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Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Not all strategy games benefit from multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer. 

The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making.  Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world.  The Corporate Machine had multiplayer.  The Political Machine had multiplayer.

In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games.  Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity.  I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.

From this, I've concluded two things:

1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.

2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.

To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature.  Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.

But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth).  But the gameplay was not.  We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.

I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.

#1 It sacrifices single player features.  Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer.  What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.

But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies.  The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer.  That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.

My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games.  But what was sacrificed in exchange?  There's no campaign.  There's no in-depth scenarios.  No in-depth random events.  You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what.  Do you think this is a coincidence?  No random civil wars based on certain criteria?  No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while?  I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.

When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it.  We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal.  Same thing.

So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign.   I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape.  But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design?  And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.

Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience.  There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations.  Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on.  In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?

Similarly, there's diplomacy.  Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer.  The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations.  That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.

#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with.  And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).

Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50.  That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference.  Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99.  Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.

If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion.  Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it.  And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.

Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing.  We even have a multiplayer design.  But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.

#3 It would have changed the design priorities.

When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface.  So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.

Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it.  Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one.  The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships.  The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over.  Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).

But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently.  Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are.  Efficient is great in a multiplayer game.  But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.

And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:

The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:

And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?

In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.

It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance.  But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure.  And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.

But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind.  And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience. 

I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player.  The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer. 

And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't.  In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).

For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game. 

We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games.  But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game. 

 

3,179,761 views 616 replies | Pinned
Reply #201 Top
Pursuing additional customers is only desirable *if* the benefits gained from those additional customers offset the resources spent to acquire those additional customers. Generally this involves questions of income/expenses, but there are obviously other possible factors.
I agree to that Jeysie. However, the Devs said that it wouldnt be too hard to implement MP capabilities in the game, so given the fact that so much interest has been manifested for that particular feature and that it is (according to the Devs) something let's say...relatively cheap to do, it's more than obvious that there would be considerable revenue for such an investment. And guys, please let's not get over-reactive by qualifying other member's comments like "cheap shots" or "complete crap". An opinion is an opinion, this is a forum and we're all entitled to have our own points of view. I think DragonEmperor gave us 3 magnificent pointers. Also, I would like to ask FROGBOY (again) to please provide us with some insider info about the company's POV on the MP issue. Just to avoid any empty confrontations between the comunity and because I think that people like me who actually bought the game, expecting MP features (and got SERIOUSLY DISSAPOINTED) deserve that.
Reply #202 Top
Or how about this for an alternative to a MP option: Adaptive/Learning AI. Instead of sacrificing things to play against another player, why not the ability that the strategies used by the people playing the game will be recorded and have the AI pick and use these strategies in gameplay as well. That way even though you are not actually playing against another person, you would in effect be playing against the next best thing, an AI that mimics the strategies of people who are at that difficulty level. Granted this will be difficult at best to implement and even with it would probably take a few tries to be effective.


Interesting suggestion... based on my programming knowledge we're not going to see anything like this during our lifetime because this would take extreme development time, QA testing, and increase system requirements. And even when one does finally appear it still will not match to the competitive level of another human. Also the pure joy of sharing defeats and victories with relatives / friends... which can't be done with computer AI. Also the diplomacy details between humans can be much much more specific, detailed, and flexible then anything from computer AIs.

An expansion for this game is already planned and only a percentage of those which bought the original will buy the expansion. Adding the multiplayer option can be one of ten features in the expansion which will increase the percentage of buyers and increase this games current community which increases sequels. Since a funky hotseat already exists within Gal_Civ_2 it shouldn't be difficult to have the game work for Hotseat and PBEM. Also with a larger gaming community word of mouth will spread about the game even more which means more sales of the game which means better/more sequels.

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Ohh... this is a little off-topic.... but here's a great TBS game with lots of content coming soon:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/Dom3/1.htm

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Reply #203 Top
Just got the game yesterday off newegg. My opinions: I did originally buy this game with the intention of playing multiplayer. Without that option, I am enjoying taking my time to learn the game and what I can do inside the randomly generated universes it presents me. I may or may not learn the AI strategies right away. Either way, I'll enjoy the game for what it is. I would personally pay up to about $30 for an expansion that included: campaigns, more fluffy customization options, and multiplayer (tactical battles would be a great addon as well). How would I want to see multiplayer executed? Hot-seat would be great, really. So would LAN. For an example of an easy to use multiplayer interface in a strategy game, look at Homeworld: Cataclysm. I found it to be fairly easy to use, and easy to find games, and easy to chat if I wanted. With that out of the way, we all know that one thing many of us who enjoy GalCiv2 spend a lot of time doing is customizing ships. If it is possible, it would work VERY well to add as a universal feature, the ability to save drafts, if you will, of ship designs, and load them later. For multiplayer, (if possible) one way of pleasing everyone would be to enforce customizing ships only in between turns (and allowing people to save an load their designs to keep the game going without rushing anyone).
Diplomacy could (in mul;tiplayer games) turn into higher trade bonuses and/or bonuses regarding domestic political/social/ethical advancement. I would also love to see tactical battles, if the AI could be 'taught' to fight them, GREAT. If not, make them a multiplayer only feature. Either way, they should be something that does not start until the turn is over, the player started the fight should be asked if they want the battle to be auto-played for them or not (anyone remember Lords of the Realm 2?), and if so, the players not engaged in the battle should be able to take their next turn, but should not be allowed to end that turn. Just the thoughts of someone who plays everything from flightsims, 'to those online FPS games', to RTS, to NeverWinter Nights, to TBS. What do you (the community at large, and the StarDock developers like FrogBoy) think?
Reply #204 Top
As Piranha pointed out no 4x TBS game has been really made for multiplayer.


I could disagree with this. I love multiplayer as the next guy, but the games can frikin drag on for ages! I cant play a game for more than 4 hours in one sitting, even 4 hours is pushign it especially when you knwo you will loose. That's why playing Moo2 is such a frikin chore. You have the buildup, then you meet someone, oh what's this they are so far ahead of you, why bother playign another 2 hours loosing..

Civ4 ahs great multiplayer because the core design fo the game had it in mind. The game was made very fun and fast paced for multiplay and it works.
Reply #205 Top
I really like Moo2 multiplayer. I play it sometimes little bits at a time. Spen an hour or so a few nights a week.

I end up thinking of it as a tournament rather than a single game.

Games take a long time but they are most enjoyable.
Reply #206 Top
4x games evolved from Chess and Checkers etc. Where are the 16th century AIs.
Reply #207 Top
I think the ideal way to do mulitplayer for a game like this would be very similar to the way metalknights does it.

Basically, each turn lasts a set amount of time, usually between 12 and 48 hours. Each player plays his or her at some point during that time. Obviously this would require some sort of dedicated server to host the games. However, you could join quite a few games at one time. Games could last weeks or even months at normal play speeds, so having options like highly increase research and production rates might help.

A variation is to make a turn end once every player has played, which would help speed up the game.
Reply #208 Top
I would also like to see a MP in GalCiv2, mainly because I have a close mate that loves to play RTS games with me for hours. So Hot-Seat and/or LAN would be quite nice. We even buy a lot of alcohol and then spend 1 weekend for a gigantic world @ Civ4 and acting like normal 'enemies'. I think in games like Civ or GalCiv it's important that the players act a bit like a computer AI. It makes the game more interesting when you know that your friend isn't always honest to you in the game. (Not like: Hey buddy, let's research this and then this and then trade and so we dominate the AI)
Reply #209 Top
the only games ive ever really enjoyed in multiplayer are FPS games. strategy games just arent made for it IMO.

BTW congrats on GC2 being #7 in gamespots 10 most popular list for march. and for 9 rating there.
Reply #211 Top
I am interested in multiplayer, but only for coop. Like, me and 2 friends run 3 civs and take on the rest of the universe. We use civ4 now with the team setting to start out that way as an example. Any chance of incorporating something like this? It's really good for work. You Gal civ in a window for 5 minutes, then (during friends turn) work for 5 minutes. The time in game lets ideas percolate through the brain so you work more efficiently. Really, it's all for the sake of the job.
Reply #212 Top

Those sound like awesome civ4 matches vagabard!!! I'll try that with my LANpals this week. Thanks for the idea dude!

Reply #213 Top
/signed ( @OP Frogboy )

I personally despise multiplayer games in the strategy field, simply due to the amount of idiots and school kids.

Yes, MP helps hammering out flaws in your strategies. Yes, they help you get better at gaming ...
...
...
I'm sorry, but I play to relax as I have a job, that taxes me already and which I am good at, I dont need another one
Reply #214 Top
Unfortunatly it seems the idiots and School Kids will not go away so you learn who is good to set up a PBEM with.
Reply #215 Top
Greetings:


It seems that the "very vocal minority" gets larger every time I check this forum.


ForesterGC: Your post about the time devoted by the Developers to other programs instead of this one made perfect sense. I am sorry that not everyone can readily understand sarcasm as a tool for highlighting sense.


J3PH42: I agree with your comments and suggestions. The addition of saved ship designs makes perfect sense, as might an "off-game" ship design program that allows you to take care of that potentially time-consuming yet always enjoyable section of the game, during your off-game hours. Of course, this may be too much to ask for at first. For the time being, I suppose we should simply rely on our gaming partners' patience.


Thank you for the time taken in reading this post.
Reply #216 Top
Hehe. Sounds like Astax is a better Civ player than Moo2 player

@ LordJPhillip
You ever tried moo2-MP with kali or hamachi? Dont remember your nickname.

Your post about the time devoted by the Developers to other programs instead of this one made perfect sense. I am sorry that not everyone can readily understand sarcasm as a tool for highlighting sense.

Yes. Thats sad.

Reply #217 Top
Starcraft. Simply one of the best online multi-player computer games there is. It's got some years on its back (meaning its a fairly older game) but it still kicks ass over MANY of the games that are being put out today.

I'm always up for a good match on there if anyone wants to lpay.
Reply #218 Top
Well .. as far as multiplayer goes .. I would like it ...

one simple reason ... LAN ..

I usually have 3 or 4 friends come over for a monthly LAN game session, and this would ROCK for some 3 or 4player VS or COOP action. We would probably even settle for some sort of Hotseat play...

Time restraints could be configured for turn length, upon start of game, so that all actions are planned out and when the timer is up, all actions then process for all players.
Reply #219 Top
just to say that I agree 100% with the first post
I also liked master of magic by the way
Reply #221 Top
A variation is to make a turn end once every player has played, which
would help speed up the game.

Hotseat is one thing - there you are preserving the sequential nature of the turn-taking. Simutaneous movement/turns isn't just a variation - it's a fundamentally different game.
Reply #222 Top
I usually play lan games as I still live in the land of dial-up. But it's good.

Played lots of intercontinental 4ways with some americans on dial-up. Absolutely playable. Do you play the dos or win version? Intercontinental dos should be even faster than win in LAN
Reply #223 Top
To MP or not to MP that is the question

I understand all the SP specific nice stuff, and love a good SP game which has not sacrificed gameplay for some tacked on mp

that said a shared experience is a good experience - and I would love to be able to play GalCivs 2 ala Civ4 MP with some mates over the LAN - it would be awsome

as for internet bah I never play anything over the internet - too many no-life freaks trolling around

I have played several HOI2 game LAN multiplay and had memorable game experiences every time



either way GC2 is a great game which I will no doubt play for months - it would be nice to be able to share that with friends - somehow telling them about it just isnt the same
Reply #224 Top
To MP or not to MP that is the question

I understand all the SP specific nice stuff, and love a good SP game which has not sacrificed gameplay for some tacked on mp

that said a shared experience is a good experience - and I would love to be able to play GalCivs 2 ala Civ4 MP with some mates over the LAN - it would be awsome

as for internet bah I never play anything over the internet - too many no-life freaks trolling around

I have played several HOI2 game LAN multiplay and had memorable game experiences every time



either way GC2 is a great game which I will no doubt play for months - it would be nice to be able to share that with friends - somehow telling them about it just isnt the same