People are starting to talk about the "P" word, Pollution.  But they don't talk about the "P" word, Population.  It's like you're allowed to talk about clean, renewable energy, but you aren't allowed to talk about clean, renewable, sustainable and non-wrecking population (ie. limiting and reducing population).  I'm afraid there will be a mass population crash, sooner or later.  It is inevitable as Population is growing exponentially, but food growth can't.

People seem to think it is their right to have as many children as they want and not use birth control.  But if we humans don't enforce population control and reduce population by ourselves, I'm afraid Earth will have no choice but to begrudgingly and horrifically put its foot down and enforce it on us.

I've got to the point when I'm strongly considering not having any children.

Best regards,
Steven.

One of the reasons Europeans left their homelands was because of population pressure. Science brilliantly taught us that our world is really nothing more than a lucky rock adrift in space, circling a common star, filled with expoitable resources. Places on Earth that were once held as sacred or at least beautiful were mentally transformed into mere commodities. To be converted into buildings or energy. Rather than fostering a good soil base for our farms, we learned to excavate (destroy) other parts of the planet for their minerals.

Well, we have now reached a point where there is no room to grow (fundamental tenent of capitalism) nor are there cheap and abundant resources any longer.

Entropy. Time to pay for our foolishness.

Homo sultus - the cosmic destroyer!

Fallen Enchantress makes me think that in our future we might find ourselves wondering around avoiding a scary world not full of monsters, but rather radiation and pollution.

Doesn't matter if what kills you is mythical or mundane. Death is dying.

(sorry)

Yet, despite what looks likely to happen, we still need to live our day to day, moment to moment lives the best we can.  We can't worry about what we can't control, but living our lives honestly, fairly and lovingly and being in the moment as much as we can is truly a worthwhile goal for all of us, IMO.

Best regards,
Steven.

JoDa.. thanks.. I was not aware of this gentleman, nor the group he discussed.  Thanks for a new resource to exploit... err (JK)  seriously, thank you for a new resource to read, and discuss, and think about.... and perhaps glean effective ideas to help my little corner of the world...

I do agree a new economic model is needed.  Just not sure what...

Hi Steven,  what you right about living in the moment - it  is something i am learning about now...  almost 60, i am a such a slow learner, and wasted so much time... i guess...

I also feel and think we (humans) do need to do something to be pro-active about the collision course we are on with our little island earth.  Struggling for a balance...   perhaps i am wrong to feel that I (and we) might do something to ameolriate the worst affects?  Perhaps not?  I struggle with it. 

A funny way to term religious persecution, but sure, 'one of the reasons'. 

Ludite much?  What do you mean anyway, 'fostering a good soil base', as if that's not done anywhere?  Not done enough for you?  Not done enough in Africa?  Your statement is far to general to be particularly valid outside of whatever anecdotal evidence you want to present.

Ahh, people are the resource now.  And there's plenty of room to grow really, but there's too many people growing in the wrong places maybe.

I don't know what any of that means.  Entropy?  I know the definition, not sure how it's going to make us pay for anything.  Homo sultus?  Meaningless, did you mean Homo stultus?  Destroying the cosmos?  Through stupidity...

Oh boy... more doomcalling based on what?  Someones impression that the only thing humans are good for is blowing each other up with nukes apparently (because yah, all the nuke plants in the planet melting down isn't going to do what you seem to think it's going to do, if I read you correctly).

What's the point of blathering all this 'we are screwed' nonsense over and over?  Where do you even get this crap from?  Is there anyone here who's actually studied any of these issues beyond reading some 'scientific' opinion pieces in the NY times?  Bah, I guess I'm just far too much of an optimist, or you all have watched too many apocalypse movies and started thinking they were documentaries.

Swedes left Sweden because of poverty. In 1850 my country was very poor. People starved and thus 1/3rd of my people left for America. One town there was even called Swedetown

My country also got lots of room and large parts of it are deserted so we never had a big population even though a family had like 10 kids back then

Dear Shadowtongue,

Oh boy... more doomcalling based on what?  Someones impression that the only thing humans are good for is blowing each other up with nukes apparently (because yah, all the nuke plants in the planet melting down isn't going to do what you seem to think it's going to do, if I read you correctly).

What's the point of blathering all this 'we are screwed' nonsense over and over?  Where do you even get this crap from?  Is there anyone here who's actually studied any of these issues beyond reading some 'scientific' opinion pieces in the NY times?  Bah, I guess I'm just far too much of an optimist, or you all have watched too many apocalypse movies and started thinking they were documentaries.

I did not say humans were ONLY good for blowing things up, it's only the evil powermongers who place power and wealth above humanity and ecology. I am not sure if you have ever read much history in your time, but it's been largely about large groups of people murdering each other for material/land aquisition. Remember the crusades, WW1, WW2, War against Terror that is bankrupting us now? And do you know we are busy now in our dark elven laboratories designing robots for our next wave of mass murder.

I misspelled Homo stultus - that means Man the fool. I feel we are more foolish than intelligent. Sorry. I am not an optimist like you. Congratulations on your philosophy, wish I was happy with the state of affairs and fate or Mankind at large and our planets as it is being polluted and ravaged.

What's the point of blathering all this 'we are screwed' nonsense over and over? 

Because I care. I guess you are living in bliss my friend. Perhaps you are content with every technological stride made by our species. I am not.

You called me a Ludite. I am somewhat. I guess you could call me "Green".

No, there is no more room in this world for more humans. Half of India lives in dire poverty. Africa is in misery. Etc.

In conclusion, when I look into my metaphorical cystal ball I see more suffering and decay. What do you peer into, the television?

Evil powermongers are evil!  *Yawn*  been hearing that one for decades, maybe I'm not the one who needs the history lessons though.  All these wars you mention, horrible affairs, stupid and pointless affairs, but having to do with what exactly?  Oh, the arguments are always the same, resources, land, power...

Meh I know better, the underlying reasons, but I'm not going to derail this thread into that debate.  Because it's not germane anyway.

Robots!  You do watch too many movies I think.  Oh robots are inevitable, hell drones are already in use, but there's more to it than just the MIC spending all your money on new toys to kill people with.  Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe Surrogates is just around the corner, or SkyNet, or whatever the hell idiocy you seem to believe in.  Let me guess, you think there are aliens at Area 51 too?

The reason you're not happy (in my unimportant opinion) is because you are uneducated.  Note, I'm not calling you stupid.  You don't seem to have the required knowledge to form anything other than some bizzaro reality derived from too much fantasy (fiction) consumption.  Not hard to see in your prose either.  Elves, myths, crystal balls ... the lingo is there, any semblance of understanding of the actual issues does not appear to be.

Oh, but you 'care', and by contrast I suppose I don't?  That's funny, since I'm actually working in a field and at a laboratory trying to help make things better, trying to 'solve' (though that's far too grand a prospect for little ol' me) problems related to nuclear power as well as eventually fussion.  Oh noes, then, I'm part of the problem I guess, I'm part of the conspiracy.  Talk is cheap though, moreso on a pointless internet forum.  At least though I know what I'm doing about the problems, I know that I care, I know that I (will hopefully) make a difference.  I know what Greens are, and I'm one of them.  I know that the world can hold more people, even if India cannot.  But what's your solution to that?  WWIII probably.

So keep on looking into your imaginary crystal balls, and keep on watching/reading bad sci-fi and dreaming that it will become reality so that you can be 'right' about how shitty everyones life must be.  I'll keep on peering into my microscopes and instruments and actually work to make a real difference to the problems (well some of them anyway) facing the world.

Stop bitching, start doing.  This thread is just so full of asshats who think they know everything (myself included no doubt) yet do absolutely nothing (myself most definitely not included).  And spare me the 'I'm doing my part by educating people on the internet'.  That absolutly the most fucking retarded thing anyone can do.  Unless you can link to your blog, or contributions to a scientific/political site, just spouting off random garbage on the Elemental forums?  Well if it's done for entertainment purposes, then I suppose you've succeeded.

Population is not even being talked about, which means we won't do anything about it.  But that doesn't mean that we can't live the best life we can, and still be honourable and caring.  But I'm afraid the world would be very badly off if we had one less billion on it, let alone what we have now.  I would encourage individual people to think very seriously on minimising their effect on the earth, and if at all possible, seriously limit the number of children you have (or have none).  Earth has the last word about whether we are doing a good job of minimising population.  If democracy won't keep things in check, population limits will.  But it is possible to live in and value precious moments and people the best we can.

Best regards,
Steven.

I  know that the world can hold more people, even if India cannot.  But what's your solution to that?  WWIII probably.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And yet, poverty is on the rise, war is on the rise, we now have the X-39B is it? Autonomous mini-space shuttle that was siezed from NASA by the Air Force. It can stay in space, without humans, for 9 months.

Apparantly your ability to reason and argue is suspect. Very much so. Why would you think that I, one who obviouly abhors war, would think that MY solution to all the World's problems would be WW3?

Explain yourself.

And keep heroically solving the world's problems. Get over yourself buddy.

This type of statement is completely insulting, both to us posting in this thread and to the millions of people across the world who have been horribly misled[1]. The point of this thread is not to "educate the denizens of the internet" but to bounce ideas of a variety of people to help formulate both a better understanding of the issue as well as the various groundings for its argument. Yet, your posts do not seem to lend themselves to a person who is actually doing something to actually make the world a better place, but instead to someone who is actually discouraging natural and health dialogues in favor of a social/political ideology which may or may not be correct. Calling individuals with a distinct point of view "Doom Sayers" does not prove your ideology, nor does hypocritically requesting links and citations to facts which prove a statement when you have done nothing of the sort in any of your posts. Peak Oil is a serious issue, whether the solution is readily available or not. It is a topic that deserves discussion and serious consideration from all people. Whether you agree with the analysis or not, attacking individuals directly is worse than "just spouting off random garbage" as you are doing absolutely nothing of value.

I back kenata here. Shadowtongue your being illogical and quite frankly insulting in what seems to me to be a juvenile attempt to force your opinion on others by denouncing them and yelling very loudly. I suggest you take a step back and analyze why you are acting that way, because it's obviously not an attempt at logical argument.

I'm going to assume you're talking about the X-37, as X-39 hasn't been assigned to any projects at the moment . "Siezed" is an interesting choice of word, as that is not what happened. NASA developed the original X-37A, which was eventually transferred to DARPA. Later, the Air Force decided to further develop the X-37A into the X-37B. The X-37B is still being worked on jointly by both the Air Force and NASA. DARPA is still working on something independently with the X-37A.

Yep, X-37B it is you got me! Point is the money was used under the false pretense that it would be a human shuttle with small cargo capacity. Now - it's top secret and I do believe INTERNATIONALLY illegal. I would imagine, Kyorgre12, you are aware that we will have no means of taking humans into space by our own nation. How does that grab you? Ya fine with that? And yet, we have close to a trillion dollars a year on military - bases in 3/4 of the nations of Earth, 16 Intelligence agencies, children and babies groped at airports, frightening weather patterns, we are running out of fresh water, soils, fisheries are declining, plants are being designed to no longer self-seed, etc. Too tired to go into it all. Way to tired.

And please, let's not get personal and vulgar here.

We CAN repair the damage we have done you know. We are still evolving.

Peace. To all of you Elementalists!

The X-37 was never claimed to be a human shuttle. The NASA version was originally going to be carried into space by the Space Shuttle. It was basically a testbed for technology to be used in the Orion Crew Capsule. The Air Force (top secret) version is apparently has a similar purpose, but tests different technology. The X-37B is only illegal internationally if it is weaponized or is used to carry weapons into space. Despite claims to the contrary, there is little evidence that it is being used for such activities (although it is top secret).

I will admit that I am disappointed that successor to the Space Shuttle is not already in place. However, I do not think it is a significant cause for alarm as others do (also, until Atlantis is retired in July, we technically do still have the capability to send humans into orbit). The Shuttle was long overdue for retirement, and despite the program's impressive accomplishments, it failed to live up to original potential. Also, when it comes to space exploration, robots are generally superior to humans (and much cheaper).

Ok yeah we got another month, then we pay Russia to get our guys to the ISS that American taxpayers have built. Sounds to me like we have been financially plundered by the Banksters, our jobs sent to communist china - home of sweat shops and corporate slavery, not to mention India - land of poverty, where humans are generally paid far less than back home. And there are untold multitudes that work as slaves, including children. As a result, millions of Americans are not permanently jobless. We have spent trillions on wars to supposedly protect our homeland but have allowed millions of illegal aliens to invade and overburden our welfare system. And these poor folks will work hard. For cheap. Nice plan.

And by the way, if the Air Force is in control of the X37, it is not for peaceful purposes. Don't be absurd to state otherwise.

 http://presscore.ca/nbg/index.php?entry=entry100428-214754 

I am done with this. Let's just hope that one day our specie figures out a better method of Planetary Management. Because so far we are failing dismally. IMO.

Take care

You're forgeting about private companies...

EDIT: That "I" in ISS stands for International, as in other countries helped pay for and maintain the ISS.

Did I say it was for peaceful purposes? I said that it didn't have weapons, which is what it would have to have to be "internationally illegal." Also, I suggest that you look at some of the other experimental aircraft the Air Force has been involved with. You'll note that many of them do not have weapons, and were in fact used for testing purposes. The X-1 was the first airplane to break the sound barrier. The X-15 is the world's fastest manned aircraft. The X-48 is used to test blended wing designs for future aircraft. The X-55 tests composite materials for uses in cargo airplanes. The point is, just because the Air Force is involved doesn't mean it is some (to quote the article you provided) "first strike military spacecraft."

It should also be noted that PRESS Core is a terrible, terrible source of information, with articles about all sorts of insane things not backed up by fact. The article you linked failed to give any sources for any of its claims.

All I want to day is that you are free to think as you will. You and I will be gone soon enough. It's our descendants that will suffer. They will have to survive in a state of energic diminution. They will pay heavily for their filthy water, breathe polluted air, eat genetically mutated food, suffer carcinogens, bear deformed children, and unless they are sufficiently bright, life will consist of ceaseless servitude.

You know, like it was before the rise of the middle class in the age of reason. This is the age of terror so I guess it's a future worth creating (as they say).

Enjoy!

If the deficit ceiling bill (or some deficit ceiling bill) doesn't get passed soon, and China downgrades our debt, we'll be in a serious crash. I'd advise moving money (or what passes for it) into gold/silver.

OT, but what the heck. 

Meh, then you understood it.  Good.

Oh spare me.  The majority of the posts were about how doomed we are.  What exactly was anyone saying about 'solutions' until I actually pointed out that no one was talking about them.  Indeed, people were just slamming solar and biofuel (and not unjustly) without offering up a damn alternative.

Right, because posts will make the world a better place.  As opposed to getting a PhD in a relevant field and then working in that field.

Again, until I pointed out that there was no dialogue, just a bunch of meaningless hand wringing driven by inaccurate understanding of the actual time frame for peak oil, the only things being said were 'we're screwed'.  So stop pretending you're leading some asinine internet crusade to have a discussion to solve the issue of peak oil through dialogues with people who play the same game(s).

I'm not trying to prove a damn thing.  That's your problem, proving that the problem is as you say it is.  And so I called a spade a spade, oh well.

Again, because I'm not trying to prove anything.  You are asking me to prove a negative, silly that.  I'm asking you to base your claims in facts and evidence.  Hey, maybe you're right, so just show it.  Else... yeah, we're all just spouting crap on the internet.

Oh hell.  It does not deserve discussion from all people.  It deserves discussion from people who have some basis for understanding it.  You want my 5 year old to discuss it?  And disucssion... not just saying 'we're screwed'.  Yeah, we may be, but just saying it isn't discussion, it's pointless.  I'm not attacking individuals either.  I'm attacking empty rhetoric.  If happen to spew some then you may feel attacked.  Educate your self and it won't be an issue.  Because even if I disagree with your view at least you'll have used some facts or evidence to support it.

Is that too difficult to understand?  Pot meet kettle?  Nothing of value in this thread whatsoever, I would be pressed to agree with you.  Problem is, I'm not trying to make value claims, I'm trying to get you to stop being lazy and actually do some work.  Real work, not this 'having a discussion on the internet in a game forum' crap.  Really I wouldn't even bother with this thread at all if not for the number of posts from people just bitching about how bad everything is, or is going to be.  And when someone offers an alternative they get shouted down, you know, because we're screwed anyway, and you just know that this time we can't dig ourselves out of the hole.  That's biting analysis, based on nothing but some useless Gorian propaganda I would imagine.

If I'm wrong then prove me wrong.

War is on the rise?  Compared to when?  Yesterday?  Last year?  A decade ago?  A century ago?  Poverty is on the rise?  Again, compared to when?  Compared to what?  Oh sure, poverty is an issue, one which needs to be dealt with, and population control is one way to do it.  So you say, my question is how?  It's not really a practical solution, that's the point.  And if it's a necessary solution?  How are you going to do it?  Just words from you, words with no sense behind them.  Problems need solutions, solutions need people to work on them.  What part of the process are you?  Seems you're just another nobody who can tell everyone what's wrong with everything, but can't do a damn thing to help fix or change it.  No?  Prove me wrong.

I work in a field of chemisty related to nuclear power.  We work to improve the safety and yield of fuels.  It's not going to solve the worlds problems, but at least it's something (and directly related to the original point of this thread, energy consumption).  What do you do again?  Whine on internet forums?  Hows that helping anything?  Well that's not fair, you're helping to entertain me I suppose.

Thank you for your concern.  It is misplaced, but I appreciate it none the less.

Oh and, doom sayer much?

lol...

You guys crack me up.

Shadowtongue, are you an agent of Sauron? You sound like an evil, gutless,heartless, social misfit. You obviously could care less about the misfortunes of the suffering, and bow before the altar of Lord Technology. Or do you worship Molech?

Stop attacking people and get a life. Most of us are here to talk mostly about the game and this subject is indeed a prominent issue affecting us all. Peak Oil is THE reason for all the wars in the middle east. And those wars, along with the Federal Reserve's crushing debt, are ruining this nation (well, not the rich military industrial shareholders like you).

Get some love in your life. Might I suggest a nice Amazon chick?

Flamewars aside, do you watch the current developments on the oil market?

Recently, IEA (International Energy Agency) begged OPEC to increase production quota. The resulting OPEC meeting ended up with an argument and failure - while Saudi Arabia, as an obedient US puppet regime agreed to the increase, reading between the lines, the OPEC members are producing as much as they can - and don't want to admit that. Saudi Arabia said it will step up and increase production to fill the gap created by the missing Lybian supply - but guess what, they did not increase the production. Many believe that their spare production capacities are gone and they are unable to do so.

After that, IEA invited Russia (the only significant non-OPEC producer) to join, seeking another way to increase oil market supply:

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Russia-Invited-to-Join-the-IEA.html

And yesterday, IEA announced it will release 60 millions of barrels from its reserve:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-23/iea-will-release-60-million-barrels-of-oil-in-emergency-offset-from-libya.html

This is an unprecedented step, and extremely desperate too. This amount is of course too small to seriously affect anything long-term - it's about 16 hours of so of global consumption. However, it signifies that the supply problems are really severe. Once shortages occur and physical supply is disrupted, I expect major shocks to political stability in the consuming nations.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/jun/16/peak-oil-labour-government

I agree with Kamamura_CZ. The recent developments with OPEC and the IEA are a sure sign that oil production has been mostly maxed out. Countries like Russia and Canada could increase production a fair bit but I don't see that happening to a significant degree due to environmental and economic reasons. 

ummm ya sure... If anyone has the pants in that relationship it's Saudi Arabia. It's ridiculous how well they play the States at times. The real reason the Saudis said the were going to increase supply has much more to do with long term planning. If oil prices go up then less people buy and they seek alternatives. The Saudis are simply afraid that if oil gets to expensive it will either start a permanent consumption decrease trend or cause a economic crash. Either or would seriously harm their finances at a time when social unrest is growing all around them and they have been relying on paying off their own citizens to keep it smothered.