Yes the points are simple, and sure they could be ignored, but at the same time since the points are simple they could just as simply be done correctly rather than incorrectly. Also I don't think that simple points that are continually done incorrectly should be continually ignored.

After re-checking and re-checking the scores and threads, you are quite correct Mumble.

This is my fault as much as Firebender's as i put my name to them. I as commissioner should have taken a more active role in score calculations and for that i apologize. Though i do agree with TGE and that the success of the league should be measured by the participation and not the scores.

That being said, if not for the scores and the incentive to improve one's game then why play, so of course the scores, though not the be all and end all of the league should be properly maintained.

With this in mind i propose this. On top of my own increased vigilance in score keeping i would like to nominate Mumblefratz as the official score keeper. Firebender would still be Vice Commish and assist in the scoring but along with mine and mumble's appraisals would only then post any scores.

Don't take anything to heart Firebender, the mistake is mine as well as yours but i feel it highlights the need for another approach.

I really don't feel the need to assign blame. I know that FB has put in substantial effort. Also everyone makes mistakes and I am not immune to making them either.

However with that said what has truly annoyed me is not any one single occurrence but a continual pattern of having to go back and point out how such and such a thing has already been discussed and decided. It just gets tiresome. It's also by no means only FB that seems to need this kind of guidance.

I went to the trouble of posting results clearly prefaced as not official for the purpose of providing guidance for what was obviously going to be a complicated scoring round. Instead of questioning the validity of points illustrated by my example and discussing for example how the 5th and 6th players should be treated (which had been discussed to death at the time BTW), my examples were ignored and something totally contrary to what had been agreed was posted as official results with total certainty. It’s this total certainty of being correct when in fact it was actually incorrect that's the most intolerable thing.

To add insult to injury this false sense of certainly was so secure that jokes could be made casting doubt on peoples understanding of how scoring really works. In the first place no one (not even myself) should be so absolutely sure that they may have not made a mistake and secondly they shouldn’t be making jokes to further confuse an already confusing situation.

People have seemed to take my stance as one that cares about score at the expense of everything else. Nothing could be further from the truth. I don’t care about score, I care about rules. I may have some opinion about what the rules should be but even that is not of utmost importance to me. I think the rules should be set by all the participants but once set should be followed without the requirement of having to re-argue, re-state and re-agree on things that have already been discussed to death.

Instead of official score keeper I would prefer to be official rule keeper. Let FB continue his work as scorekeeper but let him be driven by a set of rules that we can agree on and once we agree on them then hopefully we won’t have to go back and argue from first principles each and every time something new comes up.

Obviously some rules relate to scoring, perhaps most of them do, but in any case I think there is a distinction between the two roles. I think the biggest thing we’ve been lacking is a clear and concise set of rules that everybody understands and most people agree with. Let me provide a hopefully simple rule framework that is hopefully easy to follow and most of our issues will be greatly reduced if not eliminated.

Finally, I have been loath to discuss this for fear of hurting anyone’s feelings. I do understand that FB has put in a lot of work and I don’t want him to feel that his effort hasn’t been appreciated. I also don’t want him to feel that I am mad at him or that I think less of him because I don’t. It’s just that time and time again I seem to find myself saying that such and such isn’t the way that we agreed to do it and then having to go back and search through four threads and literally a thousand replies to find the necessary quote to prove my point. This effort has drained all the fun out of the league for me and can't continue.

Quick question with regards to the results: what is the difference between the Influence victory for some players and Cultural conquest (none I suppose)?

Cultural Conquest is how the game reports the win to the MV. A Cultural Conquest occurs when your influence is above 75% of the galaxy for 10 turns. It's just semantics, they're both the same thing. Same with Beyond Mortality and Tech win. It just makes thing clearer if everyone uses the same terminology.

By all means Mumble you have the position of official MVL Rule keeper. Do with it as you please. I was still going to create a thread of just the rule book, but i would be more than happy for you to do this. You have shown far more patience and skill in reading back through many threads and sifting out the finer points.

I realize that you were not blaming anybody or doing anything but pointing out the issue's, i felt i needed to put my name out there for blame to show Fire that i was as mistaken as he...

To ensure that we can move on from this and not have similar issues i would like to see someone help fire with scores. I believe Silverbeacher has offered to do this and i support this idea. If that is not possible i do believe there were others....

With my increased vigilance, Mumble overseeing the rules and their implementation and Fire and Silverbeacher taking care of the amassing of scores, i think we have a handle on the issue from now on.

A quick yea or nea from everyone else and we are set.

The Commish.

We have a referee   Just like the NHL.

YEA.

YEA vote from me, I'm glad that we've found an amicable and productive way to resolve this. And yes, I am more than willing to take on the position of Fire's assistant.

Hell yea!

yes on mumble as the rule keeper.

As for the scoring... I am rather tired of the drama etc from FB. It is a bit of a tedious job but not a hard one. Imo the results should have been done in the following manner WITHOUT drama:

Post 1, its closed, I am tabulating results.

Post 2, here are the initial results and how I calculated them. Preferably with a summary at the bottom showing fastest/highest scoring 3 games and the exact time/score for them. A big * beside the 4 necessary games showing that it completed X requirement or z requirement.

The drama etc was unnecessary. Calculating the results incorrectly was unnecessary. I mean.. a mistake here or there, but basic obvious things were forgotten when they were tabulated. Do the job, post it, done. There is nothing else attached to this job imo.

As a sidenote.. why don't we have a thread each round where the ONLY allowed posts are those that officially submit a game for the round to the MVL? Then there is no need to dig, etc. There could be 1 thread entitled MVL Round 4 discussion and MVL Round 4 results. The results should have NO posts by anyone that is not a submission. It would make it easier for ALL concerned imo.

Vilgan

I support the idea of Silverbeacher tabulating & tracking the scores. That said, the scoring rules should be clear enough to everyone so that they can make their own calculations if they feel like it...which I will be doing myself, as that sort of thing is fun for me.    It's a good way to strategize as well.

I agree with Vilgan that all the drama and acrimony was just plain silly. I hope all involved parties can take a step back and look at how they ALL contributed to the problems.

Sentient species taste better...

It's a good sentiment to try and separate the various postings, if it were as easily said as done then it would already have been accomplished. Perhaps some wise sage that is above petty "drama and acrimony" could wave their magic wand and simply make it so. However as far as I know we all live in an imperfect world where drama and acrimony need to be dealt with, resolved and moved beyond. In this case I think we have actually done so. However in my opinion it's not the drama and acrimony that's silly but the assumption that drama and acrimony should never occur that's the true silliness.

But back to the actual point, as I have been saying *if* we can get support for the MVL into the AltMeta then a whole lot of issues regarding the complexity of the submission thread as well as the tabulating of game scores become lot easier. There will always be the need for human oversight and therefore always be the potential of things getting messed up but a nice front end for game submission along with a pretty display of the results will certainly go a long way to making life in the league easier.

I don't see any necessary need for more people to become the opperators of the League.

But if the community sees it fit to appoint Mumble as a rule keeper I won't appose.

After all as the League grows it makes sense to have more helping hands around.

Vilgan, you will find no arguement from me. I do wish the scores were done and dusted in a non bias and less humorous way too. But unless Fire resigns from the position, i would hate to take it away from him. Perhaps Silver's appointment to the role will help things.

As for responding in threads....i would love for the round thread to just have game sumbitions..

I will create the two threads as you suggested for round 4 and we will see how it goes.



agreed. Scoring should be transparent so all can see and track as they wish. I'm sure it will be even more so in the future with Silver's aid and Mumble administering the rules.

I've always considered you to be the only "old and wise sage" in these parts Mumble... (yes i know i made the old part up, but it seemed funnier that way...)

Seriously though, what can we do to get Kryo to help us out on this. I know he did address it before and was too busy, IIRC. Count me in Mumble on helping this cause. What a justification it would be for the MVL to get into the Altmeta.

Next stop, official MV inclusion in GC3!!!!

The Commish.

I don't really see this as a permanent lifetime appointment. I would hope that this would require some amount of defining a limited set of simple rules along with a bit of inevitable adjustment. After this I think things would become stable and there shouldn't be much need for a professional rule maker.

In fact this process has already been happening, the one thing that's been missing is a single place where these rules are written up, discussed, and then agreed to. The critical thing is having an easy way to refer to what's been agreed to without having to search 4 threads or so and very literally a thousand posts.

I really agree with the old adage "Good fences make good neighbors". It's really annoying to have to argue about picayune and pedantic points, particularly when it seems we have to re-argue these same picayune and pedantic points the next time. I think having a few clear and concise rules that people agree with and understand will greatly reduce potential argument.

Futher more on this...do we fell any rule changes are needed for round 4. With you, Mumble taking care of the rule implementation i think round 4 will go rather smoothly.

I for one was happy with the rules.

I admit I wasn't sure if I exactly understood all the bonuses when the round began, but it was rather transparent to me as the scores were tabulated.

I think one of the "officials" should make a post with an outline of the rules simply named MVL rulebook. The OP can always be adjust to reflect any changes needed down the road and it gives a one stop place for people to see exactly what the rules are. Even if it collects a thousand replies you never have to look any further than the OP for the current rules.

I had this planned before my work hiatus and was getting back to it now. But since Mumble is the official rule keeper, i will leave this task to him.

I'm sure he will do a better job than i anyway.

Check the OP guys, i have updated the ladder, it is in the reverse of this order that the draft will take place.

The Commish.

test

I think silver's idea of taking the weekend off is a good one.

But when you get back:

Can someone explain this "draft" thing to me in layman's terms.

Now I go to play football. Ciao!

-Fire

Basicly the five team captains will be able to choose two players each to be on their team.

team E will kick things off as they have 0 points. Then it will continue in reverse order of the ladder. Something like this,

Team E picks any member of the league (bar any captain),
The A-team makes their choice,
The Blade Runners make their choice,
The Domination of Death make theirs and then
The Celestial Crusaders make theirs.

This is done over once more and then the rest of the teams will be placed randomally by me, using my random generator.

This is the proposal and i am not sure yet if it has gathered enough support to be introduced. I think everyone is just letting everything settle down a bit.

Hopefully there will be more activity on the threads in the next day or so as i want to see the league move on and prosper.

The Commish.

Is there any interest, in light of recent events, in continuing the league?

There seems to be many rumours of many players leaving the league. If so who is left and is there enough to continue playing?

I'm still here and I implore those that are/were thinking of leaving to just step back and realize it wasn't much more than a little miscommunication. If people had just looked at the other MVL thread before commenting on the first one seen, this would of all been avoided. Over the past three months quite a few of you have put in a lot time trying to ensure the success of the league, don't give up on it now.

I hope everyone else feels this way DA. With round 4 we were so close to having the best formula yet, and with the draft and a fifth team it shapes to be the best round yet.

It is my hope that at the very least everyone can give the league another chance and you will see that this round will make all the difference. You too Mumble, i hope you come back for round 4.