their post.

… It is important that our players are not confused about which game they are getting, so we need to clearly distinguish our respective projects. That separation should fall along our respective rights, Stardock having purchased the Star Control trademarks and Fred and I owning all the IP rights to the works we created.

This was before the Ghosts announcement right?

How do you reconcile that statement with what they did next:

 

If you selectively pick and choose what you say and what others say you can create any impression you want.

Follow what people DO. Not what they say.

In their case, they propose something reasonable.

But then they turn around and:

1. Claim they, not Accolade, released Star Control (hence the creator issue)

2. They put the game box, that was owned by Accolade and is now owned by us, on their website.  

3. Said box is the literal exhibit used for the trademark of Star Control btw.  I am not sure how much more flagrant you can violate someone's trademarks.

4. They referred to it as a sequel to Star Control and the "true sequel" later.

So how can you reconcile what they say and what they do? 

And what was Stardock's public initial responses? Supportive even as they just flagrantly violated what they claimed they would not do.

And then they start with the public attacks on Stardock and myself.  For what? Because of the DOS games that have been sold for years? 

And then they file a DMCA request on us while attacking us.

And then when we file complaint about their behavior they have the audacity to try to cancel (kill) our rights to Star Control itself?  

I have a responsibility to my colleagues and don't have the luxury of making highly inflammatory, misleading blogs like they do.  So all I can say is this: Look at the actions, not the words.

IF they had actually done what they proposed, we wouldn't be here now.  

That's all I'm saying on that.  

 

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Reply #88 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 87
There are a lot of things wrong with what they post.

Here's a quick way to demonstrate their integrity:

Re-read their post.

[...]

Look at the actions, not the words.

I appreciate that Stardock may have reason to doubt them; I've already called attention to some of their actions that I felt weren't entirely forthright.  But a general accusation that they aren't sincere doesn't really dispute what they said.

So, following your advice, I'm trying to look at the actions on both sides:

Stardock has applied for a number of trademarks that it doesn't need unless it's intending to use the SC2 aliens in its games.  This contradicts assertions that it had no intention to use those aliens.

If Paul's post is accurate, Stardock has demanded that they stop making similar games for five years.  This contradicts statements that it isn't trying to prevent GotP from being made.

If Paul's post is accurate, Stardock has demanded that they give up the IP rights to the classic games.  This contradicts statements in the Q&A post that this case is about their trademark infringement, and not the rights to the classic games.

The trademark filings are pretty indisputable.  If you would like to deny making any of those settlement demands, I'll give the denial equal weight; I wasn't there, so in my mind it stays a disputed fact until someone posts clear evidence.  But otherwise, Stardock's actions are making it look like the aggressor here - not because it isn't justified in pursuing the trademark violation (it is), but because it seems to be pushing for an outcome that is disproportionate to the actual harm that violation caused.

Reply #89 Top

I can't help but notice their focus on "Super-Melee" as something that they seem to think belongs too them in some type of clear and inarguable way.

Super-Melee was, very obviously, a shameless rip-off and plagiarizing of Star Fleet Battles as an arcade game.  The only thing about "Super-Melee" that originated with them is the name "Super-Melee".  When they start saying "Super-Melee, our interpretation of SFB as an arcade game", I'll start taking them seriously about who created what.

As I've said before, I had more to do with "creating Super-Melee" than they did... as did dozens of other people.  All they did was copy that work without ever acknowledging that.  But then, ripping off SFB without giving SFB the credit has always been a tradition in the computer game industry, so they didn't do anything that hasn't been done in almost every computer game that has space ships in it.  That was actually one of the things I liked about GalCiv... it was one of the only computer games I ever played where I said too myself "these people have obviously never even heard of SFB."  It made GalCiv II a refreshing change of pace too me, a space ship game that had no hint of SFB in it.

 

Reply #90 Top

@Elestan

Quoting Elestan, reply 88

Stardock has applied for a number of trademarks that it doesn't need unless it's intending to use the SC2 aliens in its games.  This contradicts assertions that it had no intention to use those aliens.

Purely retaliatory action. I'd even send them a nasty email or two (not really, but I could).

 

Quoting Elestan, reply 88

If Paul's post is accurate, Stardock has demanded that they stop making similar games for five years.  This contradicts statements that it isn't trying to prevent GotP from being made.

I've not seen as IOTA of data confirming Paul's statement. What I've seen is quite the opposite of it.

 

Quoting Elestan, reply 88

If Paul's post is accurate, Stardock has demanded that they give up the IP rights to the classic games.  This contradicts statements in the Q&A post that this case is about their trademark infringement, and not the rights to the classic games.

Same as above.

Reply #91 Top

There's no turning back after those settlement demands. Hand over their rights to the IP for damages? I could never get behind that.

It's akin to stepping on your neighbor's grass and losing your entire house as penalty.

Reply #92 Top

You know... Thinking about this more, this has really annoyed me over the last hour or so...

I've spent my entire life being ignored by the people who make computer games.  I've always known what the core of the problem was.  Any time anyone ever made a game even remotely related to D&D everyone knew it.  It was always mentioned.  Any time anyone ever made a computer game based on Star Fleet Battles, D&D's little brother, it was like it was some kind of big secret.  Because those people always wanted to just take the credit for themselves and use SFB to make themselves look like geniuses.  Master of Orion... Star Control... Rules of Engagement... Sword of the Stars... The list just goes on and on.  In fact, SFB is no different from D&D.  It is the beginning of gaming history when it comes to space ship games, there has almost never been a space ship game ever made that can't trace its heritage back to Steve Cole's game.

If you had anything to do with D&D you had no problem at all finding a job in the computer game industry.  If you were SFB Staff... they had no idea what that meant.  Meanwhile, people like Paul & Fred made their reputations by plagiarizing us, literally their founding fathers considering the Steve's Staff was the first collaborative modern game design effort ever.  The model for how games are made today.  Everyone imitates us, refuses to ever acknowledge where their "great game" actually came from, and then they won't even let us into the business.  You begin to see why I talk to these people the way I do sometimes now, yes?

Star Control was not some amazing original thing.  It's D&D combined with SFB.  It was not at all an original idea.  You fly on the F&E map until you have an encounter, down to the SFB maop ("Super-Melee").  You do this within an adventure game (D&D).  Or Prime Directive if you want to keep it entirely within as the 3-way interlinked SFU (SFB, F&E, PD).  Super Melee is just SFB as an arcade game, and is loaded with obvious references too SFB in both art, technology, and game play.  I made a post about that earlier.

What did P&F actually do from a game design perspective, other than writing the story?  The "flagship flying through D&D" part of the game, and the lander game.  Everything else is the 3-way interlinked Star Fleet Universe.  Steve Cole and the SFB Staff.

We pretty much made Star Control, not Paul & Fred.  They made their reputations plagiarizing us, and we can't even get a job in their business!!!  And it's not just them, their whole industry has been ripping of the SFU, without ever giving it any credit, since the dawn of their time.  And we aren't even welcome in their business.

So I really mean what I said in my last post.  Until P&F start saying "Super Melee, our interpretation of SFB as an arcade game" I don't believe a word they say.  They made their reputation plagiarizing us, that's who they are.  I deserve more credit for how great you think their game was than they do, other than the story, and I can give you a few dozen other names who deserve as much or more of the credit for Star Control than I do.  All of us, more than Paul & Fred!

 

 

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Reply #93 Top

Quoting tingkagol, reply 91

It's akin to stepping on your neighbor's grass and losing your entire house as penalty.

Paul and Fred aren't stepping on Stardock's grass. They're trying to pull it out by the roots and salt the earth and then claim that it was Stardock's fault all along for stealing their grass.

Except it wasn't Paul and Fred's grass to start with. It was Activisions, and Stardock bought that grass from Activision quite legally.

Then offered to give Paul and Fred that grass at cost, and Paul and Fred told them to get fucked.

So no, it's not at all like what you say.

Reply #94 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 87

4. They referred to it as a sequel to Star Control and the "true sequel" later.

So how can you reconcile what they say and what they do?

I already posted this a few pages back but claiming #4 has made irreparable damage from the onset is questionable since you did originally reference GotP as a "true sequel to Star Control 2" yourself in the GotP thread in this forum and later corrected the self-inflicted trademark infringement to "sequel to the Ur-Quan story" (and so have P&F for their blog post). And since now that Stardock has filed for trademarks for all the SC2 aliens including "Ur-Quan", you might as well delete the GotP thread.

I'm sorry but Stardock has completely lost me with those settlement demands. Or maybe perhaps I'm just a newbie and overly sensitive to the inherent mudslinging in litigation and just need to grow some balls. So excuse me while I wallow in sadness.

Reply #95 Top

Quoting bleybourne, reply 93


Quoting tingkagol,

It's akin to stepping on your neighbor's grass and losing your entire house as penalty.



Paul and Fred aren't stepping on Stardock's grass. They're trying to pull it out by the roots and salt the earth and then claim that it was Stardock's fault all along for stealing their grass.

Except it wasn't Paul and Fred's grass to start with. It was Activisions, and Stardock bought that grass from Activision quite legally.

Then offered to give Paul and Fred that grass at cost, and Paul and Fred told them to get fucked.

So no, it's not at all like what you say.

Assuming all of that is accurate, does it really justify the surrender/forfeiture of all their Sc1-2 copyrights to Stardock?

Reply #96 Top

Quoting tingkagol, reply 94


Quoting Frogboy,

4. They referred to it as a sequel to Star Control and the "true sequel" later.

So how can you reconcile what they say and what they do?



I already posted this a few pages back but claiming #4 has made irreparable damage from the onset is questionable since you did originally reference GotP as a "true sequel to Star Control 2" yourself in the GotP thread in this forum and later corrected the self-inflicted trademark infringement to "sequel to the Ur-Quan story" (and so have P&F for their blog post). And since now that Stardock has filed for trademarks for all the SC2 aliens including "Ur-Quan", you might as well delete the GotP thread.

I'm sorry but Stardock has completely lost me with those settlement demands. Or maybe perhaps I'm just a newbie and overly sensitive to the inherent mudslinging in litigation and just need to grow some balls. So excuse me while I wallow in sadness.

I won't comment on the inaccuracies of their post here.  What I will say, broadly, that litigation is not pleasant.  

Personally speaking, once Paul and Fred filed to cancel the Star Control trademark, something we have invested millions of dollars in, I don't have a lot of sympathy for them.

As for my own error, there was a lot of behind the scenes assumptions that proved to be false.  And a lot of things were possible before they decided to go on a public smear campaign.

Our job is to make a terrific Star Control game.  And yes, given these events, future Star Control games will have the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc. in them.

 

Reply #97 Top

Quoting Hunam_, reply 90
I've not seen as IOTA of data confirming Paul's statement. What I've seen is quite the opposite of it.

Which is why I invited Stardock to deny it, it whole or in part; I wasn't going to take Paul's word for Stardock's demands without providing the opportunity to respond.  And they're still welcome to do so.  But Frogboy's reply was a general attack on Paul's credibility rather than a specific denial of anything they said.  Even if the general attack was well-founded, it doesn't refute Paul's claim.

Reply #98 Top

Quoting bleybourne, reply 93
Quoting tingkagol,


It's akin to stepping on your neighbor's grass and losing your entire house as penalty.



Paul and Fred aren't stepping on Stardock's grass. They're trying to pull it out by the roots and salt the earth and then claim that it was Stardock's fault all along for stealing their grass.

Except it wasn't Paul and Fred's grass to start with. It was Activisions, and Stardock bought that grass from Activision quite legally.

Then offered to give Paul and Fred that grass at cost, and Paul and Fred told them to get fucked.

So no, it's not at all like what you say.

This analogy doesn't really work, so I won't try to extend it.  But it's important to remember that Stardock and Paul both have rights here (Trademark and Copyright, respectively).  P&F appears to have fairly obviously, though temporarily, infringed the trademark, and Stardock appears to have temporarily infringed the copyright (in more minor ways).  But both sides now appear to be so angry that they are attempting to force the other into total surrender.  Without a full record of the communication, it's hard to verify who became unreasonable first.  But the position Paul claims to have taken going in (P&F make their game but don't use the name "Star Control", and Stardock makes SC:O without using any of Paul's universe) seems to be the one that most closely matches their legal rights, as I understand them (disclaimer: IANAL).  What is not clear given public information is whether Stardock was amenable to something along those lines, or whether it felt that it had already invested so much into using Paul's universe that it felt it had no choice but to try to force him to grant a license, using whatever leverage they can gather.

Reply #99 Top

It would be more persuasive, I think, if you re-read #87.  Moral equivalence is lazy.  Sometimes, there is just one bad guy and it's not us.

Reply #100 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 96
Personally speaking, once Paul and Fred filed to cancel the Star Control trademark, something we have invested millions of dollars in, I don't have a lot of sympathy for them.

Just to check, are you referring to their counterclaim, or did they try to cancel the trademark before then?

If before, then I would agree that that was a pretty aggressive move.  If you mean in their counterclaim, I think it's important to note that Stardock's complaint asserted facts that seemed designed to cancel their copyright, which is an equally nuclear-level attack on their IP.