COL Gene

ELECTION IN AFGHANISTAN SHOWS FATAL FLAW IN BUSH POLICY

ELECTION IN AFGHANISTAN SHOWS FATAL FLAW IN BUSH POLICY



The highly publicized election in Afghanistan yesterday has documented the fatal flaw in the foreign policy George W. Bush is pursuing which is, the Spreading Democracy Theory. This is the holy Grail of foreign-policy which is supposed to make America safer and for which we are willing to sacrifice our young men and women.

The problem with this idea is that in many areas of Afghanistan, the voters DID NOT KNOW any candidates running for office. At the polling places, voters talked among themselves as to who each was going to vote for since no one knew any of the candidates. They did not know what they stood for and might as well have closed their eyes and voted. The reason for this is the candidates were afraid to campaign or make themselves known for fear of assassination. This is the very same thing that has taken place in many locations in Iraq. Many candidates in the highly touted Iraqi election were not known until the voters saw their names on the ballot FOR THE FIRST TIME when they voted! George Bush does not realize that the Muslim populations in these countries are simply not ready for democracy. Until there is security, that will allow candidates to make themselves and what they stand for known to the voters, there can be NO REAL DEMOCRACY! We are not even close to that in either Iraq or Afghanistan!
29,832 views 103 replies
Reply #26 Top
Island Dog.

The situation in Afganistn is not good. First, the central government that is linked to us does not control most of the country. War Lords, who have NO loyalty to the US control most of the country. The poppy issue is back with no solution in sight. We never completed the job in that country and diverted our forces to Iraq which is also out of control. Even the reconstruction in Iraq is not doing well. Look at the story Sept 18 by Craig Smith of the New York Times about the corruption in that progrem tha tthe American tax Payers are paying for.. Look at what is taking place almost EVERY DAY in Iraq. The News, from almost every source shows the Bush policy is NOT WORKING! The next issue will be the approval of the constitution in Iraq on 15 Oct.
Reply #27 Top
Col, I have asked you several times. Do you look at the good news out of Iraq, or just the headlines the biased media shows you?
Reply #28 Top
Island Dog.

The situation in Afganistn is not good. First, the central government that is linked to us does not control most of the country. War Lords, who have NO loyalty to the US control most of the country. The poppy issue is back with no solution in sight. We never completed the job in that country and diverted our forces to Iraq which is also out of control. Even the reconstruction in Iraq is not doing well. Look at the story Sept 18 by Craig Smith of the New York Times about the corruption in that progrem tha tthe American tax Payers are paying for.. Look at what is taking place almost EVERY DAY in Iraq. The News, from almost every source shows the Bush policy is NOT WORKING! The next issue will be the approval of the constitution in Iraq on 15 Oct.


Sorry col, but this is only "YOUR" opinion! It seems that if one actually reads the news every day, that nobody with a brain holds these opinions to be true.
Reply #29 Top
The first attempt at a new country typically doesn't go all that well, even when assisted by those who know what they're doing and have some practice at it.

Col. I suggest you take a look at our own history, before our beloved Constitution was signed, we had the Articles of Confederation and a government structure that was almost entirely decentralized, with the power going to the states instead of a federal branch. It failed. America's first attempt at democracy and independence failed miserably and they had to go back to the drawing board completely. Over time, we got better at it. Even with elections we're still figuring out how to get them completely right. Hell, it was a LONG time before women could vote, a long time before blacks could vote. Now we have issues of dead people voting. Democracy and the running of elections is a complicated thing. It takes both a refined system AND a certain cultural awareness. There's no such thing as DemocracyInABox that we can just drop on a nation and have everything go perfectly.

This first election is a MAJOR step in the right direction. Think of it as the first great leap forward, that they've made it across the chasm and now have to carefully navigate a rickety old bridge one step at a time. They've got the process started, they'll learn what went well and what didn't and improve it next time. On top of the process they have to get the people used to the idea of voting. That will take years of education.

It takes time, this sort of thing doesn't happen over night. That is your problem Col. You want immediate results to every action, when in reality it takes a while for things to shape up... especially new governments.
Reply #30 Top
Big Difference is that America internally sought to be free. We did not have an outside country come in and attack the English.

The news from almost EVERY source about Iraq is poor. The security, reconstruction, or political (constitution). How anyone can say Iraq is working is just not looking. Read the New York Times article about the corruption in the reconstruction projects. Look at the growing number of Iraqi deaths. As many people in Iraq have died since the war started as Saddam killed. I have read estmates between 30-50,000 have died since we invaded Iraq.

We have created a large numbers of new enemies in the Moslem world by our actions in Iraq.
Reply #31 Top
The news from almost EVERY source about Iraq is poor. The security, reconstruction, or political (constitution). How anyone can say Iraq is working is just not looking. Read the New York Times article about the corruption in the reconstruction projects. Look at the growing number of Iraqi deaths. I have read estmates between 30-50,000 have died since we invaded Iraq.


Because you only get your news from the media who doesn't report the good news. When was the last time you read one of Shadowar's posts?


As many people in Iraq have died since the war started as Saddam killed.


That is not true col. That was another moveon.org talking point that has been debunked. This proves once again col you are nothing but a mouthpiece of the radical left that does nothing but continuously repeat the same old taking points.


We have created a large numbers of new enemies in the Moslem world by our actions in Iraq.


Islam is the problem itself col, not what we do. Everything makes muslims mad in this world.
Reply #32 Top
Even our local rag, which NEVER reports good news from Iraq or Afghanistan, had the success of the Afghanistan elections despite Taliban threats as the lead Page 1 story today. Gene depends on closed-minded sources for closed-minded people.

Cheers,
Daiwa
Reply #33 Top
Gene depends on closed-minded sources for closed-minded people.


That's pretty much the entire MSM.
Reply #34 Top
Big Difference is that America internally sought to be free. We did not have an outside country come in and attack the English.

The French certainly had a hand in things. But you are partially right, our drive for freedom started from within. However, that is beside the point here. The point was that any time you setup a new government, there are moments of stumbling, nothing goes right the first time out. It takes TIME to get things right. It took us 144 years to achieve Universal Sufferage. Was every American election a sham up to that point?

The lack of awareness of who was running was a CULTURAL one, not a failing of the electoral system. These people have no concept of what a truely free election is. They probably didn't believe it would happen until the very day itself came. This was the first step... lets see how they do with it, and how they do with the next election now that they know what they're all about.

Col, you have to show some patience with these things, nothing can be accomplished immediately.
Reply #35 Top
I do not know what the school board election has to do with this. I won about 45% 0f the vote and ran aginst a local resident that was a school teacher and had many contacts that I did not have.


It has everything to do with your comments saying that people voting for people they don't know is just oh so wrong.

So it seems that even in your own failed election attempt at least 50% of the people either didn't know you, or they knew all about you and wouldn't vote for you. That was, of course, just of the voting populace. Never mind the uninformed local masses that never bothered to vote.

You run your fingers/yap off saying that people voting for people they don't even know is such a big problem, and then you readily admit that your opponent in a local election beat you because they were more well known, had more friends, etc. So how was your election attempt not a sham again?

In elections in general most people will never know the candidate they are voting for. They know the party label (most likely) but next to nothing about the candidate they are voting for. In this country it's assumed that a vote for Democrat equates to a vote for abortion, for social services, and for higher taxes and bigger government. A vote for Republican typically equates to conservative values, potentially restrictions on abortion, lower taxes and smaller government. That's the best many people voting in our own elections understands, and yet I don't see you bitching about those voting trends/procedures/policies (except to complain that Bush stole the election, was selected and not elected, blah blah blah).

You just want to bitch about Bush, and you are trying to fling pooh in an area where good is actually coming from the effort.

Afghani people are voting, and defying the odds to do it.

Women have more power and more rights in Afghanistan than ever before.

The Taliban is finding, yet again, that their control over the situation and their ability to influence people is gone.

And yet you claim it's all a failure.

If this is a failure, please god deliver many more like it.
Reply #36 Top
Well said.

Afghani people are voting, and defying the odds to do it.

Women have more power and more rights in Afghanistan than ever before.

The Taliban is finding, yet again, that their control over the situation and their ability to influence people is gone.

And yet you claim it's all a failure.

If this is a failure, please god deliver many more like it.
Reply #37 Top
Look at the growing number of Iraqi deaths. As many people in Iraq have died since the war started as Saddam killed. I have read estmates between 30-50,000 have died since we invaded Iraq.


This is an "outright" LIE!
This is from wikipedia.com


The UN sanctions placed upon Iraq when it invaded Kuwait were not lifted, blocking Iraqi oil exports. This caused immense hardship in Iraq and virtually destroyed the Iraqi economy and state infrastructure. Only smuggling across the Syrian border, and humanitarian aid ameliorated the humanitarian crisis. UN organizations (such as UNICEF and the WHO) have estimated between 500,000 and 1.2 million deaths were caused by the sanctions, mostly in the under-5 age group [9].
Reply #38 Top
Neither Afghanistan or Iraq are even close to being able to be stable without our help. Even with our help, these countries are a security nightmare. We have had many Moslems that hated us but our actions, especially in Iraq, have added many more that hate us and are willing to fight aginst us. That is why, we are not safer today then before we attacked Iraq. That is not my opinion but the opinion of most of the experts on terrorism. We have wasted lives and money to create an Iraq that is far more dangerous to us today then under Saddam. Iraq under Saddam did not pose any real threat to America. He was a bastard and posed a danger to his people. That did not make him a danger to the US. In addition to Iraq, Moslems in many other countriues hate the US and the most radical factions have used our attacking Iraq as a battle cry. A non-Moslem country can not attack a Moslem country without creating many NEW enemies!
Reply #39 Top
Thanks for totally avoiding what we said col. You show you blind hatred for Bush is all that matters
Reply #40 Top
Support for terrorism, including suicide bombings, has declined substantially in several Muslim countries in the past two years, according to a survey conducted earlier this year.

The survey, commissioned by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, found that in almost all of the Muslim countries where the poll was taken, including Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan and Morocco, there was less support for suicide bombing as a means to defend Islam against its enemies than there had been in past years. The only exception was Jordan.

The survey also shows that the public in several Muslim countries share the widespread belief in Europe and North America that Islamic extremism is a threat. In Morocco, 73 percent of respondents expressed a worry about Islamic extremism, while roughly half of the respondents in Pakistan, Turkey and Indonesia, three of the world's most populous Muslim countries, shared that concern.


It's amazing you missed this poll col since you love polls so much. I forgot, if the poll doesn't agree with your opinions it's not "reliable".
Reply #41 Top
Here's another poll for you col.

WASHINGTON, March 4 /PRNewswire/ -- In the first substantial shift of public opinion in the Muslim world since the beginning of the United States' global war on terrorism, more people in the world's largest Muslim country now favor American efforts against terrorism than oppose them. This is just one of many dramatic findings of a new nationwide poll in Indonesia released today.

"In a stunning turnaround of public opinion, support for Bin Laden and terrorism in the world's most populous Muslim nation has dropped significantly, while favorable views of the United States have increased," said Kenneth Ballen, President of Terror Free Tomorrow, which commissioned the poll. "The poll shows that the reason for this positive change is the American response to the tsunami," Ballen added.

Key Findings of the Poll:

* For the first time ever in a major Muslim nation, more people favor US-led efforts to fight terrorism than oppose them (40% to 36%).

Importantly, those who oppose US efforts against terrorism have declined by half, from 72% in 2003 to just 36% today.

* For the first time ever in a Muslim nation since 9/11, support for Osama Bin Laden has dropped significantly (58% favorable to just 23%).

* 65% of Indonesians now are more favorable to the United States because of the American response to the tsunami, with the highest percentage among people under 30.

* Indeed, 71% of the people who express confidence in Bin Laden are now more favorable to the United States because of American aid to tsunami victims.

Reply #42 Top
They hated us before... now they just have a cause to rally against that's more specific.

Of course, your ranting about making new enemies and such has absolutely nothing to do with your original assertion, which was that since voters weren't previously aware of who was running for election in Afghanistan, that the entire rebuilding effort is a complete failure. We started out talking about the success/failure of their first ever parlamentary election, and now you're railing against how we've created enemies throughout the muslim world.

You also failed to actually address any responses about the election, choosing instead to take individual statements out of context and run on weird tangents, ignoring the actual points being made. You have not once addressed the fact that elections are a thing that need time and work to get right, that they evolve. Our own history points out how shaky elections can go, even when done "right" You have proven beyond any shadow of doubt, that the issues at hand don't matter to you except as a gateway to bashing Bush or bringing up the National Debt.

Actually... you remind me of a substitute teacher I had many times in High School... Mr. Martin. Mr. Martin was a bombadier in WWII and had all sorts of neat war stories. Unfortunately, the man was also paranoid and convinced students and teachers were trying to trick him and make a fool of him. His other problem was that he had a near fanatical devotion to three topics:

1. The National Debt.
In every class he ever subbed, he would write the latest number up on the board... and he'd spend half the class at least railing about it and it's impact. He did this in Math class, Science class, Social Studies, Shop... everything... didn't have to relate at all to the lesson. This was especially painful when I had him two days in a row, because he would forget he had already railed on this topic and would start all over again. Nothing could stop this man from going on and on about the debt. I even once directly asked him in front of the class what it had to do with the class (AP European History), he gave me a blank stare for a few moments and then went on as if nothing had happened.

2. The Air Force
This was the only interesting obsession of his. If prompted, he'd go on and on with great war stories from WWII. This was cool and sometimes we could divert him off of the Natl Debt with this one

3. Genetics/Family Trees
I have no idea why he was obsessed with this one... all I know is sometimes he'd randomly go off on diagraming peoples families and such. It was weird.

Your remind me a lot of him... you're paranoid, obsessive to the point of irrationality, and you can't keep with the current topic of any discussion to save your life... it always comes back to Bush/Iraq/Natl Debt with you, even when it doesn't make any sense (like on this one).
Reply #43 Top
Looking for Peace in Iraq

By Adil Shamoo | September 14, 2005

Editor: Erik Leaver


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Foreign Policy In Focus
www.fpif.org

Despite increased U.S. military operations and the stepped-up training of Iraqis, the Iraq insurgency continues to be deadly—nearly 3 U.S. soldiers died per day in August. Dwarfing that number are Iraqi deaths as a result of the fighting which average 34 every day.

What’s most troubling about the attacks is their nature: they largely target innocent civilians. Recently the Iraq Ministry of Interior estimated that insurgent violence has claimed the lives of 12,000 Iraqi civilians since the war began.

Nearly all Iraqis universally condemn these killings. There are even incidents now where some elements of the insurgency are attacking insurgents who target Iraqis.

The United States has been unable to quell the insurgency—in fact, the military can’t even secure a six-mile highway from the Baghdad airport to the city. Killing and jailing insurgents hasn’t worked. Former Department of Defense General Jack Keane estimated two months ago that more than 50,000 insurgents have been killed so far, but their active ranks remain between 16,000 and 20,000. The United States has shown all insurgents in the Muslim world that military power and occupation can’t conquer their hearts and minds.

Recent declarations by U.S. and Iraqi officials that significant troop reductions may begin in early 2006 are welcome because they finally reflect reality—the insurgency in its different forms can’t be defeated on the military battleground. The reason is simple.

In every successful insurgency movement, you have to have a core group surrounded by multiple circles of support—much as an onion has layers upon layers over its center. At the core of the insurgency are the fighters. They are surrounded by layers of support that enable their function: people who provide or store weapons; others who provide financing and other needed supplies; and even those who allow the insurgents to hide.

Outer layers of this support are still powerful. Some people provide information to the insurgency and many others provide the psychological support to the insurgents. And there are others who provide support through their acquiescence, silence, and indifference.

All of these elements create the breeding grounds for a continued insurgency. And the primary cause for these layers of support is opposition to the U.S. occupation. Unfortunately, most policymakers, pundits, and politicians (Republicans or Democrats) don’t talk about the elephant in the room: the occupation. They would rather discuss victory strategies than face the reality that Iraqis are fighting the “liberators” and occupiers.

Recently, I acted as a translator for a day to labor leaders from Iraq who were touring the United States. These courageous Iraqis spanned my native country’s entire political spectrum. But they all were against the insurgents and at the same time wanted to end the occupation as soon a possible and peacefully. Moreover, over 100 members of the Iraqi parliament have signed a petition calling to end the occupation.

There are three things that could restore peace in Iraq: First, the United States (and UN Security Council) must establish guarantees that the U.S. occupation will end. It should be made clear that it is the policy of the United States to leave Iraq as soon as possible. Second, the United States should declare that it has no intention of maintaining any permanent U.S. bases on Iraqi soil and cease building new military facilities.

Finally, the Iraqi government, UN agencies, and the United States should establish a set of benchmarks that can be used as a roadmap for getting out of Iraq and quickly. The United States has been forceful in pushing forth timelines for Iraqis to meet—it is now time for the United States to do the same by setting their own benchmarks and timelines.

Iraqis, the U.S. public, and now even members of the U.S. Congress are calling for an exit strategy. It’s time for President Bush to hear these calls of the people and explain what the plan is and when U.S. troops will come home.

Adil E. Shamoo, born and raised in Baghdad, is a professor at the University of Maryland School of Medicine. He is a contributor to Foreign Policy In Focus (www.fpif.org).




Bush's Iraq War:
What are its actual effects?

First the best results:
Saddam Hussein and his abusive despotic government are gone.

This has lifted an enormous burden from the Iraqi people. It has ended a reign of state-executed crime and repression, with offenses ranging up to wholesale murder and torture. This is the strongest argument to support a position that the Iraq War was moral.

This must be balanced against the following other effects, which tend to support a position that the war was immoral. How any particular person balances these opposing arguments depends on personal values; my own answer is that in varying degrees the war was both moral and immoral.

Now the negative results:

* Much of the world sees this as a war of aggression and occupation.
They're right, according to the dictionary definitions of these terms.

* Much of the world sees the war and the campaign of threat leading up to it as terrorism.
Again, the dictionary agrees. The feeling was well-conveyed to me by the impassioned words of a Persion immigrant who said "We all want the end of Saddam Hussein, but why did they have to do it by war?"

* The war caused the deaths of more than 5,000 civilian fatalities and a number of combatants that probably lies somewhere between 10,000 and 100,000. Recently updated death counts are:
5,531 to 7,203 deaths of Iraqi civilians documented by 6/5/03
161 U.S. military deaths reported on 5/28/03
32 British military deaths reported on 5/28/03

* The war's economic cost to the U.S. begins with a down payment of $80 billion, with more to come.

* The war produced anarchy, extensive looting, civil unrest, and disruption of public services in Iraq, including water and power.
Losses include museum artifacts dating from the dawn of civilization. Some of the most critical facilities that were shut down almost completely by looting were hospitals throughout Baghdad. Throughout Iraq availability of electrical power is limited and intermittent, and much of Iraq has no safe water supply. Recently the first cases of cholera were reported, producing high risk of an epidemic due to unsafe water. Most Iraqis complain that they have no government, no help from occupying forces, and limited ability to help themselves due to results of the war.

* Iraq's next government might not be much better.
Early indications are that the majority of Iraqis want an Islamic republic and the Communist Party seems to be leading the race to recruit new members.

* The war has alienated most of the Arab world, including terrorist elements.
There's a good chance that we have created at least a platoon of future Osama bin Ladens and a battalion of militant followers. At a minimum, America is less welcome in much of the Middle East and our international relations in this area have already become much more difficult.

* The war seriously damaged American relationships with traditional allies.
This compounds friction created by numerous earlier examples of Bush administration unilateralism. One result has already been meetings that could initiate a new European alliance for defense will form, excluding the U.S.


There are LOTS MORE!
Reply #44 Top
And what does the article above have to do with Afghanistan?!?!
Reply #45 Top
When Bush rotates out of office, and someone new comes in, will you sit back and realize how much time and energy you've wasted, how much stress you've caused yourself, over eight years?
Reply #46 Top
When Bush leaves office the damage he has caused this country will continue. How long will the enemies he has created be a security Problem? How many decades will we be paying for his deficits? What will be the price of Gas, and oil because he spent 8 more years not moving forward with an energy policy that works? How many more people will have lost their jobs because of his trade policies? Bush will be with us for a LONG TIME!
Reply #47 Top
The article goes to the overall foreign policy he is following. He never finished the job in Afghanistan and he now has screwed up both countries.
Reply #48 Top
He never finished the job in Afghanistan and he now has screwed up both countries.


And yet they both have their own brand, spanking new democratic governments. Don't count your chickens, col.
Reply #50 Top
We will see if either can move forward without security. The American people have no confidence in Bush in Iraq, the economy, energy or in the handling of Katrina. He is where LBJ was and close to Nixon so far as to the lack of support. by the American People. Bush is luckey the election was not this November!