Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

For Sins Version 1.19 and Entrenchment 1.05

from Sins Forums

Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

BUGS

Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:

- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously

- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously

- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots

- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.

- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.

- Random Map Bugs:

              - Single Phase lane starts

              - No connected Asteroids

              - Overlapping Gravity Wells

- Backwards Dunov Icon

- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)

- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock

- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul

- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.

- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING

- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).

 

CAPITAL SHIPS

This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.

Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)

                          Increase hp/shields/armor?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile               MindsEye                 Swordsalmon
                                                      Hrabandur                CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                   Warlord Mike           Onigiri

                                     Nay-

                          Increase DPS?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                 Swordsalmon           CallenExile
                                                      Hrabandur               CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                       Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           Onigiri

                          Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600)  Darvin3       Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile              MindsEye                  Swordsalmon
                                                      CrazyElectron           Ryat                        Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-            Hrabandur              Onigiri

                          Re-work Animosity?

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz           Darvin3                   Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                Swordsalmon            Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           CallenExile              Hrabandur               Onigiri

         No Change needed-                    CoBBQ

Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)

                        Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?

                                    Yay-            Darvin3               Volt_Cruelerz              Deceiver_0
                                                      Swordsalmon       Agent of Kharma           Hrabandur
                                                      Ryat                   Arthanis                     Warlord Mike
                                                      Onigiri 

                                    Nay-            CallenExile           MindsEye

        No Change needed-

Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)

                       Buff Scramble Bombers?

                                  Yay-              Darvin3              Volt_Cruelerz               Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye            Swordsalmon               Agent of Kharma
                                                      Hrabandur          Ryat                           Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike 

                                  Nay-              CallenExile         Onigiri

                      Buff Replicate Forces?

                                  Yay-               Arthanis            Warlord Mike                 Onigiri

                                  Nay-

        No Change needed-

Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)

                      Increase AM regen?

                                 Yay-               Darvin3               Hrabandur               CrazyElectron
                                                      Ryat                   Juletron                  Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike        Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               CallenExile           Mindseye                 Onigiri

                     Increase maximum AM?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Darvin3                    Hrabandur
                                                      Mindseye            Volt_Cruelerz             CrazyElectron
                                                      Juletron              Arthanis                   Warlord Mike

                                 Nay-               Ryat                  Swordsalmon            Onigiri

                     Increase Dunov EMP range?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Mindseye                  Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      CrazyElectron      Ryat                        Juletron
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike             Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               Hrabandur          Onigiri

                     Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?

                                Yay-                Mindseye           CrazyElectron             Juletron
                                                      Arthanis            Deceiver_0

                                Nay-                Ryat                 Volt_Cruelerz            Warlord Mike
                                                      Swordsalmon      Onigiri

                     Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye           Juletron                    Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis            Warlord Mike             Onigiri

                               Nay-                 Ryat                Swordsalmon

                     Buff Phase out hull?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye            Juletron                   Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike            Swordsalmon
                                                       

                               Nay-                 Ryat                 Onigiri

         No Change Needed-

 

 

DELIVERANCE ENGINE

Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)

Buff Deliverance engine-

                         Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0                Kitkun                    Greyfox2
                                                     anteachtaire              Mow Mow                Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur                 Arthanis

                                    Nay-           Howdidudothat

No buff needed-                                Qu4r                        Darvin3                  CallenExile        

 

 

EMPIRE TREE

As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?

Adjust Empire Tree-

                         Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  SwordSalmon
                                                     JSW_Ballz                Mindseye                Agent of Kharma
                                                     Ryat                        52500                    Mow Mow
                                                     Fuzzy Logic              EadTaes                 Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur               Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Arthanis

                                    Nay-           CallenExile

 

FIGHTERS

Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions

Buff Fighters-

                        Increase armor/hp?

                                  Yay-             Mindseye                 Mow Mow                Greyfox2
                                                     Qu4r                       Arthanis          

                                  Nay-             Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                     Top Vasari               Warlord Mike           EadTaes
                                                     Hrabandur                Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician       Agent of Kharma      CallenExile
                                                     CrazyElectron 

MAPS

Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets  (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?

Magnetic Clouds-

                          Allow starbase deployment?

                                    Yay-            Deceiver_0              Darvin3                  Hrabandur
                                                      Juletron                  Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike
                                                      DirtySanchezz          Kitkun                    Qu4r
                                                      CrazyElectron

                                    Nay-            Ryat                       CallenExile              EadTaes
                                                      DesConnor              -Ue_Carbon             Chaotic Magician

Ice/Volcanic planets-

                          Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?

                                   Yay-             Deceiver_0              Swordsalmon           Ryat
                                                      Darvin3                   Juletron                  Mindseye
                                                      Mow Mow                 EadTaes                 JSW_Ballz
                                                      Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                      Ovi_187                  -Ue_Carbon            Chaotic Magician
                                                      CrazyElectron 

                                   Nay-             CallenExile              DesConnor              DirtySanchezz
                                                      Hrabandur               Agent of Kharma      Qu4r

No Changes needed-

 

 

 

ORKULUS STARBASE

This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.

Nerf Orkulus-

                           Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)

                                     Yay-          Greyfox2                   Raging Amish(3x)   Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Deceiver_0                 Cykur                    Howdidudothat
                                                     Top Vasari                  Swordsalmon         Ryat
                                                     anteachtaire               LordMechanoid       JSW_Ballz
                                                     Warlord Mike              Agent of Kharma    DesConnor
                                                     DirtySanchezz             Kitkun                   Qu4r
                                                     52500                        Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician         Qu4r                    CallenExile
                                                    

Other-

                           SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")

                                    Yay-          Mindseye                    Deceiver_0            Howdidudothat
                                                    Top Vasari                   Cykur                   LordMechanoid
                                                    Warlord Mike               DirtySanchezz        Kitkun
                                                    52500                         Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Chaotic Magician           CallenExile           CrazyElectron
                                                    Arthanis 

                                    Nay-          JSW_Ballz                   DesConnor           Qu4r

 

 

SCOUT FRIGATES

A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.

Nerf Scouts-

                          Decrease hp/shields?

                                     Yay-

                                     Nay-          DirtySanchezz            Cykur                Arthanis

                          Decrease DPS?

                                     Yay-          DirtySanchezz            Greyfox2           Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Cykur

                          Increase Cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Mindseye                   Cykur                 Swordsalmon

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz             Arthanis

No Nerf Needed-                              Deceiver_0                 Wingflier            Howdidudothat
                                                     Darvin3                      Ryat                 CallenExile
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Agent of Kharma  Sivcorp
                                                     52500                       JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                     Kitkun                       Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Qu4r                        CrazyElectron

Balance Scouts-

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier             Mow Mow
                                                    Swordsalmon              Darvin3               Ryat
                                                    Greyfox2                    52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Top Vasari           LordMechanoid
                                                    Kitkun                        Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                          CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz            Howdidudothat      CallenExile
                                                   

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?

                                     Yay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz      Howdidudothat
                                                     Greyfox2                   Hrabandur          Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                    Darvin3               Ryat
                                                     CallenExile                52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                     Cykur                       LordMechanoid     Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                 CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                          Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier              Howdidudothat
                                                    CallenExile                 52500                  LordMechanoid
                                                    Hrabandur                  Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz       Darvin3
                                                    Ryat                          Chaotic Magician   JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Greyfox2             Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                          Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                   Swordsalmon         Howdidudothat
                                                    Ryat                         Chaotic Magician     52500
                                                    JSW_Ballz                  Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                         CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                   DirtySanchezz        Darvin3
                                                    CallenExile                Cykur                   Greyfox2
                                                    LordMechanoid           Kitkun   

                          Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                  Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                    Chaotic Magician         Sivcorp                   Top Vasari
                                                    Kitkun                      Hrabandur              -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                        CrazyElectron           Arthanis

                                     Nay-         CallenExile               JSW_Ballz               Cykur
                                                    LordMechanoid

No Balance Needed-                         Agent of Kharma      EadTaes                 DesConnor

 

 

RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS

While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?

Buff Skirmishers-

                            Increase DPS?
                                        
                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500 
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier              Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                     Ryat                   Sivcorp
                                                    DirtySanchezz             GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile                 Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike              lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                    DesConnor          Kitkun
                                                    Agent of Kharma        Hrabandur           -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                       CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

                            Decrease Supply cost?

                                      Yay-        Raging Amish           LordMechanoid      Hrabandur
                                                    Qu4r    

                                      Nay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier             Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                    Ryat                    CallenExile                
                                                    Mindseye                  JSW_Ballz            Warlord Mike
                                                    lbgsloan                   Mow Mow              Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                            Decrease Resource cost?

                                      Yay-        52500                       Warlord Mike

                                      Nay-        Darvin3                     Cykur                Chaotic Magician  
                                                    Top Vasari                 Howdidudothat    Wingflier
                                                    Swordsalmon             Juletron              Ryat
                                                    DirtySanchezz             Raging Amish     CallenExile
                                                    Mindseye                   JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                    lbgsloan                    Kitkun                Hrabandur
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               Qu4r                   Arthanis

                            Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?

                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0               Darvin3               52500
                                                    Chaotic Magician       Top Vasari           Howdidudothat          
                                                    Wingflier                  Swordsalmon       Juletron
                                                    Ryat                        Sivcorp               Runesia
                                                    DirtySanchezz           GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile               Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike            lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                  Kitkun                 Agent of Kharma
                                                    Hrabandur               -Ue_Carbon          Qu4r 
                                                    CrazyElectron            Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

 

No Change Needed-

 

 

 

1,701,532 views 913 replies
Reply #126 from Sins Forums Top

Bug: Strike craft freezing up (unresponsive to move and attack orders) for undetermined amount of time in enemy grav-wells (have not seen it happen on home court). Occurs in single player and multi player, usually late game.

Ha ha, not a bug.  You are attacking a vasari who has the hanger upgrades that freeze your strikecraft in phase space.

+1 Loading…
Reply #127 from Sins Forums Top

Thanks for clearing that up Agent of Kharma! Have not played as Vasari since I got Entrenchment. False alarm, move along, nothing to see here...

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #128 from Sins Forums Top

Nerf Scouts-

                          Decrease hp/shields?

                                     Nay-        

                          Decrease DPS?

                                     Nay-         

                          Increase Cost/supply?

                                     Yay-        

 

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?

                                     Yay-       

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?

                                     Yay-  

                          Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?

                                     Nay-        

                          Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?

                                     Nay-

                          Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?

                                     Nay- 

 

Buff Skirmishers-

                            Increase DPS?
                                        
                                      Yay-      

                            Decrease Supply cost?

                                      Nay-     

                            Decrease Resource cost?

                                      Nay-    

                            Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?

                                      Yay-      

 


FIX STINKING LUMS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #129 from Sins Forums Top

One topic that's recently being discussed is the relative uselessness of TEC Shield Generators.  I table a motion for discussion.  Any seconds?

Reply #130 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Warlord, reply 129
One topic that's recently being discussed is the relative uselessness of TEC Shield Generators.  I table a motion for discussion.  Any seconds?

You mean the planetary shields?  I agree that they're not so helpful.  I'm not completely sure how to balance them, though.  I know you could up the amount of damage they can sustain, but I don't think it'll make them all that worthwhile.  Reducing logistic slots would help.  Giving them a new ability would as well (but it'd be very easy to make them overpowered). 

Really, I only see them being useful if people start heavily using Novalith Cannons or if seige frigates get a boost in power.  'Course, the other races might be left high and dry in that scenario.

Reply #131 from Sins Forums Top

herm... sheild generators... nano-weapon jammers... and anti-matter rechagers...

no one ever uses them. at least in multiplayer. ever.

because by the time you got to the point where you can build them either your already winning, or the super weapons are about to get broken out, and no one cares about defences any more.

what we we dropped them down to tier 3 or so? and their upgrades tier 5 (currently they are, what... tier 5 and 7, right?)

although, i think advent will benefit the most from this... as i see antimatter rechargers being the most usefull... but if the illum bug is fixed, that might be ok.

Reply #132 from Sins Forums Top

The way I see it, Pbhead, is that nano-weapon jammers and anti-matter rechargers are still decent technologies, even if largely unused in multiplayer because of the nature of online play.  But the problem with the shield generator is, it seems to have been outclassed by the starbase, as well as "out-teched" (starbase comes at an earlier tech).  In other words, it might not be used even in single player.  I'm not saying that there isn't any conceivable utility in the shield generator, but it seems at this juncture that it has a very limited utility, and perhaps a dubious utility.

I don't think there has ever been any tech tree rearrangement in the history of this game due to patches, hotfixes, etc.  It is too much to do for a patch, too involved from a programming standpoint, too much of a "game changer" from a gameplay standpoint, etc.  If you are recommending tech tree changes (bringing shield gen down in tier), what you could hope for is that this could be incorporated for Diplomacy.

Warlord Mike has tabled a motion for discussion.  So anyone who has ideas (Pbhead and others), head over to my post on this topic and make your case!

Reply #133 from Sins Forums Top

For all three of those technologies, I think Pbhead got it right, they need to be lower tiered for anyone to care to use them. I would put them at tier 4 and 6, because to get a good economy going, each race needs AT LEAST 3, at which point "1 more lab to get a nice fleet helping tactical structure" might not be so bad. As I have said before, and has been mentaioned above, the Shield Generator is obsolete due to starbases and their much easier to get planetary protection. The only thing the shield generator does at this point is protect the planets population, and lets face it, that really isnt worth the cost to get, or build them, especially when they can be so easily destroyed by the large fleets running around at that point in the game. I think it needs to do something else to be worthwhile.

A few suggestions I've heard that I like:

-Doing damage to enemy ships too close to the planet

-Granting the planet a significant increase in population (safety thing, a bit like HW prophecy for Advent)

-Granting increased shield regeneration or mitigation to friendly ships near the planet.

Any of those sound good?

Reply #134 from Sins Forums Top

For all three of those technologies, I think Pbhead got it right, they need to be lower tiered for anyone to care to use them. I would put them at tier 4 and 6, because to get a good economy going, each race needs AT LEAST 3, at which point "1 more lab to get a nice fleet helping tactical structure" might not be so bad. As I have said before, and has been mentaioned above, the Shield Generator is obsolete due to starbases and their much easier to get planetary protection. The only thing the shield generator does at this point is protect the planets population, and lets face it, that really isnt worth the cost to get, or build them, especially when they can be so easily destroyed by the large fleets running around at that point in the game. I think it needs to do something else to be worthwhile.

A few suggestions I've heard that I like:

-Doing damage to enemy ships too close to the planet

-Granting the planet a significant increase in population (safety thing, a bit like HW prophecy for Advent)

-Granting increased shield regeneration or mitigation to friendly ships near the planet.

Any of those sound good?

 

Here is my idea for the Shield Generator.  Give it an Area of Effect that is fairly large -- about the range of a Repair Platform -- and any orbital structure that takes damage within that AoE must first deplete the health of the "Shield", or possibly share some of the damage to the Shield.  When the Shield is depleted, damage goes straight to the structures.  It would essentially work a lot like an immobile guardian.  It probably should not be able to protect ships, just orbital structures -- that would be too much.

Probably won't see the light of day, but maybe someone will stick it in a mod.  =)

Reply #135 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Agent, reply 132
The way I see it, Pbhead, is that nano-weapon jammers and anti-matter rechargers are still decent technologies, even if largely unused in multiplayer because of the nature of online play.  But the problem with the shield generator is, it seems to have been outclassed by the starbase, as well as "out-teched" (starbase comes at an earlier tech).  In other words, it might not be used even in single player.  I'm not saying that there isn't any conceivable utility in the shield generator, but it seems at this juncture that it has a very limited utility, and perhaps a dubious utility.

The problem with the anti-matter recharger for the Advent is that if you're going to spend money researching it and building them, then why not just research the normal anti-matter tech instead--the ones that increase your ships' antimatter capacity and regneration rate.

Perhaps the Vasari nano-weapons jammer would be useful, but for planetary defense Vasari players are more likely to invest the money in a starbase.  Ditto for the TEC and their planetary shield generator.

I actually did see a guy build a Shield Generator today in a 1v1 game.  This must have beent he first one I've seen anyone build in, perhaps, all of my time playing online.

Reply #136 from Sins Forums Top

The problem with the anti-matter recharger for the Advent is that if you're going to spend money researching it and building them, then why not just research the normal anti-matter tech instead--the ones that increase your ships' antimatter capacity and regneration rate.

You can research either or both.  The researching of one does not preclude the researching of the other - both are useful.  I have used both, at the same time no less, to good effect.  One way to use it is defensively, if your fleet is being attacked at one of your planets.  You sit on top of the antimatter recharger much as you would sit atop repair bays.  Another use is as a "milk cow" of sorts to support an attack on a planet.  You build the antimatter recharger one jump back on your planet, and jump your ship or ships back as needed to load up on antimatter.

I think you are thinking in terms of MP only.  The game is SP too.  While I happen to think that UNIT BALANCE should revolve around MP, I don't think that the entire game IN GENERAL should revolve around MP.  If the pace of MP is so fast, the maps so small, the speed so hectic, the games so short, blah blah, that the antimatter recharger doesn't get put to much use, that's fine - it gets put to use in SP.

Reply #137 from Sins Forums Top

Perhaps the Vasari nano-weapons jammer would be useful, but for planetary defense Vasari players are more likely to invest the money in a starbase. Ditto for the TEC and their planetary shield generator.

I have used the Weapons jammer in conjunction with a starbase with impressive results, it really cuts down the speed at which a large fleet of spammed units (*cough* illums *cough*) can kill a starbase. And I've found the AM recharger is great for quickly switching your carriers from say all fighters to all bombers.

But even back when I played Single Player, I found little use for Planetary Shields, and now that theres entrenchment and starbases, ALL they do above Starbases is protect planetary population, they don't offer any real incentive (yea, I dont really consider that nearly enough incentive to spend the money) to tech to them, and if you teched to 5 labs for other reasons, you still have little use for them.

I think the whole idea behind them was to help protect your planets from Vasari Marauder raids, which in the beginning was a sound idea, but now there is something that does it better and offers WAY MORE protection, and other benefits (like trade). Shield generator needs to be updated IMO for entrenchment, not necessarily for MP (although making them available at 4 labs would put them to greater use, I mean, short of Superweapons, theyre the most tech advanced structure you can research, and they arent THAT amazing, I just feel the tech Gap between them and other tactical structures isnt really justified).

Reply #138 from Sins Forums Top
This isn't so much a problem, but more an issue that is probably worth discussing, and i'm surprised it hasn't come up yet here, that is if I missed it if it already did. Am I the only person who feels the starbase build rate is just a smidge too high, and more specifically I mean the starbase build rate in enemy grav wells. Personally I think it's a midge too high ( currently 2.25X, i'd rather it be 3X, and then let the vasari spend money on research so the build rate can be reduced to 2X. This feeling comes mostly from the fact that unless you go bomber spam/lrf spam so you can adequately push back an early game starbase, you're screwed. Just one man's opinion.
Reply #139 from Sins Forums Top

Am I the only person who feels the starbase build rate is just a smidge too high, and more specifically I mean the starbase build rate in enemy grav wells

I'm totally in agreement with you (though I think that in both friendly and enemy grav wells it builds too fast).

Reply #140 from Sins Forums Top

They build kind of slowly in enemy gravwells already....they slowed down SB build speeds once already back in beta.

The main problem here is when someone feeds the Vasari player to SB rush you.  In which case, you should probably ask for your own feed.  The other time SB rushing is a problem is when my fleet is tied up fighting someone else....so really, these are 2v1 situations, hard for anyone to deal with.  If it is a true 1v1 situation and the Vasari rushed you with a starbase, I don't see it being a problem because the Vasari player is putting all their eggs in one basket.  If you immediately put your fleet on the starbase, even if you are using ineffective ships, you should be able to do enough damage to kill it shortly after it is built.

SB are critical for both Vasari offense and defense; another slowdown of SB build speed would remove the last thing they have going for them.  It is the main reason to have 1 or 2 Vasari on your side in a team game.

One possible solution would be to nerf scouts, so you won't feel so bad about making Illuminators to counter early starbases.

Reply #141 from Sins Forums Top

I agree with Cykur on this.  If you slow the SB build speed too much, it won't be possible to build them in enemy grav wells.  I was in the beta, and seem to remember them building slower, and that being an issue, but someone can correct me on that if I'm wrong.

I guess I'm open-minded to listen to why the build should be slower, but as of right now I see no problem with the current build speed.

Reply #142 from Sins Forums Top

ya, i se no problem iwth the build speed... most of the starbases i try to shneak get destroyed before they are built.

however... back to plantary shields... am rechargers and nano jammers.

 

I dont really like the idea of the plantary shield protectiong structures... since the advent hanger bay allready does that... at tier 3.  I do like the idea of having the planetary shield having some sort of ablitiy that actually uses the large AM reserves it has.

Reply #143 from Sins Forums Top

It is ironic that the planetary shield has AM reserves. It never uses them. I use the planetary shield on SP against pirates (I fight the DS style pirates, which are mean and nasty) because I need to focus on taking out the pirate fleet before I can take out the pirate siege frigates. I have watched them bomb the planet for a good 2 minutes (barely even scratch the planet) and the AM reserves do nothing.

Reply #144 from Sins Forums Top

I agree with Cykur in that, it is pretty difficult, and a major gamble to SB rush someone 1v1. Without a fleet to go along with it (through feed or doubling), the only good way to pull of an SB rush is by sneaking it, and these days, any semi-experienced MP Entrench player will be watching out for that like a hawk upon seeing any sign of Vasari nearby.

Additionally, as hard as it is to put a Orkulus in an enemy Vasari well, making it take longer would make it even more difficult. Think about it like this, two migrators build Orkuli at the same time, one visitor, one home team. The home teams gets finished when the visitors is only a 3rd of the way done, leaving plenty of time for the home team to upgrade and kill the visitors before its even finished. Even if the visitor had a 50% head start, the home team would still have enough time to produce a migrator at a local factory and have it finish BEFORE or around the SAME TIME as the visitors.

While, yeah, I think a build speed nerf could help those team game situations where SB rush=doom (which personally I think are becoming less and less effective as people are learning to adapt, survive, and win even if the SB matures), the game isnt all about the MP team games, and we ought to base our opinions in matters concerning balance on an equally skilled 1v1 basis. That is why I think that, skill being equal 1v1, the SB rush requires a good deal of cunning to pull off and take a quick victory. The SB rush is a viable strategy that isn't an instant win, but can be deadly just as any other strategy if implemented with skill, and I think nerfing the build rate would force it to require skill beyond a reasonable level to be considered a workable option. I say this because, even in team games, SB rush is part of a Vasari players arsenal, but doesn't dominate his opening strategy (much unlike lums dominating an Advent players strategy).

That being said, I do try not to let my personal opinions stand in the way of progress, I'll put it to a vote in an upcoming update.

Reply #145 from Sins Forums Top

Just a note about SB rushing....in a game I was just playing as TEC, a Vasari AI tried to sneak a SB onto one of my worlds...I was fighting the AI's ships, and chased them off and I noticed that while I had been fighting, it had started building a SB. (way to go AI!).  Most of my cash had just gone into my own TEC SB, which of course was not close enough to the Vasari base to do anything, so I immediately put my fleet -- 17 scouts and 2 cobalts, on it.  My low level Marza had to chug it's way over to help.  The Marza, 17 scouts, 2 cobalts killed it just as it was about done building.  It didn't get to fire a single shot.  Get a friend and do a test game online and try it.  There is no problem here.

Reply #146 from Sins Forums Top

I would agree that the build time is too quick for SB in enemy wells.  Your comments about a vasari against a vasari in terms of sb rushing is not useful really.  The home field that builds an sb is always going to have the advantage with everything else equal because of build time and upgrade speed and the only time a vasari can sb a vasari and have it work is to catch him totally by surprise.  It is different though when it is against advent or tec.  The vasari has the advantage of being able to move out of the way of any advent or tec base and can pick off any outlying structures, extractors, and units and still pose problems to the well in general.  It can still be difficult to take down a building SB even when you expect it because they dont generally come alone but with a carrier cap or 2 or an egg to kill off lrf or other units that try to kill it off.  Just my opinion though.

 

[_]-Greyfox

 

Reply #147 from Sins Forums Top

I just don't like how when a SB gets done building, any damage it was taking during build is negated and it goes right on being happy and healthily killing my shit.

Reply #148 from Sins Forums Top

Re-railing back to the shield generators...

Quoting Cykur, reply 134

Here is my idea for the Shield Generator.  Give it an Area of Effect that is fairly large -- about the range of a Repair Platform -- and any orbital structure that takes damage within that AoE must first deplete the health of the "Shield", or possibly share some of the damage to the Shield.  When the Shield is depleted, damage goes straight to the structures.  It would essentially work a lot like an immobile guardian.  It probably should not be able to protect ships, just orbital structures -- that would be too much.

Probably won't see the light of day, but maybe someone will stick it in a mod.  :)

I like this idea, too.  Making your orbitals harder to destroy, in addition to the planet-bombing mitigation, would certainly make them far more useful.  It would be a bit overpowered if your own ships were defended, as well - it probably wouldn't be necessary, anyway. :P

Has anyone addressed the fact that Nano-Jammers and Antimatter Regenerators autocast - even if there isn't anyone around?  If not, then I feel that ALSO should be addressed.

Reply #149 from Sins Forums Top

Has anyone addressed the fact that Nano-Jammers and Antimatter Regenerators autocast - even if there isn't anyone around? If not, then I feel that ALSO should be addressed.

Its in the bugs section above.

Your comments about a vasari against a vasari in terms of sb rushing is not useful really. The home field that builds an sb is always going to have the advantage

Additionally, as hard as it is to put a Orkulus in an enemy Vasari well

Im just saying, why make it harder?

Reply #150 from Sins Forums Top

I think sb build in enemy wells is to high.I think 3x would be to much but it needs to be 2.5-2.75 longer.Alot of vas are getting 2 carrier caps from start and those things heal a sb.Also rape scouts.Sometimes in those cases its hard to see it coming because they are expanding with migrators anyway.Its a big gamble but it pays off extremely well.So I think it should be tougher to pull off.Consider if they fix scouts and vas skirmisher.Vas could quickly become op in begininng.

I think deciver should open up for a buff to fighters as a counter to lrf.Fix scouts and fighters lrf wont be a problem.Dont over fix fighters tho.I suggest increasing hp and maybe decreasing build times.I know I have suggested this before and I had it in my mod which seemed to work well.Just my opinion.Fighters will live longer to be able to kill lrf at the same time flak keep their damage multipliers and kill fighters.Once they are dead there is a window to strike back at carriers who are fighterless for a longer time.That way there is consequences to suiciding ships.Balancing cap abilities to new hull would be easy and wouldnt really need to be adjusted anyway since there is more of a penalty for losing sc.