Kamamura_CZ Kamamura_CZ

Peak oil is upon us!

Peak oil is upon us!

How do you personally feel about our future?

Recently, a Wiki Leaks cable indicated fears that Saudi oil supplies are overestimated by as much as 40 percent.

Global production is on a plateau for some 5 years, and most large, cheapest oil fields are in decline.

Many countries, like China, Indonesia, and notably Egypt stopped exporting oil and started importing.

Jeff Rubin sees the dwindling oil supplies in Egypt as a major reason for the current political changes - the country could not afford to subsidize food anymore, and the regime collapsed.

What are your thoughts?



434,080 views 159 replies
Reply #76 Top

Reply #64
G3mpi3

Member No.3,456,781
Karma+118
April 1, 2011 9:32:33 PM from WinCustomize Forums

Hmm I didn't see this thread until just now. Yes, we're burning through fossil fuels irresponsibly and it will eventually run out. Many of you will be happy to know that we already have tons of alternatives for energy when it comes to automobiles. Just recently, a synthetic oil was made by a professor in oxford that has zero emissions and won't cost more than $2 per gallon when produced.

The only real problem we face is the ability to change. Like I said before, we have the technology, we just need to take the right steps to advance.

 

I would love to have more info on this.  Link?  professors name and college? Thanks

Reply #77 Top

As oil prices go up, other options become economically viable. Higher price point allows alternatives to emerge. No biggie. The Economist regularly runs articles on developments in alternative fuels, as posters have noted everything from carbon capture to algae based plastics and fuels. Some of it is purely speculative, other stuff is being ramped up for commercial production as we speak.

 

To posters earlier in the thread, some dude back in the 50s may have come up with a car part that could have made cars incredibly fuel efficient. That doesn't mean it was commercially viable -- it might have been a bitch to produce in mass quantities, it might have been incredibly dangerous, or it might have just been too expensive to be worth using. Car companies don't make a dime for producing cars that use more oil, but they do now compete on MPG (among other things). There's every reason to believe that if a viable high efficiency element existed, they'd toss it in because it'd give them a HUGE advantage amongst cost conscious consumers.

 

WRT to all the doom and gloom about 'too many people' and 'growth isn't possible', I beg to differ. For one thing, populations have been stabilizing for the past couple of decades; plenty of articles to show that as the odds of a child surviving its earlier years increase and the education (and income) of parents increase, the number of children produced decreases. For another, growth is a function of labor, inputs and productivity. If inputs get more expensive, people will find alternates that work just as well or increase productivity. Both are happening. I mean, you go back a century and it's astounding how much time and effort it took to do something as simple as copy a page of writing. It takes five seconds and a little bit of energy to duplicate it dozens of times now, with each page customized however you want (mail merge ftw?). Same with transporting things from one side of the world to the other. It used to take weeks of travel to cross the Atlantic -- now it's a journey measured in hours. When inputs get more expensive, people use them more efficiently. 

 

Information technology has indeed invalidated a lot of old jobs -- you don't see a bunch of women sitting around in a telephone exchange plugging cords into stuff anymore, do you? Or people making buggy whips, eh? So what. The people who would have worked in the jobs invalidated by a program or a new piece of technology (like, say, cashiers who were replaced by auto-checkout kiosks) aren't doing that anymore. That doesn't mean that they're sitting on their asses! Instead of paying their wages, the company makes a one time capex (on a program or a piece of hardware that someone had to write or build) and spends the rest that they saved on other stuff. And that stuff generates new jobs for all those folks who were previously stuck in jobs that could have been done by a bot are now doing something else, contributing to the economy in some new way.

 

Now I'm sure a whole horde of peeps will be like 'the evil capitalists will use automatons to build everything, and not require any labor, ruling over us with their machine slaves and mountains of money'. Nope. That entrepreneur is gonna have to buy things, sell things and process things. A machine can do a lot of cool things, but there's plenty of stuff you need a human for. Like, say, designing an ad campaign or writing a story or a program or as a lawyer or accountant or handling customers or generally getting any number of other service jobs done. Plenty of factories scaled down their labor force to a tenth of what it was before, and then gave those employees much higher paychecks to manage the machines. More factories, more efficient use of inputs, new inputs and new sectors. I, for one, look forward to a future where 3D printers replace the traditional concept of manufacturing, and people no longer have to sit in a factory somewhere plugging away at dull and unrewarding jobs for the rest of their lives. 

 

The future will be wondrous. 

 

Then there's the folks bitching about government. Surprise, government is slow. It's supposed to be slow, because things work pretty well the way they are, and we the people don't much want them to change at the drop of a hat -- after all, America got to the top of the pile on this system, how likely is it that someone came up with an even better system? Sure, there's some corruption, there's waste, there's idiocy. But if you don't like the guys in office, YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. How? GO VOTE IN A PRIMARY. Primary voters in the United States have enormous power, mostly due to the districting regime we have at present (something California is just now getting rid of, so it's hoped that the rest of the states will ditch it too eventually). Candidates who are members of the dominant party in a district who win the primary for their party tend to win the general election. And since primary voters tend to be nutbags and hardcore insaneocrats, as well as a tiny fraction of the population of the district, the politicians elected tend to represent them and not the moderate sane folks.

 

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, GO VOTE IN A PRIMARY.  Your (hopefully) saner vote can make a huge difference, especially if you get your friends to come along. If you vote for the smart, sane candidates in primaries, you'll get to see them win the general election and enter office with moderate policies that you like. And if candidates see that moderate talk wins primaries that is how they will talk and that is what they will do. 

 

The Tea Party folks aren't dominant because of magic. They're able to control candidates by showing up to primaries and dominating there, and by threatening office holders who don't toe the party line a primary challenge (from a candidate with their support). There's no conspiracy, just democracy in action. And if you don't like it, you need to show up and do something about it. Democracy is about working to make the change you want to see in the world real, not waiting and hoping and moaning on the internet. If you don't work, it won't happen.

 

So if you guys are worried about the future, use the tools the founders and subsequent governments gave you and get to work. 

 

(Note, the Euros are living under all sorts of different systems, where they may or may not be able to mount primary challenges or directly elect favored candidates. SA is all sorts of screwy, and I'm pretty sure that voting in Brazil is 9/10ths crap shoot and list management, specifically using high value low brain vote grabbers to send votes to technocrats, by the parties) 

 

 

 

Quoting tetleytea, reply 68
When someone knows for sure that oil has peaked, please let me know.  I would like to short crude futures.

 

Shorting oil futures as prices rise? Great way to lose all your money. 

Reply #78 Top

Aeon - Wow, you are so wrong. In almost everything you say. Unfortunately, you represent a large crowd of really misinformed people.

As oil prices go up, other options become economically viable. - No, they won't, because producing energy costs energy (not money, surprisingly to economists). As sources with high EROI (oil) were consumed, world moves towards lower-EROI sources. That means to stay on the same energy profit, more has to be produced. The world runs on laws of physics, not economics. No wondrous technology can produce energy from nothing, because the law of energy conservation applies.

WRT to all the doom and gloom about 'too many people' and 'growth isn't possible', I beg to differ.- I bet, because growth dogma is central to your belief system. That however does not mean you are right. Growth is always linked to energy production - when energy production declines, there is no growth. Since supply-demand relation is very tight today (no spare production capacities), any growth attempt will bump into the supply ceiling, and the whole 2008 scenario will repeat itself - commodities shoot up, energy shoot up, then people and businesses go bankrupt, demand destruction, and another round of depression. It's happening right now, in fact.

Most of the growth in the past was not caused by wonderful technologies and human ingenuity, but by good old plundering. The crisis of the Middle Ages was solved by discovering Americas - and the continent was plundered good. Today, West plunders Arabic states for oil, and Asia for cheap slave labor. When influx of these stops, the system will collapse. America uses quarter of global oil production, but has only 2% percent or so of oil reserves. It runs a trade deficit with China worth quarter billion of dollars annually. You call that a democratic state - I call it a fraud and a racket.

Information technology has indeed invalidated a lot of old jobs. - Here's your biggest error. You confuse cause and effect. The cause was the Green revolution - the ability to multiply agricultural output thanks to fossil fuel usage in farm machinery, pesticides and fertilizers. That freed large portion of population from farm work. In future, when fossil fuels will become scarce and food production ceases to be trivial, all these people will have to return to food production (those who won't die to famines and fighting). IT is nice, but only when you are not fainting from hunger and when your electricity grid works. J.R.R Tolkien once said that when people lose contact with the soil and food production, they lose contact with reality - how true he was. The twisted and perverse economic thinking of today is the best example.

Democracy is about working to make the change you want to see in the world real, not waiting and hoping and moaning on the internet. If you don't work, it won't happen. - Democracy? Where? I haven't noticed it really exists in any real country. What you have in US is financial and corporate oligarchy. You perform the "voting ceremony", then subjects with money step in and buy your candidate. Better yet, he already paid for your candidate's campaign, and controls him from the start. He does their bidding, not yours. Obama promised changes, yet his policies are the same as Bush used. Ask yourself why. Your govt is not even able to end the stupid oil company subsidies.

The future will be wondrous. - Yea, keep telling it yourself over and over. Among the ruins of the decaying cities, with constant food shortages, rag-tag bands of people will fight for basic necessities to survive. You know who said "Good times are coming" the last time? George Bush in 2004.

 

 

Reply #79 Top

Kamamura_CZ: It's too bad but you are right in just about everything you say. I hope I'm dead before the really bad stuff happens. I feel bad for my children but there's nothing I can do. That's reality.

Reply #80 Top

Could not agree more Chasbo. What really is a crying shame is that no one with half a brain or even an iota of common sense will believe it. Why? They like the status quo. Fear of change is rampant. But....change is not something you can stop. no one can. You might be able to slow it down but stop it...never. What this world needs is a healthy dose of zero politics!. Politics slows things down too much. Debate the issues to death, do nothing but talk, talk, and talk some more. Screw the damn politics, the debates and all that nonsense and get up off your lazy asses and get shit done! Oh wait.....that makes sense right? Gimme a break. IMO

Reply #81 Top

I want some of what Aeon is on...cuz all is see is moral AND economic decay. Well, for the working class that is. I am sure the rich are happily rockin' on their (our) new-found wealth!

Reply #82 Top

Well you pessimists.

 

What are you doing about it besides whining on internet forums?

 

Facts are no one knows what the future may hold.  No one knows what the next (or last) technological breakthrough will yield.  Oh sure, eventually we will run out of 'magical inventions' to save us from ourselves, but people have been bleating doom and gloom for ever.  Literally.

 

Question remains, if you really believe the load of crap you have swallowed, what are you doing about it?  Cuz from the sounds of things, you should be off the grid learning to farm and arming yourselves for the coming apocalypse.

 

And just because I can.

 

As oil prices go up, other options become economically viable. - No, they won't, because producing energy costs energy (not money, surprisingly to economists). As sources with high EROI (oil) were consumed, world moves towards lower-EROI sources. That means to stay on the same energy profit, more has to be produced. The world runs on laws of physics, not economics. No wondrous technology can produce energy from nothing, because the law of energy conservation applies.

 

Is the widest mark I've seen someone miss the point (probably intentionally though) in a long long time.  Good job with that at least!

Reply #83 Top

Aeon - Wow, you are so wrong. In almost everything you say. Unfortunately, you represent a large crowd of really misinformed people.

As oil prices go up, other options become economically viable. - No, they won't, because producing energy costs energy (not money, surprisingly to economists). As sources with high EROI (oil) were consumed, world moves towards lower-EROI sources. That means to stay on the same energy profit, more has to be produced. The world runs on laws of physics, not economics. No wondrous technology can produce energy from nothing, because the law of energy conservation applies.

WRT to all the doom and gloom about 'too many people' and 'growth isn't possible', I beg to differ.- I bet, because growth dogma is central to your belief system. That however does not mean you are right. Growth is always linked to energy production - when energy production declines, there is no growth. Since supply-demand relation is very tight today (no spare production capacities), any growth attempt will bump into the supply ceiling, and the whole 2008 scenario will repeat itself - commodities shoot up, energy shoot up, then people and businesses go bankrupt, demand destruction, and another round of depression. It's happening right now, in fact.

Most of the growth in the past was not caused by wonderful technologies and human ingenuity, but by good old plundering. The crisis of the Middle Ages was solved by discovering Americas - and the continent was plundered good. Today, West plunders Arabic states for oil, and Asia for cheap slave labor. When influx of these stops, the system will collapse. America uses quarter of global oil production, but has only 2% percent or so of oil reserves. It runs a trade deficit with China worth quarter billion of dollars annually. You call that a democratic state - I call it a fraud and a racket.

Information technology has indeed invalidated a lot of old jobs. - Here's your biggest error. You confuse cause and effect. The cause was the Green revolution - the ability to multiply agricultural output thanks to fossil fuel usage in farm machinery, pesticides and fertilizers. That freed large portion of population from farm work. In future, when fossil fuels will become scarce and food production ceases to be trivial, all these people will have to return to food production (those who won't die to famines and fighting). IT is nice, but only when you are not fainting from hunger and when your electricity grid works. J.R.R Tolkien once said that when people lose contact with the soil and food production, they lose contact with reality - how true he was. The twisted and perverse economic thinking of today is the best example.

Democracy is about working to make the change you want to see in the world real, not waiting and hoping and moaning on the internet. If you don't work, it won't happen. - Democracy? Where? I haven't noticed it really exists in any real country. What you have in US is financial and corporate oligarchy. You perform the "voting ceremony", then subjects with money step in and buy your candidate. Better yet, he already paid for your candidate's campaign, and controls him from the start. He does their bidding, not yours. Obama promised changes, yet his policies are the same as Bush used. Ask yourself why. Your govt is not even able to end the stupid oil company subsidies.

The future will be wondrous. - Yea, keep telling it yourself over and over. Among the ruins of the decaying cities, with constant food shortages, rag-tag bands of people will fight for basic necessities to survive. You know who said "Good times are coming" the last time? George Bush in 2004.

 

 kama... you are so wright about this.   but few people see the truth that the uber-rich, and the uber-corps are controlling most everything.   Why, raising taxes on thse uber rich to get back some fo their ill gotten gains, issn't even mentioned in the press, nor y either party in washington.   Real democracy doesn't exist anymore, we have savage capitalism - and the masses of people, well, we are a commodity to be used, and thrown away - like hotel maids servicing a $3,000 a nite hotel room.

Reply #84 Top

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 82
As oil prices go up, other options become economically viable. - No, they won't, because producing energy costs energy (not money, surprisingly to economists). As sources with high EROI (oil) were consumed, world moves towards lower-EROI sources. That means to stay on the same energy profit, more has to be produced. The world runs on laws of physics, not economics. No wondrous technology can produce energy from nothing, because the law of energy conservation applies.



Is the widest mark I've seen someone miss the point (probably intentionally though) in a long long time. Good job with that at least!

I am not sure what you are talking about here. This point makes a great point, though leaves out some even scarier facts concerning this issue. Let's talk about two alternatives thrown around a lot in recent times, solar panels and bio-diesel. Both of these technologies have been touted as future replacements of oil for our energy needs, yet one does not simply move investments from oil into these alternative energy sources. In fact, with respect to bio-diesel, large amounts of food production must be sacrificed in order to use those organic materials for bio-diesel, which in turn ties consumer food costs to the supply/demand for bio-diesel. This would be economically disastrous for most lower income families as food prices would skyrocket, as high quality farm output would be turned into bio-diesel. In the case of solar panels, large tracts of land would be required for these panel and again it is land currently used for heavy agriculture which would be best for these solar farms. Thus, food prices would also rise as the value of food production would have to compete with the value of energy production.

Reply #85 Top

Try putting the solar panels on the roof, that should cut back on using up land?

Biodiesel would require enormous towers of thin sheets covered with algae. We have to build up, not sprawl.

Remember Frank Lloyd Wright's idea for NYC?

One way or the other, we have to reduce the human population. Drastically. I am afraid of one way or the "other".

Reply #86 Top

Quoting kenata, reply 84

 Let's talk about two alternatives thrown around a lot in recent times, solar panels and bio-diesel. Both of these technologies have been touted as future replacements of oil for our energy needs, yet one does not simply move investments from oil into these alternative energy sources.

 

One doesn't?  Why the hell not?  Maybe you meant 'quickly' or something, but sheesh, how did we wind up with all (most) our eggs in one basket in the first place?  And for what it's worth, neither of those is touted as being a sole replacement for oil (or other energy, see below).  Well other than by people crackpottier than the drill baby drill crowd.

 

Quoting kenata, reply 84
In fact, with respect to bio-diesel, large amounts of food production must be sacrificed in order to use those organic materials for bio-diesel, which in turn ties consumer food costs to the supply/demand for bio-diesel. This would be economically disastrous for most lower income families as food prices would skyrocket, as high quality farm output would be turned into bio-diesel.

 

Right, because that's the only way it could be done.  There's no alternative to just mass converting every farm on the planet to making biodiesel.  I don't know why it is, but you pessimists really don't seem to be able to think anything through very well.  Leaping off of whatever precipice you see in front of you.  Doesn't sound like fun, but who am I to judge.

 

Quoting kenata, reply 84
In the case of solar panels, large tracts of land would be required for these panel and again it is land currently used for heavy agriculture which would be best for these solar farms. Thus, food prices would also rise as the value of food production would have to compete with the value of energy production.

 

Again, why is it that you only can do these things one way?  Who is advocating covering huge tracts of land with solar panels?  Hell solar has shit to do with oil anyway the common corollary for solar is coal.  Why does no one care about peak coal???

 

Yes I'm being a dick, and this is a very important issue.  Try to remember that the next time you spout some doomsday nonsense based off of something Al Gore probably dribbled out of his ass.

Reply #87 Top

Lol...

 

This just popped into my inbox...

 

Hi All:

 

On May 5/23 and Tuesday 5/24 I will be hosting three visitors from The University of Alberta: Profs. Jacob Masliyah, Zhenghe Xu, and Subir Bhattacharjee.  They constitute a world renowned research group in the area of Oil Sands processing. They are engaged in multiscale, multidisciplinary research  aiming at increasing the efficiency while reducing the environmental footprint of Oil Sands processing. I am hoping to be able to initiate a productive interaction between this group and interested {place where I work} scientists and managers working, or interested in related areas. The initial format of this 2-days visit is:

 

:)

Reply #88 Top

Interesting recent links:

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-time-is-short-now-that-were-past-peak-oil-2011-5

Moreover, Venezuela issued s statement that oil export is no longer a priority - because supply starts to lag behind demand and they can choose the buyer (so the old complacent tale of "they need us, cause they have to sell to us" crumbles). Similarly, Russia finished its pipelines to China and Europe might soon see itself in a painful situation to compete with China, who has coffers of dollars who lose value fast.

I recently heard an interesting theory - Lybia was attacked because Gaddafi started to use all the dollars he got for oil for gold - and he is problably not alone. This triggered the recent gold price rise. Also, Iran is targetted by US invoked sanctions because it started to trade oil for other currencies (trivia question - who was the first to dare do such a think? Is he still alive?). Recently, US diplomacy blocked Indian payments for Iran oils through German banks.

So USA is fighting an already lost battle for the petrodollar dominance. Interesting times are coming indeed.

Reply #89 Top

The main problem with peak oil is the rising of energy prices. It is ridiculous how much modern society is based off insanely cheap energy from oil. If energy prices rise than everything from transportation, to heating and cooling rises in price as well. Since in the modern economy basically everything is transported half way across the world absolutely everything we buy would rise in price from higher oil prices. Even rent and food would climb in price. This increase in basic costs would cause some businesses to become unsustainable, and jobs would be lost as businesses close and cut costs to deal with increased expenses. What business doesn't use heating, rent, or gas.... 

Sure as oil prices go up we can more easily substitute using green technology but that won't really reduce energy prices. Green technology is a patch not a cure, oil is just ridiculously cheap and we are addicted to it. All current green tech has problems. Bio fuels are already blamed for the increase in food prices. Basic economic law states that as supply of something shrinks it's price goes up. When you dedicate more land to bio fuels there is less for food, and as the current surge in food prices has shown there really isn't a lot of usable land laying around for a increase in food production. Solar and wind are great ways to reduce our dependance but they can't replace cheap oil, they are too expensive. Besides a massive investment in pretty much all our capital would be needed to make planes, factories, ships etc run on solar or wind, and would require battery technology we simply don't have. No the only green technology that could work to replace cheap oil would be cold fusion, and I wouldn't hold my breath.

Energy prices are what really matters, if they don't stay low then the world will feel a lot of pain.

Reply #90 Top

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 86
Again, why is it that you only can do these things one way? Who is advocating covering huge tracts of land with solar panels? Hell solar has shit to do with oil anyway the common corollary for solar is coal. Why does no one care about peak coal???

No one said there is only one way to do things, but we should not simple ignore significant problems because we might be able to inflate another finite resource. People are not "concerned" with coal, because there is currently something like 150 years worth of proven coal deposits in the world. While this sounds like a significant amount of coal, people should be very concerned about coal production. Like oil, it is a finite resources and will be in the same position as Oil within the next 50-70 years. However, the process of getting coal is far more environmentally damaging than oil production and would result in significant ecological problems for humans.

Shadowtongue, this is not a doomsday conversation at all, but with respect to energy and energy production, economics is a poor method of understanding the current crisis. While you seem to completely ignore my previous point, I will state it very clearly so that you can understand. Land is finite, Almost all non-oil based energy production takes land, competition between land for energy v food would have significant effects on most humans.

Reply #91 Top

Quoting kenata, reply 90

No one said there is only one way to do things, but we should not simple ignore significant problems because we might be able to inflate another finite resource. People are not "concerned" with coal, because there is currently something like 150 years worth of proven coal deposits in the world. While this sounds like a significant amount of coal, people should be very concerned about coal production. Like oil, it is a finite resources and will be in the same position as Oil within the next 50-70 years. However, the process of getting coal is far more environmentally damaging than oil production and would result in significant ecological problems for humans.

 

Indeed, my point, why is no one concerned about coal?  It's far more environmentally damaging than oil, it's far more dangerous to even mine than it is to drill for oil.  Instead we get this silly bleat about peak oil which no one can really define, because technological (and just finding more of it) advancements keep on pushing it out.  Look, I'm all for reducing the reliance on oil, I'm all for expanding into multiple different energy sources, and or, even just reducing energy consumption generally (ha! fat chance on that one though).  I'm not for doing it based off of some fallacious interpretation of the dangers of peak oil.  We already tried that nonsense with global warming (now dubbed climate change) and it just sputtered going back and forth as both sides beat on each other pointlessly.  Unsubstantiated scare tactics don't work.

 

Quoting kenata, reply 90
Shadowtongue, this is not a doomsday conversation at all, but with respect to energy and energy production, economics is a poor method of understanding the current crisis. While you seem to completely ignore my previous point, I will state it very clearly so that you can understand. Land is finite, Almost all non-oil based energy production takes land, competition between land for energy v food would have significant effects on most humans.

 

Oh, you very much paint it as doomsday with your concerns.  And there you go again... land is finite, competition between land for energy and land for food...

 

Yeesh, I think you're the one ignoring the larger points about that issue.  And at the same time ignoring the fact that in the age we live in technology is far from static.  This isn't the 1700s!  Now, of course, no one can promise that we will solve all our problems through technology, but it's equally foolish to think that we will make no advancements either.  Of course in the west what is most necessary is to improve the education of the population as to the real costs of their lifestyles, such that we can address the issue from both the supply and demand ends.  Oh noes, that's economics though, and it doesn't apply apparently.

 

Mostly what I see in this thread is a lot of hand wringing about how terrible the world is, and that economies are going to crash as oil prices rise.  Yet no one making a contribution to what the solution is.  Rather, 'there is no solution, because energy=land=food'.  So what even is the point then?  Just pessimists being pessimists?  If you really believed this was coming any time soon (which I have to imagine you don't) then you shouldn't be wasting your time on the internet should you?  You should be stockpiling for armageddon or working to solve the problem.  I can tell you which of those two options I'm taking.

Reply #92 Top

The German chancellor have made one of the dumbest decisions in modern times. Angela Merkel of the German treehuggerparty environmentalists will shut down ALL of Germanys nuclear powerplants to 2020!

Another bad thing?   She pulled that stunt to be able to stay in power!   One of the worst examples of populism I've EVER seen!!   It's beyond facepalming. I just became scared of the future.

 

So what does this have to do with Peak Oil?   Lots!   Germany is an industrynation and as such, need cheap electricity to power their industries warmachine


But with no more cheap nuclear power, the industries will have to raise their prices which will make Germans buy imported stuff or buy less which in turn leads to some industries closing and Germany is one more step to becoming a 2ndworld country.

On the plusside, it might stop the tide of immigrants which will go elsewhere (but if they still go to Europe it's just as bad....)

Reply #93 Top

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 91
Yeesh, I think you're the one ignoring the larger points about that issue. And at the same time ignoring the fact that in the age we live in technology is far from static. This isn't the 1700s! Now, of course, no one can promise that we will solve all our problems through technology, but it's equally foolish to think that we will make no advancements either. Of course in the west what is most necessary is to improve the education of the population as to the real costs of their lifestyles, such that we can address the issue from both the supply and demand ends. Oh noes, that's economics though, and it doesn't apply apparently.

This is a fundamental problem with many people. Yes, we as a society make overall technological advancements, but trying to make resource scarcity a meaningless point by simply pointing at these advancements borders on insane.

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 91
there is no solution, because energy=land=food

This is a hilarious exaggeration of the points I was making. I didn't say there was no solution, just that the main scenarios, brought up by the media and many government officials as a potential solution to our oil concerns, would have significant effects on resources that are general and inflexible needs of humans as a whole. Any solution which puts our food supply at risk is not even worth discussing.


As for your point about solutions, there are several very good solutions to our oil concerns. Firstly, we should move away from the use of plastics and promote research into non-oil based materials. Secondly, we should begin to fit all buildings the size of single family homes or larger with wind mills. Large office buildings and other commerical structures would not be self sufficent but the additional power could easily save enough for maintenance and other costs. Thirdly, We should promote the creation and maintenance of tidal generators especially in areas know for their powerful waves and currents.  Lastly, we should promote the creation and maintenance of high yield geothermal power facilities. While these facilities would require space, much of that space would be underground and could be built such to minimize its surface land requirements to be negligible.

Reply #94 Top

Quoting kenata, reply 93


This is a fundamental problem with many people. Yes, we as a society make overall technological advancements, but trying to make resource scarcity a meaningless point by simply pointing at these advancements borders on insane.

Um, who has tried to do that?  You continue to ignore the point, so be it, I'll stop bothering with it myself.

 

Quoting kenata, reply 93

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 91there is no solution, because energy=land=food

This is a hilarious exaggeration of the points I was making. I didn't say there was no solution, just that the main scenarios, brought up by the media and many government officials as a potential solution to our oil concerns, would have significant effects on resources that are general and inflexible needs of humans as a whole. Any solution which puts our food supply at risk is not even worth discussing.

 

Again, it's not an exaggeration, it's damn near verbatim what you have been blathering.  Not until your last post have you offered any alternatives, up until now it's been entirely doomcalling.  That and you persist with this absolute attitude.  Not useful, because you don't appear to have a clue about what you're actually scared of, since you know, no one is advocating any of the boogie men you keep on throwing up.

 

Quoting kenata, reply 93
As for your point about solutions, there are several very good solutions to our oil concerns. Firstly, we should move away from the use of plastics and promote research into non-oil based materials. Secondly, we should begin to fit all buildings the size of single family homes or larger with wind mills. Large office buildings and other commerical structures would not be self sufficent but the additional power could easily save enough for maintenance and other costs. Thirdly, We should promote the creation and maintenance of tidal generators especially in areas know for their powerful waves and currents.  Lastly, we should promote the creation and maintenance of high yield geothermal power facilities. While these facilities would require space, much of that space would be underground and could be built such to minimize its surface land requirements to be negligible.

 

I like these ideas generally, but they also have their issues.  Moving away from plastics is great, but what are we replacing them with?  Seems you might need to think along the lines of your land = food philosophy on this one.

 

Windmills on every home?  Well this is not an urban solution (as you noted, sort of), and a mere drop in the bucket, but hell, why not start somewhere?  Couple in solar as well?

 

Tidal generators are not really that viable right now, nor do they help much (drop in the bucket as well), but it's a worthwhile technology to continue to invest in.

 

Geothermal is a cool idea, but still not particularly practical on a large scale, and underground?  Well the size you need would make that a rather big scrape to dig out to put it in in the first place.  And you think people freak about nuclear?  Think how they'll freak when the crazies get ahold of how many earthquakes and volcanoes geothermal is going to cause...

 

The biggest gain we can get is from conservation over trying to patch together some network of smaller systems.  We need improved education, we need improved willingness to conserve.  Jack up usage rates past a certain threshold and see what does to cut back on at least electricity demand (which is largely what your solutions address, other than cutting back on plastics).  Do the same for water while we're at it.

Reply #96 Top

Perhaps reducing the number of humans...never mind...

Reply #97 Top

Opec fails to raise production according to previous proclamations. 

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/todays-paper/prices+rise+OPEC+supply+concerns/4917943/story.html

Last years, documents from Wikileaks showed US diplomats fearing Saudi Arabia supply reports may be inflated by as much as 40%. So the world is coming to a realization that the promised Saudi excess supply capacity just never existed.

Reply #99 Top

May I make an observation not about the issue of 'peak oil' or peak energy' but rather about one consequence of relativly cheap oil (energy)?

Leeovold... 'reducing the number of humans"  said, hopefully, tongue firmly planted in cheek, is correct.  Population growth is tied to cheap energy production (oil- mostly).  The more food we produce, the more people can be fed.  The total population goes up.   Cheap oil (-> cheap fertilizer -> more food prodiction)+(cheap transportaion of food to locations that cant' or don't grow enough) = overall population growth.  Therefore, as long as food supply keeps increasing, population will also increase.  This is a 'race' that cannot be won by science, technology, or cheap energy.  As long as much of this 'cheap energy' is converted into ever increasing amounts of human bio mass (more people) the gap will always close.  (Supply and demand?) 

We have to live somewhere.  At what point does the ever expandng bio mass of Humans become enough of the total biomass on earth that species sustainability, viability, and variation collapases?  Perhaps this is a fantasy, or nightmare, that will never materialize (smile!).  Perhaps earth can do fine as a "Tantor" - a world wide city with a few spaces reserved for our factory-farms of cows / chickens/feed stuff.  Just our food made in hybrid animal-factories, us, and mud.  We are on a train headed in this direction.  And the train is accelerating even as you read this.  One consequence of this is the ever increasing encroacment of the human biome on everything else.  Non human species' extinction is now at historicaly record levels... and we have done it without dropping a meteor onto the Yauckatan ((sp?)).  (Note: That event - probably- killed off the dinosaur age, and set the enviornment to one that allowed mammals, and flowering plants to take center stage.)

Many (most?) of the tricks/techniques used in technology have come from exploring 'mother nature.'   When the entire biomass of earth consists of humans and our food-factories, what then?  Where will we find the varied 'experients' of 'mother nature' from which to learn?  Mono-agriculture is very suseptable to various 'threats.'  (Historical aside:  Mono-economies (cf Thomas jefferson) are very susseptable to outside domination.)

Somebody wrote, earlier in this thread that they were concerned for their children, but did not see anything they could do right now.  I feel this way, sometimes, as well.  Why?  Glad you asked.  Consider:  The Island, known in Western circles as "Easter Island" was, before the big, wooden sailing ships of the Europeans began 'discovering' everyone else, an almost totally isolated island (humanly speaking).  Somehow, a group of humans landed there and began building a civilization.  They expanded.  They built.  They learned to grow more food, and fish the seas more effectivly.  They cut down the trees, thay planted more crops.  The people expanded to fill in all available space.  So they cut down more trees, farmed more land, hunted the animals almost to extinction.  And they ate the additional food and the population increased in numbers.    Also, at some point, they began drawing more nutrients out of the soil than they returned to that soil.

I am sure they were a good people - as good, and honorable, and charitable, and concerned as any of us, today. I am not being sarcastic. But when they had depleted the resources on the island, and being isolated from any other land, they descended into the same behaviors almost all humans, of every race and faith, and throughout all human history have: They broke into competing groups.  They preyed on each other even as they prayed for one another. And when they had finally killed 'their' island, they reluctantly returned their bio-mass to the soil - they starved to death. 

Just as Easter island was, at that time, a relativly self contained eco-system - at least as far as humans were concerend - so, too is the planet earth.  I would not put my hope in ET showing up to bail us out, nor would I put my hope in the discovery of endless, cheap energy.  Why?  First, cheap energy just means more food production, which will be used by some portion of humanity to 'expand' their population.  Also, even if the Club of Rome's computer generated projections (The Limits to Growth) are correct - it will be a nasty world for most of us.   They projected (in the early 1970's i think) that the human population will begin leveling off somewhere in the 2050' or 2060's.  ( This is from memory.. and that seems  a long time ago...)  But even if more cheap renewable energy is 'discovered' or 'invented'  one primary result will be producing even more food  And this surplus food will increase the total human population ceiling.  Its a war that cannot be won unless human population is capped in some other way.  And with the various fundementalist faiths hell bent on using their increased population growth to convert/conquer other nations via immigration, or just fulfill the command of g-d to be fruitful, multiply, and subdue the earth... the food side will always be consumed.  No matter how much more food is 'made,' population will grow to consume it.  

So, even if the marvels of science create cheap, renewable energy, the population side will, (very probably) consume it -converting ever higher percentages of earths's bio mass into Homo homo Sapiens.  Food-factories will expand, and get even more 'efficient.'  Eventually, the mono-food/factories will probably get nailed by a 'threat' for which we are unprepared - in part, because the billions of experiments 'mother nature' used to do in the enviornment and now gone.  We 'extinct-ed' them (if I can make up a word... LOL). 

 Next stop: Planet Easter (Island). Everybody disembark here.  Last stop.