In Indonesia here, we suffer from high internet cost (had an internet bill worth US$2000= 26GB of download), and I actually tried to find any original games to buy so i can play multi player games. I asked everywhere and no one seems to know anything about "originals". I still got originals from when i stayed in Thailand though.

This just sucks when new games come out. Every store sells only pirated games for a price so that sucks too. Oh I'm in Surabaya, not the capital Jakarta.
-For some reason my Credit and Debit cards Fails on online shopping, double the minus.-

The only thing this will acomplish is making, pirating go under ground, example most  people I know do not use there gamming computers on internet in frist place.

computers are getting cheaper and cheaper, you could have mutil computers one for pirated games that stays off internet and one that dose downloading nad one for leigment games.

for most pirates this would probly be cheaper, then buying the games.

also then theres the whole deal with fire walls, if you do not want your DRM going cross itnerent and connecting to micrsfot or some company you would just block the program from connecting to the internet or block company from being able to connect to your interal network.

I mean this is the whole reaosn for network secureity to block unarhutzed attempts to connect to your computer no matter where it is from.

 

main problem with DRM is fact that it just dose not work, it will always be behind the times no matter what or have faults.

othere probelm with DRM is fact that some countrys vview DRM as illeage in its self.

there are alot of countrys that have diffrent copyright laws where laws we have here in USA do not apply.

which is really way it should be no one country or mutl countrys should have right to froce othere countyrs or people to do things on them.

I am not saying I am condoing anything here.

but then theres also people who download a game find out it sucks and wont buy.

I will say one game where I wish I would done that with dungeon lords, that game was unfinished, quest where not completed, no detail, game was only 45% done.

I bought game I soon gave it away if I would have downloaded it cracked it and tryed it and found out it was pice of crape I would never bought it.

there are alot of people who pirate game to try it full verison find out they dont like it remove it or delet it and then dont buy it.

this type of pirating if you call it that only hurts people who put out crappy games.

the othere issue with most people who pirate is cost, lets face it lord of the rings was a mutil billion dollar production took years, the movie I got frist lord of the rings movie for 29$ in bestbuy all buy its self when it frist came out brand new on day it came out.

a game that in gernal takes less money then a movie like that should not run 3 times as much.

like im not supporting any piracy or anything these are just things that pirates think of and what will happen with DRM if it gose internet checking.

When it sells 10 times less copies, 3 times the price is cheap. Pricing is determined on the number of copies likely to be sold compared to what the Market is prepared to pay. It has nothing to do with what it cost to make - only insofar that the latter determines an irreducible minimum price for normal trading.

In regard to the general topic,

Any software Pirate who made an original item (of any nature) for $1 selling at 20% profit in their own non-pirate activities, then found the Market is prepared to pay $10 for it because of its content, will soon forget their "principles" and reprice from $1.20 to $10 ........

The whole silly saga boils down to self interest - no matter what rationalisation anyone uses. Lets cut the waffle on this one:

- A creator has the right to charge what they like when they like under whatever conditions they like for their product - Period - its their's, no-one else's. Get it wrong in any aspect of that, they go out of business, simple.
- Pirating software is theft - Period. Pirate it - expect to get your Butt kicked. Dont like that? Vote to change the Law. Cant Vote? Wait until you can - "life's a Bitch then you die".

All this self seeking, self interest "intellectual" rationailsation of an Illegal activity is waffle - we all know it is. Lets cut the garbage in an attempt to go to bed with a warm feeling.

If individuals Pirate software, they can expect to get their butt kicked, and should leave the Ego at home where it belongs

Period.

Regards
Zy

Wrong, check the law book - it's not defined as theft , of course its all technical but you can't call it theft by the law.

Only then someone who can do it for $2 realises they could make a fortune by pricing their version at $9, taking almost all the market share from the first one, and prices are driven down



And the problem with this is that it's not the pirates who "get their butt kicked", it's the people who legally purchase a copy of the game to play, and find that they have to put up with restrictions on how many times it can be installed, and are prevented from playing it without an internet connection, etc. etc. - that's the problem I have with DRM, it doesn't do much to hurt the pirates, and does a lot to hurt those who want to purchase a copy legally. I mean take the '3 installations max' rule that is coming out/come out. What possible argument is there in favour of that? I mean if a game is bugged, one solution is to uninstall the game, and re-install it...only you can't do that with this, because if you do, you end up unable to play the game at all! Regardless of what your opinion of pirating is, it is mad to introduce such draconian measures to stop it, if it will only hurt your customers. The end result? You make piracy more attractive since it will come without all these restrictions, and more people will use it. Is that wrong? Well you could argue it's no worse than selling a game to someone without being clear that you're actually just letting them 'rent' it for 3 installs, and after that they have to come back to you and ask for more.

I find it unbelievable that companies would think this is a good thing though, since it will lose them revenue. That is what is so hard to comprehend about all the DRM being introduced - companies are spending money to ensure that they have reduced sales! There must be some serious informational asymmetries involved for EA to think this is all a good thing...

Totally agree.

Re DRM - we are on the same page, I think. My only feeling is that the "smoke and mirrors" on pirating should not use the clear nonsense behind current DRM to justify pirating - pirating is pirating, whichever way anyone spins it.

If the current DRM is wrong, and I believe it is badly implemented, then we fix that - we dont use that as a so called "excuse" to pirate.




Excellent - isnt that what the Free Market and competition is all about? Thats why in the long run the Free Market works best without Regulation. It is easy to distort it in the short term - and easy to make up a short term rationale for interference - but the long term consequencies of interference in a Free Market dynamic are always far far worse than short term gratification.

Regards
Zy

Usually yes, although you do of course have exceptions arising from market imperfections which can provide a case for government interference (although personally I'm of the view that often even if such intervention is well intentioned, with the government being fairly inept at things and also not having all the information themselves, they can often make a bad situation worse!)

Anyway it sounds like we broadly agree on most of the issues; I also see piracy as wrong (and people caught of it deserving of punishment), but I would make the exception that someone who purchases a legal copy of a game and then uses a pirated copy of that game (e.g. due to DRM preventing them say reinstalling their legal copy) shouldn't be punished (even if it is technically illegal).

I'd also agree the 'try before you buy' argument sometimes used to justify piracy is a dangerous/flawed one - that's what demo's are for, and if a company thinks such an approach will increase their sales, then they can always offer an improved demo, and it shouldn't be an excuse to justify piracy if they don't.

Thats a fair call, you make a good point, I had not thought of that angle, and I agree, it would be silly to prosecute.

Regards
Zy

It would be impossible to prosecute since no law is violated.
In US however due to DMCA you can prosecute the creator of the crack.

Precisely



And so they should

Regards
Zy

If they put that to trial, even if the person was guilty as hell, I'd acquit. As far as I am concerned, jurors have to right to acquit guilty people if they think th elaw is wrong.

It depends, for now I have 3 reasons to use a crack :
1. When no demo available - too many crap released to I have to "test" first .
2. I hate inserting CD/DVDs all the time.
3. The damn game is not available in my country (this one really sux :))

So if they "fix" all 3 I would agree with you but until then cracks often used by valid buyers of the games and we do need them.

P.S.: Finally found a way to "trick" the system and perches "Mass Effect" using ClickAndBuy , unlike PayPal and credit card this method does not check your country.





If I am not mistaken jurors act within instructions provided by judge - they can't ignore law they can just deside if person guilty without reasonable doubt or not.

One of the reasons I am a fan of the growth online distribution. On another thread a guy from China ("mightygobi") came here to download the game, he's virtually camped here now - loves the place, which is great as he is now giving a facinating perspective on everyday life in China

See "The China Thread" in Off Topic category.

Online distribution can have amazing side effects.

Regards
Zy

Any Enduser license for software includes a paragraf which forbids manipulating the software/files. Using a crack or a pirated version(which got cracked) is aquivelnt to this. So you are violating the enduser license.

Country codes is one thing I am very much against. IMHO it's companies creating their own laws, and IMHO it hurts trade and hurts economies.

This is also the case with nearly all forms of DRM: It completely ignores what Copyright law really is, and creates new rules that do not exist under current laws.

Who reads EULA's? I certainly don't, they would probably stop me from buying. If you want to know what is wrong with the software and gaming industry, read the EULA.

The software and gaming industry are using DRM and EULA to allow them to produce substandard quality and jack up price's.

I was just making the point that you can get punished only because of using a crack.
Of course, this will hardly happen because of various reasons. But noone should illude himself by saying cracks would be legal in any kind.

EULA is a contract between you and publisher.
You can get sued for violating it if publisher finds you, find what you did and sues but using crack it's not a crime, it's just violation of contract.

I rarely read EULAs because they are absurdly long. Not only that, but you can't really expect the average person to be able to fully grasp the implications of the legalese they contain without professional advice. Out of curiosity, if you were being sued for violating an EULA, could you use the excessive complexity and length as a defence?

I don't think length and complexity would be much of a defence since most contracts are usually long and complex. You could probably get out of it since most contracts have to be signed, and usually have your name somewhere on there too. I can't say I've seen an EULA with my name attached to it, or something designating the company's signature on the thing. That said, best ask a professional if you do end up in trouble. Oh, and I accept no responsiblity if took my advice on the above or what I am going to say below, as I am not a lawyer.

As for why "piracy" is so sucessful, well I think there are a few reasons.
1. Product Quality: Basically at this current point in time, usually the pirate copy ends up being a superior product. They tend to get rid copy protection, which means no spyware, no busted disc drives (it's coming to light that most of the busted disc drives of the last few years are because of copy protection/DRM not liking burners). Hell most games end up with a performance boost by using a cracked version (Titan Quest got a 15% boost using a cracked version over the retail version). As Bioshock and Mass Effect proved, most people don't like limited activations for software either, another problem using a pirate copy avoids. Best of all, it's free. Pirates also seem to have a better support network than most companies it seems too. If a crack doesn't work, usually someone else will make a better one that does.
2. Nobody Likes a Faceless Corporation: It's true, nobody does. After all why do some pieces of paper seem to get more rights than people do? Yes a corporation's existance is based solely on paper, and/or 1's and 0's on a hard drive somewhere. It hard to feel sorry for entities that try to take away customer rights with no remorse (DRM), and try to impose a contract on people after the point of sale (EULA). Would anyone really be upset if Microsoft disappeared tomorrow? Or if EA disappeared tomorrow? Most would say "good riddance" I'd bet.
3. General Upbringing and Lifestyle: I am sure most people here can remember how their parents are always saying share your stuff with your brother/sister and how a good friend shares their stuff, plays 2 player on their video games, etc. File sharing over the internet seems to be abhorant to anti-pirates, yet I'll bet that they have borrowed a book from a library and read through it without giving the author and publisher any cash from it, not to mention all those movies they taped off the tv with their VCR back in the 1980's and 1990's, movies that they didn't pay for.

As for Frogboy's comments about the various groups coming together to make a solution to piracy? I'd personally say it's farfetched to say it'll stop it, since software has to be written to take advantage of it, and software can and will be cracked. Hardware wise, well, theres nothing a mod chip can't fix. Just look at consoles to see how easy it is to play burned software.

There is little doubt it can be done in such a way that there would be no chance of "cracking" it. What is publicly available is mere "boys toys" compared to what can be done to secure software. It would however, end up being horrendously expensive, commercially a financial nightmare, therefore pointless. Therein lies the rub, and why its pointless using commercially available DRM. It will always be cracked, they cant afford to use a fully secure method, and until they can (which they never will be able to) its silly implementing a partial solution.

Anyway, all this over a $20-50 piece of software that has a limited shelf life ? Commercially available DRM is just plain dumb, no matter what wonderfully sounding theoretical legaleese anyone can drag up for its use. Cracked software is illegal, thats for sure, but current commercially available DRM is not the answer, and frankly never will be.

Regards
Zy

I admit it, I pirated Galciv 2 with the Dark Avatar expansion.

I loved the game so much I bought it.

I try to sympathize so much with voices like Kryo about how much effort it takes to make a game, and the personal commitment to do so, and the end result of not being ENTITLED to a free copy of it.

But then I see:

- My BOUGHT copy of Splinter Cell: Double Agent - an Xbox -> PC port so atrocious, it's unplayable. Literally. It lets you save ONE game, and will overwrite it with an autosave or something, and 90% of the time you can't even LOAD that without it corrupting. The interface is utterly impossible to use with a keyboard and mouse. And no patch has ever been made to fix these issues. I've never finished the game, because I've had to restart at the beginning of whole levels so often, it wasn't worth it.

Did the developers put their heart and soul into this game? Maybe. But to be honest, I fucking hate them. If I knew where they lived I'd set fire to their homes. If I'm not entitled to a free game, why are developers entitled to free money? Using Ctrl-C + Ctrl-V and sticking PC-DVD stickers on the case doesn't make it a PC game. I PAID for a PC game, and I got the laziest, shittiest port I've ever seen. There was no personal effort in that game. If any human souls were involved in that atrocity, they don't DESERVE my money, because clearly to let such a heap of shit be sold with their names in the credits means they didn't care about the game either.

They felt entitled to $50, for a product I'd have paid maybe $10 to tolerate. Therefore, I feel entitled to redeem $40 from them from alt.binares.games. Is it just? Morally right? No, but it's not morally right or just to release a buggy beta of a game with zero support.

I'm a shallow, petty person, and I know about that two-wrongs bullshit. But I don't buy it, and I don't think anyone who has a clue would either. I get ANGRY when I buy a shitty port. I get MAD when I see a PC franchise turned to console retard trash, with the same pricetag on it. I would embrace the death of the entire development team of Empire Earth III. That I redeem my game value instead should be considered a favor.

So... I assume none of the moral anti-piracy people here have ever downloaded an MP3 onto their computer?



Thanks for pointing that thread out. I think it's fascinating too!

I use my primary computer mainly for general purpose computing. A computer with a built-in DRM system that allows only "approved" programs to execute would be too limiting. I'd have to move to a platform that does not utilize this kind of copyright protection.

I don't use my computer for entertainment media other than games. It's pretty much the only type of software that has given me trouble in the DRM area. I purchase my games legitimately and I absolutely avoid game software that may impact my computer's perfomance and/or functionality. There have been a few that ended up in the circular file because of DRM problems, namely StarForce.

I'm strongly against any type of DRM scheme that goes beyond the policies set by law in my country (US). A good example would be the violation most DRM schemes make by disallowing one copy of the media for personal backup. I may not purchase a game product if the DRM scheme is too draconian even if it doesn't cause any functional problems with my computer.

There are plenty of PC games out there so at this point, I can avoid excessive DRM without limiting my choice too much. If it gets to the point where all games are like this, I just won't play computer games anymore.

I think there's a balance some publishers have yet to find. Right now, I believe some are erroring on the side of piracy protection. I would be an example of lost sales due to overzealous DRM. I can only hope that enough people feel this way to show these publishers the fault of their ways through the bottom line. Unfortunately, sometimes you buy a game only to find it's a problem, then you've lost your vote. In that case, piracy seems justified.

- Craig