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Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Not all strategy games benefit from multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer. 

The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making.  Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world.  The Corporate Machine had multiplayer.  The Political Machine had multiplayer.

In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games.  Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity.  I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.

From this, I've concluded two things:

1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.

2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.

To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature.  Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.

But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth).  But the gameplay was not.  We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.

I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.

#1 It sacrifices single player features.  Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer.  What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.

But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies.  The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer.  That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.

My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games.  But what was sacrificed in exchange?  There's no campaign.  There's no in-depth scenarios.  No in-depth random events.  You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what.  Do you think this is a coincidence?  No random civil wars based on certain criteria?  No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while?  I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.

When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it.  We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal.  Same thing.

So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign.   I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape.  But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design?  And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.

Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience.  There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations.  Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on.  In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?

Similarly, there's diplomacy.  Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer.  The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations.  That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.

#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with.  And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).

Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50.  That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference.  Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99.  Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.

If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion.  Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it.  And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.

Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing.  We even have a multiplayer design.  But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.

#3 It would have changed the design priorities.

When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface.  So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.

Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it.  Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one.  The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships.  The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over.  Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).

But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently.  Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are.  Efficient is great in a multiplayer game.  But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.

And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:

The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:

And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?

In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.

It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance.  But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure.  And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.

But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind.  And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience. 

I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player.  The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer. 

And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't.  In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).

For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game. 

We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games.  But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game. 

 

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Reply #151 Top
I totally agree with the absence of multiplayer. I have a demanding full time job, a marriage, a golf handicap to work on and a million other things to do in my life, as well playing strategy games. As a result of that I put in about 6-10 hrs of game time a week, spread across the whole week in sessions of 30mins-2 hrs. To have try to arrange time with other players around my schedule and theirs is utterly impossible. So its single player all the way for me.
A completely self-centered view for no multiplayer...
no interest in what will increase this games community.
no interest in sharing the game with his wife or relatives... the game is TBS making multiplayer easy where one game can be played throughout the week or month... this isn't RTS !

Again TBS multiplayer can be played throughout a week or month... in fact you can do both a singleplayer game and a multiplayer game. I advise trying some TBS multiplayer games which will hopefully open your views, allowing you to consider what's best for everyone... which includes its gaming community, the developers(more_game_sales), and people you know.
Reply #152 Top
You know, I really don't understand why people are making such a big deal out of this.

What happens if you're a multi-player fan? Well, you have *gobs* of games to choose from. Pretty much every single modern game that could remotely be multiplayer has it. It's not like you're hurting for choices.

What happens if you're a singleplayer fan? Well, you read review after review of the latest games where the reviewer pretty much comes right out and says that the SP portion isn't as good as the MP portion. So I guess if you only play SP you just have to settle for not as good an experience from your games.

I like being able to play a game at my own pace and on my own terms, something I find I usually can't do while playing MP, so I don't enjoy MP much. And even if I did enjoy MP, there are times when you want to play a game but not fuss with finding people to play with.

I can understand MP fans wanting the option, but I don't see how lack of MP is an outright "flaw". The company chose to focus on delivering a good SP experience, those of us who only play SP are grateful, and people who only play MP can go choose from the tons of other modern games with MP available. Not to mention that Stardock has already mentioned putting out an MP expansion if the demand is high enough so you'll get the best of both worlds anyway.

Peace & Luv, Liz
Reply #153 Top
Agree with Liz (Jeysie), and said something similar a few pages back.

There is tons of stuff for the MP fans out there, why in heck do they begrudge the SP fans getting a decent game after such a long dry spell? Decent SP games are few and far between, its nice to finally get one.

I know there are all those MP guys out there who say that MPis the ONLY way to play.

Well, I disagree. Been there, done that, didn't enjoy the experience. Playing against random a-hats online is about as much fun as a root canal via the rectum. And as for coordinating a game with my friends? They have lives (jobs, wives, kids, etc.) so if we do coordinate something, it won't be so we can sit in front of a computer some more. And as for email games, waiting a couple days between turns when so many turns are simply click next turn and wait for something to happen is BORING.

We did a couple games of SEIV PBEM. It got old. Real old.

Nope, I consider MP insanely over rated.

Hey you guys who like it, knock yourselves out. But leave us SP guys alone, and don't begrudge us the few games that are actually for us.

And if Stardock thinks they can make a profit off a $25 MP expansion (no way in Hades it will only be $10), then they will make it. Personally I doubt it would be worth their bother, and that they'll likely take a loss on it, but its their call.

I won't buy an MP expansion though. No interest to this cat.
Reply #154 Top
Stardock made a good SP TBS game and we want to show that it is wanted and economicly fesable to make an expansion pack for LAN, Hotseat, IP, and PBEM and not in any way destroy/change/get rid of any of the fluff that makes the game good.

Price would not affect anyone who does not want the TBS MP stuff since it is an expansion pack you have to buy seperatly.

The SP world and the TBS MP World will be happy and Stardock will make $$$ in the end I think along with WoM advertising positivly.

Many of the MP games that are out are junk since they are made for true MP; not the TBS MP we want.
Reply #155 Top
Very well said ForesterGC! Us MP people don't want to ruin the SP game at all, and if it was necessary to put out a SP game first to make a great game then more power to ya! It would REALLY be great if now a MP patch/expansion came out not too long after. The SP game is great and I'm glad it is! I will enjoy it I'm sure, but then the yearning to share the experience of such a great game with others i.e.: my wife and 2 brothers (in my case) becomes overwhelming! I wanted to wait until there was even a possibility of multiplayer being added before I purchased the game but I broke down and got it thanks to all the great reviews and people happy with it, but already I wish I could play this cool game vs my wife. Makes me sad. I would be glad to buy a second copy and expansions right now for the MP experience. Oh well, I can only hope it happens.... I just wish I didn't have to wait until ?. Did Galatic Civ I ever get multiplayer? If not guess I'm hoping for a miracle.

Reply #156 Top
Forester: I don't mind that some people are saying that "Hey, great game, if you make a multiplayer expansion to it I'll buy it." What bothers me is some people saying "Geez, I want MP now, why did you release the game without it?"

They made a decision to concentrate on SP *first* and not wait for multiplayer, and, as Kato said, why begrudge us SP fans that fact when most modern games nowadays focus on MP and shaft SP to some degree or another.

I'm basically just annoyed at the "No multiplayer = flaw" mentality I see some people (and all the reviews I've seen so far) are having, because IMHO it isn't.

Peace & Luv, Liz
Reply #157 Top
but I don't see how lack of MP is an outright "flaw".

Where did you pull that information?? I haven't seen any posts claiming this statement.
That's one wild twisted assumption.......... wait I'm sure you might find one someplace, but no where near is this the typical response in regards to multiplayer.

I know there are all those MP guys out there who say that MPis the ONLY way to play.

Another wild twisted assumption, because MANY gamers do both MP and SP.

if Stardock thinks they can make a profit off a $25 MP expansion (no way in Hades it will only be $10), then they will make it. Personally I doubt it would be worth their bother, and that they'll likely take a loss on it, but its their call.

Based on the FAQ section... multiplayer will " probably " become available via download or expansion. And if it does get released within an expansion anyone with half a brain KNOWS it will be more than just the MP option... give the developers some credit.


ForesterGC and Crash23 gave excellent logical posts.

Here's a quick list of benefits for adding multiplayer as an expansion or download:
1) Increases Galactic_Civ_2 Gaming Community which increases word of mouth which
A) increases sales which increases sequels for the game.
B) increases MODS/Suggestions which can improve options, AI, etc.,
C) larger community means more active forums which means more gamers helping each other
2) Multiplayer will gain its own forum and very very very few multiplayer posts will appear here... unlike now.
3) This greatly increases the games replay value for anyone who's not stuck in a SP only world.
4) Multiplayer taps into the multiplayer gaming community market which means more sales increasing chances for sequels.

I'm sure I missed some... but most of these reasons clearly should encourage everyone to be interested in the expansion/download having multiplayer.
Reply #158 Top


but I don't see how lack of MP is an outright "flaw".


Where did you pull that information?? I haven't seen any posts claiming this statement.
That's one wild twisted assumption.......... wait I'm sure you might find one someplace, but no where near is this the typical response in regards to multiplayer.


Then you haven't been reading the reviews in various place, and some of the posts here. There are definitely those that say that lacking MP is a flaw. Gamespy specifically complains if a game lacks MP or the MP isn't what they think it should be.

The irony of that is that if you pick up traditional wargames (a friend of mine has shelf after shelf of them) almost all them note how suitable the game is to solitaire play.



I know there are all those MP guys out there who say that MP is the ONLY way to play.


Another wild twisted assumption, because MANY gamers do both MP and SP.


Actually, you might be surprised. I've seen a lot of posts on various forums (Gamespy, Paradox, Bioware - for NWN - Matrix Games, to name a few forums) from people who claim that they only play MP. Similarly I have seen posts from people like me that can't stand MP. I think its becoming a lot more stratified than you may think.

Whether its the majority that are that stratified, or not, I couldn't say. But there is definitely a very vocal group of gamers that claim that developers shouldn't waste their time on computer AI and only make MP games. So I figure its only appropriate that in response I be vocal in campaigning for my preferred game style.


Based on the FAQ section... multiplayer will " probably " become available via download or expansion


That's one way of reading it. It isn't what they said, but you're free to interpret as you will.


we are writing it in such a way that we’ll be able to add multiplayer in later if there's demand."


Notice the "if there's demand" part. That isn't a probable, that is an if. Its known as a conditional in programming circles. Is there a demand? Well obviously, if even one person asks for it, that is a demand. The better question is whether there is enough demand to warrant devoting the resources to it.

They then said "what we’ll probably do is have an expansion pack that adds multiplayer". That is IF they do it at all.

Which then brings up the next points:


The fact is, though, that most people don’t play multiplayer and I don’t want to divert resources into that.

When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it. We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal. Same thing.


So, before they decide to do it, they have to decide if its worth the resources to do it. If they think it will sell well, then sure, they'll do it. But if they decide that there are a couple hundred rabid pro-MP guys, and they'll buy it, but hardly anyone else will, then I seriously doubt they'll bother (even at $20 x 250, that is only $5000 - not exactly a strong return on their time).


And if it does get released within an expansion anyone with half a brain KNOWS it will be more than just the MP option... give the developers some credit.


Well, no, that isn't what they said.

What they said was "The people who want multiplayer can thus buy that feature and those that don’t aren’t forced to have to pay for it."

So most likely any such enhancement will be MP only for those that want it. Which reinforces that it has to make its own money back.

They could go the Civ 3 Play the World route. It had some nice SP enhancements. And was a complete dog when it came to MP. But that was a $25 dollar expansion, and I didn't really feel I got my money's worth (and I doubt the MP crowd thought so either - and yes I tried it on MP, and it really, REALLY sucked).

So if they released a normal expansion pack that had a few things and MP, a lot of us would be wondering "do I really want to pay for MP that'll never play, oh and a couple little thingies that probably only marginally improve the game?"

As for how MP is going to vastly increase the game's sales and make things so amazingly wonderful for everyone. You're reaching. I mean really.

Face it kids, this is a PC based TBS Space Conquest game. It is EXTREMELY niche market. You honestly think adding MP is going to suddenly draw in the twitch gamers who normally play MP FPS or RTS, or those that spend every available waking moment playing some MMORPG or another?

Not gonna happen.

Yes, there will most likely be a few more people interested. But will it be enough to make it worth Stardock's time?

Or would it be better if Stardock continued to concentrate on refining the AI, squishing the odd bugs that have been cropping up, and think about an SP expansion which a big chunk of the original sales base will be more than happy to pick up?
Reply #159 Top
There are definitely those that say that lacking MP is a flaw.

I've been reading LOTS of posts and haven't seen any yet saying that "Lack of MP is a flaw."
My searches haven't found any... place me some links... let's see those.

I NEVER read the reviews of some website like gamespy... I speed read the reviews from other gamers and gather a good overall opinion instead of just one opinion.

people who claim that they only play MP. Similarly I have seen posts from people like me that can't stand MP. I think its becoming a lot more stratified than you may think.

SP is good, but MP opens so many more options of replay value !

extra replay value with MP includes:
AI vs HUMANS(cooperative)
AI vs HUMAN vs HUMAN(there can be only one)
HUMAN vs HUMAN
HUMAN PLAYERS(teams) vs HUMAN PLAYERS(teams)
AI & HUMAN(cooperative) vs HUMAN

THUS I do feel really really bad for those which are just stuck with only HUMAN vs AI .
AND TBS multiplayer allows games to be played over a week or a month.... currently in DOMINIONS_2 I'm doing both SP and MP games. And without a doubt if only SP existed for my games their replay values would be only 10% of what I currently get from them.


Notice the "if there's demand" part. That isn't a probable, that is an if. Its known as a conditional in programming circles. Is there a demand? Well obviously, if even one person asks for it, that is a demand. The better question is whether there is enough demand to warrant devoting the resources to it.

They then said "what we’ll probably do is have an expansion pack that adds multiplayer".


So, before they decide to do it, they have to decide if its worth the resources to do it. If they think it will sell well, then sure, they'll do it. But if they decide that there are a couple hundred rabid pro-MP guys, and they'll buy it, but hardly anyone else will, then I seriously doubt they'll bother (even at $20 x 250, that is only $5000 - not exactly a strong return on their time).

So, before they decide to do it, they have to decide if its worth the resources to do it. If they think it will sell well, then sure, they'll do it. But if they decide that there are a couple hundred rabid pro-MP guys, and they'll buy it, but hardly anyone else will, then I seriously doubt they'll bother (even at $20 x 250, that is only $5000 - not exactly a strong return on their time).


What they said was "The people who want multiplayer can thus buy that feature and those that don’t aren’t forced to have to pay for it."

So most likely any such enhancement will be MP only for those that want it.


CIV_3 went thru the same history... the demand was big enough and the "play the world" expansion arrived. And you show me two games which released a multiplayer expansion which was multiplayer only. FOR HEAVENS SAKE ! Don't expect for a minute these developers will release an expansion with one solo feature being multiplayer. LOL


Computer AI for games has a few more centuries to go before matching the gaming replay value of another human.

They could go the Civ 3 Play the World route. It had some nice SP enhancements. And was a complete dog when it came to MP. But that was a $25 dollar expansion, and I didn't really feel I got my money's worthand I doubt the MP crowd thought so either - and yes I tried it on MP, and it really, REALLY sucked

well the CIV3 expansion was worth it in my book... most of my games were with multiplayer with relatives. Team up against the AIs or Team up against each other... totally worth it in my book. I did mostly LAN games and had no problems even online.... sorry your personal experience sucked.
In fact the developers for CIV_3 had so many purchase and request the multiplayer it was included with the original release of CIV_4.


You honestly think adding MP is going to suddenly draw in the twitch gamers who normally play MP FPS or RTS, or those...

WHO said that... ... WHO.... " NO ONE "... you are wildly jumping into assumptions again.
MULTIPLAYER will bring other space TBS gamers such as MORE fans from MoO2... SpaceEmpires_4.... Alpha Centauri and other ' successful ' games of this type. """ EXTREMELY niche market """ LOL
The game wouldn't be #1 selling software at Walmart and there wouldn't be so many other successful games of this type if it was as Extreme as you daydream / wish.


Here's a quick list of benefits for adding multiplayer as an expansion or download:
1) Increases Galactic_Civ_2 Gaming Community which increases word of mouth which
A) increases sales which increases sequels for the game.
B) increases MODS/Suggestions which can improve options, AI, etc.,
C) larger community means more active forums which means more gamers helping each other
2) Multiplayer will gain its own forum and very very very few multiplayer posts will appear here... unlike now.
3) This greatly increases the games replay value for anyone who's not stuck in a SP only world.
4) Multiplayer taps into the multiplayer gaming community market which means more sales increasing chances for sequels.
Reply #160 Top
Most of the talk now is beating a dead horse.

GCII is SP.
We want some sort of MP expansion that is sold seperatly.

GC will draw others for the posibilities is what has me checking here instead of only doing my SMAC and Civ4 diplo stuff.

Another problem talked about is time.. It depends on what type of MP game you are talking about. Mine are PBEM and takes apx 15 min total a day. LAN Parties and IP can be scheduled. Different people relax and congregate differently. Learn to schedule.

A nice analogy here could be SP understanding MP mentality (and reverse) is like a Man understanding a Woman.

If you go by the trend of GCI then we will see the game then many patches then an expansion.

All I want is one of those patches to add the basic TBS MP stuff. Yes I would want it at no cost but reality says it will cost. If we go by price differece of MP games and SP games we see around $10.

With the smaller base to buy the MP expansion then it may go up but we do not know for shure ulless we can see into the future.

To keep cost down could you focus on it working and not the MP fluff; the TBS stuff talked as wanted.
Reply #161 Top
Gamespy specifically complains if a game lacks MP or the MP isn't what they think it should be


Of they would say that - GameSpy is a hosting service / meeting point (call it what you will) for MP games. They would be expected to review games and pay particular attention to its MP capabilities...


A completely self-centered view for no multiplayer...
no interest in what will increase this games community.
no interest in sharing the game with his wife or relatives... the game is TBS making multiplayer easy where one game can be played throughout the week or month... this isn't RTS !


What and all MP players aren't self-centered but instead altruistic players wanting only the best for humanity?
Rubbish, when I spend my money and time its just that, mine. I work extremely hard in a busy, loud, "people rich" job and have a very limited leisure time to indulge myself. The last thing I want to do with engage with more people (especially strangers who drop in and out of games or never show up) instead I want a bit of "me" time. All players are self-centered in that respect, they want something from the game for themselves.

As for "no interest". More rubbish. I tried for several years to play online MP games, FPS, MMORGS, TBS and RTS (even PBEM) with both relative/friends and as part of a clan (or whatever its called in that game). I found that it was virtually impossible to arrange times with relatives/friends (being approx. same age as me, have the same life/job/work balance issues) for more than a few hours a month. As for the clan(s), I was underwhelmed in every case by the short-termist, juvenile, greedy and materialistic approach 99% of participants took.

I also travel in my job, with SP games I can load up 'em on the laptop and play for a bit in the airport, on the plane or in the evenings in the hotel - not that easy to play MP in any of those circumstances?

TBS as MP? Ha ha, don't make me laugh - I want to play a game, not die of boredom waiting for another player to do something/get back from the bathroom/email me or whatever.

My wife hates computers and has her own hobbies (as well as ones we share) and for that I am grateful.

I've no interest in the MP community anymore. However I am an active particpant in many strategy games forums that are decent for SP players. I just no interest all in MP anymore. Good luck to you if works for you, you can pay for it for separately . For me to spend my money the game has to be right. The price is irrelavent, my leisure time is so precious I'll pay virtually any price to make sure that time is well spent.

So before you launch into a flame for someone else reasons for prefering SP games consider that not every gamer is like you - the gaming community is now huge and quite a diverve maturing market. For every school age teenager wanting the newest console to play FPS'ers on there are 2 gamers over 25 wanting something else.

Reply #162 Top
What and all MP players aren't self-centered but instead altruistic players wanting only the best for humanity?
Rubbish, when I spend my money and time its just that, mine. I work extremely hard in a busy, loud, "people rich" job and have a very limited leisure time to indulge myself. The last thing I want to do with engage with more people (especially strangers who drop in and out of games or never show up) instead I want a bit of "me" time. All players are self-centered in that respect, they want something from the game for themselves.


Have you heard the latest rumors? When Stardock decides to publish a MP extension....the MP gamers will organize and visit you during your leisure time and force you to play MP games.
Reply #163 Top
This is just getting ridiculous. I think the first post pretty much sums it up.
We can't always have our cake and eat it too.
Reply #164 Top
A quick note about review sites. No, you should never take the opinion of just one reviewer, whether it be your buddy (unless you know his tastes match yours EXACTLY) or someone paid to do the job. Which is why I generally read various reviews.

These same reviewers have generally been giving GC2 good reviews. And many of them have complained about a lack of MP as a flaw, costing the game a bit in the final score. Why, is it necessary? The pro MP crowd would say YES! But I think it more likely just the current 'fad'. Everything must be MP, because it must.

Whether everyone will play it or not is irrelevant, it must have it!

So simply dismissing GameSpy's criticism because they host MP games would be nice, but not strictly honest (i.e. claiming they are acting in exclusive self interest). There may be a factor, but I think it has more to do with what is in vogue.

And I've found GameSpy quite useful. I heard about GC2 because of them, so I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss them. In fact I would bet serious money that far more people hear about games from such sites and magazines than because some guy bought a game and tells his friends "I want to play it with you guys!"

Look, does it really matter to me if they release an MP enhancement for this game? On one level, no. I really couldn't give a f***. But on the other hand, it means that Stardock is devoting resources to that, and that may mean that they AREN'T devoting resources to improving the game I play, but to adding something that I'm not interested in.

So naturally my selfish view is that I don't want them to "waste their time" making something that I don't want, when they could be fixing the memory leak in the graphics code, or tweaking the AI, or working on more campaign scenarios, or adding new races, or whatever.

Of course the selfish view of an MP fan is that they would rather Stardock forgot about all that stuff because they want the MP element. Equally understandable.

We're all being selfish. To claim that you want X or Y for 'the good of the game and the gaming community' is a load of total rubbish. Don't try to sell me that garbage, I ain't buying. You just want it so that its more fun for YOU (or I want it so its more fun for ME).

Naturally Stardock understands all that. They want to make a game that is something they want to play too, but they also want to make a game that sells. So far they have done that. In ten days they report more sales than all of the first GC run combined. If they want to devote serious dev time to an expansion, they want to know they'll make their money back on that too.

Personally, I don't think they will with an MP expansion.

Now, I would like to refer people to an interview with Sid Meier and Soren Johnson talking to Gamespy. Here is the URL, http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/694/694349p1.html

They have some interesting comments. the first of relevance here is that MP has to be designed in from the ground up, so even allowing for it in the deign may not be adequate. Second, MP adds about a year, and 2 or 3 programmers, it is not something you can just slap on. Third Sid also commented on single-player games being under served (he said "almost reached the point where single-player games are getting under-served", I think we have reached and passed the point). Fourth he did comment that you can screw up the SP game by going MP, Pirates doesn't have MP because "...we realized it would so damage the single-player experience that it would be a net loss."

Of course he also talked about adding MP to Civ IV and it 'adding to the experience'. Except for what I have seen of the Civ IV MP is a different game, rather than the same but 'better'.

As a final point he mentioned Brad Wardell saying that the budget for GC2 was only $300K. I don't know if they came in on budget or not, but that is a remarkably low budget!

Finally I think TeinoPTer has the right of it. You can't always have everything you want. Accept that this is an SP game, and move on.
Reply #165 Top
Actually I have a second selfish reason for not wanting Stardock to bother with an MP enhancement.

I want it to be clear that there is still a market it for SP games.

If this game has NO element of MP in it at all, and is still successful, then maybe developers will decide that it is still worthwhile to make decent SP games. Whether there is also an MP element in them isn't important to me, but too many games sacrifice SP gameplay for MP, and I want the industry to realize that they are shooting themselves in the foot by doing that. The industry has become so focused on MP, that they are forgetting that there is a healthy - and hungry - SP market that has money as well, and we are willing to spend if the product is decent.

Its even interesting to see that some of the newer MMORPGs are trying to include significant SP content, and that Gamespy actually criticized the new D&D Online for not having any solo content.

Some are starting to realize it, but I think they are the exception.

I want a solidly SP game like this to sell well, and hopefully we'll see more solid SP content out there as a result.
Reply #166 Top

And many of them have complained about a lack of MP as a flaw, costing the game a bit in the final score. Why, is it necessary? The pro MP crowd would say YES! But I think it more likely just the current 'fad'. Everything must be MP, because it must.

Personally it doesn't matter to me the original release didn't have multiplayer... gives time for patching bugs and adding features. But I definitely pray Multiplayer gets added as an expansion... otherwise it's replay value is seriously hurt for my gaming experience. Currently I plan to buy the game as soon as multiplayer becomes available.
Since a funky Hotseat already exists it shouldn't be difficult to provide LAN, Hotseat and PBEM.... online is where stuff gets more complex with firewalls, ISPs, connection speeds, etc. .


Look, does it really matter to me if they release an MP enhancement for this game? On one level, no. I really couldn't give a f***. But on the other hand, it means that Stardock is devoting resources to that, and that may mean that they AREN'T devoting resources to improving the game I play, but to adding something that I'm not interested in.

Of course Stardock will have to devote resources and time for multiplayer, but the overall long term is better on many levels for everyone. Multiplayer will increases Galactic_Civ_2 Gaming Community which increases word of mouth for increasing sales which increases sequels. Based on the size of multiplayer forums for other TBS games this is a significant amount of people. Personally I do both SP and MP games all the time... SP always fades away first because no current AI can compare to a human opponent / ally.


Finally I think TeinoPTer has the right of it. You can't always have everything you want. Accept that this is an SP game, and move on.

I disagree, sticking with only SP limits the total amount of income possible for the game. It's fine for the game to start as SP only... but for the long term the company should tap into the sales from MP gamers. Working with billion dallor companies every day I know these companies are focused with acquiring as much of the pie as possible. The more pie acquired the more sequels we will see.


I want it to be clear that there is still a market it for SP games.

Yes games should be made providing good SP gaming... if the game is made with only MP focused usually features, content and other parts of the game make the MP shallow. On the same note any successful game should always look towards providing more replay value and bringing in more money.... multiplayer will provide this. And multiplayer can be just one of a dozen new features within an expansion.
example of a expansion features:
Map Editor ---- gamers can create worlds for others to play and can setup events
Larger Map size(s)
Space Heroes for ships & planets
Multiplayer --- one or more of the following: HotSeat, PBEM, LAN, Online
More unique technologies
Reply #167 Top
You ask why have MP.

Look at how society works.

In short people like to play other people some time and by themselves some of the time.

Human interaction is the key. Interacting with machines is relaxing at times but the human psyche thrives on human contact. Just look at history and how long do you want the game to last.

Another coment is always talking about MP.

I see two basic types of MP for this game. The Full MP that will mess it up and the Limited MP which deals only with TBS as posted in previous postes.

On your second reason I see no problem with. So both the SP and TBSMP crowd are happy the making of a SP game with MP openings is a good starter and then add a patch for the TBS MP stuff after.
Reply #168 Top
I my self dont really mind havin no mutiplayer. But they could at least added a mutiplayer for 2 people on one comp. It is a turn based game. But so far iam also lovin this game.
Reply #169 Top
Looks like my last message about missing multiplayer got sensored (contained only constructive things).

To make it all short, Galciv2 is a good game as SP game. Hovewer its year 2006 and in these days
the biggest winners are onlinegames. This game is like: "Buy a cheap car without engine! We will deliver
engine later for added money since it is so expensive and time consuming to build."

Offcourse its a good way to earn a lot of money while selling a game in parts. A main game for 45$,
multiplayer addon 30$, then numerous gold editions with couple more feature another 20$. Sure
everyone can and may do that, its totally another story how long it can happen before customers
reacts in it


Reply #170 Top
I think Brad pre-empted the crux of the matter

But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.


The pro-MP few make a lot of noise!

I like playing MP. I like playing SP. However, the arguments FOR having MP stated so far are really weak if vociferously expressed..... it's not a car without an engine..... it's a sports car with no room in the back for passengers!
Reply #171 Top
I have to say, I did enjoy playing a hotseat game in Moo2. Another multiplayer mode I've enjoyed for turn-based games is Email play. Each person can play at their leisure and get the most out of each turn without driving the other person up the wall waiting. A combination of other multi-player options, and being able to switch over to an email game is also a nice feature I've seen done before.
Reply #172 Top
To make it all short, Galciv2 is a good game as SP game. Hovewer its year 2006 and in these days the biggest winners are onlinegames. This game is like: "Buy a cheap car without engine! We will deliver engine later for added money since it is so expensive and time consuming to build."


It depends on how you want to look at it.

Someone who only plays SP would consider GC2 an "inexpensive but stylish car with full features and a hookup for a extra trailer if you want it".

However, that same SP-only person would consider the tons of games with strong MP but weak SP to be a "car that looks nice, but the engine only has enough juice to go at 1 MPH and run half the features unless you call over six of your friends to help push and turn the engine crank".

The same could be said for you considering that the game is "being sold in parts". From my perspective, GC2 is already a "whole game". I can load it up and play it without needing anything "extra", like finding other humans to play with. For me MP would be nothing more than a nice add-on that I probably won't bother with.

So, IMHO, it is a matter of perspective, and I think the choice to not initially include MP in GalCiv 2 is no more a flaw than the fact that Everquest doesn't have an SP component.

Peace & Luv, Liz
Reply #173 Top
Well, I think Brads Arguments are realy strong and Stardocks decision agains Multiplayer was right. It's better to create an awesome TBS without Multiplayer than a good one with it.
Reply #174 Top


PBEM and other non-real time options are a lot more doable and wouldn't compromise the game. Multiplayer isn't particularly hard to do, but for head to head, real time play, GalCiv II wouldn't be very fun IMO. But if ther'es demand, we can do it.                                            
Greetings:


I was pleased to read Frogboy’s response to my original post, as I was to discover that this game’s developers are both willing and able to easily add a PBEM and “other” multiplayer options to the game. Conceivably, one of them will be LAN based cooperative and head to head play. This being so, I will be completely satisfied, as will be at least a dozen friends of mine who are then going to acquire this product.
As to the option to make the game Real Time, well, I believe that if anyone wishes to play RTS games, there is a plethora of ready-made titles that offer this option which, in my opinion, would decidedly have to be implemented from the start in a new title. Witness SWG’s current lamentable state, as SOE bumbles through the jungle that instantly springs when trying to move from turn-based to RT. Also, while perusing the forums, I have yet to see a single request for RT. I hope I am not mistaken.
This game has been hailed by many as “Master Of Orion's spiritual successor”. From the tutorials and the many reviews I have seen, it certainly seems to be exactly that. What else can we ask for? Only multiplayer. Since Frogboy has been kind enough to indicate the viability of such implementation, I am sure that both my friends and I will be playing this gem soon.
Two more things merit mentioning:


1-I praise your customer support personnel. When we bought our two copies of this game, we were provided with only one serial number. I called the Stardock offices the next day and was answered very politely. Not five minutes after I had hung up, I received the second serial number by E-Mail.


2- I could not help but notice some of the comments from other customers, and potential customers, on the forums. It surprises me to find such a heated debate over so small an issue. The game was programmed with multiplayer in mind. This was not adopted from the start to devote limited resources to perfecting the base code. The game is now out and being sold, doing well from what I hear. What do SP-only gamers care whether or not a multiplayer option gets implemented or not? The game has not been out for more than... a month or so? I doubt that in that time, the necessarily limited AI options will have soured for them. With multiplayer options in place, a larger customer base will be obtained and with it, more resources and demand for new expansions and the like.


If the game had had a label stating it was “SINGLE PLAYER ONLY” across the cover or similar, many would not have bought it. The reverse is not true: Had a “SUPPORTS MULTIPLAYER” label been present, no SP-Only gamer would have turned it down.


I readily grant that there may be exceptions to this statement, but their scarcity needs-must preclude them from affecting the overall veracity of it.


I will be standing by for news on the implementation of multiplayer options and looking forward to them. Many thanks to Frogboy and the design team for their prompt and enthusiastic reply to this request.


On a closing note, it is refreshing to see comments like those posted by NTJedi, moo2niac and nullinstance. Regardless of whether I agree with all of them on every one of their points or not, it is clear that they respect the community to a sufficient degree,  to properly structure their posts' content, grammar and orthography.


Thank you for the time taken in reading this message.

Reply #175 Top
As a recent purchaser, I have to say this:

I purchased because you didn't put in CD media based copy protection... instead opting for an intuitive value based copy protection to get people to order, i.e. additional content.

That said, I struggled with the idea of it, despite having plenty of money for the purchase and really no desire for another game right now, because it did not have a mulitplayer component. And, at $50 shipped, it costs as much as any game for the PC I've bought retail, so there's no savings to me in cutting out multiplayer.

I own Civ4, and play it quite a bit. Never by myself. I have no longer see value in playing alone when I can play with others.

All of the items you list as things you couldn't do in muliplayer could have been done, especially if the AI treats players and other AI players the same. Other 4x games have all sorts of complex events, some of them unbalancing, but still Random. In Civ4, when you get a settler or worker at the very beginning from a village, it's very unbalancing.

That said, I agree with you that it isn't necessarily the only way. I do own games I play only by myself. It's just that they never get played.

Xcom, for example, had no multiplayer component and is IMO one of the best games ever made. That said, I wouldn't play it now without a multiplayer component.

I completely understand your desire to put it into an expansion pack, though Civ3 doing this kept me from ever buying it. I do hope that you implement multiplayer, and that it comes at a reasonable price.

But, you earned my $50 by giving Starforce the middle finger, not by making a game lacking a feature I consider necessary. If you want a repeat customer from ME, you're going to have to implement some of the things *I* want.

And an online scoreboard is not mulitplayer. I want to play with my friends (which incidentally would give you additional purchases), not with random people on the internet whom I will never meet and don't care about.

Thank you for what I hope will be a good single player game, and please let me know when you implement multiplayer.