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Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Not all strategy games benefit from multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer. 

The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making.  Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world.  The Corporate Machine had multiplayer.  The Political Machine had multiplayer.

In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games.  Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity.  I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.

From this, I've concluded two things:

1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.

2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.

To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature.  Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.

But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth).  But the gameplay was not.  We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.

I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.

#1 It sacrifices single player features.  Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer.  What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.

But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies.  The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer.  That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.

My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games.  But what was sacrificed in exchange?  There's no campaign.  There's no in-depth scenarios.  No in-depth random events.  You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what.  Do you think this is a coincidence?  No random civil wars based on certain criteria?  No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while?  I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.

When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it.  We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal.  Same thing.

So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign.   I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape.  But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design?  And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.

Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience.  There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations.  Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on.  In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?

Similarly, there's diplomacy.  Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer.  The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations.  That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.

#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with.  And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).

Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50.  That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference.  Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99.  Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.

If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion.  Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it.  And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.

Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing.  We even have a multiplayer design.  But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.

#3 It would have changed the design priorities.

When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface.  So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.

Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it.  Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one.  The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships.  The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over.  Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).

But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently.  Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are.  Efficient is great in a multiplayer game.  But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.

And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:

The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:

And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?

In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.

It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance.  But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure.  And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.

But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind.  And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience. 

I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player.  The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer. 

And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't.  In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).

For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game. 

We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games.  But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game. 

 

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Reply #76 Top
I agree with stardock on this. It is better to make a great single player game, than an average single and multiplayer game. If you drop mulitplayer, you can add more content. The game can be more storydriven and you can make the game more complex.

I know of good multiplayer games and good singleplayer games. I can't remember any games that are both. Can someone name me one game that's very good at both mp and sp?
Reply #77 Top
but but..... Brad said he could easily implement MP if the demand called for it - so I still would like to see focus on an MP expansion rather than various tweaks that may now be implemented.

I forgot to say - amongst my group of about 6 game players that I play with i've not even mentioned this game - why bother its not MP so we're never going to play it together. If it had been MP i'd have been pushing them to get it.

I suspect i'm not alone.

Tals
Reply #78 Top
One game - sheesh you make it to easy. Civ IV. Want another Soldiers HOWWII tbh you could keep going on.

Both of those games are excellent in SP but MP gave them legs and a way better experience.

Tals

Reply #79 Top
I believe Brad has posted in another thread how to do a sort of "hot-seat" game.
Reply #80 Top
If you or anyone finds it can they post a link here (i've had a look and can't see it) - this would interest me even as a interim step if it allowed a form of MP game - unless it required th eperson to be physically on my machine - if that was the case that would be no use/interest.

Tals
Reply #81 Top
"#5 You can play a quasi-Hot seat game with someone by loading up the game as GalCiv2 cheat (use the cheat parameter). Then when you set up the game, you let the AI play out a few turns and then have your friend pick one of the races they want to control. Have them select that unit and hit CTRL-SHIFT-Z."

I tried that, but couldn't figure out what it means\how to do it. And no-one else seems to know (or feel like answering my "how to"-questions).

How about implementing a proper hotseat-function into the game? Doesn't mean there have to be anything done about balance etc, just an option to control 2 (or more) of the factions instead of just 1. Some diplomacy-interface work may have to be done, I don't know. Would make a good few people happy.

Or, if someone could give a *proper* explanation on how to set up a hotseat game via the cheatfunction, step by step, that'd be nice.
Reply #82 Top
Certainly does sound like they could implement a very simple pbem system (even if it meant manually sending the relevant files) which would be very nice

Tals
Reply #83 Top
I agree with the people who say that with these types of games, you play until you figure out how to exploit the weak/stupid AI and then the game is no longer as much fun. Nevertheless, we buy and play them anyway because it's a lot of fun before you get to the point where it's no longer any fun.

Unfortunately, I just don't see MP working well on a game with long turns and where it that takes many hours to complete game. I good MP game needs to be designed MP from the ground up.
Reply #84 Top
If they put in PBEM then I would get it and work on getting ppl at Apolyton to join in.

Just like there is an Alpha Centauri (AC) group.
Reply #85 Top
Stardock: Please add PBEM. I do not know what would be technically involved in doing this, but I imagine it would be among the easiest MP options to add. I think PBEM would fit a game like GC perfectly (I own GC1, and am planning to by GC2). I have a gaming group that is addicted to Dominions 2, and we would LOVE to add GC2 to our list of games. PBEM allows for that slowly developing "board game" feel that some of us strategy gamers love. Also, I don't think you would have to eliminate all of the random events, etc... as you mentioned in your case against MP. Dominions 2 has seemingly managed to keep random events intact, creating and exciting and dynamic PBEM experience.

I will be looking for a GC2 PBEM expansion, and I can guarantee you 5 copies sold if you make it.
Reply #86 Top
I'm going to chime in my support for a multiplayer expansion. I think it's safe to say that this forum is probably biased towards single player simply because GC2 is the sequel to a single-player game.

A campaign is nice, but many people who play strategy games aren't going to bother with the campaign more than once. In fact, some feel the single player campaign/game is training for the real deal - multiplayer games with human opponents. As others have pointed out, no matter how good the AI is, it's not going to be on the level of good human opponents. Don't get me wrong - MOO2 is one of my favorite games of all time - I played the heck out of it single-player. But it was a darn shame the multiplayer code was so unstable. If they had fixed that, I'd probably still be playing that game with friends even today.

I'll probably pick up GC2 some time this week. I can almost guarantee 3 more sales if a multiplayer component is released in the future. Several of my friends have said, "The game looks cool, but there's no multiplayer." I understand the developer's logic, but I truly believe that the impact of multiplayer on sales has been underestimated.
Reply #87 Top
I fully understand the depth of development resources it takes to add multiplayer, and I appreciate the clear and visible effort that has gone into making GalCiv2 such an immersive single player experience.

Still, I would love to be able to play the game with my friends. I play Civilization IV almost exclusively with my friends in co-op. As life seems to get busier as with all when we grow up, I have less time to spend with my friends and less time to play games, so whenever I can I combine these two to a social experience.

Before Civ IV made it's apperance we even went back to Master Of Orion II multiple times. GalCiv2 has such an amazing AI that would really breathe new life to our 4X strategy game co-op experiences.

So, you'll have my ten to fifteen bucks in exchange for a multiplayer.
Reply #88 Top
LAN multiplayer and PBEM need to be added. I seldom play any SIngle Player games, and actively DISLIKE single player experiances in games.

This game screams for Multiplayer - implemented in a good way - at the very least, Lan and PBEM play.
Reply #89 Top
(My apologies if this turns out to be a duplicate post...my first attempt didn't seem to make it)

Add me to the list of people who would love a multiplayer expansion.

I'm not adding anything new to the conversation by stating that I'm a MOO2 fan, and would love to have the one thing from that game that is currently missing from GalCiv II, it's spiritual successor. MOO2 was one of the few multiplayer games my wife & I ever played together, and I'm sure she'd jump at the chance to school me again. While random matchups with other players may not be a satisfying experience in any multiplayer game, when you have a chance to play with friends and family it can be a real hoot.

I understand Stardock's rationale behind focusing on the AI instead of multiplayer, and now after playing a few (non-Metaverse) games I can appreciate that decision. Hopefully now that the game is selling like hotcakes the prospect of a multiplayer expansion -- along with other, single-player focused expansions -- can be more likely.
Reply #90 Top
I've heard on many occasions how Multiplayer supposily adds "life" to a game..
If the game has a good AI and has random starting locations etc,, why do people assume just by playing another human player that it will be more of a challenge ? I know some real bad players and even those veteran strategy players I know eventually form one particular strategy and then executes it over and over and over again.."boring"
By not focusing on MP,,I hope the gaming industry can learn to produce a better AI,, inject more random events,, give the AI players personality,, include atmosphere ,, focus on Campaigns and scenarios..Are you telling me you rather lose all of that just so you can play some unknow Mr. Bob (who's probably really 10 yrs old ) from across the country with his lousy internet connection. ?
Reply #91 Top
You dont have to play with everyone, just who you want to.

AIs can try to be irrational players with randomness but the AIs can still be figured out by some. Instead of not playing that person anymore you choose to not play the game anymore or live with knowing what it will probably do.

Last it seems we do not play Mr. Bob but friends, family and ppl we know on the net.
Reply #92 Top
I see where you're coming from, but I think far too many people put too much emphasis on multiplayer "balance." I generally play "cooperative" campaigns in games like CivIV, Diplomacy, Crusader Kings, etc - that is, me and one or two buddies versus the AI (usually with the difficulty jacked up). So long as we're using Teamspeak or Ventrilo, we're all perfectly happy to take our time and just enjoy the experience. Crusader Kings especially - it's VERY heavily event-driven and to my knowledge, it's exactly the same multiplayer as singleplayer and it's a blast to play either way.

Ie- Multiplayer dosn't need to be a "balanced" competition-friendly experience - especially if the game automatically groups players into teams by default. Just my $0.02.
Reply #93 Top

jujumbura wrote:

That is absoutely true. What is entertaining for the first 20 hours of gameplay will quickly lose its novelty. This is why most RTS, which have really pretty simple mechanics and rule systems when you boil down to it, DEPEND on multiplayer to have any reasonable amount of lifetime. If you look at the trend, RTS gaming is becoming more and more streamlined every year... fewer units on the map, fewer buildings and technologies, less importance and malability of terrain... ( there are a few exceptions, but the big successes are VERY streamlined these days ). It all boils down to a very fast-paced, intense and hopefully balanced multiplayer experience, where the depth of the game is really more about the depth of human adaptability. Achieving that takes major resources.


This is precisely why I think most TBS games are better off being entirely single player. The time component necessitates that if multiplayer is part of the game, any features that increase the time involved in each turn have to be minimized. My biggest complaint about RTS games in general is that for the most part, they aren't really strategy games. Once you figure out the "optimal build order" it's just a click fest.

In my opinion the entire appeal to TBS games is their depth. I like spending inordinate amounts of time customizing units, deciding on what techs to research, fine tuning production, etc. I don't want to feel pressured to click "end turn" as soon as possible so whoever I'm playing against doesn't get bored and quit. The problem is that multiplayer encourages you to rip out anything that increases the length of time it takes to complete a turn.

Don't get me wrong, I like multiplayer games as much as the next person. In fact I shudder to think how many hours I wasted playing Everquest. I just think most games that try to focus on both single and multiplayer wind up making sacrifices that detract from both experiences. Multiplayer encourages streamlining and the elimination of as many nonessential features as possible to increase the pace of the action. Single player games encourage features that are either irrelevant in multiplayer (like a storyline) or increase the time spent by players and/or the CPU to perform their tasks, whether they be turn based or real time.

For the most games I think you'd be better off to decide to focus on either single or multiplayer and if the game turns out to be a big hit and there's a high demand for the other option then release either a second game or an expansion that focuses on that. So in short, I think GalCiv II got it exactly right in that respect. I wish more game companies did things that way.

Quake is a good example of a game that took the other extreme and I while I didn't have any real interest in playing it, I think it's probably a better multiplayer game because of the fact that the single player aspect was ignored. By the same token for a game like Elder Scrolls, I think it would be a complete waste of time for Bethesda to even attempt to add multiplayer to it. It's better to just decide that they want a single player RPG and that's what they're going to make.
Reply #94 Top
Multiplayer adds a new twist to any game. Many games ive bought that didnt have multiplayer ended up in a box after i got bored with them (including GC1 im afraid).

Having multiplayer is a good idea, there is nothing better than 2+ humans going at it. Human versus human beats AI any time. Half the time i buy turn based strategy game its so easy even on the hardest setting. I enjoy a good game with a fellow gamer once in awhile.

Some people say there will be bad appels and it will ruin the experience. I say then you do not have much faith in your fellow gamers, hard core fans, and people that have been playing since day one. There are always bad appels in every bunch, but i can honestly say ive had tons of good experience over the few bad ones.

Some people say it will ruin single player. How is that even possible? You always have the option to play either. You arent forced into one or the other.

Some say no one will even play multiplayers. I can tell you now that isnt even close to reality. I bet half if not more people will play online even the ones not wanting it.

1) civilization was pretty fun to play online ive been doing it since civ2 came out. You got the option to play turn based or sim. That sped the game up a lot. In GC2 that can happen as well. There isnt many things that take a long time to complete. The game should fly by pretty fast. I think ship design will take longest of anything? We could always design our ships ahead of time. Say custom race and have a few ships designed where we can just change weapons, engines, etc around a little. While game is still running so people dont waste time. GC2 should be a fast paced online game.

2) I can see why Total War (shogun, medieval, rome) games arent campaign online games. Battles can take anywhere from 5 min to 1 hour depending on armies, city, etc. And each battle has to be fought out (auto-resolve if you wish to risk your empire). But in GC2 there is no ground combat. Its click and done type deal. Space battles can be done with out graphics/cinematics. Should not be a problem to play online and not waste all day waiting for 1 person. I think they can work this out to make it fast and less time consuming.

3) Its jsut more fun fighting it out with friends. Clan/Empires mean more when they have to actually face another empire. As i said before ive been playing Civ for a very long time. I have at least 300+ games in of just civ2 alone before they removed it from MSN/Zone. Not to mention how many from civ 3+4. Its fun, you learn who not to play, who is bad news, and make friends who like to continue games every weekend, 2-3 times a week, once a month or whatever. It is possible to play MP and not have the fun taken out of the game.

One of the reasons i was really looking foward to this game was i heard it might have ground combat and multiplayer. It doesnt have either. Not that im complaining as i bought the game. But Multiplayer i think would increase the fun 100% for many of us. Might not for others. Many things can happen to ruin your time and effort put into a game (lag, someone crashes, people have to go, cant finish) and you lose a lot of time. But things can go good as well and you can have long epic games, smack talk, human contact (diplomacy), and much more when things do go good.

They should add ground battles at least if not making multiplayer. I think best space empire game with ground battles was Imperium Galactica 2. Space battles were rough due to bad AI, but ground battles were great. GC2 with that would be sweet. But if they do add MP id skip that and do up MP so people can play ease free, reliable games online. Have many features in place to keep track of our empires, civs, ships, and make it easier and faster to move along.

It can work and be much fun. Try it for a year and see how it goes.

I understand both ways not to have mp and why people want it. I want it but wont be heart broken without it. Just feel the game would do much better with it.

Hope i stayed on topic here. I start to type and just ramble on. My apologies if i didnt
Reply #95 Top

Please let us know when the patch is coming out. If it is going to be an expansion and more money will have to be paid for a feature which is standard nowadays, well, that is something we would also like to know.

"Standard with other games".  Those other gaems also cost $10 more.  You're simply paying for the feature whether you want it or not. 

Reply #96 Top
PBEM and other non-real time options are a lot more doable and wouldn't compromise the game.  Multiplayer isn't particularly hard to do, but for head to head, real time play, GalCiv II wouldn't be very fun IMO.  But if ther'es demand, we can do it. 
Reply #97 Top
The kind of multiplayer that makes the most sense for GC2 is something like the Pitboss feature in Civ IV, with simultaneous turns. Has anybody tried that? I've been thinking about getting Civ IV just for that feature.
Reply #98 Top
Add me to the list of people willing to pay $10 for a Multiplayer add-on pack!

I'd never play Muliplayer with strangers. It takes HOURS, and odds are that the guy on the other end is going to have to deal with kids, homework, a wife, a husband, food, or work, or SOMETHING before the game ever ends.

HOWEVER

I have several friends who all love strategy games. We'll spend 3 hours playing Heroes of Might and Magic 3, and you bet your ass that we save our game when we're done, and load it up again a few days later to continue playing. We do this same type of thing with Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic, and other TBS games.

We'd love to be able to do this with GalCiv2, and we'll shell out a few bucks to be able to do so.

Thanks for such an awesome game!
Reply #99 Top
Three points:

1. Comparing Civ IV to GC2 is spurious. Civ IV DID make design decisions due to MP requirements that detracted from SP, and it took a while to get it even workable (anyone remember Civ III Play the World - bad, bad, bad, bad MP).

2. Comparing Firaxis Games to Stardock is also spurious. No offense to Stardock, but Firaxis is a much wealthier company with a big name lead dev and several big hits under their belt. I obviously have no numbers on the design costs for Civ IV compared to GC2, but I would lay good money that GC2 had a significantly lower budget. And we get back to the finite resources.

3. There are several people expressing 'shock' that GC2 is not MP. But you missed a point. Stardock indicated that they did SEVERAL polls on the necessity of MP for this game. And the results were always that those who wanted MP were the MINORITY. Those that want MP may be vocal, but they are the minority.

And to be honest, I'm sick of good games being 'nerfed' to make them feasable for MP. Sure, there are a few that came out winners on the end, but those are the minority as well. There are still a lot of us who want a good SP experience, and it is getting damn hard because of all the MP whiners. I'm glad that Stardockl made something for THIS side of the market for once. You MP guys want something? Fine, there are tons of MP games out there, go play them and quit bothering Stardock to devote dev costs for something that they probably won't make back in sales.

$10 for an MP patch. HAH! Probably have to have everyone who bought GC2 in the first place buy it to make the money back on it.
Reply #100 Top
Easy solution. Do a poll of how many people would buy an expansion which did nothing but add Multiplayer and any associated tweaks needed to make it run smoothly. By contrast, do another poll for how many would buy an expansion that did NOT include multiplayer but did include a new campaign, more options for customizing your race, expanded diplomacy options, etc (standard single player game expansion material). Multiply the price of the expansion by the number of people you expect would buy it and now you know if it would be worthwhile to do.