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Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Not all strategy games benefit from multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer. 

The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making.  Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world.  The Corporate Machine had multiplayer.  The Political Machine had multiplayer.

In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games.  Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity.  I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.

From this, I've concluded two things:

1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.

2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.

To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature.  Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.

But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth).  But the gameplay was not.  We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.

I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.

#1 It sacrifices single player features.  Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer.  What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.

But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies.  The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer.  That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.

My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games.  But what was sacrificed in exchange?  There's no campaign.  There's no in-depth scenarios.  No in-depth random events.  You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what.  Do you think this is a coincidence?  No random civil wars based on certain criteria?  No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while?  I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.

When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it.  We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal.  Same thing.

So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign.   I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape.  But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design?  And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.

Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience.  There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations.  Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on.  In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?

Similarly, there's diplomacy.  Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer.  The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations.  That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.

#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with.  And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).

Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50.  That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference.  Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99.  Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.

If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion.  Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it.  And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.

Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing.  We even have a multiplayer design.  But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.

#3 It would have changed the design priorities.

When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface.  So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.

Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it.  Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one.  The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships.  The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over.  Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).

But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently.  Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are.  Efficient is great in a multiplayer game.  But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.

And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:

The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:

And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?

In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.

It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance.  But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure.  And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.

But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind.  And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience. 

I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player.  The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer. 

And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't.  In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).

For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game. 

We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games.  But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game. 

 

3,180,464 views 616 replies | Pinned
Reply #276 Top
Case #1,280,847 against multiplayer: It looks like even a $20 expansion is too steep a price for people to pay to get multiplayer functionality. I mean, why complain that you want MP if people won't put their money where their mouth is? I'd pay $20 for MP if I had some people to play it with, but I don't, so I don't really care too much.

It would be cool if TBS games had a unique brand of multiplayer where someone hosts the game on their machine and everyone is allowed to "log in" and play one turn per cycle. If you miss a cycle, then you miss your turn, pure and simple. A cycle could be a week, a day, or even an hour, as set by the host. I've never seen any TBS games since VGA planets to use this system. It's great when you want to play a game with like 8 people.

=$= Big J Money =$=

PS -- I take that back... Dominions II uses this system. I forgot that I owned that game.... it got old when I realized the whole game was about who can summon monsters faster :-/
Reply #277 Top
The only people complaining about the lack of multiplayer are people who probably complain about everything and just like to whinge.



Greetings:


I do not know what whinging is nor how to accomplish such, but it sounds nasty. I will make sure to avoid it in the future. It would pay to read all previous posts prior to discusing them at all, since it has long been the opinion of the Pro-Multiplayer community, that no content should be removed from the game in order to make it multiplayer-friendly. We want everything left in. Since the multiplayer option in this game will be used mainly to share it with friends and family, the possibility of someone complaining about "unfairness" is diminished to the point of being unimportant. Given the amounts of time and thinking that turn based strategy games demand, they are not for the faint of heart. Nor for whiners.


Thank you for the time taken in reading this post.
Reply #278 Top
Phenomenal post by the OP. It makes perfect sense, and I can better appreciate the time and features put into GalCiv2. If MP is eventually added to the game (expansion), I will buy it. If not, I won't loose any sleep over it. GalCiv2 is a fantastic game and adds a good amount to the genre (IMO).
Reply #279 Top
I totally understand why multiplayer is given a low priority, it makes good business sense.

What I was wondering was, given the CTRL-SHIFT-Z thing mentioned in the "did you know you could do this" thread, just how difficult it would be to implement hotseat? The only real drawback I can see is the diplomacy thing, and that could maybe be sorted by adding an agree button for both sides on the trade screen if they are both human players.

I assume the CTRL_SHIFT_Z thing puts AI in charge when you swap, so that'd need to be disabled, but do you think it would be easy to implement?
Reply #280 Top
For the people attempting to make old games work on new systems, I have gotten MoO2 and Master of Magic working fine under XP Pro, although MoM does not have sound. You can even get the audio to work, but you have to get full machine-emulation working which means it runs as if you are playing on an old 8086-based IBM PC.

If you need any help with either program, email me at [email protected]

Reply #281 Top
I would happily pre-pay for even a "brainless toggle, no game modifications" multiplayer add-on.

I deeply respect Brad's commitment to AI development and I agree with his (counterintuitive, if you look at most new 4x games) logic that 98% of 4x play is singleplayer. Probably 99% of mine is - but I do have friends I multiplay with, and I would _love_ to have the chance to have a game now and again; when I have the chance to multiplay it means I have a chance to use, socially, skills developed while single-playing. To me, this enhances my single-player experience, knowing that the satisfaction of beating an AI is not my only reward - my chances of thumping my friends gradually go up as well.

And defeating a human opponent is truly, truly fun. It's like a treat - I like the Total War games a lot but I like multiplayer with friends on a LAN most of all - and I'd really like to be able to play 'mini campaigns' on a strategic map against my friends in that series.
Reply #282 Top
It sure is refreshing to see a developer willing to give some insight into why certain aspects of the game are or are not implemented and are willing to listen to what the community has to say about it. That being said, I would just like to add my two cents. Although I agree with all the points made against online play for a TBS game, as well as the fact that most of my online experiences have been signifigantly diminished by the lengthy wait times and the cheaters/jerks that seem to be the majority of online players, the hotseat option is a completely different story for me. Being able to play with my wife and friends at my own home erases most of the drawbacks that I hate about online play and is the only reason why games like Age of Wonders and Civ are still played repeatedly in my home. There is no need to streamline the game or remove any of the asthetic "fluff" during hotseat play and sharing that kind of stuff with friends makes it more rewarding than in SP mode in our opinion. I would not buy an online expansion unless it included a hotseat option.

Sentari.
Reply #283 Top
While I voted against a $20 Multiplayer only expansion pack, I wouldn't mind buying an expansion pack where multiplayer was enabled in addition to things like tactical spacebattles and a larger, more intertwined, techtree.
Reply #284 Top
While I do not want true multiplayer, I really would like "hotseat" multiplayer for GalCiv II. This would allow me to play more than one race, or me and a friend could really gang up on the rest of the universe. I would think that a hotseat option would not cost much more, and preserve many of the things that are great about GalCiv II. You do not have to have the sharing aspects of artifacts/wonders like Civ IV, if that is a cost factor.

Maybe this sugesstion should be a new thread? Mind you, I have not read any of the other replies, so this may have already been covered. Thanks for a great game otherwise.
Reply #285 Top
While I voted against a $20 Multiplayer only expansion pack, I wouldn't mind buying an expansion pack where multiplayer was enabled in addition to things like tactical spacebattles and a larger, more intertwined, techtree.


The POLL is up to see precisely who is interested in multiplayer. No company would release a multiplayer only expansion... it's never been done. It's the same as releasing a campaign editor only expansion... it would not happen.

Ideally the POLL should have been written as:
Would you play multiplayer if it became available within an expansion? (yes or no)

The current POLL is very poorly written.
Reply #286 Top
I think the poll makes sense given BW's views on multiplayer and how it should be released; and I suspect the multiplayer pack would be JUST a multiplayer pack - he feels that single-player should not subsidize multiplayer, and if the pack combined SP and MP aspects then single-players who bought it for SP content would still be subsidizers.

To be honest, I do think that the 'subsidizing' model is a bit inaccurate - I feel MP enhances SP even if you only use MP once in a blue moon, because it turns SP into 'practice' for a competitive social behavior. I feel a bit more 'useless' playing against a computer if I am not improving my ability to win against a friend later; who knows how prevelant that attitude is, of course.

But BW feels strongly about it, and he's a great dev, so I'll go along with the model - and say yes, I am quite happy to pay 20 bucks extra for any real multiplayer; preferably lan-playable but no great tweaks required.
Reply #287 Top
The Multi Vs. SP arguement is similar to the Intel Vs. AMD arguement in that whichever way one's mind is set, no words from the other side will cause a change. I'm on the side of the SP'ers due to many bad times with Multi. Multi seems to attract folks who want nothing more than to have the highest rank no matter the cost. The game no longer matters. Loosing is not an option to the majority of them. Cheating/exploits can and will be used to further this goal. While SP lacks the social aspect from the few good MP'ers that I've come across, I do not feel that I'm missing anything with CivGal not having MP. For those who bought the game ASSUMING it had MP just becuase it does not say that is doens't have it the box, next time read the ESRB Ratings (found normally on the back of the box as the one on the front is for quick reference.). If it has MP abaility, it will say something along the line of "Game Experience May Change During Online Play."

Just my 2 cents...I vote for no MP.

On a side note, Stormcaller3801, do a google for dosbox. I have XP64 Pro and I play a lot of old dos games with out a problem. MoM included.
Reply #288 Top
I'm on the side of the SP'ers due to many bad times with Multi. Multi seems to attract folks who want nothing more than to have the highest rank no matter the cost. The game no longer matters. Loosing is not an option to the majority of them. Cheating/exploits can and will be used to further this goal. While SP lacks the social aspect from the few good MP'ers that I've come across, I do not feel that I'm missing anything with CivGal not having MP. For those who bought the game ASSUMING it had MP just becuase it does not say that is doens't have it the box, next time read the ESRB Ratings (found normally on the back of the box as the one on the front is for quick reference.).


The reason you don't enjoy MP is because you've done multiplayer online. Multiplayer online is bad for two main reasons... first the internet connection, ISP and your area may cause unstable gameplay and second most multiplayer gamers avoid playing unknown strangers because many of them cheat or quit or both.
Most requesting the multiplayer option seek the feature to play with friends and family... by voting no you are saying that you NEVER want to play this game with your family or friends. Dominions_2 is a multiplayer TBS game which can take months to finish a game yet it is still very popular and can be great fun with family and friends. I only hope Gal Civ 2 goes multiplayer otherwise others like myself will never buy the game.
Reply #289 Top
I can't imagine playing sort or game at all on line. Lets see :

1) Time to play a game. (Get same players there for the whole time)
2) Can't imagine waiting for humans to do their turns. (don't see simultaneous solution)

I have Civ4 and I never even considered playing on-line, it's not appealing for the same reasons. Now battlefield or counter-strike hell ya. Fire it up, play for 30 minutes, jump from server to server whatever.

I think the better way to go is to support the hell of out of the mod communty to extend the lifespan of the game. There are so many cool things that could be done to keep the game interesting. The best thing i can see would be lots of options for how the AI's play, and the possibility of plugging in chuncks of user defined code to change thier behavior.
Reply #290 Top
Multiplayer for galciv 2 would suck because i usually spend up to 20+ mins on a turn later in game. Plus human players will just find the easiest and cheesiest tricks to get rid of any players.I'd much rather play with a cpu which i can play with at my level than some 1337 H/-\XX0Rz . And what about the ship editor? Can someone actually wait for a person trying to make a capital ship?

Seriously you're missing out on so much if you don't try GalCiv2 just because it isn't multiplayer.
Reply #291 Top
I have patience.

On missing out. I have played the demo and as a SP TBS for space it is nice but without social interaction I see no reason to buy it.
Reply #293 Top
I've read all the opinions for and against multiplayer and I believe I understand the arguments. Brad makes a compelling case. That said, I consider it a huge disappointment that GalCiv lacks multiplayer. For me, that makes it a 2nd class game, an anachronism with a shorter shelf life and far more value in our household.

I don't play multiplayer games with strangers on the Internet, I understand that can often be a rough experience. My wife and I are big multiplayer gamers and have been playing Civ IV to death. We also play MMO's extensively. And the RPGs that we play are all MP. Not having MP in GalCiv means that my wife and I will never play it together, and further means that whenever I play it, I'm choosing not to play with my wife. That just kills me.

Say what you will about the majority subsidizing the minority, but it happens all the time in gaming. A large percentage of players will never choose to win with Diplomacy. But there it is. Features are often added to products just because they are enabling, even if not fully utilized. It doens't make them less valuable to the franchise, and in fact it can benefit the franchise if done properly. Civ IV may not have some features a lot of folks would like, but the game's sales haven't suffered because of having MP, and for the business folks at Stardock, that should be a clue.

Leaving out Multiplayer will only alienate those of us who play only multiplayer games. Putting it in would not have had a similar effect but for the fact that you have now armed opponents with a lot of arguments that bring to their attention the alleged costs that are attributable to the choice, things that they would in many cases not have complained about in the absence of knowledge of their existence.

It's your game and it's your choice, and to all those who are ready to respond with the usual reminders about the many multiplayer choices available out there to me, that's fine. I hear you guys and I'm happy to leave and go play those. But I'm here to express my view, that's all it is, and tell you I think it's a business mistake, and a big shame that something this good is going to be relegated to the solitary world of single players isolated from their friends and family.

My two cents.
Reply #294 Top
Oh yeah, one more thing. I will gladly pay an extra $20 for a multiplayer option, and then STILL buy multiple copies of the game.
Reply #295 Top
If you people want multiplayer so bad looks like your going to have to mod your way to it. GalCiv 2 is suppose to be very modable. Somebody better get to work.
Reply #296 Top
I would pay $20 for a mulitplayer expansion, however I accidently selected no on the poll page (thought I clicked on the yes, but notice the no was selected as I hit vote) and did not find anyway to reset my poll position...
Reply #297 Top
I wish MODing could add LAN and PBEM but the changes needed would infringe on copyright.
Reply #298 Top
Any sort of multiplayer has to be done by Stardock; you can't just "mod" it in. Think about it. If nothing else, there would have to be a mechanism to record the activities of one player so that the results (such as battles) could be viewed by the other player(s). Actually the same applies to the machine players -- one computer would have to control the AI moves, then record all that activity so it could be replayed for viewing by the other player(s). Those are pretty fundamental code changes assuming the game internals are written with a single-player focus, as would seem to be the case based on Frogboy's original post.
Reply #299 Top
Well the multiplayer voting poll is finished... we should see the posted results either today or tomorrow.

edit:
There's definitely an eerie silence as gamers wait for the results.
Reply #300 Top
I want Multiplayer, lan, and internet formats, i will pay the cost of the game again for it.