AngelaMarie88 AngelaMarie88

Are Public Schools best for Kids?

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Are Public Schools best for Kids?

from JoeUser Forums
Another school year is upon us. Many have already started, but my 4-year-old's Pre-K is scheduled to start next week...or the week after, I can't remember.

I have so many questions.

1. I've heard it said that for children, Play is Work. That's fine. It makes sense enough. They learn science by playing with sand and water. They learn roles in society by observing life and then dressing up and acting like doctors, veteranarians, pilots. They play house. They play in their pretend kitchens. Fine.

2. I've also heard that for children, Work can be Play. I read in a Montessori book of one scene in which 3 & 4-year-olds were lined up along a kitchen counter, assembly line style, one washing dishes by hand, one drying, one putting them away. The writer said that children this age can be taught such types of work because they enjoy the repetition, structure, teamwork, and sense of accomplishment.

I guess it doesn't have to be one or the other. Kids can play. And kids can be taught to work without thinking it a drudgery.

But my quandry as I'm about to enter my firstborn child into the public school system (which I have a whole lot of qualms with) is...well, I have a lot of issues with public schools.

We visited the school at an open house yesterday. We chose this school which is farther away than the one he should be going to because the facilities and materials are so much nicer than the other. The open house was pretty casual. We pretty much showed ourselves around the school and there were two or three staffmembers in the entrance area ready to answer anyone's questions . We just headed straight for the Pre-K. My son wanted to play with blocks. So I sat down with him and we played. Then we played with the toy barn & animals. We could have played forever, but of course I knew that we were just there to "look around" and probably shouldn't have been messing with anything. But all the materials were gorgeous, brand-new, tailored to teach every fundamental subject such as music, art, construction, reading, listening, geography...

My son will probably be eager to play with everything when school starts, but I know better that in structured settings, all those toys just might be more of a tease than anything else. More time will probably be spent taking roll, getting the kids to sit down and be quiet, standing in straight lines, etc.

Call me a bohemian, but it's all that structure that bugs me.

I think every child deserves individualized attention from someone who knows and loves them. To be treated like a person rather than a number. In an individualized setting, there would be nothing like, "Sorry, it's not your turn to talk right now." Or, "Sit down!" Or, "I'm sorry you didn't get enough sleep last night, but school starts at 8am sharp. Suck it up."

I would love to home school. But for a bizillion reasons I've come to the conclusion that I'm just not cut out for it. It hurts me to have to admit that they'd be better off being treated as numbers in the Public School system than they would be at home with Mom who means well, but occasionally loses her patience, is hopelessly scatter-brained, and is scared of going out in public.

I can't help wondering if the public school system inhibits children's vast learning potentials in so many ways. I wonder if more time is spent getting the kids organized and keeping peace than is actually spent educating them?

But then of course it teaches children that there are many people in the world and they need to learn patience, standing in lines, sharing, cooperating. That's part of life.

I know a six-year old girl whose mom homeschools her, along with her 4-year-old brother, and then there's a new baby in the family too. The girl is learning a couple foreign languages with Rosetta Stone (a fantastic but expensive program that her parents purchased before it became free online through the library system!). She's up on history, religion, arithmetic. literature, music... And as far as socialization... I dunno, but her family is very involved in the community and church so I don't think the girl is isolated as much as opponents of homeschooling might imagine.

I dunno. If I could change the world, well first I'd be capable of homeschooling, but in a perfect world homeschooling wouldn't be necessary because we'd be more community-oriented, people would work together. We wouldn't need to dump our kids into public schools either to save our own sanity, with hopes to promote theirs.
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Reply #76 from JoeUser Forums Top
and teachers who constantly assume that we are willing to do their jobs for them. Every night our kids returned home with 3 - 4 hours of homework. If they have to send that much home every night, what are they learning in school.


Oh my God. Someone who gets it. I suffer, well my son does, the same here 4 hours of homework including reading a book every day. I don't have that many books in my house. I'm forced to get multiple books from the library just to keep up.
Reply #77 from JoeUser Forums Top
Charles, no offense, but on another thread you listed a loooong list of electronics you own.

Perhaps video game money needs to be funneled more toward building up a decent home library. You don't even have to buy new books. Libraries usually have annual sales where all sorts of books are sold very cheaply. You can also try garage sales. Amazon often has used books for under a dollar (sometimes 1 cent) and all you have to do is pay shipping.

Your children really need a literacy rich environment in their home.
Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #78 from JoeUser Forums Top
Local libraries are great resources, both for borrowing and buying books. I know we got a ton of cheap movies, even, from a library sale. We didn't buy books because we don't have any shelf space for them anymore.

Ah, the ol' video game collection. I have tons of video games, but I haven't bought a new one in quite some time now. Not that I have time to play them with 2 kids that need my attention. Yes, my video game collection is not going to increase very much for the next couple years, at least.

My son has so many books we filled up a bookshelf, put 3 shelves on the wall, and filled them too... So I guess you could say my home has a literacy rich environment. Though Goodnight Moon has a couple inconsistencies I'm worried about, (like they never SAID there were clocks, or socks in the great green room, but then he said goodnight to them anyway? What's up with that?) but at least we're reading.
Reply #79 from JoeUser Forums Top
But -- and here's the point where I commend her -- she did it after carefully weighing the options. Too many parents just choose one option or the other, without really thinking it through.
I believe that parents need to prayerfully consider how to raise their kids, and ultimately, decide what is best. Which is what I see Angela doing in the article.


And just to reemphasize the email I sent her...I think she is a good mother precisely because she is concerned about how to raise her children. I think she is a great mom.

You raise several good points in your post, but it almost feels like building up public schooling by bashing homeschooling

I suppose I have seen too many cases of poor homeschooling and only one "outstanding" home schooled child. I disagree with people who refuse to allow a child to attend public school on a principle and then do them a disservice by warping them. I have seen children and adults who were home schooled and it is very noticeable which ones were well taught and which ones were given opportunities to learn socialization skills. Too often children are home schooled and then not taught that education is important...the "classes" are squeezed around the mother's schedule and the result is a little hellion or an introverted freak with little or no ability to regulate themselves as functioning adults in society.

I will amend this to say I do know of one girl who is well adjusted and educationally challenged and being home schooled in an absolutely amazing manner....but that's only one.


Reply #80 from JoeUser Forums Top
But -- and here's the point where I commend her -- she did it after carefully weighing the options. Too many parents just choose one option or the other, without really thinking it through.
I believe that parents need to prayerfully consider how to raise their kids, and ultimately, decide what is best. Which is what I see Angela doing in the article.


And just to reemphasize the email I sent her...I think she is a good mother precisely because she is concerned about how to raise her children. I think she is a great mom. I wanted to be the devils advocate and really emphasise this portion of my opinion.

You raise several good points in your post, but it almost feels like building up public schooling by bashing homeschooling

I suppose I have seen too many cases of poor homeschooling and only one "outstanding" home schooled child. I disagree with people who refuse to allow a child to attend public school on a principle and then do them a disservice by warping them. I have seen children and adults who were home schooled and it is very noticeable which ones were well taught and which ones were given opportunities to learn socialization skills. Too often children are home schooled and then not taught that education is important...the "classes" are squeezed around the mother's schedule and the result is a little hellion or an introverted freak with little or no ability to regulate themselves as functioning adults in society.

I will amend this to say I do know of one girl who is well adjusted and educationally challenged and being home schooled in an absolutely amazing manner....but that's only one.


Reply #81 from JoeUser Forums Top

In my area, in the name of teaching 'safety', 4 and 5 year old student's innocence is robbed and their natural latency period violated through being classroom viewing of the video, Good Touch/Bad Touch. This is shown without express parental permission.

This is not done here at pre-k age.  But frankly I was teaching my kids about no one touching their private places at about 3.....when they were old enough to understand and might occasionally not be with one of us...with other family etc.

Maybe if the Catholic Church woulda been more pro-active about inappropriate touching, and started when the kids were young, all those sexual abuse cases may have been avoided.

Wanting to keep our kids sheltered from the world is understandable.  But once they start spending ANY time out of their parents care, they should be given basic information to keep them safe and the knowledge of how to tell.

My only real beef with the public school system is how far they take political correctness.  It drives me nuts.  But then my oldest is only in 6th grade..

Reply #82 from JoeUser Forums Top
double post
Reply #83 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm pretty sure inappropriate touching really can't be taught properly until they're out of diapers.

"Maybe if the Catholic Church woulda been more pro-active about inappropriate touching, and started when the kids were young, all those sexual abuse cases may have been avoided."

Private places? In Church? Gasp! Why would you even suggest such a thing. All you're allowed to say about sex in church is that you can't do it, not ever, unless you're married. And if you want to be a priest or a nun, the heroes of the religion, never ever!
Reply #84 from JoeUser Forums Top
Perhaps video game money needs to be funneled more toward building up a decent home library. You don't even have to buy new books. Libraries usually have annual sales where all sorts of books are sold very cheaply. You can also try garage sales. Amazon often has used books for under a dollar (sometimes 1 cent) and all you have to do is pay shipping.


None taken. I agree fully. Though not all those video game systems were bought by me. Some where either xmas gifts or I found, believe it or not.

I am working on getting more books. I had a nice conversation with a co-worker who told me about how she and her sisters and brothers had to read at least 1 hour everyday before going out to play. Now she does the same with her children. I am working in implementing this idea but need to focus on moving first and getting a book shelf for their books. I find tions of books in garage sales, the library and even in walmart. But i'll be honest when I say I just never had much of a care for reading before but now that is changing.

Thanks for pointing it out though. It shows people care and wanna make a difference.

Reply #85 from JoeUser Forums Top
Choas Manager posts:
As for socialization, well... let's just say they get plenty. Between the frequent outings with local homeschool groups and the neighbourhood kids and church groups, they're constantly dealing with peers their age. Additionally, as has been noted, they're also learning to function in an adult world. And one of my kids, the autistic child, prefers that.


Exactly. As if 'socializaton' doesn't occur within homeschooling. It does and is another very positive reason for home schooling. Whereever people, including young people, congregate, there is going to be inter-action or socialization going on.

Let's take this type of socialization and compare that with how wonderful is the socialization in public schools. How often do we read about children being physically, verbally or sexually abused in school? C'mon, be honest---they don't have controlling "bullying" courses, police patrols, cameras everywhere and metal detectors in schools for nothing. For all these, it seems as though some public schools, not all, are dangerous places to be.

Does public school socialization involve peer pressure to smoke, use drugs and begin sexual activity? How easy is it for children to adopt the values of the peer group? To feel pressured to dress the same name-brand jeans, or wear the latest hair-style, make up or having a boy friend by 4th grade? You bet it does.
Reply #86 from JoeUser Forums Top
Crack don't smoke itself, people.


Best. Response. Line. EVER.
Reply #87 from JoeUser Forums Top
Good Touch/Bad Touch.


Yes, we'd prefer they get molested and not know how to react. That's genius, lula!


It seems SanChonino that you completely miss the point. The schools are teaching 5 and 6 year old children about sexual molestation WITHOUT parental permission is the point.

Tova7 posts:
But frankly I was teaching my kids about no one touching their private places at about 3.....when they were old enough to understand and might occasionally not be with one of us...with other family etc.


And you as parent are the very best one to deem the appropriate time and what exactly you want to teach your 3 year old in the matter of sexuality and whether or not you want a teacher or school nurse to do the same.

I was addressing the point concerning public schools. Would you like your 5 year old to be taught this personal information about his body by his teacher or stranger as a school nurse in a classroom of his peers without your knowledge or permission?


Aimed at teaching 5 year olds to protect themselves from sexual abusers, the controversial good touch/ bad touch programs and others like it, have been around at least since 2000. And finally, last year, the Catholic Medical Assoc. has released a 55 page study that condemns the programs as ineffective, out-of step with proper, normal child development and not appropriate sex education for children that age.

Good touch/Bad Touch and other such programs were critized for exposing children to sexual concepts inappropriate to their age and for burdening children with the responsibility of protecting themselves against sexual abuse.

The programs are aimed at the concept of "child empowerment" which the report says places undo emphasis and responsibility onto small children to protect themselves from sexual abuse. It's flawed and wrong because we should not first expose vile concepts to young children and expect them to become empowered to stop abuse or in any way shoulder the burden for their own protection.

The study is based on conclusions of research done at the Univ. of Calif. that indicated that young children do not hav ethe cognitive capacities for this kind of thinking skills and conceptualization that are necessary to determine how a person can do a bad thing. Children this age cannot be expected to grasp how an innocuous situation can change into a threatening situation.
Reply #88 from JoeUser Forums Top
LOL, big surprise that the Catholic Church doesn't support schools teaching children to recognize and report molestation.

Reply #89 from JoeUser Forums Top
Ha! Oh my gosh this has turned into talking about molestation. Not funny, but funny how threads take on lives of their own.

We had a conference with the Pre-K teacher today. I think we're really going to enjoy this place, er, that is, my son will enjoy the school They'll have plenty of time to play with the toys, the curriculum is good, everything looks great.

And as an extra wonderful surprise, they're forbidden to put on fashion shows! Woo-hoo! It's a uniform type of school. The casual kind, where they have a choice of three different color polo shirts, khaki shorts or pants. So the kids won't all look the same, but fashion worries won't distract from the learning environment. I love it! I think if my schooling days required casual uniforms I would have had a lot fewer knots in my stomach every morning, and there'd be a lot less class distinction at school, all sources of stress.
Reply #90 from JoeUser Forums Top
And finally, last year, the Catholic Medical Assoc. has released a 55 page study that condemns the programs as ineffective, out-of step with proper, normal child development and not appropriate sex education for children that age.


Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's trust a bunch of motherfucking child molesters to tell us about what we should and shouldn't teach our kids. They'd probably prefer that this program not exist - so their pedophile priests can continue to molest to their hearts' content.

There's a reason I'm an atheist, and the Catholic "Church" is it.
Reply #91 from JoeUser Forums Top
There's a reason I'm an atheist, and the Catholic "Church" is it.


Thank god! I thought there might be some intelligence in that response. So glad to see I was mistaken.
Reply #92 from JoeUser Forums Top
Oh my gosh this has turned into talking about molestation. Not funny, but funny how threads take on lives of their own.


For sure, there is nothing at all funny about molestation. It's good though to be aware that students everywhere are the victims of sexual misconduct.
Reply #93 from JoeUser Forums Top
And finally, last year, the Catholic Medical Assoc. has released a 55 page study that condemns the programs as ineffective, out-of step with proper, normal child development and not appropriate sex education for children that age.

Good touch/Bad Touch and other such programs were critized for exposing children to sexual concepts inappropriate to their age and for burdening children with the responsibility of protecting themselves against sexual abuse.


LOL, big surprise that the Catholic Church doesn't support schools teaching children to recognize and report molestation.


Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's trust a bunch of motherfucking child molesters to tell us about what we should and shouldn't teach our kids. They'd probably prefer that this program not exist - so their pedophile priests can continue to molest to their hearts' content.

There's a reason I'm an atheist, and the Catholic "Church" is it.


As a person who's been slammed several times by many people on this site for stereotype and generalizing, it's nice to see how so many people on this thread went out of their way to generalize the entire Catholic Church as nothing but a bunch of pedophile bastards who want nothing more than to have every child in the world be sexually molested at the youngest age possible by everyone, including their own Priest. Because we all know all Catholic Priest are pedophiles who have touched every boy and girl in their churches, right?

As of now I reserve the right to stereotype and generalize at my leisure and no one can say anything about it.
Reply #94 from JoeUser Forums Top
JoeKnowledge is just a semi-literate blogger who suckered you into joining his blog group. He's not a JU admin, just the administrator of his own site.


Wow, really? How on earth did he alter the way my personal article selection process begins? I'm serious, every time I click "New Article" I'm taken to an intermediate screen that asks me to choose Joe or JoeKnowledge. Grr. If it is indeed some half-literate person's doing and has nothing to do with Brad & the real powers that be, I want it taken away. It's annoying.
Reply #95 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's part of the whole blog group thing apparently. I have one too for a failed "diet club" that I started waaaaay back.

You apparently joined his blog group.

Reply #96 from JoeUser Forums Top
Then again, I just glanced around here and noticed that I'm in good company in this knowledgenet thingy. And I'm #7 in the top ten! I've never seen my name on any top ten list before, so maybe I like this place after all ::

I'm pretty sure inappropriate touching really can't be taught properly until they're out of diapers.


Oh dear do we ever have to get up-close-and-personal to clean off those little booties! In this PC world sometimes I'm embarrassed to clean my own kids that closely. There is no possible way to be "appropriate" when changing diapers ::
Reply #97 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's part of the whole blog group thing apparently. I have one too for a failed "diet club" that I started waaaaay back.


Interesting. So do you have to click a radio button to choose which blog group you want to post to every time you start an article too?

The study is based on conclusions of research done at the Univ. of Calif. that indicated that young children do not hav ethe cognitive capacities for this kind of thinking skills and conceptualization that are necessary to determine how a person can do a bad thing. Children this age cannot be expected to grasp how an innocuous situation can change into a threatening situation.


I think they're underestimating a child's "cognitive capacities". I have a vivid memory from when I was TWO years old...in short someone tried to molest me, the situation made me uneasy, and I left. That reaction was instinctive. I kid you not, it's a rare early memory I have of every detail leading up to the event, during, and after it.

It's healthy that institutions are concerned about sexual abuse awareness & prevention, and it's great for all humans to be aware that when something makes them feel uncomfortable they've got rights to control the situation. Some kids may get caught like a deer in headlights in molestation situations, so broadly educating them is fine I guess, if that's what it takes. It's a sad world, but kids seem to be getting smarter earlier these days and can probably handle the info. I'd hope the info is being presented with sensitivity and tact.
Reply #99 from JoeUser Forums Top
I was addressing the point concerning public schools. Would you like your 5 year old to be taught this personal information about his body by his teacher or stranger as a school nurse in a classroom of his peers without your knowledge or permission?


No Lula, I would not like it without my knowledge. But with two kids in public school this has NEVER happened. I am always given written notification when anything that even remotely involves the private parts is even discussed.

For instance, last night at my 6th graders open house, we were told sex ed comes at the end of the year. It is just the mechanics and involves a video, which the parents are free to come and watch the night before, or borrow it and watch at home. I have to sign a permission slip for that. I also have to sign one when they do any health or physiology class that involves the genitalia.

The study is interesting, but I disagree with it. Kids can be taught something as simple as..."Everything your bathing suit covers is private. No one is allowed to touch you there, or look there, unless mom and dad are with you."

My 3 year old grasped that just fine. Even told other kids not to slap his butt because it was his private part. Heh.

I don't have a problem with WHO teaches about inappropriate touching so long as I know what the curriculum involves.
Reply #100 from JoeUser Forums Top
"I want to learn"

Is this something instilled in the average child today? I see knowledge like it's magic. At 44, "I STILL want to learn." Because the more knowledge one has, the more magic they can perform. Bleah - didn't say that well - hopefully you get my drift.

Teaching does begin at home, but there are lots of opinions out there on how best to do that. I used socratic method with my kids. They'd ask a question, and I'd say "Well what do you think the answer might be?" Then they'd go figure it out and be so proud when they realized how empowered they were to learn when all they had to do was want to - a teacher wasn't even required. Just some resources and a desire to think. That's an oversimplification of what actually occurred, of course, and is for illustrative purposes only. They'd always come back and say "Well, I found this idea, and I think it, too." At which point I'd ask well "WHY do you think that?" and so on and so forth.

A process begun this way never ends. To this day I still ask myself "Hmm...so what IS the answer?" and then I think about it and research it and often wind up rethinking and re-researching several times.

I say if you can manage to instill in your little ones a sense that knowledge is magical, then they, too, will say "I want to learn." After that, no one, not a bad teacher alive, will stop them, and then this whole discussion becomes moot.