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Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Not all strategy games benefit from multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer. 

The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making.  Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world.  The Corporate Machine had multiplayer.  The Political Machine had multiplayer.

In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games.  Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity.  I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.

From this, I've concluded two things:

1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.

2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.

To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature.  Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.

But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth).  But the gameplay was not.  We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.

I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.

#1 It sacrifices single player features.  Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer.  What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.

But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies.  The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer.  That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.

My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games.  But what was sacrificed in exchange?  There's no campaign.  There's no in-depth scenarios.  No in-depth random events.  You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what.  Do you think this is a coincidence?  No random civil wars based on certain criteria?  No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while?  I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.

When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it.  We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal.  Same thing.

So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign.   I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape.  But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design?  And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.

Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience.  There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations.  Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on.  In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?

Similarly, there's diplomacy.  Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer.  The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations.  That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.

#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with.  And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).

Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50.  That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference.  Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99.  Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.

If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion.  Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it.  And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.

Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing.  We even have a multiplayer design.  But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.

#3 It would have changed the design priorities.

When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface.  So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.

Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it.  Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one.  The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships.  The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over.  Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).

But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently.  Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are.  Efficient is great in a multiplayer game.  But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.

And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:

The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:

And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?

In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.

It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance.  But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure.  And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.

But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind.  And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience. 

I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player.  The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer. 

And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't.  In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).

For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game. 

We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games.  But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game. 

 

3,178,725 views 616 replies | Pinned
Reply #101 Top
There isnt a single feature in Galactic Civilizations 2 that I would trade for multiplayer. It just isnt worth it in my opinion.

Awesome job guys! Best video game within the last year, hands down.
Reply #102 Top

Hi Everyone. I agree with the post suggesting a poll to see how many would be interested in buying an expansion that would only add multiplayer options. I for one would definitely pay my $10.00 just to get the MP options, I think this game is probably THE best incarnation of a great video game genre, and I was totally dissapointed after buying it to see there was no multiplay included. I have a group of LAN friends (7) that were all eager for us to incorporate this game in our sessions, but obviously were all dissapointed when I told them the bad news. I think the game is trully one of THE great ones, and if it's really the case that some features would have gotten the axe if that money would have been invested in developing multiplay I say GOOD!!! The time has come for you Developing guys to do "the business within the business". Get the multiplay expansion out and I'm sure you'll receive a nice ammount of revenue for it. After all, I dont see the point in discussing if it's a good or a bad idea having it in the game, let's all remember IT'S AN OPTION, so whoever wants to go solo be my guest, for all of us who want to share the GalCivII gaming experience the chance will be there...and so will our hard earned bucks, awaiting for that chance.       

Reply #103 Top
@ #86 by Citizen Taran Wanderer

„Don't get me wrong - MOO2 is one of my favorite games of all time - I played the heck out of it single-player. But it was a darn shame the multiplayer code was so unstable. If they had fixed that, I'd probably still be playing that game with friends even today.“

You have prolly tried the win version (orion95.exe) which is pretty unstable and lags like hell. Moo2 was developed for Dos and they just made it compatible with win95. You should therefore try the dos version (orion2.exe). There is even a new 1.4 patch for the dos version and MP runs stable on XP.

Game Setup Info
1.4 patch
Reply #104 Top
>
FrogBoy said:
"Standard with other games". Those other gaems also cost $10 more. You're simply paying for the feature whether you want it or not.


I never know where this comes from. I bought the game direct from Stardock - it cost me £26 (conversion rates). This is the most expensive PC game I have bought for years. Generally games I purchase are between £17.99 to max £25 and they all have MP except GCII so this argument falls flat for me
Reply #105 Top
This is precisely why I think most TBS games are better off being entirely single player. The time component necessitates that if multiplayer is part of the game, any features that increase the time involved in each turn have to be minimized. My biggest complaint about RTS games in general is that for the most part, they aren't really strategy games. Once you figure out the "optimal build order" it's just a click fest.


Turn based games are perfect for slow burning MP - Civ IV is a good example of what can be achieved if it is done right. I am currently playing 3 Civ IV games.

1. Pbem started in October - 5 users we are at around 800AD and things are starting to get fun
2. pitboss started mid january - 5 users - now in 1400AD mix and match between pbem style and internet get togethers. Favourite game so far and maybe one of my favourite sessions of all time. 3 of us ganged up on the leader and got our backsides firmly handed back on a plate - we're now running for the hills and hoping we can sdalavage sometime
3. Pitboss started Mid January - 18 users - really great game and good demonstration of how an MP Turn based game works well, forced turns every 12 hours keeps the game flowing.

If GCII implemented a pitboss option - that is all I think they would need then I believe it could work incredibly well and will give this game legs beyond what most players can handle on an SP.

Like others I have no probs paying extra for this - in fact for me the cut off is around 20$ additional - but maybe a poll should be created:

I would like MP in game and would be prepared to pay 0
<5
<10
<15
<20
No I don't want MP in game.

And go from there.

That said the metaverse is not bad at all and that does provide some fun and competition and the game is frankly awesome so I am not unhappy with the purchase - far from it, just want to be playing it in the next few years. Like I did with Stars!, Dominions 2 and am playing with Civ IV Brad make this game live.

Tals
Reply #106 Top
GalCiv 2 ,well I had a Galciv2 dream last night.I mean I havent dream about a game in along time.Galciv 2 is great.I play alot of online games,nothing has inspired me like GalCiv 2.I love this game.
Reply #107 Top
I don't know. I wouldn't really use the multiplayer feature that much. Eventually, sooner or later people will stop playing this game and move on to other games. One game that has had the most playability for me has been Alpha Centauri; no multiplayer in that I believe. But god, I could play that game for hours and hours and hours upon end.

I'd rather have more races, more stories, more situations, more features, more doodads. But I guess a lot of people really like playing multiplayer with other people. Dunno about you guys, but I take FOREVER on each turn. Everything has to be perfect. I can't imagine the other guy on end waiting for about 15 minutes before I finish my turn.

I dunno, just make more stuff guys. Y'knw. Stuff.
Reply #108 Top
SMAC and SMAX do multi. That is why I am a PBEM freek now. I love the stratagizing.

Turn time just depends on how far ahead your stratagy is setup.

I have seen turn time ranging from 3/day all the way to 1/mo.
Reply #109 Top
Some ideas how multiplayer could (maybe) easily be added can be found here:

https://forums.galciv2.com/?ForumID=162&AID=104501
Reply #110 Top
hey,

Well I've been playing the game a lot now and can only conclude that this game is what MOO3 had supposed to be and those developers really messed up. The game plays very nice and hard in single player but sorry it should have MP to. It would be so great to take on my friends with this and build our galactic empires. Anyhow experience thought me that asking for a feature doesn't always gives you it so atm I'm happy with what I've got ... but if you really build it so that MP can be included ... try putting it in to then over time

my 2 cents

Reply #111 Top
Again, I dont think any substantial changes need to be made to the game for multiplayer. PBEM can work virtually unchanged from the single player, for regular multiplayer you just need to add an adjustable turn timer in case someone is taking too long. If you can work a deal out to include ventrillo or teamspeak (or some kind of in-game voice chat) then the live turn-based games tend to solve the turn-time problems automatically (you're gonna get yelled at and you'll have to explain yourself).
Reply #112 Top
The way to get around the turn timmer thing is to have a neutral person hold all the login info for each person.

This way when someone takes to long or disapears then you advertise on a forum and the pass is email to the replacement. The game goes on.

You also do not need to put in an auto emiler like Civ does
Reply #113 Top
PBEM and other non-real time options are a lot more doable and wouldn't compromise the game. Multiplayer isn't particularly hard to do, but for head to head, real time play, GalCiv II wouldn't be very fun IMO. But if ther'es demand, we can do it.


My opinion is this. For the many reason that Brad has already stated, the RTS and multiplayer ability removes a lot of depth from a game like GalCiv2. Every MP/RTS type of game I have ever bought ultimately ends up stinking at single-player. For me single-player is the thing. I can boot up and play whenever I want and for as long or short as I want. I am not dependent upon others to be a part of my fun.
The only exception I have is with FPS, those are certainly more fun in a MP environment. But then again, those are not the type of games that require you to stay with a group of people and play for hours on end. I can jump on, kill or be killed, then jump off when I want. With any type of strategy MP game you get locked in. At my current stage in life (40's, 4 kids, etc) I just do not have the consecutive hours in a day it would require to play MP online.
If the AI on GalCiv2 was not any good I could see people needing MP. I for one would most likely have just passed on buying GalCiv2 because I do not like the MP environment of strategy games.
Lastly, PBEM. Yeah, okay I could see that working with GalCiv2. If Brad and them can add it without detracting from the single player aspect at all then great. Will I use it? I might trying it. I used to place Space Empires IV quite a bit. The single player aspect of it left something to be desired because the AI just did not stand up very well. I did play it many times via PBEM and did enjoy them somewhat. My issues with it was the calendar time it took to complete a game. The only way to eliminate that was a web based PBEM management system that someone had developed that allowed you to enforce a specified time limit for turns.

Anyway, I have been very happy with GalCiv, GalCiv:AP and now GalCiv2. Very fun, excellent AI and really cool features. Brad, if you end up feeling like you need to add MP then I would ask that it not impact the single player experience. Please, please please.

Excellent game!

Thanks
Reply #114 Top
As long as Stardock only updates to add PBEM or other TBS MP stuff and no RTS stuff GalCiv should not be changed.
Reply #115 Top
A lot of it boils down to how much fun (in hours) you get for your money really.


Frogboy... based on that statement I will guarantee many gamers will have increased gameplay hours and overall value if multiplayer is added. The exception is the percentage of gamers which do only single player and most of these players are purely focused on sucking you develoeprs dry for extra singleplayer content instead of looking at the overall picture of what would bring in the most money for your game.

Adding multiplayer without a doubt will increase the size of this games community... the larger your gaming community the more 'word of mouth' is spread about your game. The more 'word of mouth' the more game sales which will arrive.

I'm adding my vote that this game should have at least HotSeat and LAN for multiplayer.
Reply #116 Top
Any multiplayer system we do would likely make use of the existing Metaverse architecture.  It would act as a "neutral" agent to keep games so that you could come and go from them.
Reply #117 Top
for regular multiplayer you just need to add an adjustable turn timer in case someone is taking too long. If you can work a deal out to include ventrillo or teamspeak (or some kind of in-game voice chat) then the live turn-based games tend to solve the turn-time problems automatically (you're gonna get yelled at and you'll have to explain yourself).

Well, I think it would be nice if ship design could beavailable when waiting for other people. After all, there are 2 important time eater in GC2: the length of one turn for a person and the use of the ship design
Reply #118 Top
Well, I think it would be nice if ship design could beavailable when waiting for other people. After all, there are 2 important time eater in GC2: the length of one turn for a person and the use of the ship design


Yes thats the same way I thought

The best would be to disable the ship designer during your turn and only allow it when you wait for other players
Reply #119 Top
I support Multiplayer for Gal Civ 2 for the same reasons I support multiplayer in any other game - playing with my friends. Sure, I could go browse a server and start a game with a bunch of people I've never met, but that's not really suited to a TBS game. It's a very time-consuming investment, but it's worth it. Despite GalCiv 2's great AI, it never really can outdo another player, especially one who knows you personally and can predict how you'll plan and react. The diplomacy, too, is changed fundamentally when playing with human players. Yes, it would become unbalanced, but that's the point. It pits one player against the other. Obviously, these negates the functionality of the diplomacy technologies, which is where the additional multiplayer programming would come in. Some kind of multiplayer-only diplomacy benchmark tool could be added for interactions between human players, I suppose.

I don't see how the addition of a multiplayer feature could worsen a game. Granted, I'm going to be spending most of my time playing single-player, like everyone else, but I'd like the option to play with my friends. Hot Seat is a good idea, but may not viable in a game like this, where it's important to discover what technologies and weapons your opponent is using - someone hanging around your shoulder could easily ruin your plans. I'd be hoping for Direct IP functionality if the game were to have a multiplayer release.

Also, the customisable ship system does bring a few problems to the table, since it's so time-consuming for the most part, but this could be corrected by allowing the player to design his ships beforehand; it would be the same as using an older ship design from before, particularly if the player is concerned with aesthetic, since the functionality of the ships' s weapons, modules and engines are unaffected by their placement. The little reminder that Baldur's Gate 2 comes to mind - "Make sure to generate your character beforehand in order to save time". Besides, sometimes, I don't feel like playing a campaign; I'd rather play around with the ships.

Frogboy, I understand your point. A multiplayer Gal Civ II would be different, but I don't think it would be bad. Why would the random events need to be turned off for multiplayer?
Reply #120 Top
Yes a poll about "would you buy an expansion allowing Multiplayer?" would be great!!
Reply #121 Top
Frogboy, I understand your point. A multiplayer Gal Civ II would be different, but I don't think it would be bad. Why would the random events need to be turned off for multiplayer?


You really must not have played very many multiplayer games online have you? Picture this:

Player A has discovered a Precursor Ranger!
Player B has disconnected
Player C has disconnected
Player D has disconnected

Its great that you have a bunch of friends to play with who probably wouldn't do this, but 99% of us can't wrangle up 3 or 4 other friends to sit down for 2-4 hours to play a game on a regular basis. That means we'd have to deal with random people off the internet. Regardless of whether its a RTS/TBS/MMORPG you still have to deal with a lot people who will just say screw it and leave when anything goes wrong.

I've owned just about every major RTS/TBS out since Civ I and Comand & Conquer, of those, I have played maybe 2 or 3 of those online, and of those 2-3 titles, less than 10% of the games were multiplayer online just cause of the above reasons. Nevermind the fact that as soon as you implement MP, cheating becomes another source of frustration for the developes because all of the people playing MP will whine incessantly about the cheating and ask what is Stardock doing about it.

Lastly, people need to stop referencing how great Starcraft is, how old it is yet how popular it still is, how it has multiplayer, etc. Starcraft is the exception to the rule, especially considering it was built from the ground up to be mostly MP. Nobody plays SP Starcraft anymore, they've all moved on to next-gen RTS's. I still hear about lots and lots of people who play SP Civ2, SMAC, MoO2.
Reply #122 Top
If you were playing a 1 on 1 with another person, how would diplomacy work? (excluding the minor races)
Reply #123 Top
First of all, I like galciv2 overall.

However, few things comes in my mind.

1. Registration validation mail to me was very hard to read. Black backround picture with black fonts
does not make it too easy. (using IE6)

2. We are living in 2006 where most successful games ARE multiplayer games. There is no excuses today,
why it is not included. If it comes later with money requirement, I think its the same than selling a car without engine.
"Buy a cheap and good car, we will deliver engine late for 4000$"

3. Yes, there is so called campaign which were one of excuses why multiplayer game was leaved out. I started it out and finded myself up in a situation where I started "training mission" with one star and a strong ally who can handle the entire scenario alone. Then next "campaign mission" were a bit larger scenario with the same enemy and I had to START ALL OVER AGAIN with brand new units, no experienced units from last scenario, no benefits from last scenario. Thats it, I didin't continue.

4. This is a good game for three or four days, but thats it. Lifespan is very very short without multiplayer game. Not worth buying. Not with that amount of money they are asking. Might be more fair to say: "we are selling single player good game for 20$. We will introduce the rest of the game later for 25$"

5. "But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive." Sure it might be so, but it will also be very costly to develop and sell a game with short lifespan. Sometimes it might be more important to make a good game without one thing in my mind "how many doo$ooll$laaa$$aarssss we will make with this!!!". You can do this thing only once, then customers knows what kind of stuff comes out from that team.

6. Ship design is a very good idea, thats what I love most in this game. Also AI is doing better than average job,
hope it does not cheat!


Reply #124 Top
Unlike you I do apx 70% of my playing in PBEMs.

Different strokes for different folks.
Reply #125 Top
Unlike you I do apx 70% of my playing in PBEMs.


And once again, you are in the very, very, very small (but vocal) minority.