1. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's broken. I don't understand a lot of things but I don't think they're broken.

2. Velocity= the rate at which something is moving, and the direction it is moving in. Rate is expressed as a distance unit (like inches/feet) divided by a unit of time (seconds/minutes); in this case the requirement is that the rate is expressed as meters traveled per second.

3. Mass= effectively the weight of whatever you're throwing at the target. However, it is given as mass because weight is really just the effect of gravity, whilst mass is constant, even without gravity. Since this occurance didn't happen in zero gravity and is unlikely to be replicated in such conditions, mass and weight can be treated as identical.

4. Kinetic Energy= there's 2 kinds of energy, potential and kinetic; simply put, kinetic is energy that's in motion/doing something, while potential energy is effectively doing the equivalent of sitting on its but twiddling its thumbs. Kinetic Energy can also used interchangeably with force.

Does this help? I'm not being sarcastic, I actually do want to know if this helps.

And are you sure you don't want to participate in the topic I suggested?

"A suspicious mind is a healthy one."

damn you post alot questions

1how the hell did i bring religion back in

2where is your evidence to disprove me and storm gave very clear definitions

3yes whiskey i see the equation but how is a 75+ yo woman who can barley walk or see is unable to lift a sword ect. able to exert enough force to punch through 2in of steel

1. You brought up religion in your explanation of magic.

2. That's not how it works. You must prove the existence of something, as from where I'm standing, I cannot disprove the existence of something that does not exist.

3a. Please provide your age, the age of the woman in question, and her physical fitness level at the time of the incident.

3b. Please provide evidence for your claim that this woman is bairly able to walk or see, and is unable to lift a sword.

3c. Why is it relevant that she is unable to lift a sword?

3d. If she has enough weight and speed then she could do so.

4. Please provide pictoral evidence that this woman was able to punch through 2" of steel.

5. Please provide the approximate dimensions of the piece of steel in question.

6. Please provide an approximate summary of the methods you used to forge the steel piece and your skill in smithing at the time of the incident in question.

7. Guns pwn swords.

"A suspicious mind is a healthy one."

No I did not. Did I actually say that I accept these terms and rules and that I WANT to enter the debate? NO

Good thing you realised that. What sarcasm are you talking about? Please quote, or use 1. 2. 3. etc, to show where you are actually referring to. A lot has been said, you need to be more specific.

Then you are being paranoid. (sorry, thats the truth, you dont use common sense and being irrational).

This is NOT EVIDENCE. These were just claims, and vague words, that someone needs to take on faith, to believe them. You offered no evidence whatsoever, and you keep avoiding almost everything I said.

This is not a standard value for all humans. And also "force" is a relative thing, that is a result of many factors, like human's body mass, levels of adrenaline at the time of the strike, muscle growth and fitness, and sheer willpower.

1. We didnt prove that magic does not exist, simply because NOBODY has ever proven that it actually does exist. Therefore, we cannot and we do NOT need to disprove its existence. We only proved that there isnt something solid to support the existence of magic, thus disregarding that theory, and we are based on solid facts and common sense.

2. What does it mean "are you partial to"? I dont understand.

Exactly! Storm is requesting from us to disprove things that skidi and himself DESCRIBED! How in the world can we know everything about these stories, with such low amount of information?

No! You are the one who is DODGING almost every single we have posted, while disregarding everything we say, at the same time. And you are doing a damn good job about it.

Jesus! You are literally arguing with yourself here!!! You cant even explain your own theories for gods sake!

Whiskey provided you with the equation, and you,should fill in the proper numbers.

Again, we dont know ANYTHING about skidi's story. Nothing about your stories, nothing about Skidi's. Oh and the only way to calculate that accurately, is to actually, be there when it happened, and to have proper machinery to test the shaman's body, measure everything, examine the steel plate with professional equipment, etc etc.

If you think you can know how much force a particular human needs to use to punch through an unknown steel plate that we know NOTHING about, then.....I feel sorry for you.

We dont know anything about the whole shaman punches through a steel plate thing, thus we cannot proceed in calculating if it was through physical strength or magic.

I have answered satisfactory in everything that you have said so far, while you have answered almost nothing of mine, you keep dodging and dodging an dodging.....

Twilight Storm evading bonus +100\ *Dodge *Dodge *Dodge *Dodge *Dodge *Dodge *Dodge *Dodge

Whiskey, its not worth our time, but I can keep beating him over and over again, I dont mind. If you want another subject, I am in too.

"Can I haz cookies nao?"

People. people... You can state your opinions, and people can or can't believe them... No need to be offensive or anything. I don't know if it's right, but I'm pretty sure that you have offended/upset Storm, perhaps Skidi as well. You should argue politely Morph and Whiskey, and tread carefully. If you can't change people's minds, then stop before you go too far.

Now that I've finished being some kind of parent, I apologise if my observations were wrong.

Limey Man: I'm here to post stuff and drink tea, and I'm all out of tea...

1 i never said anything religious you would know if i did names are nothing

2 to me science has no existance

3a i was 12 the shaman was 76 she is crippled is very weak at her age lost her warrior strength around the age of 55 as my father tells me

3b she can barly see and uses memory and help from others to make charms and text and since she can hardly see she avoids walking if is not necessary

3c if she cant lift a sword she has no strength even children in my village are able to lift shot swords at 6

3d based on above tell me where the speed came from and she was very light i had to lift her severl times from her bed to dress her i was her care taker

4 whiskey my tribe has never seen a camara in 20 years i scared them half to deth when i brought one down from america

5 2 feet by 3

6 took the steel and melted it down then pored it into a mold cooled it then re heated and worked it until it was the right size for storage

7 how is that relevant to the topic

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To whiskey's reply at the top of the page, each paragraph is in order with your own:

I'm sure, I saw it elsewhere on the forums and it turned into a mini-flame war.

Thank you for the clarification on the equasion you offered.  It didn't help, but that was because of the way I've worded my requests.  I'm an active learner:  I need to see it to learn.  Could you show that equasion, giving the numbers for what mass, velocity, and the other aspects of the equasion are for this particular instance?

All I want you to concider at this point is a fist hitting 2" of steel.

It occurs to me leverage is also a factor here, though.

Skidi:  What were the parameters of the slab?  2" thick, but how big was it?  (Like 2 feet by 2 feet or what?)

I'm not trying to disprove you, I actually do believe, but in order to make this evidence incontrovertable, we need to look at this through the eyes of the opponent.

Yeah, I said I was done, but I'm now focussing on this one aspect of the discussion.

So, can you give numbers, Whiskey?  The equasion is legit, i believe that, but it needs to be applied to the circumstance in question to be relevant.  The mass of a fist, the velocity it can travel, the density of steel.

What i am trying to get at is that i don't believe even the strongest of people could punch through steel on their own without magic.

Skidi: I don't see how you brough religion back in either.  Seems to me that you stopped one of your posts because it would have brought rteligion in.  I think it was an accidental reaction between one of Altaux and Whiskey's posts that got it mixed back in.  Nobody's fault.

The won't accept definitions that are not proven correct.  Nobody seemed to get the point of us putting everyone's definition of magic on the board.  It was so we all were arguing the same point, instead of everyone trying to guess what everyone else's definition of the topic was.

I'm going to offer something up here.  Keep the following in mind:

It is believed to be a religious miracle.

It was tol to me third hand, and therefore may very well be false.

I AM NOT STATING THE RELIGION AS THE SORE OF THIS, SIMPLY STATING SOMETHING NOT RELATED TO ME.

I heard, from a children's pastor, of a person in africa that had been in their home, when a Green Mamba(Snake that can kill you within 3 secondsof being bitten) got into their home.  They could not go around it and were stuck in the corner.

From what i was told, they prayed to their god(christian, if you feel it is relevant) and closed their eyes.  When they opened their eyes, they were outside their house.  When they looked inside, the snake was staring in through the window.

Yes, it was an act based in religion.  But by the definitions both me and Skidi have shown you(I believe this follows Skidi's anyway, sorry if not)  it is the same as our definitions of magic.

Setting aside the (Admittedly probable) possibility that it was simply made up, explain 1 other way that the person in question could have gotten outside without walking there.

I am aware of the option Occam's Razor would submit, but let's for the sake of argument say that there was no way this was made up.

-Twilight Storm | My life for the Dahkri | THIS!!!  IS!!!  SPATRAAA!!!

Thats what I have been saying for the last 2 hours. Its Common sense.

I fully agree with you

However, Storm has started a war, and there are 2 things in life that I CANNOT tolerate:

1. Racism of any kind, and,

2. Disregarding common sense.

Right now, Storm is literally raping common sense, so I am gonna keep putting him down.

Whiskey: Its us or them baby!

"Can I haz cookies nao?"

Wow, you all posted a lot while I was doing that.

Morph, leave the symantics out of it.  By this point  was not even refering to Skidi's statement, but rather the possibility of punching through Steel.  I wanted a ballpark number for the ammount of force needed to do it, and a ballpark number for how much force a person can exert.  I am aware we don't have all the information, that's why I asked for averages.  If the two numbers were vaguely similar, I would have given up on that front, as there would have been no way to convince you otherwise.

Also, it is whiskey's place to fill in the numbers as he presented the equasion as his own evidence.  Had I presented it, it would be my place, and I have even offered to do that research myself.

Skidi, we should drop this before the flame war starts again.  Maybe bring it up again at a later date when we've all cooled off and can start out on the same page rather than everyone arguing a different thing.

-Twilight Storm | My life for the Dahkri | THIS!!!  IS!!!  SPARTAAA

If you cannot disprove something that does not exist, then how do you know it does not exist?

That does not make any sense to me.

-Twilight Storm | My life or the Dahkri | THIS!!!  IS!!! SPARTAAA!!!

1. Everything you mentioned about "spiritual magic", "arcane magic" etc etc is directly related to your own religion. Therefore, you guys broke your own rules ever since the start of all this.

2. "to me science has no existance" Science  exists in EVERYTHING and everywhere. It is not just a tool of understanding, it is literally everything that surrounds us.

If someone does not believe in Science, then there are 2 possibilities: A. He/she doesnt know the word's meaning/definition, and B. He/She is simply insane.

3a. Please provide any form of solid evidence regarding this issue.

3b. Please provide any form of solid evidence regarding this issue.

3c. Please provide any form of solid evidence regarding this issue.

3d. Please provide any form of solid evidence regarding this issue.

4. That is not our problem.

5. Please provide any form of solid evidence regarding this issue.

6. Please provide any form of solid evidence regarding this issue.

7. It isnt, but I agree with it.

"Can I haz cookies nao?"

1. I'll concede that.

2. I mean what types of girls do you like the most/more than others; things like hair/eye color, country of origin, that sort of thing.

No you can't have any cookies; not now and not ever!

1. You mentioned one form of your as-yet unproven magics calling on the power of the "gods". Obviously a religious notation.

2. Unfortunately you are incorrect; science is a well-documented tool/subject that has been used for millenia.

3a. Please provide legitimate records; word of mouth accounts are often filled with innaccuracy or outright lies.

3b. Once again, I either take your word for it or you back it up.

3c. Just because a person cannot lift a sword doesn't mean they have no strength.

3d. Sheer willpower, adrenaline brought by the anger of you challenging her claim. Also, your duties as her caretaker are irrelevant.

4. Point? If your tribe cannot come into the modern age then they are begging for people to disbeleive any and/or all claims they make.

5. Specific dimensions; 2'x3' provides very little data. At least it provides some however.

6. Describe in detail this process.

7. It isn't. I put that in for kicks. Regardless of why I put it in it's still true.

Okay, here's an example: say I've got a railgun that fires slugs 90x200mm in size, of a right cylinder shape. The slugs are composed of Tungsten which has a density of 19.25 grams per cubic centimeter; this means the slug has a mass of 24.5 kilograms.

I then fire the slug out of the weapon at a velocity of 6,000 meters per second. It hits a target, and impacts with an energy of 441 megajoules.

If we plug the values into the equation then we derive: 441,000,000 joules=24.5 kilograms*(6000 meters per second)^2.

I hope that clarifies it for you.

Also, something I think I should clarify for you: physical strength has less to do with breaking/punching through something than you think.

Let me explain: when I am breaking boards in Tae Kwon Do, I'm not trying to hit the board; I'm trying to hit behind the board/go through the board. Thus, punching a piece of steel is a useless attempt; punching at something behind the steel is going to do better.

An interesting story; however I don't think it follows Skidi's definition (it didn't mention teleportation).

@morph- sorry for the very long quoting/posting.

"A suspicious mind is a healthy mind."

Morph, your responses to 3a-d, 4, 5, and 6 are absolutely unfounded.  Whiskey asked her for the information and she gave it.  You're reverting to that 2 year old I had thought had left until now.

Those who do not believe in science are most certainly not insane, they simply have the understanding of things without having to know why.  Faith.  Call it an unfi=ounded term if you want, but it's there none-the-less.  (Respond carefully to this, it is in fact a trap.  fair warning.)

That is the one thing I hate about people above all else, their desire to put everything into a category or figure out why something happens.

The two of you are fanning this flame war, to make that clear.  We're answering the questions you ask, and you are walking around them until you see a way to make the answer irrelivent.

Name one question either of us has refused to answer.

-Twilight Storm | My life for the Dahkri | THIS!!! IS!!! SPARTAAA!!!

you know what morph FUCK YOU

"provide physical evidence" my ass this whole time i have tried to stay calm and be nice about this there is no physical piticters or stuff like that NO CAMERA yah not your problem but i dont give a damn the steel slabs was re cast to be stockpiled NO HOLE i only had the shaman do it any way because i was not born when she did it 20 years before

and this thing

2. "to me science has no existance" Science  exists in EVERYTHING and everywhere. It is not just a tool of understanding, it is literally everything that surrounds us.

If someone does not believe in Science, then there are 2 possibilities: A. He/she doesnt know the word's meaning/definition, and B. He/She is simply insane.

TO ME SCIENCE IS SHIT to me magic exist in every thing and everywhere IT is literally everything that surrounds us so agen go die in a hole

i better leave before i get real angry

The story was a seperate matter, and my last submission.  Please explain a way it could be done through science to disprove it.  (To be clear, a lack of a way does not prove it, as I said, it was third-hand information)  I'm just curious as to how i could be done through any other means, assuming it's true.  (And don't say a word about me using the word assume.  At this point, neither side has any ground to stand on as there has been no evidence to the contrary, and you've all dismissed what we have offered.  Concider that story a seperate matter entirely for now.

I see what you mean about punching behind an object, but I still believe Skidi's account of it.  She was there, she saw what happened, and is the only one among us with the proper knowledge to make any sense of it.

Her lack of belief in science is not unjustified.  Science and religion are very similar things the way I see them, the only difference being Science yields tangible results, while religion is spiritual.

-Twilight Storm | My life fr the Dahkri | THIS!!!  IS!!!  SPARTAAA!!!

It's not that your refusing to answer our questions, it's that you seem to be ignoring our requests to provide well-documented evidence.

People want to figure out why things happen because 1) it helps them understand the universe they live in or 2) they want to know why some horrible event had to occur.

Faith is necessary for many things. That's all I'll say to that.

Exactly, to YOU science is "shit". That doesn't mean that it isn't a perfectly valid (and more accurate TBH) explanation of the world around us. I suppose you believe the Earth is flat and the center of the solar system as well?

Additionally, how do explain gravity, or how do you explain how electricity or fission or car engines work? If your answer is "it's magic", then I refuse to accept your beliefs as valid because they require the participant to take EVERYTHING on BLIND faith.

So what if you get real angry? Are you going to hex me, or do some spell that lets you reach through my computer and stab me?

"A suspicious mind is a healthy mind."

Yes Storm, science and religion are similar in some respects.

The only way to disprove it is to say it never happened and was a hoax. Other than that, I'm calling divine act of God on that.

Ultimately, I'm thinking we should probably just drop this.

"A suspicious mind is a healthy mind."

I was afraid that was gonna happen.  Now Skidi exploaded.  Everyone go back and re-read what has been posted on the topic and the directions it took before you sy another word on it and you'll see where everyone is coming from.  Read your own responses carefully in particular.  I'll do the same.

If you aren't going to do that simple thing, the only way to keep this from escelating, the STFU about it.  I tried to drop the magic part, and Morph brought it back, and whiskey kept it going.

Neither of you has offered a god damn thing to this whole WAR and sat there grinning about it the whole time like of couple of morons.

Nor have I gotten a responce to:

If you cannot disprove something that does not exist, then how do you know it does not exist?

Or a single question I have refused to answer which you accused me of.

-Twilight Storm | My life for the Dahkri | THIS!!! IS!!! SPARTAAA!!!

1. The idea behind "can't disprove what doesn't exist" is if it doesn't exist, it's existence doesn't need to be disproven.

2. I've never accused you of not answering any of my questions/counterpoints. I've simply accused you of not providing more concrete evidence than personal accounts and word-of-mouth tales.

I don't grin like a moron, I grin like a sociopath. The only reason I kept it going was because Skidi was trying to say "I don't need concrete evidence, you should take me for my word".

I hereby call vote of dropping this subject-

Yes, drop the "existence of magic"- 1

No, don't drop it- 0

I will modify the count as necessary.

"A suspicious mind is a healthy mind."

Then I am sorry that then 2 year old can use common sense, logic, and understand simple science application while you dont. I guess that makes you an unborn child.

Its ok, just dont quote long posts very often.

2. I am not interested in that subject.

I wunt mah cookiez!!!

Storm, I see that you CLEARLY keep dodging and dodging everything. You try twist and turn the subject to your favor, by changing it as the discussion continues. You could NOT prove neither explain your false claims of magic, thus you moved to a questionable story, about a shaman breaking a 2" steel plate, that we know nothing about. Then you just tried to prove very very generalized if a person can punch through steel using sheer force, and then failed AGAIN.

Now, from what I understand, you action is to change the subject completely questioning science itself. Obviously you are going to do this forever, literally arguing with yourself AND common sense, for no particular reason.

You didnt answer 1 single question sufficiently, and you have NOT proved a damn thing.

We are not walking around them, we are simply trying to understand them, with the such little info, and no evidence that you give us.

1 question you have refused to answer????????????????????????????? Are you KIDDING ME?

Go to the previous page, and Answer sufficiently to everything that me and Whiskey have said so far. Including common sense stuff, like proving a theory.

I dont want to post for the 543463564656845328748324532th time, that in order for us to disprove your theory, it needs to be proven real first.

If you dont like common sense then you may as well.......hrmf I will keep my mouth shut this time, so I dont say something I may regret later.

"Can I haz cookies nao?"

No, I dont like having sex with unknown girls of the internet. If you were gonna meet me in real life, and I got to know you, then maybe I would agree to let you Fuck me. So, I am gonna have to pass on this one.

First of all, I am having trouble reading your post, because its really bad written.

2. Then you really are crazy, because science is everywhere, and not believing is such basic knowledge, proves that something is wrong with you.

Magic cannot be proven, therefore it does not exist.

3. It seems to me that you are already angry. But dont worry, because if you got REALLY angry, then maybe you will get so mad that you may punch through a 2" of steel plate. But by using magic of course....

"Can I haz cookies nao?"

I didn't change the subject, i dropped it because neither of you would give a proper definition so we could all be debating the same thing.

I kept with the steel plate beacause i was curious on that partucular subject, and YOU AND WHISKEY BROUGHT IT BACK.

I said name a question I didn't answer sufficiently.  A 2 year old with a grasp on logic should be able to accomplish that given how many there are supposed to be, eh?

I don't claim to have proven anything.  I'm offering what evidence i can, as did Skidi.

Even if she had posted pics(If they existed) both of you would have jumped on the photoshop train and cried fake.  To be quite honest, I do not believe you are capable of having a civil conversation about anything you don't believe or understand.

For the third time, I drop the subject.

For the record, I actually enjoyed arguing this with whiskey, he didn't seem to take any of this personally(A foreign concept to some)  He offerd valid points, and my unanswered questions were a result of my badly wording them.

-Twilight Storm | My life for the Dahkri | THIS!!! IS!!! SPARTAAA

Morph, Drop it right now you self-ritious son of a bitch.  That was absolutely uncalled for and you know it.  You baited her into it from the very beginning when she came into the war and now you're outright making fun of her beliefs.

Go fuck yourself.  I am absolutely done with this and you.

-Twilight Storm

Everything that Whiskey said so far: QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT QFT

"So what if you get real angry? Are you going to hex me, or do some spell that lets you reach through my computer and stab me?"

  Nice 1

"Can I haz cookies nao?"