I remember the Risk LotR game, where the ring sort of ticked down the length of the game... once the ring arrived at Mount Doom the game would end.

I can only really imagine such a powerful artifact would require basically its own game mode... we're talking about two teams of players, Forces of Good and Forces of Evil, for the Forces of Good you have to throw the ring back into Mount Doom and when you're evil you have to try and stop it. Otherwise, having the ring able to destroy Sauron's faction would make it pretty crappy to play that particular faction in a normal skirmish game.

Hmmm the trouble with LotRs is there is a smudged line between good and evil. Some even swap sides during the 3rd Age (Saruman). Are the Dead Men of Dunharrow Good or evil? Anyone other than Aragorn may not have survived the encounter.

No I think breaking the game down into factions is good, as many in Gondor and Denethor in particular would have loved to have got their greasy hands on the Ring.

The Ring on the otherhand is wholly evil...and should have the ability to turn all those who possess it into either, the servant of Sauron or his equal (with regards to the more recognise powers in Middle Earth - Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf).

The trouble is with the Ring what stat can you use that is univeral, and can indicate a magical resistance to the Rule of the Ring?

EDIT: Quotes aren't working today.

Gandalf said something along the lines of that if you used the Ring to overthrow Sauron, you would take his place as the Dark Lord, no matter how good your intentions were in the beginning. But yes, I understand your point. I'm just not sure how to do it. In the books, the thing that kept the "good guys" from using the Ring is the fear that they would turn evil by doing so. But in the game, why would anyone care about being "good" or "evil" if being evil gives you immense power?

I think, technically, Sauron is immortal no matter what happens to the Ring, but if it is destroyed, he might as well be dead. I think the books used the phrase "less than the meanest spirit" or something like that. I agree, though, that would make a good mechanic. His physical body can be destroyed, but he can't be 100% killed. And without a body, his power is weakened, but he slowly regains it as his body rebuilds.

Which is actually another thing I was thinking about changing from my original plans. Originally, 3rd Age Sauron was going to be completely immobile, but that doesn't really go with the books. Instead, he will start out as the invisible spirit thing, and slowly regain his body, just like if his body is killed. But you will get a huge bonus if Sauron is in Barad-dur, so you're "encouraged" not to move him.

Each Sauron will have his own Ring, so that mutliple people can be the same faction. And probably their own Mt. Doom. But the Rings and volcanos would all be labeled as to which Sauron they "belong" to, so you don't have people trying to throw the Ring into the wrong Cracks of Doom, or a Sauron defending the wrong Mt. Doom.

My plan is that the Ring will be rare enough that you can't count on finding it and using it to destroy/overthrough Sauron, so you shouldn't be planning your strategy around it.

But I like the idea of another game mode. Maybe something almost like a Tower Defense game, where you take control of Gondor as the Ring is leaving the Shire, and must survive ever increasing attacks from Sauron, culminating in the siege of Minas Tirith, until the Ring makes it to Mt. Doom.

Isn't enough "doom clock" that once someone finds the Ring, if he doesn't get rid of it in X turns, he loses the game? (if Sauron is alive, the lands of the "fallen" surrender to him as he succumbs to darkness; if Sauron is dead, he changes into "Sauron" and could get some serious retcon in the research and magic areas, being forced to adapt to the changes) That means that once someone finds the Ring, he only cares about power or he tries to destroy it even if it's only not to be destroyed by the Ring.

My two copper pieces.  

Oh tho this was replacing ol' Lords of Magics by Sierra. I missed that game

The whole Ring discussion hinges on whether the mod(e) is going to be tuned for single-player, multiplay or both. In Single-Player many of these ideas would work perfectly, but for multiplay I really think Kygore's plan of having the ring be hard to find in the first place would be best, that allows it to be game-breaking but so rare that you cannot count on it turning up.

I'd like to see the possibility of some players going for a "Ring Strategy" where they send out heroes searching Middle Earth over for rings, sort of like in the Middle Earth Collectable Card Game. Magic rings would then have the "Identify Ring" spell cast upon them, triggering a (semi)random result which might be a common magic ring with minor powers or a major ring like one of the Dwarf rings or possibly the One Ring Itself.

If possible a "Corruption" mechanic would make players balance giving their magical items to heroes with the possibility they could flip out (ala Boromir, Smeagol, Denethor (the Palantir), and almost Frodo, Theoden, Bilbo and Galadriel) and depending on a random factor either switch sides to join Sauron, go rogue as a solo agent, or just run into the ocean and kill themselves. This also allows Hobbits to have a role to play, by simply giving Hobbit Heroes a bonus against Corruption, encouraging players to give the little guys the valuable stuff instead of buffing up Aragorn or Glorfindel with massive amounts of magical bling.

LotE now has forums! Thanks to strager of Elemental: Expanded Edition. Check the OP for the link.

What about Harad [Easterlings]? They should be a playable faction.

Besides, this mod will be extremely imbalanced if you plan to add "factions" like Angband/Melkor....not to mention that Melkor was defeated in the War of Wrath [First Age].

Yeah, I know he was only in the 1st Age. I plan on having this mod eventually get to the point were it spans multiple ages, not just the third. But yes, balancing will be tricky. But since he will be one of the last to be added (if he is added) I'm not really going to worry about balancing him yet. I'd be willing to bet that it will be a couple years before I get to him.

Gondolin, Angband etc. should be parts of a different/other mod. [Children of Húrin for example?] This is my subjective opinion of course.

Add-on maybe? You can choose to play with 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Age, or all of them together. Gondolin is a faction that I am very excited about making, but I think it is a lower priority for the time being until the "main" factions are done.

You should focus on the third age. A mod like that can be balanced if it's done right.

I would definitely love to have a Lord of the Rings dynamic WITHOUT the annoying all-or-nothing, time-clockish, ring.

That being said, I wouldn't mind a ring as a useful Item that beefs up a Champion.

In fact, personally I think ANYONE could do the Ring-Forging ... however there would be no way to simulate the Ring-Creator actually "giving" other players the rings ... since everyone knows the punchline.

So instead, have the ring-forging being a certain place along the tech tree.

Heck, even have the "minor rings of power" being early-ish enchanted Items to beef up Champions ... probably having a National Maximum of 9 rings of power.

Then, the ONE RING could be at the very end of the Tech Tree (on the enchantment branch), that basically turns those wielding rings of power to your side. In this way, the rings of power should be useful enough for EVERYONE to want, and relatively easy to get, while the ONE RING is kind of like a World Wonder item, that is hard to get (required tech) ... yet once you get it ... those Champions wearing "Power Rings" turn to the side of the one who is able to build the One Ring first.

Perhaps another interesting element could be that once you put on the ring of power, you cannot take it off.

Researching the One Ring could also have other useful purposes. Namely, it gives you an extra "life" because if you die, the opponent that killed you begins to wield the ring and the Creator becomes "in spirit" ... and allows a special TOWER to be built which can cast any Spells the Sovereign can cast (including newly researched spells) and has the amount of essence as the Sovereign had upon his death. Additionally, it should be able to place a bonus on friendly spells near the tower, penalties on enemy spells near the tower, and the reverse away from the tower. (or alternatively, having the Tower would allow you these bonuses within your cultural borders, and bestow penalties on spells cast outside of the cultural borders.

Now, these penalties need not apply (perhaps) to any champions that have already been bestowed with Essence or other Magical powers.

So ... this is one way I could see the ring being incorporated without it being a Buzz-Kill. Basically, the creation of the Rings are completely dependent on the Player. You could simply rush for the rings of power, and if no one Invests in Enchantment long enough to build the ONE RING then you have nothing to worry about. Alternatively, if the ONE RING is built by someone else then they get to snatch your Champions from you (Automatically).

The One Ring also has other benefits, so it would be possible that several factions could race to build the One Ring ... in order to get the inherent Immortality (you die if You are Killed AND the Ring is destroyed, but if you are NOT killed, and the ring is NOT destroyed, you still live).

So basically, the person that kills (if possible) the one with the ONE RING, then they can either attempt to destroy it, or keep it for themselves (For their own power).

This might make more sense if most Mortal leaders are "mortal" and can die, say, half way, or a third of the way, through the game, so that the leadership lasts several generations. In this way, building the One Ring could be significant in that it would allow you to survive forever (even if no one steals the ring from you) unless someone actually destroys the ring.

Additionally, once you put on the ring, you shouldn't be able to take it off (signifying the need to keep the ring). So in this way, if you kill the enemy Sov, and take his ring, yet are still surrounded by his armies ... if you WEAR the ring to gain the power to defeat his armies, then he will become immortal, and thus his factions immortality until YOU die. If you don't however, you might have to contend with the rest of the world on equal footing.

I like your idea for Ring mechanics. Although I am a little confused about the whole tower part...

However, there will be at least one pre-made scenario where the mechanics will (hopefully) work as I previously outlined. I mean, it wouldn't be the War of the Ring without the Ring, would it? I plan on at least one scenario that follows the books as close as possible (at least at the start), and I think the original plan would work better for that. Or maybe there will be a couple different game modes (cause more options=better).

Yep, a War of the Ring scenario would be nice to have, however...just a question: What are your plans for Mordor or Isengard in a scenario like that?..basically Mordor has 2 cities..as for Isengard, it's an even worse situation.

Maybe it can be balanced:

a.) Give ""fictional" starting cities for Mordor and Isengard

b.) Orcs and Uruks must be "free". Zero recruiting & upkeep cost. The number of orcs/recruited by turn/city must be capped. -> However later on, this will be imbalanced as well, if they manage to capture more cities.

I guess option a. is the way to go, even if it's against the lore.

It kind of depends on your definition of "city." I assume the two you're thinking of are Barad-dur and Minas Morgul? Dol Guldur could loosely be considered a city (it did send an army out at Lothlorien). Even more loosely, Cirith Ungol, being a large fortress with a bunch of Orcs in it, could be a city. Similarly, the Towers of the Teeth and the mountains around them could be a city, as I believe the book states that the mountains around the Black Gate were full of Orc "homes."

Isengard doesn't really have any of these outpost/city type things, though. But if your main concern with the lack of cities is "Where do they keep their population?" I don't think Isengard will have that problem. The whole 10,000 man army that attacked Helm's Deep was housed in (or under) Isengard.

To be honest, I don't think lack of cities will be much of a problem, although I am a little unsure of what potential problem you see with it. Is it that those factions will have no place to house their armies? No population to recruit from?

Yep, something like that. I mean let's see Isengard for example. If the scenario will start when the Uruks are ready to march...it will be extremely hard to balance it. 10k-20k Uruks will spread across the map, conquering everything.

I think the best would be to make a scenario which starts before the main events. IE. When Saruman starts to create the Uruks. It can be balanced if done right...but it won't be easy...afterall Gondor and Rohan will have lot of starting cities, while the dark forces only have a few. Settler units [+ the city founding ability of the "Sovereigns"] must be removed of course.

I'm changing the name of the mod. Lord of the Elements just wasn't cutting it, and I wanted a more descriptive name. So the new name is The Rise of Mordor.

This mod looks interesting.

The magic system in Elemental doesn't really fit but perhaps each 'channeller' from each race can start with a bonus that is called upon. Eg. The 'Horn Of Gondor' is the only spell item for Boromir and when cast/blown in a battle it raises the attack value of those around him.

If the magic system was basically just assigned at the start of the game and the spell research and temples were removed it would simplify the system a lot. Basically no spell research. Or perhaps different races can expand their research through purpose built buildings while others can't.

The ring could be an item with an event attached to it. Anyone wielding the ring can cast a spell of invisibility and gain much higher defence for that battle. But each time the 'Wear the Ring' spell is cast by a good race, Sauron gets a boost to his essence score. And the ring carrier position on the map is exposed. If the ring carrier is killed an event triggers to randomly place the ring in a quest hut where it needs to be searched and found again. Ring starts with Frodo at the start of the game.

Yeah, the magic system is going to have to be completely reworked and/or removed entirely. Very few characters have anything that could be called "magic." The wizards, Sauron, the Nazgul, and some of the Elves (the mirror of Galadriel, the Three Rings could maybe be called magic). And even those that had magic, it wasn't anything like throwing fireballs at people or whatnot. It was generally much more subtle.

Things like your Horn of Gondor idea don't even have to be spells. They could just be items or special abilities.

The Ring... well that presents all sorts of problems. How do you make it both tempting to use and perilous to use at the same time? If the goal of the game is to win, why would you care about being "corrupted" if it lets you win? Gandalf, Elrond, etc didn't use the Ring because they were "good" but most players won't care about being good if being evil lets them win.

Totally agree on the magic stuff!

A simplistic solution would be simply to make any player who uses the ring cut off alliances with the other Free Peoples (or in Isengard's case Saruman would cut off ties with Sauron). For example if Galadriel uses the ring, the game could automatically break all alliances and treaties that the Elves had with everyone else. In effect it would create a third "team". For a player who senses loss in the future of the Free Peoples, wringing victory out for themselves can be quite tempting, which I think is the idea

This would also breed distrust between the Free Peoples, as each player suspects the Ring-Bearer of betraying them if they look like they will lose. With this effect, Hope itself becomes something of a resource the Free Peoples have to generate, in order to keep whomever has the Ring from cutting and running!

Depending on how the quest system ends up (it's kinda simple right now but they're redoing quests for launch so maybe they'll come up with more fun stuff), I might be interested hopping on board as a quest guy. Unless of course rather than a campaign you're thinking of making it mostly a sandbox without quests

That was why I was thinking if the ring dramatically improved defence rating when wielded it would create a sort of super-combatant. A weaker character like Frodo wouldn't have his defence rating pushed so he was unstoppable but a naturally strong character like Sauron or Saruman would end up being a one-character army and with the ring could conquer Middle Earth.

The corruption side of things I wouldn't worry about. If you use it, it is making Sauron stronger by boosting his essence each time if the using character is good. The characters in the story who were tempted to use the ring weren't concerned about the short term. They were concerned about the corruption of power over the long term. In game terms this could be ignored.

Nazgul could have power over the ring such as their attack strength goes up if the ring is wielded while in a tactical battle situation.

Well, I want to do both. Ideally, there will be at least two campaigns, one good and one evil. And then maybe that could be expanded so each major faction has a campaign (ie, Gondor has one, Rohan has one, Sauron, Saruman, etc). And then depending on how the Ring ends up working, it may need quests of its own. I'd like to find a way to implement the Ring in the sandbox mode as well, but we'll see how well that works out. So yeah, if you want to help out with quests, that would be awesome!

The problem I have with that is that it doesn't capture the "feeling" of the Ring, IMO. If all the Ring does is give you some bonuses, it wouldn't be the One Ring. The Ring shouldn't just be an "insta-win item," which is where I see your suggestion going. Giving Sauron essence when other players use it doesn't really work, unless essence is completely re-worked as well (a possiblity) since it's already been established that magic won't play much of a role.

I kind of like Yestin's idea of breaking all alliances, but that doesn't seem like enough for me. It's certainly a step in the right direction, though.

I think the more you use the ring the higher the chance of having a non-standard game over (ie you lose because your ring bearer was corrupted by the power of the ring) in the case of multiplayer every use would be a risk and each successive use would increase the risk. On corruption that player would be removed from the game and replaced with an AI but the AI would use the ring to the full.