I find it funny that Fox is 'conservative' , yet MSNBC is 'left wing'. You make it sound like Fox is relatively balanced ( sort of a 'conservative' CNN? ) and yet MSNBC is one step away from Pravda. MSNBC and Fox are two sides of the same coin. If MSNBC is 'left wing' , Fox is 'Right wing'

You're right , brad . We'll probably have to call it as it is and agree to disagree

Has a thread like this ever changed anyone's minds?  Here is my take anyway. 

No one here is friends with either candidate (at least I don't think so) so you can't honestly judge who they are personally.  And, no, you can't research it because both sides have their spin on it and as human beings, people will tend to believe whatever fits their mind set.  So you need to take a broader look at the candidates.

It seems to me that McCain camp is saying don't vote for Obama because of who he is. But, how do you know who he is if you never met him?  If he was such a bad person with ties to terrorism, how did he get to be a US senator?  Where was the outrage when he was running for senate.  Where was the outrage up until a week ago?  The Ayers connection has been around for awhile and if it was a big deal it would have been brought up as soon as Obama was nominated.  The fact that the campaign is bringing this up a month before the election when McCain's poll numbers have been dropping makes the argument tainted and needs to be tossed out with all the other tainted "facts".  This is why it becomes hard for independent undecided voters to follow this tactic and why I think it's not working.  Supporting McCain because you think Obama is a terrorist or makes bad choices becomes a less creditable argument.

Obama supporters are voting for Obama because of his policies, not because they hate McCain as a person or don't trust him.  So the choice is simpler for them.

My final verdict is that a person's first choice for president should come from their positions on the issues because that is clear to everyone.  Voting on a person's "character" is second because a person's "character" doesn't give as much insight into the policies they want to implement.

End of line.

Well said TheMasterBaron. 

I also think there will be voters who will support McCain because he is basically decent, believes in himself and the US, is a Veteran and even the fact that he is more of a hawk than Obama.  Although supporting McCain isn't my personal choice, I don't think that supporting a candidate for "honest" reasons (policies) is limited to Obama.

This is not directed at "anyone" in particular.

You know....the things that bothers me the most at every election..since I already know what politicians are like...crooks/liars/spin doctors/ or sympathy seekers (as in...I was a POW (Sorry....part of war)...yet we all forget about the others that came home and are still POW's of sorts since we treat them all like shit instead of the heros they are!) who all at some point in time have had some dealings with terrorists in one way or another which is not news...is how we always seem to attach a label of some kind to each other...left wing...right wing...prick in the middle...as though you actually know what the other person is thinking.

Everyone claims to know better and have all the facts the other guy doesn't...but its funny how "after" the elections is when we really learn about these people...but then its to late. Stop it already!!! Your Americans! Enough with the labels!!!! Who started this label crap anyway? When are we going to start working together as Americans to save this country from the tyrants and crook running it into the ground? Did everyone forget that "We the people" are suppose to be making this country great!...NOT the politicians! But the sad fact is...they stopped listening to us...and just do what they want or what "they" think we need. But who can blame them...everyone else fell asleep or just stopped caring about the future or your children's future. This is not the America I remember and felt proud of as a child. Apathy has reared its ugly head!

I really don't feel sorry for anyone who's losing money over what's going on now...except the poor. And I hate to say it...but I think a full blown depression would be the best thing to happen to this country...maybe then people will wake the hell up and start actually thinking again. These TV sound bytes have turned people into zombies.

I for one am really fed up with hearing from these candidates about what the other guy did...I want to know what they are going to do. How in the hell can anyone make any kind of informed decision when they all act like children. Show me someone with some "genuine" integrity...honesty...plans that make some real sense...tell me that your going to try and do something but at the same time be honest about it and tell me how hard it may be to do. Stop telling me what you think I want to hear and tell me what I need to hear...tell me about the hard choices that "need" to be made...don't stand there all puffy chested lying to me in your speech written by someone else about how your going to fix something when you know damn well you won't be able to do it. And start paying more attention to the poor in this country. Helping them will help this country!!!

You know what.....I'm really just fed up with this country and the people in it anymore. Why does everyone just blindly accept the unqualified candidates they offer up to us to run this country and not just say...NO...come up with someone better? Why aren't these peoples backgrounds and health records gone over with a fine tooth comb? Why do they drug test someone working a 7-11 but not them? Why are they not held to the same laws as the rest of us? Why do we spend 30 million to impeach a president for diddling a government clerk....but do nothing to one that...directly responsible or not...used a sledge hammer to drive this economy into the ground and outright lied to us about this so called threat that never existed. Where's Bin Laden? Where's the WMD'?

Where's the tar and feathers!!!!!!?

I haven't called anyone any names. I am not a McCain/Palin supporter nor am I a Obama/Biden supporter.

Calling people names like "bitch" is hateful.

No, there was an ongoing war...Japan declared wae on the US by bombing Pearl Harbor, and Germany invited the US into the European conflict by sinking US Shipping in the Atlantic.  The US was within its right to defend itself and, in partnership with its allies, did what was necessary to end the ability of both Japan and Germany to wage war... and thus it was not the aggressor, the forces were not invasionary, and the forces which remained in those countries subsequent to the war were not occupational, but to help rebuild/establish regional security.

The same can NOT be said for the INVASION of Iraq!  The US was the aggressor, it presence was uninvited, and the remaining forces were certainly occupational until such time it became patently obvious the US had exacerbated a humanitarian crisis and had created political instability in the region by removing the only local power that Iran feared.  Irrespective of what the World thought of Saddam Hussein's regime, removing it has created a political/military vacuum in the region which Iran has used to its advantage to become more prominent and bold... and thus the US will find it increasingly difficult to extricate itself from Iraq.

I don't give a stuff what anyone says, the invasion of Iraq was wrong on so many counts.  Bush was completely clueless about Iraqi demographics, its religious and cultural differences, and he totally misread the Iraqi' peoples reaction/response to 'so-say 'being 'saved' from Saddam.  The majority of Iraqis now despise the US, instead of just having a sometimes dislike/distrust of it.... no thanks to Bush

Quoting myself elsewhere:

I have no hatred for Obama or Biden, but I sure disagree with their political philosophy & positions.  The hatred for Palin, not simply disagreements with her past actions or positions, is so over-the-top, exposing the intellectual arrogance of the left.  Biden is a much bigger bufoon than Palin if you ask me - he's uninformed, makes gaffe after gaffe after gaffe, is wrong on his history half the time (and not just fuzzy little details), and he's the one the Dems tout as the experienced, knowledgeable, level-headed mentor BO can turn to when his inexperience requires it.  He's shown me that despite all his years in politics & in DC, he hasn't cared enough to learn squat, not even about the Constitution under which he serves.

I'm not excited, nor need to 'calm down'.

I just happen to think the rules against personal attacks apply to everyone, not just 'anyone here'.

BTW, does that 'anyone here' mean 'presently logged in', 'a current member', or 'someone on this particular thread'?

If that's the way it's to be played, I can sling shit with the best of them. Easy enough to wait until your back is turned.

i want to take a few seconds tio apologize to anyone who works in the american healthcare system. i made a comment a few pages back stating the healthcare in the us sucks. i did not mean the actual healthcare received. i was talking about the healthcare insurance we deal with daily. again, my apologies and i sincerely hope i did not offend anyone.

I'm one of those you are referring to, Snides, & not only did I take no offense, I happen to agree with you.  I just don't believe putting our incompetent government completely in charge of it is the way to fix what's broken.  It's the incremental accumulation of bureaucratic control & perverse incentives that has screwed it up so badly in the first place.  It is hard to describe to those who don't have to deal with it every day, but the inefficiencies and obstacles to helping people that exist even today are mind-boggling enough.  Healthcare today is a combination of a steamroller of progressively more finely parsed algorithmic control mechanisms & gotcha games (existing only for the benefit of career bureaucrats who must continuously invent new ways to justify their wheel-spinning existence) which have paved the way for a relatively simple imposition of Massively Centralized Micromanagement, otherwise known as health care brought to you by the Ministry of Health.  We didn't win the Cold War, truth be known.  The Soviets just rope-a-doped us into adopting their system.

anyone who's a member of WC , in the context of not attacking people on WC directly in WC, like I won't attack you.

Mind you , I wouldn't go calling the waaambulance to the admins if someone did it to me , I can take care of myself, thanks.

There is no comparison between the events of WW2 and today.  We preepmtively invaded a country we had already defanged and declawed a decade earlier simply to complete Bush Jr.'s daddy issues, to hand a trillion dollars of graft to Buscho cronies, and in the hopes that we could tap that precious oil.

To compare a proven intellectual with decades of public service like Biden with a local beauty queen turned jerkwater governor like Palin is like comparing King Dufus Bush with a Rhodes Scholar like Bill Clinton.  The only thing they have in common is a job position/application.  The rest is night and day.

To hear anyone talking about the occasional verbal gaffe after 8 years of the Chimp in Charge is just ludicrous. 

Palin is just Bush in drag and I've had enough of intellectually challenged ideologues in the White House for one lifetime, thanks.  And so has the country I suspect.  We ALL can't take much more of their kind of leadership.

Your opinion only.  One not so strongly supported by Biden's own words & acts.

Occasional?  As in practically every time he opens his mouth.

Ah, I see .. anyone who is not a member of WC is fair game. By your measure you can be as nasty as you want with personal attacks towards anyone not a member of WC.

I find your attitude not only distasteful but divisive.

As far as hatred goes, it seems just reading on this thread that the hatred is mostly Obama supporters attacking everyone else.

Let's see, Bush is an idiot. Palin is an idiot/bitch. McCain is a bad guy. Republicans are stupid. Whatever.

To conservatives, such as myself, I can assure you we have every bit as much distaste for Obama and Biden as some of you have for Bush or Palin.  The difference is that we seem to be able to behave more civilly most of the time.

You can link to a YouTube video of a bunch of hateful McCains supporters all you want but I see vitriol from liberals/Democrats/leftwingers pretty much every day on the net - including this thread.

You know, the ironic thing is, if ONLY people who pay federal income taxes could vote, McCain would win by a landslide. The 30% of Americans who don't pay federal income taxes are so overwhelmingly for Obama that it completely tilts the system.  In 2004, for example, Kerry won net tax getters (i.e. people who not only don't pay taxes but get money back) 63 to 36.

So next time you get tempted of implying that Bush supporters or Republicans or conservatives are somehow brainwashed or stupid or whatever, let's bear in mind that when it comes to the people who actually pay the bills, they tend to vote Republican.

McCain's going to lose because he doesn't get very broad support (I won't vote for McCain). But that's certainly not an endorsement of Obama.

Not sure where your getting this "statistic".  As far as I know voting is still anonymous by law and such statistics are not being collected at the voting booth.

I'm sorry, Brad, but your argument (besides being a deliberately inaccurate use of statistics) is entire selfish and self-centered in the worst way.  It also defines everything that's wrong the today's GOP and why I, and MANY others, have turned away.  They've squeezed so much blood out of America that they've literally broken the middle class.

As a contrast, let me point out that the people who work for me earn six figure salaries to start. And they, and myself, are overwhelmingly pro-Obama.  Sure a couple of them are Ayn Rand types, but I'm much more of a Warren Buffet person myself, in that I don't mind paying taxes.  This country has been very good to me and as long as I see my money being spent wisely and for the common good, I don't have any problem chipping in my fair share.

But under this administration we have seen ALL of our dollars (rich and poor) drop to nearly 1/2 their value.  You're beginning to see the delayed inflation of that right now, in everything you buy.  We've seen the health care premiums we pay as employers go through the roof, while benefits have gone to utter shit - so we're eating more cost and losing morale...a very bad recipe indeed.  We've watched the deficit under this "president" become higher than all of the previous Presidents combined.  And we've seen 4,000+ of our troops die in a needless war for Cheney's graft while the real saboteurs of our nation, at home and abroad, lounge around unscathed and unpunished.

If this was the McCain of 2000, before he sold his soul for one last chance at the brass ring, you might have something.  But he isn't that man anymore.  Obama is the American Dream personified and that, as a businessman speaking, is what this country is sorely lacking right now.

The American Dream itself is in danger, Brad. And you, of all the businessmen I know, should be most wary of the current state of affairs.  For your business is clearly a luxury item, not a necessity, to anyone..well except for me, I'd die without being able to work my way and you guys, bless you, make that possible.  :)   But seriously, your products are on the frontline of the dispensible disposable income scale and I'd think that seeing consumer confidence return (and hence the stock market) might be higher on your list of priorities than a 1-2% income shift.  After all, who cares if your taxes are cut yet again if you aren't making any money?

I'd rather make a LOT more money and pay a wee bit more in taxes.  But then again, I never was a "penny wise, pound foolish" kind of person.  Funny thing, only one of the billionaires I have worked with would disagree with me on this...and he inherited his money.  Ahem.

Oh, and as always, I would die to protect your right to express the exact opposite opinion of myself and I respect you and your accomplishments. 

Well I gotta say.. if I made 200,000+ a year I would definitely be a die hard Republican hands down  lol  

btw.. I do pay taxes 

Um, let's see... maybe it's the footage of thousands of placard carrying Iraqis chanting "US Go HOME"... maybe it's because US forces are frequently targeted than Brit or other forces... maybe it's because Iraqi parliamentarians are complaining the majority of their constituents want the US out of Iraq... and maybe it's because many Iraqis feel they are worse off since the US invasion.

I mean, it's not like the Iraqis make it a secret they do not like, trust or respect the US Gov't and/or forces.  Sadly, they are very much in a Catch-22 situation, though many of them don't realise it.  The removal of Saddam Hussein's regime has greated a huge political/power vacuum in the region, and if the US were to pull out now, Iran would become a much greater threat, not only to Iraq, but also to Israel and other, more moderate Arab states.  While some Iraqis may not grasp/understand this, there are many who do, and thus resent the US for replacing on evil with a much greater threat.

Whether or not we liked Saddam Hussein, his strong-arm regime was a major, if not the primary deterrent to probably greater evils, given the first gulf war put paid to Saddam's aspriartions to become a nuclear power, stockpile WMD's or even have an airforce. Despite his inability to actually wage a full-scale war, however, Saddam Hussein's regime was still the one power Iran feared to attack/engage in a conflict, and thus it stood between Iran and weaker Middle Eastern states.

Do you have ANY sane reason to back that up? Or just a bunch of liberal finger-pointing that conservatives are so good at?

And there it is! BLAME THE LIBERAL MEDIA!

See, it's easy for the liberals to blame conservatives because they've run the country like total shit for eight years. But every time I see a conservative blame the liberals I just have to laugh. What exactly are you blaming? The legislative branch that's been outside of conservative control for a year and a half? Eight years of utter incompetence and disregard for our country's well-being, over half the country's support, and you'd still rather blame a political minority than the obvious.

If anything, I'd never vote republican because I've never got the impression that any of them, supporters or otherwise, feels they need to be held accountable for anything they do. Whether it's blaming the "Liberal _____" in every political discussion or for use as a scapegoat, or for using the Bible as justification to start wars. It's always everyone else's fault.

Just saw Sarah Palin on the news in damage control, backburning against the burning forest that is the Troopergate investigation into her abuse of power as Alaskan Governor... which of course she denies.

Again, there was a cloud of smoke shrouding the whole issue... but I guess that's what people do when they wish to conceal what they're really doing/have done, rely on smoke and mirrors to distract observers.

Hmmm, must admit that I'm confused and not so sure anymore. Palin's body language, facial expressions and hestitant pauses in interviews tell me she's lying and as guilty as hell... but the very same body language, facial expresions and 'let me think about that one' pauses says she's innocent by reason of diminished responsibility, being she frequently comes across as vague, clueless and far from being the brightest button in the tin.

She's not alone there, tho... quite a few politicians suffer that affliction.  Hmmm, I wonder if Sarah Palin is from the same gene pool as George Dubbya himself... given the often both look like they've lost their cue cards/teleprompters and give the impression they're making it up as they go along.

Wee bit OT, but just to clarify....currently there are 3.3 million members of Stardock's sites, each of whom is obliged NOT to publicly use said sites to attack, defame or otherwise insult his/her FELLOW members.

It's a condition of membership/use of these sites....:)

I say ban political parties.  They don't do much for uniting our country and bring out the worst in us every 4 years.

Yes indeed!  Hard to beleive but there actually was a time when the government functioned reasonably well and there were no parties!