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Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Given the ongoing discussion of the legal dispute between Stardock and Paul Reiche and Fred Ford, designers of Star Control I and II, I wanted to take time to make Stardock's position clear and address inaccuracies that have been promoted.

As the need arises, I’ll continue to update this post with additional questions and answers.

Q: What are the issues in dispute?

A: On the eve of launch of the beta of Star Control: Origins in October 2017, a game Stardock has spent the past four years working on, Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford, the designers of Star Control II for Accolade 25 years ago announced a new game, Ghosts of the Precursors as a “direct” sequel to Star Control even going so far as to promote it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.

They did this despite knowing Stardock had acquired the Star Control IP in 2013 and knowing before hand our announcement schedule. Their actions created confusion in the market as to the origin of Star Control games which is why we have trademark laws. 

When Stardock asked that they cease and desist marketing their game as a sequel to Star Control they refused and began demanding that the sale of the DOS games, which had been on sale continuously since before Stardock acquired the IP and for which they had been receiving royalties for during the entire time cease and began to disparage Stardock publicly in the press. 

Despite Stardock's best efforts to reach a private, mutually beneficial co-existence agreement, Paul and Fred responded with increasingly hostile, misleading public attacks and served Steam and GOG with DMCA take-down notices on all of the classic DOS games, including Star Control 3 which they had no involvement with all while continuing to promote their new game as the "true" sequel to Star Control.

In addition, Paul Reiche and Fred Ford also began to claim that various features of Star Control: Origins violated their copyrights such as the ship designer, user interface similarities and other elements that are not subject to copyright protection (you can’t copyright an idea and Star Control itself was inspired by many other games). They also began to demand special access to Star Control: Origins to inspect it and demanded the removal of the ship designer,

As a result of their broad interpretation of what they believe they have rights to combined with their willingness to instruct their lawyers to issue a DMCA take down notices, even on titles in which they had no involvement in, combined with their refusal to cease promoting their game as the sequel to Star Control, Stardock was forced to file a complaint over their continuing trademark infringement.

In retaliation, Reiche and Ford filed a countersuit seeking to cancel the Star Control trademark and for copyright infringement due to the sale of the classic Star Control games on GOG and Steam and are even suing GOG despite the fact that Reiche and Ford were the ones who claim to have helped get the classic Star Control games onto GOG.

Q: Why did Stardock file the initial lawsuit against Paul and Fred?

A: We had no choice after Paul and Fred filed DMCA claims against the distribution not only of Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which they admit they had no involvement.  The DMCA claims were reversed, but it was clear that our ability to create more experiences in the Star Control multiverse for fans would be at risk if they are allowed to continue to misrepresent their new game as being associated with Star Control without a license while simultaneously making broad, unsupportable claims of ownership on ideas and concepts that are present not just in Star Control games but games in general.  

Q: How did these unfortunate events come to pass?

A: Here is a timeline of the order of events:

  1. Stardock acquires the Star Control brand, copyright to Star Control 3, the license to use the Star Control classic characters, lore and the right to distribute the classic DOS games.  The DOS games are already available on GOG  with Atari listed as the publisher. (2013)
  2. Stardock discuss plans for the new Star Control.  They state that their employment by Activision prevents them from working on a new Star Coxntrol game and request that we not use the aliens from Star Control 2 but do not contest Stardock's right to do so.  (2013)
  3. Upon learning that Activision has blocked their ability to be involved and that Paul and Fred hope to one day to continue their stories, Stardock offers to transfer its rights to Star Control to them, thus uniting the Star Control brand with Paul and Fred's licensed IP.  (2013)
  4. Paul and Fred ask what Stardock acquired from Atari to which Stardock responds: The trademark, assets to Star Control 3 and the right to sell distribute, market and promote the original trilogy.
  5. Paul acknowledges Stardock's position and asks how much it cost.
  6. Paul and Fred politely decline the offer to acquire the Star Control IP. (2013)
  7. Stardock announces a reboot of Star Control and explicitly states that it will not include the characters from the classic series out of respect for Paul and Fred. (2013)
  8. Stardock spends the next 4 years and millions of dollars developing Star Control: Origins. (2013-2017)
  9. Stardock provides Paul and Fred regular updates on progress including video of pre-alpha footage, design notes, screenshots.  Relations are amicable and supportive. (2013-2017)
  10. Stardock updates Paul and Fred on Star Control: Origins release schedule and begins planning its 25th anniversary which will include releasing the classic games onto more channels.  Stardock asks if there would be any interest in having SC2 ships appear in Super-Melee. The games are submitted and approved by Steam in preparation (Summer 2017).
  11. Paul and Fred contact Stardock to inform them that they will be announcing a new game that will utilize the characters from their universe.  (Fall 2017)
  12. Stardock is both pleased and concerned about the timing of their plan, points out the licensing agreement would allow Stardock to use their IP (albeit at a higher royalty than Stardock was hoping for). Stardock asks that they coordinate these announcements together ensure there is no confusion and about the games appearing competitive. (Fall 2017)   
  13. Paul and Fred state they plan to make a sequel to Star Control II which would violate Stardock's trademark rights (you can't claim your product is a sequel to another company's product).  Paul and Fred also assert that Stardock does not have a license to their IP.
  14. In the email below Paul and Fred state that each party should work within its respective rights: Stardock having the Star Control trademarks and Paul and Fred owning all the IP rights to the works they created. Note that at this point, Paul and Fred recognized that owning the registration to the Star Control trademark also includes many common law trademarks. Hence "trademarks" plural.
  15. Stardock responds stating that as far as Stardock is aware, while Paul and Fred own the IP they created, Stardock does have an active licensing agreement that controls how that IP can and can't be used.  Stardock also reiterates that it has not used this license out of respect for Paul and Fred. (October 2017)
  16. Stardock states its concern at the idea of Paul and Fred representing their game as a "direct sequel", asks to schedule a call to discuss.  Note that at this point, Brad, like many, is under the impression that Paul and Fred essentially created Star Control on their own, a two-man team with licensed music was not uncommon thing back in 1992 (Stardock later re-evaluates that position after learning that the project had a large budget for 1990 and immense talent on it). (October 2017)
  17. Paul and Fred respond that they simply don't agree but provide no evidence as to why the licensing agreement would have expired. (October 2017)
  18. Stardock provides its reviewed legal position.  Stardock isn't using any IP from the classic games other than the right to market and sell them as they have been for several years.  (October 2017)
  19. Stardock points out that it has a license to the IP to use provided it pays a royalty of 10% (which is why Stardock has asked in the past for a new licensing agreement as 10% is too much for a cameo of a classic character). Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell suggests talking on the phone to iron things out. (October 2017).
  20. Email includes proposal:
  21. Paul and Fred refuse Stardock's proposal and begin to demand changes to Star Control: Origins.
  22. Paul and Fred, knowing the date Stardock was planning to announce the Fleet Battles beta, preemptively announce Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control II; use the Star Control II box (which is owned by Stardock) as the only art on the page for it; promote it to the media and to social media as the "true" sequel to Star Control.  (October)
  23. Despite having just stated that their efforts should be "separated" by each parties rights (Stardock with the trademarks) Paul and Fred almost immediately violate that understanding by using the Star Control trademarks throughout their announcement.
  24. The Star Control trademark is mentioned 4 times in the announcement, each with an (R) without mentioning Stardock leading a reasonable consumer to believe it is their mark (Ghosts of the Precursors is listed once). 
  25. Paul and Fred claim they "released" Star Control II on the same page that shows Star Control II with the Accolade mark misleading the relationship between Accolade and Paul and Fred (who, regardless of their tremendous work, were contracted by Accolade to create content that was then licensed into Accolade's product).
  26. The media follow-up by referring to it as "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors". (October)
  27. Paul and Fred promote the idea that it's Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors and not its own game:
  28. The above is one example among dozens.
  29. Paul and Fred publicize coverage of their new game with each post using the Star Control mark but not a single one using the term "Ghosts of the Precursors".  Looking below, what's the name of their new game?
  30. Many posts and articles appear, endorsed by Paul and Fred that state that their new game is a "direct sequel" to Star Control.  Some refer to it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.
  31. Stardock moves forward on its 25th anniversary plans, release the beta of Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles beta and relaunches the classic DOS games for the 25th anniversary on Steam. (October)
  32. Paul and Fred's attorney contacts Stardock's CEO.  This is the first time lawyers have been involved.  Lawyers take over. (October)
  33. Paul and Fred begin to demand that Stardock begin policing the Star Control community for fan art that they believe violates their rights (including members of this forum and on Steam). (October)
  34. Paul and Fred begin demanding the removal of features from Star Control: Origins including the ship designer (a feature that has been part of Stardock's games for over a decade). (October)
  35. Paul and Fred begin demanding insider builds of Star Control: Origins for inspection and begin insisting various broad features are their property despite having no right to do so. (October)
  36. Paul and Fred reject numerous attempts to create a co-existence agreement that would permit Ghosts of the Precursors to go forward independently.   (November)
  37. Paul and Fred insist they have the right to associate their game with Stardock's trademarks including referring to their game as the "true" sequel to Star Control. (November)
  38. Paul and Fred demand that the DOS games be removed from distribution while still providing no evidence to support their claim that the agreement had expired. (November)
  39. Paul and Fred begin to make public defamatory blog posts and tweets about Stardock. (December)
  40. Paul and Fred file DMCA notices against Steam and GOG not just for Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which Stardock holds the federally registered copyright for and that Paul and Fred had no involvement in. (December)
  41. Stardock's attorneys file a suit against Paul and Fred for trademark infringement and other causes of action. (December)
  42. Paul and Fred's attorney files a lawsuit against Stardock alleging copyright infringement and other causes of action. (February).
  43. Paul and Fred's PR firm releases a press release to the wire services accusing Stardock of "copyright theft" do press interviews attacking Stardock. (February)
  44. This post is initially made. (February)
  45. Paul and Fred post an email exchange they claim is between themselves and Atari, something they had not shown to Stardock and still have not provided to Stardock to evaluate. 
  46. Paul and Fred post what they claim is a Stardock settlement proposal in violation of federal rule 408. Stardock denies the accuracy. (March)
  47. Paul and Fred's PR firm targets Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell personally on Twitter for abuse with an inflammatory and completely inaccurate social media post. (March)
  48. Paul and Fred like a tweet that purports that these activities have cost Stardock up to 50% of potential sales and may lead to review bombing of the final game:  (March)
  49. To make clear that Stardock's concern is regarding the protection of its Star Control IP and not the sales of Star Control: Ur-Quan Masters, it decides that it will be suspend sales of the classic games until the dispute is resolved starting April 4. (March 2018).

Q: Don't Paul and Fred contend that the 1988 licensing agreement with Accolade has expired?

A: That is their position.  However, since the dispute began, Stardock has chosen to err on the side of caution and operate as if that is the case.   Stardock requested that GOG and Steam remove the games for sale pending a resolution.  The 1988 agreement, however, does not have anything to do with the Star Control trademarks were were always owned by Accolade and were assigned to Stardock.   

Stardock's ownership of the Star Control trademark is incontestable.  You can review the federal registration that dates back to the 1990s here.

Q: But isn't it true that Star Control: Origins has very similar gameplay to Star Control II? That you explore planets, travel through hyperspace to different star systems, meet with aliens? Couldn't their copyright of Star Control II mean that Star Control: Origins is too similar?

A: You cannot copyright an idea.  Putting aside that Star Control itself borrowed many ideas from many other games, copyright protects creative expression. Not game play.  

There are articles you can read that discuss this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_clone 

https://venturebeat.com/2013/03/16/defeating-mobile-game-clones-why-copyright-protection-is-not-enough/ 

https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/11752/is-it-legally-possible-to-make-a-clone-of-the-game 

Obviously, anyone who has ever played Angry Birds or Candy Crunch already knows this.

That said, Star Control: Origins is not a clone of Star Control II.  The 25-year gap in game technology allows Star Control: Origins to deliver a much richer experience.  So while the core concepts remain true: You are the captain of a starship traveling through this part of the galaxy, meeting aliens, engaging in battles, exploring planets, the implementation is very different.

In short: Gameplay clones aren't illegal and even if it were illegal, Star Control: Origins is not a clone. 

 

Q: Why does Stardock claim that Paul and Fred were not the creators of Star Control?

A: Paul and Fred were the designers of Star Control I and II.  In the credits, on the box and elsewhere they had previously officially listed themselves as either developers or designers.  

While Stardock has no objection to “creators” in the casual sense, legally, and when trying to promote a product in commerce, they are not. Most of the Copyrighted material people think of as being important to Star Control was created and owned by others. 

For 25 years, Designer was their official designation.   

It is Stardock's opinion that they have begun to focus on referring to themselves as "creators" in their marketing in order to give the impression that Ghosts of the Precursors would have the the same creative core as Star Control II.   This is not the case.

What most people do not realize is Star Control II had, in essence, the dream Sci-Fi team as mentioned in this 25th anniversary tribute. The lead animator went on to lead the animation at Pixar and is the director of the Minions movies.  Many of the alien designs were created by the artist who went on to design Darth Maul and other Star Wars and Marvel movie characters.  Many of the most quoted lines came from seasoned Sci-Fi writers.  The engaging music was created by others.

We respect Paul and Fred’s crucial contributions as well as the rest of the talented team who worked on Star Control.  

Q: Who owns the Star Control trademark?

A: Stardock is the legal owner of the federally registered trademark for Star Control.  You can view it here. https://www.trademarkia.com/star-control-75095591.html 

Q: What does Stardock want out of this lawsuit?  

A:  Our ONLY goal is to protect our ability to tell more stories in the Star Control multiverse.  We remain fans of Paul and Fred and their contributions to Star Control.  However, given the confusion they’ve created in the market by promoting their new game as a “true sequel” to Star Control II combined with their abuse of the DMCA system to take down even Star Control games they had no involvement with, we are forced to act to prevent them from continuing to create confusion.   

Consider some of your favorite games or movies. Now imagine if someone instrumental to the development of that game or movie went on to claim to be making a sequel to that game or movie without the consent of the owners of that trademark? What would be the result?

Q: But doesn't Paul and Fred own all the in-game IP?

A: Paul and Fred own whatever IP they created.  What that is remains to be seen. Stardock does not claim to own any copyrighted material within Star Control II which is why the new Star Control: Origins is set in its own universe with its own characters and story.

However, as of April 2018, neither Paul or Fred had any rights to any of the art and much of the writing in Star Control II. However, even if they did, it would be irrelevant as Stardock isn't using any copyrighted material from Star Control 1, 2, or 3 in the new Star Control games.

On the trademark side, simply because you were contracted to work on a game does not grant you the right to make a new game and claim it is related regardless of what copyrights you think you may own (otherwise, you could argue that Unity and Epic could start to make sequels to other people's games).

For example, Paul Reiche is the President of an Activision studio.  Blizzard is another Activision studio.  Stardock was once contracted to develop a StarCraft expansion (StarCraft: Retribution). One can imagine the response Stardock would receive it it were to announce a new game as a "direct sequel" to StarCraft: Retribution.

By contrast, not only did Paul and Fred announce their new game as a "direct" and later "true" sequel to Star Control, they even used the Star Control II box, that was acquired by Stardock, to promote it.

As much as we respect Paul and Fred, the fact is, Paul Reiche was contracted as an independent contractor (not as a company) by Accolade to develop Star Control for Accolade.  This is a fairly routine method that developers get products made (Stardock's own Fences, WindowBlinds, Groupy, IconPackager, etc. were developed using the same method).

Q: Do these legal issues have any impact on Star Control: Origins?

A: UPDATE:

Apparently yes.  Despite Star Control: Origins having nothing to do with Reiche and Ford's games, they have filed DMCA take down notices to Steam and GOG to take down Star Control: Origins.  They claim (with not specificity) that they own copyrights in Star Control: Origins

Game sites don't make legal judgments on the merits.  They simply remove the content.  No one, to our knowledge, has ever tried to do this on a shipping game before.  

You can read our response here.

 

Q: Why did Stardock trademark Ur-Quan Masters, Super Melee, and other names from the original games? 

A: Once Paul and Fred began to challenge the validity of our intellectual property we were forced to take steps to solidify our common law rights. Specifically, Paul and Fred have worked to try to separate Stardock's Star Control mark from its association with the classic games.  

The reason companies were bidding to acquire the Star Control trademarks and willing to pay $300,000 for it was for the association with the classic series.  The trademarks, being in active use in connection with the beloved classic series, made it valuable.  

When Paul and Fred began to seek to cancel the Star Control mark and make public statements that Star Control: Origins isn't related to the classic series Stardock felt obligated to respond by reinforcing its intellectual property rights to the classic series.  

As background: Stardock always had the common law trademark to Ur-Quan Masters. It's the sub-title to Star Control II after all and was, by Paul and Fred's admission, available in commerce on GOG even before Stardock was involved. Super-Melee is literally a promoted feature from Star Control. The alien names are so strongly associated with Star Control that if you Google Star Control aliens they come up as the first entry.  

They have made it very clear that they believe that they have the right to associate their new game with Star Control on the basis that they have previously licensed content to Star Control games. They have no such right.

Q: Why did Stardock really need to trademark the Star Control 2 alien names?

A: Star Control fans expect new Star Control games to have the Spathi, Ur-Quan, Orz, etc.   We originally chose not to include them in Star Control: Origins in deference to Paul and Fred who asked us not to.  

However, in December 2017, Paul and Fred posted:

This creates confusion because Stardock alone owns the Star Control universe. That doesn’t mean it owns any lore or stories created by others. It just means that Stardock has the right to determine what is canon in the Star Control universe.  

The Star Control aliens are associated with Star Control. That doesn’t mean Stardock can use expressions and stories of those aliens without permission. But it does mean Stardock has the right to create its own stories and expressions for the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc.

When Paul and Fred were contracted to develop Star Control I and Star Control II for Accolade, they were allowed to keep certain copyrights to the works they created. But all trademarks were explicitly defined as being owned by Accolade. 

Incidentally, their name was put into a diagram because they literally announced their game as a sequel to Star Control II.  They associated their new game with Star Control, not the other way around.

Q: Is Stardock trying to prevent Paul and Fred from making new games in their universe?

A: No.  Stardock wants them to create new games in the universe they created.  However, this needs to be handled in such a way that there is no confusion as to the relationship between Star Control and the works they licensed for Star Control II.

Q: If Stardock wants a new game from Paul and Fred, why did the settlement offer that Paul and Fred publicly posted that they claim came from Stardock demand that they "surrender" their IP?

A: It is regrettable that Paul and Fred chose to violate confidentiality and post, without context, a settlement offer.  Paul and Fred have been offered many settlement proposals with many different terms and are intended for negotiation by both parties to try to reach an amicable settlement.

Stardock paid over $300,000 for the Star acontrol IP which included the trademark and copyright to Star a Control 3. The Star Control brand is, in our view, far more valuable than any copyrighted material within a 25 year old DOS game. Source code and alien art. Nothing else, as far as we can discern, falls under copyright protection. You can’t copyright “lore” or timelines, or alien names, or game designs or UI.  

Thus, all we would gain would be the ability to have Ur-Quan that look just like the old Ur-Quan and space ships that look like the classic space ships. The greater value would be to make sure this kind of dispute didn’t happen again. But that value would still not overcome the damage they’ve caused in the market place due to the confusion on who owns Star Control and the ill will due to their PR company issuing false and misleading press releases and publicizing the dispute in a way to maximize ill will. Not to mention the considerable and rising legal costs.

None of this would prevent Paul and Fred from making a new game if that really is their desire. Stardock, in turn, would have been happy to license, free of charge, any IP they needed to make their new game.

Our respect for the work Paul and Fred did 25 years ago remains undiminished.  However, that respect does not give them the right to disrupt our product development at the 11th hour or misrepresent their new endeavors as the "true" sequel to our products.

Our dedication to bringing you a new Star Control game remains unchanged.  BETA 2 of Star Control: Origins is due in a few weeks.

For those interested in reading the details, our complete initial filing available online:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385277-Stardock-Legal-Complaint-2635-000-P-2017-12-08-1.html

Stardock 25th anniversary post documenting the creation of Star Control:

https://www.stardock.com/games/article/485810/star-control-ii-25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants  

 


Thank you for being fans of Star Control, and supporting our effort to make a great new game in the Star Control franchise.

And if you have questions that you’d like to see added to this post, feel free to reach out to me directly via Twitter at @kevinunangst

Kevin Unangst

Vice President, Marketing and Strategic Partnerships

Stardock Entertainment

1,790,169 views 728 replies
Reply #476 Top

I don't have much to add, but I wanted to thank you for the detailed explanation and lengthy discussion on the Star Control IP dispute.  I had been following Reiche and Ford's posts occasionally, having been a huge fan of Star Control II when it was first released, but I wasn't aware the the other side of the story had been published in such detail until I asked about it on this forum and was directed to this thread.  It's dismaying to see how much trouble has been caused over this when it could've been so easily avoided (e.g. look at Interplay's old game, Fallout, which was created as a new game because they didn't have the IP rights to create a sequel to Wasteland.  Making a "spiritual sequel" instead of a "real sequel" didn't hurt the Fallout series one bit!).

 

To those who have said that the narrative is out there, and Stardock will forever be seen by SC2 fans as the bad guy... Don't be so sure.  I thought Reiche and Ford made a really compelling case, but once I saw a synopsis of the opposite perspective, I changed my mind.  I hope both games come out and do really well, and that at some point, everyone can put this dispute behind them!

Reply #477 Top

A "spiritual sequel" is exactly what Stardock is going to release very soon. It's called Star Control: Origins. And yes, I am going to play it. However, I want to see a sequel to SC2 made too, so that I would finally see the old story continue as envisioned by its original creators. So I hope that Fred and Paul make the right decisions so that the sequel does get made.

Reply #478 Top

Quoting kungfujoe, reply 476

I don't have much to add, but I wanted to thank you for the detailed explanation and lengthy discussion on the Star Control IP dispute.  I had been following Reiche and Ford's posts occasionally, having been a huge fan of Star Control II when it was first released, but I wasn't aware the the other side of the story had been published in such detail until I asked about it on this forum and was directed to this thread.  It's dismaying to see how much trouble has been caused over this when it could've been so easily avoided (e.g. look at Interplay's old game, Fallout, which was created as a new game because they didn't have the IP rights to create a sequel to Wasteland.  Making a "spiritual sequel" instead of a "real sequel" didn't hurt the Fallout series one bit!).

 

To those who have said that the narrative is out there, and Stardock will forever be seen by SC2 fans as the bad guy... Don't be so sure.  I thought Reiche and Ford made a really compelling case, but once I saw a synopsis of the opposite perspective, I changed my mind.  I hope both games come out and do really well, and that at some point, everyone can put this dispute behind them!

Thanks!

We very much do want to see the story from SC2 continued.  We just need Paul and Fred to either:

1. License the Star Control IP so that their game continues within the Star Control framework.

2. Go off on their own and create a "spiritual successor" to SC2 (use different aliens, don't promote it as being a sequel to Star Control).

There are a lot of misconceptions over who "owns" what. 

Our evaluation of the facts as of December 1, 2017 (i.e. facts, not "I read on an Internet forum and I'm just assuming it's true"):

  1. The Star Control 1/2 music is owned by others (people like Riku who is working on SCO)
  2. The Star Control 1/2 alien artwork is owned by others (Erol Otus and the others).
  3. The Star Control 2 source code appears to have been lost in a HD crash many years ago but in any event, obviously, DOS source code isn't particularly relevant today. 
  4. The Star Control 1/2 lore seems to have been created by a team led by Paul Reiche.

We realize that many SC fans believed that Paul and Fred "owned the copyright" to SC 1/2.  Because "they said so". Regardless of who did what, Stardock hasn't made any claims on copyrights in Star Control 1/2.  We aren't using any copyrighted material from Star Control 1 or 2 so it should be a non-issue.   

What Stardock wants is that IF Paul and Fred want to go make a game, that's fine.  But if they want to do it without our involvement, then they can't exploit the work we've done and the value we've created in bringing Star Control back over the past 4 years.  I think most fans who choose to look at the facts with any objectivity will conclude that Paul and Fred announcing their "true sequel" less than a week before our big announcement that we had been planning, which they knew about, years in advance was not ideal.  Doubly so if the only artwork used to announce it was our box.

Legally, Paul and Fred have no more legal standing to Star Control than any other contractor who worked on it for Accolade.  Not to make too fine a point but Riku, for instance, has more copyrighted material in Star Control 2 that is relevant today than Paul or Fred. 

Let's face it, we game designers don't tend to end up with a lot of copyrights.  My friend, Soren Johnson, designed Civilization IV and more recently Offworld Trading Company.  But I don't think he actually created any assets that we could protect under copyright (or Firaxis in the case of Civ IV).  Which doesn't matter until you start suing people for copyright infringement.   

Not having copyrights does not diminish the importance of a person.  People get hung up on the lawyers nitpicking what it means to be a "creator".  If you don't own the trademark and you have few if any actual copyrights (common law or otherwise) the lawyers are going to nitpick if you're going to start suing people for copyright infringement because legally, "creator" implies authorship/copyright production. We lay people can call them God Emperor if we want.  But lawyers try to write with strict legal precision -- which is why it's crummy that lay people are applying conversational terminology to legal documents.  

In consumer software development, trademarks are what matter. I'm not sure we've ever bothered to file a copyright on any of our products. Why would we?  The trademark protects us from unfair competition.  

That's why trademarks are so valuable. I've seen people mistakenly think that all a trademark is is "the name". There is such a thing as a "tradename" but a trademark is about associating goods and services into a word or symbol.  The word or symbol is (to use a programming analogy) the pointer. The goods and services are the things it points at. 

In the case of Star Control, the trademark covers everything a consumer believes is associated uniquely with Star Control. No more. No less.   

That doesn't mean your trademark gives you the right to use someone else's copyright (for instance, the Ur-Quan art is pretty strongly associated with Star Control but having a trademark doesn't let you use the Ur-Quan art because that art is owned by someone else).  But it does give the trademark holder a say in how that copyright is used in commerce.

I also hope that most fans understand that someone's "offer" that we, in essence, share the trademark, don't associate with classic Star Control (despite having acquired the classic Star Control IP) and perpetually allow a third party to inspect what we do to certify it as acceptable to that third party is a non-starter.  We'd be crazy to accept that. Why would we? We already own Star Control. We don't have to share it and we're not using anyone's copyrighted material.

In the end, hopefully the parties will come together and resolve their differences.   If Paul and Fred truly want to continue their story as a "passion project" we're not stopping them.  We would go to great lengths to support that.  But any resolution cannot allow a third-party to meddle with our work or for a third-party to sew confusion in the player base over the future of Star Control. 

I will repeat this again: 

We are doing nothing, whatsoever, to prevent Paul and Fred from making a new game. 

They just have to choose to either license our IP (which we would do for free), the IP we offered to them in 2013 that we paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for and now have invested $10 million into to create a new Star Control OR they have to create a game that is not going to be associated with Star Control.  What they cannot do is profit from our Star Control revival efforts, associate their new game with Star Control without our permission and meddle in the development of new Star Control games and argue that "well, technically, as long as we don't actually call it 'Star Control' we are a-OK. We'll just use all the Star Control aliens and let everyone else call it the 'true Star Control'".   

Edit: I realize most people reading this are going to say "Of course! You must be misrepresenting the other side's position because how can you disagree with that last paragraph?"  But I can assure you, there's a small but very vocal group of people who absolutely believe that Paul and Fred own everything in Star Control other than the actual words "Star" and "Control" put together.

They think game designs, concepts, ideas,  user interface, unique words, etc. are part of a copyright (or believe that there's some mystical umbrella copyright concept) and do not realize that the vast vast majority of what people think of as unique to Star Control 2 has been owned by other people all these years.  Which is precisely why we didn't want new Star Control games to take place in the Ur-Quan universe because it is very very messy.  

   

 

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Reply #479 Top

Quoting PRHMro, reply 477

A "spiritual sequel" is exactly what Stardock is going to release very soon. It's called Star Control: Origins. And yes, I am going to play it. However, I want to see a sequel to SC2 made too, so that I would finally see the old story continue as envisioned by its original creators. So I hope that Fred and Paul make the right decisions so that the sequel does get made.

I don't know if "spiritual successor" applies here.  Some of the Discord folks have used the analogy of Battlestar Galactic V2 and Battlestar Galactic '78 as an analogy. 

But I am totally with you.  If you look at how much grief we took for 4 years by not using the Star Control aliens people know in the new one, that should tell you just how much we wanted to keep the door open for Paul and Fred to return to the Star Control universe someday.

And they still can either via a royalty free, no charge license if they to develop it independently from us.  Or they can do it with us using the Star Control: Origins engine.

They could create a new studio.  Call it Frungy Games or something.  In 2013, we created helped launch a series of studios around well respected designers in our industry through our investment fund.

 

Reply #480 Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 110

There is really nothing about Star Control that is not just an arcade version of the fully linked SFU.

I'm reading this thread from scratch--I got here late--and I have to say...it sounds to me, Kavik, that any spaceship game can be square-peg-in-round-holed to become an unquestionable rip-off of your precious Star Fleet Battles.

 

But, I gotta say, it just ain't so.

The galactic/strategic map is Federation & Empire, combat zooms down into SFB.

So, basically, what you're saying, is that any space combat game that involves a fleet, and which scales down the action from a galactic map to something more practical for ship-to-ship combat is a ripoff.

...cuz, you know, the relative sizes of stars, planets, and spaceships is something exclusively owned by SFB, apparently.

This is all contained within an RPG/adventure game... Prime Directive.

Okay, first of all, don't even get me started on how watered-down the term 'RPG' has gotten over the last few years. Just...don't.

Second...you seem to be saying, now, that a space game which has RPG elements to it is also a ripoff.

 

Tell me, is a game where characters climb and jump a ripoff of Donkey Kong?

 The Pkunk was a Last Starfighter reference, "Death Blossom", within their Star Fleet Battles as an arcade game "Super-Melee".

And this is why I had to respond. As a lifelong fan of "The Last Starfighter"--with the tattoo to prove it!--I absolutely must object!

Death Blossom is a weapon of last resort, and it isn't merely firing forward and to each side as the Pkunk ship does. Plenty of ships have had lateral guns over the years; are they all rip-offs of the Star League's Gunstar? I don't think so...especially since none of them, I'm sure, looked like a space butterfly.

As is always the case, the game is ours and only the story and characters are theirs.  Fwiffo, the Spathi species, the look of the ship is theirs... the game design is all us.

By that rationale, every FPS game is all Wolfenstein 3D. 

By that rationale, every RTS game is just chess.

By that rationale, every pizza is just toast.


At some point it has to be acknowledged that there are some stories, concepts, or ideas that cannot be done without some overlap with something which had come previously...but that doesn't make it a rip-off.

Reply #481 Top

I have a question that's not related to anything on the past like 11 pages:

Has anything of note happened between April and today? (besides PAGES AND PAGES OF INTERNET LAWYER TALK?)

Reply #482 Top

Quoting BionicDance, reply 480

By that rationale, every FPS game is all Wolfenstein 3D. 

By that rationale, every RTS game is just chess.

By that rationale, every pizza is just toast.

"A truer word..."...;)

However, BionicDance, your having come late to the discussion you may have missed the 'bit' where Kavik Kang was IMPLORED [warned] to cease the monologue/fixation with comparisons/accusations regarding 'SFB' under the argument of 'relevance'.

That side-track from this discussion has been permanently derailed....;)

Reply #483 Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 482

However, BionicDance, your having come late to the discussion you may have missed the 'bit' where Kavik Kang was IMPLORED [warned] to cease the monologue/fixation with comparisons/accusations regarding 'SFB' under the argument of 'relevance'.

That side-track from this discussion has been permanently derailed....;)

 

Yeah, I think I just got there. Heh.

I wasn't gonna say anything at all...but then I saw a part of my childhood--The Last Starfighter--being maligned, and I just had to...well...

I wasn't kidding about the tattoo, either.

I adore that movie. :)

I mean, c'mon...kid beats a video game and is invited by aliens to go do it for real? How could you not love a movie like that? 

Reply #484 Top

Okay, *whew*, that was one heckuva read; 20 pages of what I can't quite call a flamewar, but still kind of needed a cease-fire.

 

I still have a few questions, because there seemed to be a lot of confusion, contradictions, and ways concepts were expressed that could be interpreted multiple ways. I'm hoping someone will be able to bullet-point this for me, cuz reading it as paragraphs is...counter-productive.

First, let me say that, when I first heard this game was coming out, I was hoping for a sequel to SC2: same aliens, same lore, etc, and was disappointed when it turned out to be something else. What I've seen so far has grown on me, but that doesn't completely change my disappointment. So, my questions:

  • Regardless of the copyright/trademark squabbles, who has the actual legal ability to make a game using the original lore?
  • Is it true that Stardock (or possibly P&F; I honestly don't know which) can make a game using the alien names, but not their visual design or their backgrounds/lore? And which side has that right?
  • Stardock has said--or looked as though they've said--that the SC2 aliens will or might make appearances in this game or a future game (or possibly a mod to SCO?)...what actual form will that take? Actual characters or just offhand references? Will they be the in-name-only versions or actual SC2 versions?
  • If Stardock does put SC2 content in, is that purely for the fans, or is it also a wee bit of counting coup on P&F for being wank-stains about this whole thing?
  • And, you know...stuff.

If someone could possibly lay out the current map of what's possible, what's not, and what's being implemented in the game, I'm very curious. And, like, in bullet-point format rather than paragraphs, so it's easy to interpret.

I realize that may be asking a lot, but...twenty pages. All at once. My head's spinning.

Please?

Reply #485 Top

Disclaimer: I'm not an official Stardock representative. I'm sure someone will chime in if I get anything wrong :)

Quoting BionicDance, reply 490

    • Regardless of the copyright/trademark squabbles, who has the actual legal ability to make a game using the original lore?

I believe both sides are currently claiming the right to do this, so "answer unclear, consult the courts"?

    • Is it true that Stardock (or possibly P&F; I honestly don't know which) can make a game using the alien names, but not their visual design or their backgrounds/lore? And which side has that right?

Stardock claims that they can use the names, but concedes that their visual design is copyrighted. P&F are contesting that Stardock cannot even use the names, and that P&F own all rights related to the races. So, again, depends on how the lawsuits resolve.

    • Stardock has said--or looked as though they've said--that the SC2 aliens will or might make appearances in this game or a future game (or possibly a mod to SCO?)...what actual form will that take? Actual characters or just offhand references? Will they be the in-name-only versions or actual SC2 versions?

At this time, it looks like Stardock would be limited to "in-name-only", although many of the races are sufficiently generic (spider, plant, wears masks) that it's pretty easy to convey the same concept with different art. My understanding is that the plot is being rewritten to include the SC2 races as actual characters, now that things have soured between Stardock and P&F (originally Stardock said they would not use the races at all, out of respect for P&F)

    • If Stardock does put SC2 content in, is that purely for the fans, or is it also a wee bit of counting coup on P&F for being wank-stains about this whole thing?

I'd argue a bit of both - Stardock publicly said they wouldn't use the SC1+2 races, and is now going back on that, so it's pretty clearly sending the message "we no longer respect P&F". That said, I think the fans will be quite happy to see the races, and I'm sure they would have been included even if it weren't for the side perk of counting coup :)


If someone could possibly lay out the current map of what's possible, what's not, and what's being implemented in the game, I'm very curious. And, like, in bullet-point format rather than paragraphs, so it's easy to interpret.

* If Stardock wins the court case, they have a standing offer to license the races to P&F, so both games could potentially include the SC1+2 races

* If P&F win the court case, they have made it adamantly clear that the SC1+2 races will only show up in GOTP

* At this time, only P&F plan to continue the original plotline. 

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Reply #486 Top

Sweet tattoo, by the way. I'm a Last Starfighter fan too.

[Edited by Admin Jafo]

Reply #487 Top

Quoting GMOrz, reply 492


      • Regardless of the copyright/trademark squabbles, who has the actual legal ability to make a game using the original lore?

I believe both sides are currently claiming the right to do this, so "answer unclear, consult the courts"?

Lore belongs to Paul and Fred, that's copyrightable. But you can't copyright names and you can't copyright "Aliens that look like spiders".

On the flipside, although Paul and Fred can use the Lore, they can't call it Star Control without permission, because that's the trademark, which Stardock owns.

Quoting GMOrz, reply 492
Stardock claims that they can use the names, but concedes that their visual design is copyrighted. P&F are contesting that Stardock cannot even use the names, and that P&F own all rights related to the races. So, again, depends on how the lawsuits resolve.


See previous answer

Quoting GMOrz, reply 492
      • If Stardock does put SC2 content in, is that purely for the fans, or is it also a wee bit of counting coup on P&F for being wank-stains about this whole thing?
I'd argue a bit of both - Stardock publicly said they wouldn't use the SC1+2 races, and is now going back on that, so it's pretty clearly sending the message "we no longer respect P&F". That said, I think the fans will be quite happy to see the races, and I'm sure they would have been included even if it weren't for the side perk of counting coup :)


It's neither. Stardock have to use some of those elements now, in order to strengthen their trademarks. If you don't use a trademark (or don't defend it) you can lose it. Paul and Fred have literally forced Stardock to use them.
Reply #488 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 478


Legally, Paul and Fred have no more legal standing to Star Control than any other contractor who worked on it for Accolade.  Not to make too fine a point but Riku, for instance, has more copyrighted material in Star Control 2 that is relevant today than Paul or Fred. 

Let's face it, we game designers don't tend to end up with a lot of copyrights.
 

7.1 Termination Upon Bankruptcy of Publisher.

If Publisher shall become bankrupt and/or if the business of Publisher shall be replaced in the hands of a receiver, assignee or trustee in bankruptcy, whether by voluntary act of Publisher or otherwise, then unless such bankruptcy shall be terminated within ninety (90) days, all rights to all Work or Derivative Work shall revert to Developer.

7.2 Termination After Completion. 

In the event of the termination of this Agreement after the completion of the Work [...] All licenses and sublicenses granted hereunder shall automatically be deemed assigned to Developer concurrently with the termination of this Agreement, and shall otherwise remain in full force and effect.


https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385486-2635-000-P-2018-02-22-17-Counterclaim.html
Page 40, Exhibit 1, the 1998 License Agreement

This would seem to give Paul rather decisive legal standing to Star Control's copyrighted material.

8. Ownership of Proprietary Information. 

Publisher acknowledges that, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in Section 11.4 ("Ownership") of the Agreement, but without limiting any rights Publisher obtained under the Agreement or otherwise in such copyrights and other proprietary rights, Developer is the sole and exclusive owner of all copyrights and other proprietary rights in the 3DO Version.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385486-2635-000-P-2018-02-22-17-Counterclaim.html
Page 53, Exhibit 2, addendum for the 3DO version of Star Control

This would again seem to establish that Paul owns any and all copyrights applicable to the 3DO version.

2. License Grant. 

Reiche hereby grants Publisher the sole and exclusive license in the Territory to use, modify, duplicate, produce, package, promote, market, display, distribute in any manner, including electronic distribution, license, and sublicense all characters, names, likenesses, characteristics, and other intellectual property rights pertaining to Star Control I and Star Control II in which Reiche has an ownership interest.



https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385486-2635-000-P-2018-02-22-17-Counterclaim.html
Page 56, Exhibit 3, addendum for Star Control 3

While it may not be legally binding, it seems pretty clear that the agreement between Paul and Atari required a license to use the names.

1.5 "Reiche Intellectual Property" means the copyright and other intellectual property rights (excluding trademarks) owned by Reiche, as set forth in the Agreement and Addenda Nos. 1 and 2 to the Agreement, in and to Star Control I for PC, Auriga and Sega, Star Control for PC and 3DO, any accompanying documentation, and the Star Control II cluebook. The Reiche Intellectual Property shall include proprietary rights in and to any source code, names (of starships and alien races), characters, plot lines, setting, terminology unique to the Star Control products, and music in and to - above.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385486-2635-000-P-2018-02-22-17-Counterclaim.html
Page 62, Exhibit 4, addendum for Star Control 4 (which was never published)

Again reinforcing that the names, characters, plot, and setting were to be considered the property of Paul. 

 
Reply #489 Top

Quoting GMOrz, reply 492

- https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385486-2635-000-P-2018-02-22-17-Counterclaim.html
Page 62, Exhibit 4, addendum for Star Control 4 (which was never published)

Again reinforcing that the names, characters, plot, and setting were to be considered the property of Paul. 

 

Star Control 4 was a rudimentary Flash game that was hosted on Atari's page for a short while but was enough to enable Atari to keep the Trademark alive which then got sold to Stardock alongside other intellectual property and items related to Star Control... how much we have no clue as that's part of the court discovery period and all parties involved in the case have been put under a gag order to not discus ongoing proceedings.

Until the smoke settles basically any accusations are just that, any armchair lawyer work is just poisoning the well of good faith in the products and those who are making them, and many people have basically just started calling Fred/Paul/Brad some very bad things in some very wordy posts.

Reply #490 Top

Quoting GMOrz, reply 485

Disclaimer: I'm not an official Stardock representative. I'm sure someone will chime in if I get anything wrong :)

Either way, thank you. :)

Reply #491 Top

It should again be noted that the copyright is not sufficient for P&F to use the names, since those names are associated with the Star Control trademark, nor does copyright preclude the ability of other people in using those same names. Copyright protects the EXACT representation of an existing work, so you can't rip the dialogue from the original games and put it into a new one. It does not prevent the reuse of the SAME names in a new game. That's what trademark is for, and Stardock owns the trademark, not P&F, so P&F's copyright is worthless as far as preventing Stardock from reusing the names. P&F's copyright also does NOT give them the right to reuse the names in a new product, since the copyright only covers the original expression, not a new expression which is what usage in a new work would represent. If someone wants to make a new game with the aliens and characters from the original Star Control games, they need the permission of the Star Control trademark owner, which in this case is Stardock. P&F's permission is a non-issue.

Reply #492 Top

Quoting zwabbit, reply 491

That's what trademark is for, and Stardock owns the trademark, not P&F, so P&F's copyright is worthless as far as preventing Stardock from reusing the names. 

I'm not speaking to the legal status, but the original intent of the contract. In plain language, it pretty clearly gives the "intellectual property rights" to the names to Paul, and licenses them back at significant expense multiple times.

The UQM Project also uses the alien race names, despite avoiding the "Star Control" trademark, and it has always been that community's understanding that they had no right to use the trademark (and thus didn't).

It's very clear that Atari/Accolade's interpretation of trademark law differs from Stardock, and regardless of whether Stardock is legally correct, it still feels morally questionable that they're re-interpreting the contract 25 years later, in a way that neither of the original parties seems to have supported.

Reply #493 Top

The original contracts explicitly excluded trademarks from the IP rights that were granted to P&F. By excluding it, P&F's ability to ever reuse the names and etc that were in the Star Control games was taken out of their hands. The trademark is the only thing that ever would have given that reuse right, and P&F never had it.

The UQM project is not engaged in commerce, therefore the issue of trademark does not apply to it. If it were engaged in commerce, its avoidance of the specific term of Star Control would not be sufficient protection since it would be using names and terms associated with Star Control and would therefore constitute infringement of the trademark.

There is no distinction between Atari/Accolade's definition of trademark with Stardock's. Atari/Accolade did not ever intend to allow P&F to reuse their material in new games without Atari/Accolade's permission either. If they had wanted to, they wouldn't have withheld control of the trademark. When Atari/Accolade withheld rights to the trademark, it was a very explicit decision on their part to prevent P&F from making new games based on materials inside of the original SC games, and that is part of the original contract terms.

Reply #494 Top

I find the UQM community arguments amusing because the parallel argument would be that anyone can 100% copy every element that is associated with a trademarked good and it is perfectly acceptable as long as you don't label the good with the mark.

What value would trademarks have if this was accurate? I'm 100% certain if the UQM community were instead an entity selling that game, they would have received a C&D within days from Atari/Accolate followed immediately by an infringement lawsuit. 

 

Reply #495 Top

Quoting eride, reply 494

I find the UQM community arguments amusing because the parallel argument would be that anyone can 100% copy every element that is associated with a trademarked good and it is perfectly acceptable as long as you don't label the good with the mark.

How I see it is as follows...

Star control is Trademarked and at the time was owned by Atari which is why when the project was released into the wild it was named "The Ur-Quan Masters" instead of Star Control II, now the super tricky part is who owns what when it comes to copyrights "Yes they are separate things" and what in the game is worthy of being copyrighted outside of the music and some of the artwork.

 

This is why there is now a court case going on between Paul Reiche III and Stardock to find out just what is copyrighted and didn't land in Stardock's hands when they bought the Trademark and other IP during the Atari Auction.  There are other things involved but if I re-post anything it'll just add to the heap of 10,000 times it's been posted.

Reply #496 Top

I think the issue you are having is that you don't actually understand the concept of a trademark.

Reply #497 Top

Quoting eride, reply 496

I think the issue you are having is that you don't actually understand the concept of a trademark.

I don’t think Pyro was referring to the trademark.  Now, on copyright, as far as I’m aware, no copyrights from SC 1/2 came to Stardock. Those belong to whoever owns those various copyrights such as the artists, musicians, programmers, or anyone else who authored something that can be protected by copyright.

To avoid any potential legal entanglements, Star Control:Origins doesn’t use any copyrighted material from SC 1/2 except for the music in which we explicitly acquired or licensed it from the copyright holders who are also working on Star Control:Origins.

Reply #498 Top

I was gonna ask about the music, since it was obviously from SC2...and yet, amid this copyright flap, it seemed odd that it was in SCO.

 

Believe me when I say, NOT complaining.

 

So, you know...thanks for clearing that one up. :)

Reply #499 Top

Quoting eride, reply 494
I find the UQM community arguments amusing because the parallel argument would be that anyone can 100% copy every element that is associated with a trademarked good and it is perfectly acceptable as long as you don't label the good with the mark.

What value would trademarks have if this was accurate?

The value of a trademark is that it protects elements associated with the source of the good, not with the good itself.  If you want to protect the good itself, you use patents or copyrights.  Hence my earlier example of generic medication, which (once the patent has expired) can precisely copy a brand-name medication, as long as it doesn't copy the logo on the pill.

In this case, the argument is that Accolade never established a brand around any of the alien names; there were no "Slylandro"-branded pillows, "Shofixti"-branded firecrackers, or "Syreen"-branded...well, you get the idea.  Even the Ur-Quan were only mentioned in small print on the box.  Without any of those efforts, even though those names were part of the game, they never became part of its brand identity, and consequently are not protected by its trademark.

At least that is the argument.  I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not going to assert that I can predict what a court will say, let alone a jury.  But this seems to best fit what I've been able to read about how trademarks work.

Reply #500 Top

Quoting eride, reply 496

I think the issue you are having is that you don't actually understand the concept of a trademark.

Frogboy beat me to the reply since you replied at about 2am my time :)

 

Yes I was talking both about the Trademark aka the Star Control brand AND separately copyrighted materials such as Riku's music from within game.  -- Yes collaborative projects like making a video game can get insanely messy when it comes to Trademarks, Copyrights, and other licensed materials... which is why it took so long for Final Fantasy VII to get on steam because they had to re-negotiate certain contracts to allow for digital distribution.

 

Since the UQM project is up still is because it doesn't violate the Star Control TM by changing it's name and other aspects, and individual copyright holders have not issued a DMCA takedown request to remove their copyrighted materials from the project, IE stuff like the music composed by various third parties.

Note:  This is why in the UQM project, even though it's built from the 3DO code it's missing the Crystal Dynamics splash screen, as well as a few other things.

All of which brings us back to what I posted a few posts ago, let the courts do their duty and solve it in a legal fashion as people trying to sway the court of opinion does just one thing... poison the well.