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Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Not all strategy games benefit from multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer. 

The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making.  Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world.  The Corporate Machine had multiplayer.  The Political Machine had multiplayer.

In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games.  Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity.  I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.

From this, I've concluded two things:

1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.

2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.

To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature.  Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.

But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth).  But the gameplay was not.  We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.

I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.

#1 It sacrifices single player features.  Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer.  What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.

But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies.  The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer.  That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.

My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games.  But what was sacrificed in exchange?  There's no campaign.  There's no in-depth scenarios.  No in-depth random events.  You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what.  Do you think this is a coincidence?  No random civil wars based on certain criteria?  No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while?  I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.

When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it.  We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal.  Same thing.

So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign.   I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape.  But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design?  And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.

Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience.  There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations.  Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on.  In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?

Similarly, there's diplomacy.  Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer.  The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations.  That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.

#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with.  And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).

Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50.  That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference.  Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99.  Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.

If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion.  Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it.  And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.

Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing.  We even have a multiplayer design.  But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.

#3 It would have changed the design priorities.

When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface.  So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.

Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it.  Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one.  The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships.  The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over.  Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).

But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently.  Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are.  Efficient is great in a multiplayer game.  But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.

And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:

The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:

And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?

In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.

It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance.  But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure.  And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.

But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind.  And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience. 

I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player.  The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer. 

And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't.  In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).

For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game. 

We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games.  But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game. 

 

3,179,801 views 616 replies | Pinned
Reply #226 Top
I think it's fantastic that you support SP completely and put all your time and effort into it. However, I think either a small patch to provide hotseat or simple LAN MP would be excellent. Or, an expansion would be fine too. By adding MP and SP aspects and content to an expansion you appeal to both groups. Whatever you decide... Gal Civ II is a great game!
Reply #227 Top
Master of Magic.... if anyone else has played that, you'll appreciate that in my GC2 custom civ, the leader is named S'sra.

And of course he's half chaos/half life magic.

Good game. Real good game.

And the hell with Multiplayer, I like to be able to close up the laptop at the end of class and not lose my GC2 progress!

Kudos on a great game.
Reply #228 Top
Greetings:


My apologies for the mistaken assignation of the sarcastic quote in the earlier post.


moo2niac: Are you more of a Cooperative or a Versus person? I am sure you go for a custom race, but with which image set?


I am thinking of starting a new thread called "The case FOR Multiplayer", to post our suggestions about what the Multiplayer content should be like, so that we do not continue to use this rather negative-titled thread. What are your thoughts about it?


Thank you for the time taken in reading this post.
Reply #229 Top
I think overall SP is awesome. And the way Galciv2 is done, I can talk to friends like from Neotech and be at peace with myself, without the smack talking baby-12 year old behavior that usually comes on space-shooting games.
Reply #230 Top
I think overall SP is awesome. And the way Galciv2 is done, I can talk to friends like from Neotech and be at peace with myself, without the smack talking baby-12 year old behavior that usually comes on space-shooting games.

EDIT > sorry for the double post, some sort of server error and somehow i guess i posted twice.
Reply #231 Top
Are you thinking TBS or MMORPG?
Reply #232 Top
I need to second (or third or forth) some of what was said above, and take it a step farther: I, in fact, bought this game partially because it did not have multi-player. I don't play MMO's and the like for the same reason that I didn't like playing Street Fighter back in the day--I don't have all day, every day to do nothing but play the game so that I can compete with those who do. There fore, I get my butt kicked. Hard. By somebody Leet-speaking.

I play these games to relax and unwind at the end of the day, not get pissed off all over again. However, most of the game world seems to be telling me that I have to play online, or I won't have any games to play. I have been playing the Civ line since the beginng and preordered Civ IV. When I got it, I remember thinking, "Well, it's pretty damn good, and it's got some slick stuff, but what's all the fuss about? It's not much different than III." Then I realized that all the hype was about the MP features, which were totally wasted on me.

Stardock seems to be the evil, superpowered android clone of Firaxis--they do everything Firaxis does, but better and is destine to steal all their friends and loved ones. I've been wanting them to update Alpha Centauri and it hit me yesterday that Stardock kind of did. GalCiv II has got everything I liked in AC, none of the things that annoyed me, and new stuff I never knew I was missing. To top it all off, it was less expesive and didn't have any of that kludgy MP stuff. Civ IV has been sitting in its pre-ordered, limited edition collector's case on the shelf ever since.


Rock on, Stardock!
Reply #233 Top
C4:AC is already in progress of creation. Arn't MODs great.

We want the smac/x experience that we can PBEM and LAN, not Masive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
Reply #234 Top
If you look at the part 3 interview on the Apolyton.net site ( http://galciv2.net/4/166/294 ), you will see that a hooseat feature is planned in an expansion.
Reply #235 Top
I've been playing this kind of games with a friend of mine since Pax Imperia 2. We always play on hotseat (either at one of our houses or we mail eachother the savegame and take turns (sometimes prolonging a game up to months!)) or on direct IP. I understand multiplaying with lots of human players on a server would not be good to this kind of game 'cuz of the time-limits. But I'm sure there are lots of true fans of the genre who take their time like us and would love to play it on hotseat one sunday afternoon or just on IP. I've played the demo and I loved it but I'm not sure I'm gonna buy it if I haven't the pleasure to share it with a friend. The talks you get into after long hours of playing into the same universe are unforgetable, it's like you enter a whole ne world and everybody else thinks you're talking gibberish

PS.: I promise to buy this game if I can play on IP or hotseat while mailing the save (lol).
Reply #236 Top
#201 by Vylay Also, I would like to ask FROGBOY (again) to please provide us with some insider info about the company's POV on the MP issue.


Yes I would also like to hear a current official view about this issue. Any official response will definitely decrease the posts whether it's good or bad news for multiplayer.


#235 by Traxas PS.: I promise to buy this game if I can play on IP or hotseat


I also plan on buying this game if LAN or Hotseat become available.
Reply #237 Top


Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience. There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations. Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on. In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off,


Why?

That's my big question when talking about multiplayer.

Why do these sorts of features need to be turned off in multiplayer?

Why can't a multiplayer game be EXACTLY the same as a single player game except that one (or more) of the opposing civilisations is being played by another human?

It always annoys me when I purchase a cool game that has multiplayer, to find out the multiplayer is inherently hobbled.

For example, the Total War games, awesome single-player games, and would be awesome in multiplayer if multiplayer supported the full campaign play.

Many FPS/RPG type games that have a storyline have multiplayer...but head-to-head deathmatch only...why not the full story in co-operative multiplayer?

I WANT in my multiplayer games the story, all the features, diplomacy, trade, ship design, tactical combat and so on.

If it makes the game take a long time, weeks say, so what?

Just add the ability to save/restore the game and we are golden.

Add the OPTION to turn off some elements that will slow gameplay, e.g. turn off tactical battles so they are autoresolved, simplified trade, and so on, but these should be OPTIONS.


If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion. Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it. And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.


I support adding multiplayer as an expansion to save costs on the initial game release...but that expansion, if all it does pretty much is add multiplayer, better cost only $10, $15 dollars, not $30 that many expansions cost if all it is doing is adding multiplayer.

I re-iterate, in my multiplayer games I do NOT want to lose the complexity, the 'fulff', I want it ALL to be there.
Reply #238 Top
Hear Hear.

Just straight forward, not this lets make a totally different game for MP.
Reply #239 Top
Just a note to say you did the right thing by not having multiplayer. I have never played a TBS multiplayer. Never. Never will either. If by not having multiplayer it allowed you to have that cool ship designer then I'd say BOY did you ever make the right decision. If it allowed you to have better single player gameplay then even more so.

I'd go even farther. If more resources become available to do something extra (considering it's a hit I suspect that's pretty likely) I think you should STILL stay away from multiplayer. Do more with the ship designer. Add tactical combat. Add more races. Add other nifty features. There's lots of things which could be done which have nothing to do with multiplayer, would not compromise existing gameplay, and would impact FAR more people.

I'm not against multiplayer per se. When I"m not playing GalCiv2 I'm playing MMORPGs. But I for one will never use a multiplayer feature in a TBS. If the single player gameplay is made less fun in any way in order to have multiplayer (either through resources spent on multiplayer instead of something else or because multiplayer doesn't allow certain features) then multiplayer is absolutely not worth it.

The conventional wisdom states that all games must have multiplayer. The conventional wisdom also states that all games must have obscene copy protection. Often the conventional wisdom is wrong. I think it is here on both counts.
Reply #240 Top
Pax imperia was made in 1993 (same year as masters of orion). It was TBS, it had an extremely cool ship-designer (specially for that time) AND it had multiplayer support for hotseat and lan up to 16players!! I'm sure other multi TBS's excist. There are lots of people who just don't mind the waiting in between 'cuz they're sharing a game with a mate. I don't want to play on a server, I just want to play with friends. I'm a social player, I don't like sitting by myself in the dark. It's fun , try it, have some stuff to eat and drink and get together for a whole night of galactic conquest on hotseat
Reply #241 Top
Pax imperia was made in 1993 (same year as masters of orion). It was TBS, it had an extremely cool ship-designer (specially for that time) AND it had multiplayer support for hotseat and lan up to 16players!! I'm sure other multi TBS's excist. There are lots of people who just don't mind the waiting in between 'cuz they're sharing a game with a mate. I don't want to play on a server, I just want to play with friends. I'm a social player, I don't like sitting by myself in the dark. It's fun , try it, have some stuff to eat and drink and get together for a whole night of galactic conquest on hotseat


Yes indeed... sharing a game with relatives and/or friends really really makes the game more fun and greatly increases replay value! It's too bad some gamers can't experience TBS strategy with other nearby humans and thus locked in a world of only SP or online multiplayer.
Reply #243 Top
So you're saying that there might be an expansion pack coming up?



Actually I read within an interview that two expansion packs are coming up for this game. Hopefully one of the ten new features will be multiplayer.
Reply #244 Top
Wow! A lot to read in this thread and I can only claim to have read half of it, so please forgive me if I am rehashing ideas here. My only thought on turn-based MP is this: many of you concerns are were easily addressed in my favorite turn-based strategy game ever - chess.

You give people time limits. Each player gets N minutes to play with. Time is only deducted from their clock once their turn starts; during other players turns you lose no time. This should also provide you with ample time for building ships. You reward players for moving quickly by giving adding M seconds to their clock for every move they make. If a player runs out of time, you have a couple of options:

1) He/she loses (as in chess) and all of their planents become available for conquering (like they were never colonized)
2) He/she loses and you let an AI player take over, who will finish the game for them (and very quickly I might add).

I also liked others' suggestion about disabling ship building during your turn, but I think hard time limits will solve the problem all the way around.


cheers,

chewybaka
Reply #245 Top
Here's another vote for a Hotseat MP mode. I used to play MOO2 countless hours with some good friends in hotseat mode and nothing in the world of TBS beats that so far. We are still looking for that legendary successor to MOO2 (MOO3 really did suck) and GalCiv2 could be it, if it only would have that hotseat feature. When I called one of my friends and told him about GalCiv2, he asked me: "Does it have hotseat mode?" I said: "No, unfortunately not." He: "Damn, forget it then." But I am still optimistic that you might add it later... Who knows, you might even get some NEW customers, over the ones that bought the SP game, if you add an MP mode.

Here's my case for hotseat mode:
- easy to implement. I am a software developer myself and I KNOW, it is not a lot of work to add hotseat to this game. The different configurable factions, the turn-taking, everything is already there. You just need to add a "turn change" screen and a battle report screen (don't forget that, very important!). Regarding "the fluff". Keep it, for goodness sake, but make it optional to turn it off in game options. Turn length will be regulated out of game: I just yell at my friend, if he takes too long.
- Good, social fun. If more than two players are playing, the others can talk, drink beer, watch tv, etc., while one player does his/her turn. No Internet/LAN play ever offers that.
- Real people as opponents to discuss your strategies with, develop new playing methods etc.

Furthermore: I think it is a misconception that MP games always have to be perfectly balanced to have fun. In Starcraft for example, there are normal maps and ladder maps with a perfectly fair distribution of resources, building space, access points etc., which leads to boring axis symmetrical maps. The fun here comes from competition, to see, who wins given absolutely even starting conditions. But this is not the only way to have fun with MP. Hardly ever two given players have exactly the same level of skill. Why not give a bad/inexperienced player some (configurable) advantages (like the ability to find precursor ships) to even the odds and increase the challenge for the better one?
Reply #246 Top
My strong support for HotSeat/LAN/PBEM options to be added as an expansion. I will put my money where my mouth is. GC2 has potential to be played-for-years legend-game as MoO2 has been if it has MP expansion pack available.
Reply #247 Top
Tottally agree with u frogboy,u make a exellent point. (man u have high diplomacy skill )

It can be quite stresfull playing against strangers online,one must be quite competetive nature and a s s.I enjoy playing against friends,multiplayer that is,exeption to MMORPG.The game looks sweet....just downloading full version.Ur mentioning Civil4,man i find it tottally flawed it is missing all stuff u metioned.If u would add multiplayer later,would be great.If it means loosing great ai,diplomacy..random stuff, etc...dont make it.
This is what i think Rome totawar was missing,diplomacy and cool random stuff from GC2.
Keep up the great work...and make finally graphic novels of Galactic Civilisations
Reply #248 Top
Just bought the game, played through 3 games before I even realized that there wasn't multiplayer. That sorta says something to me as to how important it is.

That 10$ difference is a strong reason I chose to purchace GC2 as opposed to Civ4.

I will however gladly spend more if/when an expansion is available, because I would like multi-play eventually.

Also, this games rocks my socks BTW.
Reply #249 Top
I'd like to add my vote for some form of mulitiplayer.
I only play mulitiplayer over a LAN due to being stuck with a very slow dial up connection.

Maybe I'm just getting old but I still remember sitting around with friends playing board games until the wee small hours having an absolute ball. You had no optiion then but to wait for your turn.
I still enjoy sitting around playing the occasional board game with friends, but spend far more time playing over the LAN these days. I have to agree with previous posters about playing TBS games in this kind of environment - It's great fun!
There is room to grab a drink, talk, plot against others etc while you wait for your turn.
It's not like playing online at all.
It's a different way of playing.
An older way perhaps?
But it's still a bloody great way to pass the time!!
Reply #250 Top
Exactly.

One uses GC as a medium for social interaction.

We dont lock ourselves in a closet.