Parents ARE the child's first teacher, zydor! And they are ALWAYS teaching their children whether or not a school system is present. What I find patently absurd is that we live in a world where, as long as someone's willing to stick it out in college for four years, we deem them fit to teach. There are some truly excellent teachers out there, but not everyone with a teacher's certificate is fit to do the job.

OK hmm, Gid...I agree with what you said.

As a teacher, I too agree that a four year degree doesnt and shouldnt make someone a teacher. It gets them at least in the right direction by taking various classes related to pedagogy, literacy, math, sciences, methods of teaching...etc. But at the same time, a common phrase youll hear teachers say is "I learned more in the first 4 minutes than I did in the first 4 years of college" and that is always true. The best colleges try to prepare its teacher candidates by getting them out in the classroom as much as possible. My college first started off as a teachers college long ago. Now they even have a Pre K school on campus which many candidates use for additional research and study. I had a full semester in the classroom as a student teacher and my other observations were for a couple of weeks at a time. Now, they have teachers become highly qualified...which really doesnt make any sense to me. I think I got it in Vegas and I earned it out here in WY and all I needed to do was show my transcripts. I truly believe that a teacher should have a five year study. 4 years of regular study and classes and observation and a full entire year in the classroom before graduation.

You should be commended for evaluating what's best for your child. Many parents don't, and just assume the public schools to be best for their children without question. I've known many parents like you, parents who felt they couldn't homeschool, and who put their children in public school. What I encouraged them to do, and encourage you to do, is to make the home environment a rich learning environment. If you want your kids to have the best education, be active in it. Don't assume their learning ends when they leave the schoolhouse door, or leave for the summer. You can be a "homeschooler" even WITH your children in public schools...and in so doing, can offer them more than you ever dreamed possible.

I agree here too...always a moment for learning. One of my beliefs in education (argh..whatever its called...escapes me at the moment) is giving my students a curiosity about the world around them and getting them interested and excited about learning. I wanted my students to be able to look and try to figure things out and always try to learn from the things around them. Every moment is a teachable moment. So even though you want to, but decided not to homeschool...you can always have teachable moments at home...responsibilities like choires, manners, following routines...etc.

Hmm...are we still arguing? Public school is fine. Homeschool if you have the skills, but if you don't it's best to go with a formal institution. I actually shudder to think what would happen to me if I left my education up to my parents. Not trying to be disrespectful...but since I entered middle school they couldn't keep up with my homework.

~Zoo

It's funny that I don't have experience with schools these days.

It's funny you think you do, considering you went to kinder over 10 years ago. You're not gonna tell me things haven't changed much in at least 10 years? Keep in mine Jythier that you just recently got out of "High School", not kinder. There's a chance your kids won't go to the same school you did and/or chances are they will not get the same teacher you did.

Do I need to be a teacher?

Well, I'll take a piece of Gids reply:

Parents ARE the child's first teacher,

Do I need to have my kids go to school, to know that I don't want them to?

Well, considering you are condemning every school and every teacher before you even gave them a chance, I would think you would try it before you condemn them based on what you see on the news or what you hear from other people.

You're saying I would have a better view of school by having my kids go, rather than going myself?

Well, unless you plan on going to kinder at this age and except to be treated as a kinder gardener, I wouldn't know how you could know how bad it would be for your kids. Do you have legitimate and conclusive proof that any and every school you can take your children is bad for them? Can you, without a shadow of a doubt, guarantee that your "padded room with the imaginary pencils " (sorry, couldn't resist) will keep your children out of harms way? Can you claim that the experiences of your children will be exactly the same as yours?

Yeah, and you have experience being a man because you married one.

I have to agree Tex, even I was a bit off on this one. How exactly can you have man experience while being married to one? Do you pee standing up? Do you scratch yourself in public? Do you enjoy women on trampolines? (I know not all men enjoy these 3 questions, but it's common) Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, it's just that, being a man, I have to kinda question this concept of knowing what it's like to be a man just because you married one. I seriously doubt any woman would accept me saying "I know what it's like to be a woman cause I married one". Trust me, I have no intentions of trying on thongs any time soon.

As for other activities, when we're finished brainwashing them in their padded room with the imaginary pencils they won't even WANT to go outside the house. They will pine for their padding when they are away from it.

I'm sorry to say Jythier, you don't really know kids well, do you? Not only do I have experience with 2 boys, 1 in school, I have experience with having my sisters 3 kids (all teens) around about 12 hours a day and also with my sister-in-laws kids (both teens) and let me tell you they defy your quote above.

That will keep them very safe, for the rest of their lives. Because that's what life is all about, being safe.

That is actually just an illusion. Life is not about being safe, it's about living it. Lock your kids up and you can either end up with socially unstable children, mentally unstable children or just plain rebelled children. Of course theres always a chance they will come out just the way you want them, I just don't think the odds favor you on this.

But hey, they your kids. Do what you think is best. As parents it's our prerogative, as long as you stay within the laws that is.

Angela I'm curious. I didn't see mention of private schools except maybe Montessori but not as an option. Have you considered private school or are you categorizing private schools in the same manner as public schools, the qualms you have? Not sure if you an afford it or not but I'm still curious.

It was a joke. I DON'T know what it's like to be a man. I haven't had the type of experiences required to know what it's like to be a man. That was the point.

It was a joke.

You're right. My bad. Should have read the whole reply. Still, it's an interesting concept I'm sure a woman out there actually believes. lol.

"If I could change the world, well first I'd be capable of homeschooling, but in a perfect world homeschooling wouldn't be necessary because we'd be more community-oriented, people would work together. We wouldn't need to dump our kids into public schools either to save our own sanity, with hopes to promote theirs."...What were you trying to say with that(above) paragraph?

I guess that came from the way I perceive the world around me: more often over the last couple decades, I just don't see kids out playing in their front yards all up and down the streets anymore. I think I may have been a part of the last generation in the USA who could safely play outside until the sun went down without much adult supervision. Nowadays it seems kids spend their free time indoors or at structured social & athletic activities. I don't know how that applies to the "schooling" theme of this article, I guess it's more of a social observation, and it affects how our kids are being raised.

I'll be back and try to tackle some other comments. I'm glad so many people feel as passionately about this topic as I do, even with varying opinions...

Which led to my responsive jokes, Charles. But you and I know all about being misunderstood!

And I never condemned public schools, I just said it was not the best. There are other options that are better than public school, even besides homeschooling. Like private schools. Public schools are NOT the best. That is not saying they are terrible. There are at least as many good teachers as bad teachers out there, too. But through 8th grade, there is only a 0.39% chance that a child will get good teachers for 8 years straight if there are 50-50 good to bad teachers.

Yeah, I might have had a little bit of a scare now and then in high school, but if other people do not see the degredation in the values of society that schools are now teaching our kids, who am I to tell them?

My children do actually play outside quite a bit still, but I don't feel comfortable letting them roam the neighborhood (actually not legal on post for my almost-7-year-old). They play in the backyard and in the open grassy area behind our yard.

Things are different v. when I was growing up, but honestly, I think it's better. My children have a much broader range of experiences than I ever had.

There are benefits to homeschooling and public school, some of which you can ONLY get with one or the other. Like I suggested earlier, though, you might look into a Montessori school. It would have a lot more child-led learning and individualized attention as well as more free-play in the lower grades.

I am currently looking for information on how to incorporate some of the Montessori concepts into my home.

Jythier, I think it depends very much on your community and the specific school that your child will be attending.

If you are meaning private school is better due to religious instruction, that is a whole 'nother can of worms.

Life depends. Everything depends on something. Of course it depends on the community and the school, and I think it's great that Angela checked everything out first and is being involved.

Then perhaps you should not have been so quick to jump on Lula's short-sighted bandwagon, eh?

TEXAS WAHINE POSTS:


I honestly answered AngelaMarie88's question.

Where do you come up with the nonsense that people must have children in school in order to have an opinion about education? I don't live in a vaccuum and I also keep close account of what my taxes are paying for.

As it happens, I've been up, down and all around with my 4 children attending public, private and parochial schools ever since 1973 through today with one in high school and one in college. Besides that, I have 8 brothers and sisters who have children and grandchildren in schools all over the country.
So, I don't think it's hyperbole, when I say that, on the whole, government education isn't the best academically and socially.

No offense, Lula, but your standards and expectations for an education system are probably not in line with what I want for my children.

What is best for your children may sincerely be some crusty old $20K a year Catholic school. You can't take that and apply it to all children in our nation and make such a broad, sweeping claim.

Oh, and Angela, what's up with this JoeKnowledge.net thing. Weird.

There are good teachers, and there are bad teachers. In public, private, religious, and Montessori schools. And in home schools as well.

I agree with you Angela, that it's best that kids get one on one attention and have opportunities for self-directed learning. It's my job to teach facts and theories and let parents do the "moral" teaching at home. If kids have a question about religion, or relationships, etc., I tell them that is something they should talk about with their families because families are in charge of that and not teachers. I let the kids talk about it freely, but I don't get involved in the conversation.

I think that kids need to get used to the "real world" though. In the "real world" when you work for a boss you don't always get to self-direct your work. Sometimes you have to do an assignment that isn't up your alley. You have to work with people who are different colors than you, and have different beliefs, and different languages, and different backgrounds.

Are public schools perfect by any means? No. And I don't think any other form of education is, either.

BUT...I will say that parents make all the difference. If a parent is willing to communicate with me and talk to me about their child and what he or she likes to do outside of school, and what the parent thinks are the student's strengths and weaknesses, etc., I know that I can work with that child so much better. So I think its way cool, Ang, that you're putting so much thought into this for your kiddo. It's kind of nice that he's little yet so if something doesn't work out, you can try something else.

Oh... And just because something is "new" doesn't always make it the "best," you know? And just becuase it's really expensive doesn't necessarily make it great, either.

I know better that in structured settings, all those toys just might be more of a tease than anything else. More time will probably be spent taking roll, getting the kids to sit down and be quiet, standing in straight lines, etc

Well, I know you are very granola but sometimes kids need to learn that life is ordered. Unfortunately, we have to learn to wait our turn (at stoplights, checkouts and in business), we have to learn to be accountable for our choices and actions (getting up for work when we are tired) and a myriad of other things.

I'm not saying that the quality of actual education is better public vrs home-school. It varies from situation to situation but the social skills learned in a classroom are not found as easily in homeschooling situations. Mom will be there to sort out disputes and issues even in public settings, but in school, there is an unbiased person in charge. There will be no blood ties to sway their determination of right/wrong or to give extra leniency in accountability.

I think every child deserves individualized attention from someone who knows and loves them

Why? Why should they get individualized attention every moment of every day? At what point do they learn that mom and dad love them, but the world may not agree or approve of their choices? Age 5, 10 or at 45?

To be treated like a person rather than a number.

At what point in your life were you treated as a person (instead of a number) by anyone other than a friend or family member? At walmart? At the bank? In the Army?

In an individualized setting, there would be nothing like, "Sorry, it's not your turn to talk right now." Or, "Sit down!" Or, "I'm sorry you didn't get enough sleep last night, but school starts at 8am sharp. Suck it up."

Hmmm, MY KIDS here those kinds of comments from me all the time. "It's rude to interrupt, please wait your turn." "Sit down before I beat you with a stick" "You chose not to go to bed last night and you chose to stay up and disobey me....It's not my fault that you are too tired this morning. We still need to go to church...or wherever." I don't see how an individualized setting would change those basic standards.

Or maybe I'm not a very good mother. I demand that my children abide by certain minimum standards and I encourage and expect them to live up to higher standards on a daily basis. I don't think that depending on someone else to raise my kids is the right answer, but to knock public school for being structured is a cheap way to find fault with ourselves for allowing the "attachment parenting" to falter in the face of real life. We can't protect them forever or hold their hand. We are far better parents by teaching them at an early age how to deal with life (albeit in small doses, growing only as they grow) than holding on to the umbilical cord till they are adults.

LH,

You raise several good points in your post, but it almost feels like building up public schooling by bashing homeschooling. Which is as bad as the opposite (building up homeschooling by bashing public schooling). I believe that parents need to prayerfully consider how to raise their kids, and ultimately, decide what is best. Which is what I see Angela doing in the article.

Homeschooling can have many distinct advantages, and in an amazing twist of irony, the parents who have a similar outlook as Angela's are often, in my experience, the best homeschoolers. Why? Because they constantly seek out what is best for their children, and readily admit their shortcomings. Believe it or not, it is actually not difficult to overcome most deficiencies if one puts their mind to it. For instance, music is not my strong suit. But we have, through the years, found many creative ways to educate our children about music without incurring a whole lot of cost (hint #1: college students RAWK!)

This is not to say I'm trying to encourage Angela to homeschool; I'm not. I believe she has honestly arrived at what is the best decision for her and her family. But -- and here's the point where I commend her -- she did it after carefully weighing the options. Too many parents just choose one option or the other, without really thinking it through.

No offense taken, Texas.

Perhaps not socially, but I would imagine that our standards at least academically speaking might be closer. And let's examine that for a moment...talking about public education in general.

It used to be, that by using phonics, all students could read well what they could read by the end of first grade at age 5 or 6. If for some reason they couldn't, they were not passed to second grade. Not any more. Nowadays, it's a task getting them to be able to read well by the end of third grade and if they can't they are still passed to the fourth. Kids who can't read, can't spell. We hear it all the time that students are graduating who can't read. My sister volunteers in a high school in the Denver area whose reading graduation rate is only 13%!!

Almost same story with mathematics. We used to be required to memorize time tables. Not any more. they are teaching a "new" math. It goes like this: 2+2= 5 and that's OK, close enough. The teacher doesn't want to hurt little Johnny or Susie's feelings or self-esteem by correcting them.


Something is very wrong. The public education system is being dumbed down. We can follow this part of it back to 1965 when Pres. Johnson began the process of federal government intervention. The federal government that can't do anything efficiently got directly involved in what should be only state education business. 14 years later the US Dept. of Educ. was established and federal spending on education rose 204%. The spending hasn't slowed down since.

Congress argued that by spending on education, they would see a reduction of crime, delinquency, unemployment, and welfare in the country. Guess what? If you check out what the big problems in schools were in the 50s and 60s (talking, getting out of line, gum chewing, running in halls)and compare those with today (rape, robbery, assault,students on students, students on teachers, bombings,absenteeism, gang warfare, pregnancies, suicide, and STDs, illegal drug use, etc.), then you know we have a whole new can of worms in the education department.

Also consider what has happened in education nationwide since 1965:

SAT scores decreased 67 points from 1965 to 1993.
Graduation rates decreased 3.7% from 1980 to 1995.
66% of 17 year olds do not read at a profecient level.
In 1994, only 18 % of 4th graders, 25% of 8th graders, and 16% of 12th graders performed at proficient levels in mathematics on the NEA progress assessment.

I've been tracking my state's education assessment scores in reading, math and science and they have been going down slowly for the past 10 years.



By 1990, Outcome Based Education (OBE) was fully developed and is endorsed today but goes under the names, "performance based education", "restructuring", and "mastery learning".
The OBE philosophy and key tenets are success for all students, removal of time limitations, i.e. (don't have to read by first grade), and emphasis on what students will know, do and become.
Students are able to take tests until they succeed, teachers teach to the test, and most importantly, instead of emphasizing individual achievement and competition, assessments emphasize qualities such as abilities to work in groups (i.e. group thinking in-- individual thinking and knowledge out). The emphasis nowadays in classrooms is group performance.

My experience with the public school system has been very different. That is not to say that I think public school is perfect. Far from it. However, I have been just as impressed with my own (public school educated) children's progress and academic achievements as those of their peers who are home-schooled or who attend private schools.

As in most things, you get back what you put in. It takes a concerted family effort to create an environment where a child can succeed and excel in all the areas that are vital to a happy, successful adult life.

I am not arguing that public school is better than any other alternative. I just take offense to your broad derision of public education.

One of the comments I have made repeatedly at homeschool conferences over the years is the following:

Before you feel inclined to think homeschooling is all about bashing public schooling, think a moment. Where did most of us obtain the education and the confidence to homeschool our children? Public schools. They have their place.

I was public schooled, and it was perfect for me.

I wouldn't have wanted a private school, I would've hated parochial school, and I would've slit my ever-loving wrists if I was homeschooled.

I kid you not.

I respect those who do it, I respect those who are homeschooled, but I would have killed myself if I was home with the fam instead of going to school.

Call me weird, but that much family togetherness just pisses me off.

Wow! How did a simple musing about a mother who would like to homeschool her kids, but admits she can't become a war of words on the modern horrors of being a child?

As far as I know there is no healthy way to safeguard anyone from all the "what ifs" in the world. All we can do is teach our kids our standards as best we can. When they aren't in eye or earshot of us, it's up to them to make their choices... and enjoy the benefits and suffer the consequences accordingly.

I just don't see kids out playing in their front yards all up and down the streets anymore.

My children do actually play outside quite a bit still, but I don't feel comfortable letting them roam the neighborhood (actually not legal on post for my almost-7-year-old)

I'm presently 31 years old. At the age of 8 my parents decided to move to Puerto Rico and my world changed big time. I was running around the whole town on my bike every day and my mom hardly had a concern over it. I never feared anything other than maybe bumping into the local bully and that would have been just pure bad luck. Just over a year ago I was in Puerto Rico again, this time with my own kids and I didn't have much of a problem allowing my then 7 year old to run around the community we lived in. I never allowed him to go further cause I feared his lack of street smarts when it came to cars and streets with heavy traffic.

But back here in the US I don't allow him any far from around the apartment we live in. Once I don't hear or see them is enough to track them down and bring them back. It really sucks when things are this way.

Which led to my responsive jokes, Charles. But you and I know all about being misunderstood!

Don't remind me please. .

I think in the end the real problem is not how bad a school or a teacher is. It's more of how we, as Americans, allow our society to accept low standards and do nothing about it. Studies done that show not what schools are the best but what schools are the worst. School have created laws, rules and regulations that keep the parents away from the teachers and their kids on school grounds and only accepting scheduled meetings. While I understand the idea of not interrupting the class, it still seems more like a jail and we can not get to our children except waiting till the end of the day or dealing with appointments at theirs and our convenience. The concept of teaching children is also questionable to me. My son comes home with so much homework everyday he spends hours sitting on the dining room table doing it. His teacher wants him to read a book every day and then write about it. I'm wondering with all this work, what does the teacher teach in class? I never had half as much of his weekly homework before Xmas vacation. I often wonder if overwhelming them with work is a good way to get as much into them as possible. I think his homework load is exaggerated and takes away from the time he has after school to be what he is, a kid. He's know in a soccer league and I find myself wondering how he will balance practice and homework while still getting enough sleep. I never had it this hard and I don't think it's necessary to take away their time at home doing homework and taking the little social time they have after school, where as ParaTed2k stated here:

During the school day socialization is discouraged, not encouraged.

And now it's being stolen after school with the ton of homework he gets.

But through 8th grade, there is only a 0.39% chance that a child will get good teachers for 8 years straight if there are 50-50 good to bad teachers.

Well how do you define a good or bad teacher? Some of my students didn't like me because I didn't have prizes, pop, and parties like the other class. I knew what the rules where. I knew what I could and could not do and what I was not allowed to do, yet because I followed the rules, some of my students didnt like that. They hated that I made them earn their incentives.

Yeah, I might have had a little bit of a scare now and then in high school, but if other people do not see the degredation in the values of society that schools are now teaching our kids, who am I to tell them?

Hey, teachers teach what the school board and the local and state gov tell them to teach. Don't complain about public schools when you elect the very people that F up the educational system.

Where do you come up with the nonsense that people must have children in school in order to have an opinion about education? I don't live in a vaccuum and I also keep close account of what my taxes are paying for.

lol...taxes...gotta love that. The hail mary of replies....MY TAXES PAY YOUR SALARY! You CAN have an opnion about education...that certainly doesnt mean its right or anywhere near on track or close to reality or truth. Having kids in the system usually gives you a better understanding of the system. For example...its hard for the parent of a high schooler to explain the reading programs of younger aged children when their youngest is no longer anywhere near that age. IE...example below

It used to be, that by using phonics, all students could read well what they could read by the end of first grade at age 5 or 6. If for some reason they couldn't, they were not passed to second grade. Not any more. Nowadays, it's a task getting them to be able to read well by the end of third grade and if they can't they are still passed to the fourth. Kids who can't read, can't spell. We hear it all the time that students are graduating who can't read. My sister volunteers in a high school in the Denver area whose reading graduation rate is only 13%!!

Because phonics relied on memorization of small parts of the words put together...which is why yougner kids sounded robotic when they talked. NOW, the concept is working with the smallest parts of the word...the phonemes. If child remembers what each letter can sound like, over time, they will be able to blend the sounds together to make words and sentences. Many times when I work with students and they miss a word...I tell them to go back and break the word up...or I use a index card to cover up the entire word and slowly reveal it letter by letter. Nowadays instead of phonics...teachers teach in small guided reading groups based on levels and give students more individualized attention, teaching them strategies the students can use.

Secondly, just because you can read very well......that doesnt mean anything about being a good reader at all. Comprehension is a very important part of reading. Not only should you be able to read, but also understand and comprehend what you are reading.

Spelling also unfortunately isnt covered that much. I asked last year about a spelling program and was told we didn't ahve one because the students werent tested on it. Turns out they ARE tested, but its only a small portion of the state writing assessment. Unfortunately because of the testing we have to go through...focus is being spent more on what the students are tested on.

Also...for reading....keep in mind that only 1 in 4 adults read a book last year. So its hard to put blame on the school system when the parents themselves don't read or practice what they preach.

Almost same story with mathematics. We used to be required to memorize time tables. Not any more. they are teaching a "new" math. It goes like this: 2+2= 5 and that's OK, close enough. The teacher doesn't want to hurt little Johnny or Susie's feelings or self-esteem by correcting them.

lol, if ONLY this were true. Another concept in education that you arent aware of is spiraling. There are a couple of math series out there, one commonly known as Everyday Math (formerly known as Chicago Math) that is based on a spiraling concept. Teach a concept and just graze it, and then next year, they will hit it again and be more familiar with it and do better...and then better the next year and so on. They might say that 2 and 2 being five is close enough....for very young kids because it gets them to memorize the concept of adding with manipulatives and such. But at the same time...most if not all districts have minimum standards students must be at by the end of the year. If I was teaching and had a child in K who was not doing well with his math...but did OK with everything else...Id have no real reason to hold him back. ONLY if a student is doing poorly across the board should they be held back. Also, most schools have some sort of retention process to see if a child should be held back. I had to go through this process last year with two students in my class.
Another thing to keep in mind that often, a parent has the final say in holding their child back. If they don't want it...then it wont happen. Our school just changed policy last year giving the district a little more power in the decisions of retaining.
Nice try on the self-esteem line though...kudos for trying.

If you check out what the big problems in schools were in the 50s and 60s (talking, getting out of line, gum chewing, running in halls)and compare those with today (rape, robbery, assault,students on students, students on teachers, bombings,absenteeism, gang warfare, pregnancies, suicide, and STDs, illegal drug use, etc.), then you know we have a whole new can of worms in the education department.

Wow, please don't tell me you are saying the current problems in schools today are related to the education department.

In case you havent noticed, there are many people involved in a childs education...yet the only ones held accountable are the school. Not the parents raising the child, or the child / student themselves...just the schools.

Students are able to take tests until they succeed, teachers teach to the test, and most importantly, instead of emphasizing individual achievement and competition, assessments emphasize qualities such as abilities to work in groups (i.e. group thinking in-- individual thinking and knowledge out). The emphasis nowadays in classrooms is group performance.

I personally believe in giving students multiple chances to show their ability level, not just one. So yeah...letting them retake a test can be good. I dont know about you...but Ive panicked on tests before...stressed about them...etc. There are many factors for why a student doesnt perform well on tests.
Teachers teach to the test...well DUH. We have a guy running the country demanding asessments and constant improvement of schools. More and more testing. To give you an idea...we spent the better part of December, and I think the last week of Nov...along with the first week of Jan getting students ready to take the state test in the middle of Jan. Then later on in March or April...the process went all over again for the spring version of the same test. Then we had another state test we had to take. PLUS the nations report card test. PLUS, district assessments like STAR math and STAR reading. PLUS, Accellerated math and accellerated reading tests (Star and AR tests were throughout the year as well). Thats just what I can think of off the top of my head. NOT to mention my own assessments I needed to give on the various subjects. With all the testing we did, I still had to find time to squeeze in the concepts. And as teachers, we don't want the students to bomb the tests either. Because if you dont meet AYP for a certain amount of time, then you lose funding, and if that continues, the school shuts down.

I dont remember seeing any assessment that assesses on abilities to work in groups. You are, I believe, confusing that with standards and / or benchmarks set forth by the state. IE...is your child able to work productivly in a group setting, with others...etc. That isn't really an assessment and in this particular case is more subjective based on teacher observation.