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PC game piracy hurts us all

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PC game piracy hurts us all

from JoeUser Forums

At the end of the day, the people who "do stuff" will always have the advantage over the people who "don't do stuff".  Pirates are slowly motivating ever increasing levels of DRM and in time, I hate to say it, DRM is going to win.  That's because the people motivated to make the DRM work (the people who do stuff) greatly outnumber the motivation of the people who don't do stuff. 

One can easily picture a future in 5 years in which the telecoms, the PC makers, the OS makers, and the software makers have teamed up (and you only need any two of them to do so) to eliminate unauthorized usage of a given piece of IP. If you don't think it can be done, then you probably don't have much experience in writing software. The DRM and copy protection of today is piddly 1-party solutions. 

The DRM of tomorrow will involve DRM parternships where one piece of protect IP can key itself off another. Thus, if even one item on your system is pirated (whether it be cracked or not) it will get foiled as long as there is one item in the system that you use that isn't cracked (whether it be the OS or something in your hardware or whatever).  It will, as a practical matter, make piracy virtually impossible.

Computer games and video will likely be the first two targets because piracy of them is so rampant.  A pirated copy of something doesn't mean it's a lost sale. But piracy does cause lost sales.  Moreover, it's just incredibly frustrating to see people using the fruits of your labor as if they were somehow entitled to it.

I have long been and continue to be a big proponent of alternative ways to increase sales. I don't like piracy being blamed for the failure of a game because it tends to obscure more relevant issues which prevent us, as an industry, from improving what we do.  But at the same time, I don't like pirates trying to rationalize away their behavior because they do cost sales. I've seen people in our forums over the years boldly admit they're pirating our game but that they are willing to buy it if we add X or Y to it -- as if it's a negotiation. 

I don't like DRM.  But the pirates are ensuring that our future is going to be full of it because at the end of the day, the people who make stuff are going to protect themselves.  It's only a question of when and how intensive the DRM will get. And that's something only the pirates can change -- if you're using a pirated piece of software, either stop using it or buy it.

piracy torrents gaming
878,244 views 304 replies
Reply #151 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I hope EA reads your response Craig...i think Spore will be seen as the one that got away from them.....With it's Nazi like DRM i'm sure there will be more than a few active torrents touting DRM free versions of the game...if not already.
Reply #152 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The DRM issue may actually be the demise of the PC game. Spore may just prove to EA that it's not worth it. They might just say the heck with it and quit releasing PC game ports. Some publishers have already done this. They don't have to concern themselves as much with DRM for console ports. Consoles have hardware DRM that's pretty much transparent to the end user. You'll never hear a console user say, "such and such DRM scheme messed up my console." Even so, there are "chips" you can replace in your console to eliminate the copy protection. I don't know that pirating is any more or less prevalant with consoles, but for sure, DRM is not as trivial to circumvent as it is for PC software. In any case, the bottom line may just demonstrate PC games not worth the trouble with their minority market share. Fortunately, I think there will always be publishers like Stardock out there to give us PC gamers a bone or two.
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Reply #153 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Even so, there are "chips" you can replace in your console to eliminate the copy protection.


There are!! Didn't know that... ;p ;)

But you are quite correct in what you say though. Just as an example of how much the console's are taking from the PC market, have a look at the shelf space given to the console and whats given to the PC in your local games store. I'd hardly think the PC game developers would see the huge disparity in shelf space as a trivial thing.

Let's hope a few PC Devs see what SD is doing and make the switch before it is too late. :)
Reply #154 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
have a look at the shelf space given to the console and whats given to the PC in your local games store.


For games stores in particular, that's only because they can't resell PC games, and selling the same used games over and over is what they live on. If you look at a bigger electronics or department store, you'll generally see that PC games have about as much space as any one console.
Reply #155 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Ahh any one console is the key. I'd agree that the slice of the pie is about equal from any console to PC. But since the PC's are competing against the Consoles in general and not any one brand in particular i think the trend is a little more dire. The combined shelf space and/or sales of all the consoles is a worrying factor for the PC games industry, where as the consoles are fighting amongst themselves and the PC market, it's not the gang up that the PC market faces from consoles.

Shit...did that make sense.... ;p
Reply #156 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm a shallow, petty person, and I know about that two-wrongs bullshit. But I don't buy it, and I don't think anyone who has a clue would either.


I'd love to hear the logic on this one. How do we solve any problems if we keep on backstabbing each other? It's a lose-lose situation. You lose by getting increasingly crappy games, and they lose by getting their games pirated. You're not going to be getting any better games with such a lousy attitude.

In the meantime, see if you can return your game and never buy games from Ubisoft again, and tell your friends not to buy from them. In addition, perhaps hold a letter writing party and get together with your friends and write your objections down and send them to Ubisoft. Paper letters work the best; emails are too easy to ignore. If you really want to actually make an impact on the gaming industry, put some effort into something constructive and effective.

I seriously doubt getting angry in a Stardock forum is going to be noticed by Ubisoft.

So... I assume none of the moral anti-piracy people here have ever downloaded an MP3 onto their computer?


When I was young and ignorant, I did. They have since been deleted, and I just have the titles of the music I want in text files so I'm rebuilding my collection. Right now, my music is all either from iTunes or from a CD I own.

No, I do not claim to be perfect. Just in case you were wondering. Doesn't mean, however, that I ignore my morals, ethics, and the laws of my nation. That would be stupid.
Reply #157 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting BladeofSorrow, reply 22
I couldn't have said that better myself kryo... Pirates and people who use pirated software are thieves - no matter how they try to justify it.


Create better demos and people won't steal. There are way to many games that are not worth a $50 price tag when released. The same can be said about music. Not all products are created equally and this is reflected in all markets except for video gaming and music.

I can walk into Wal-Mart and choose whether or not I want a name brand product or an off brand product. Can I do this with video games? No, I cannot.

I can walk onto a car lot and choose what kind of car I want for what price, all with various options. Can I do this with video games? Nope.


Why are the two industries that shout the loudest about theft still using terrible marketing tactics? It's very bad business to consider a bug filled, unfinished product to be the same price as one that isn't filled with bugs. The biggest reason for this is honesty with developers and this is the biggest reason why companies like Stardock, Mythic, and Valve have very loyal fanbases.

The whole piracy thing became big when game companies started releasing less than stellar products for the same prices that perfect games were being sold for. Note how I said it didn't start there. Piracy has always been a factor, just not a very big one until, about, 95 when game companies decided "Hey, we can release this product sooner with less features for the same price!" This back fired and now these companies, the same ones who still practice this, cry that piracy is ruining the industry.

That really isn't true at all. Release a quality product, gain more money. There are a ton of effective ways to secure your game for a long while. One is to take the Steam approach, another is to take the MMO approach, and the other is to not care about DRM and be honest with the consumer and to put honest prices on the product you have created.

We're seeing this with casual games on all platforms and, hopefully, we'll see this very soon with the bigger titles as well.

Until then, I'll be downloading games as an actual working demo of the product. If I like it, I'll go buy it. If I don't, it won't get played and will be deleted. Fairly simple.

Oh, also, this DRM crap is more than just anti-piracy stuffs. Have a read of this here (as well as all of the provided links) for one of the BIGGEST reasons people pirate things. http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2005/10/drm_crippled_cd.html

Reply #158 from Sins Forums Top
There are way to many games that are not worth a $50 price tag when released.

Quoted for truth...
Reply #159 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting kryo, reply 20
I'm sure they're concerned that I'm not giving them money. No idea why I would care about that. I still haven't taken anything from them, so it isn't stealing... It's okay to infringe a copyright if you weren't going to buy it anyway

I'd argue the point, but I'm just dumbfounded by how utterly naive, selfish, and willfully ignorant that entire post is.


It takes effort to make the product. The cost of reproduction or lack thereof is irrelevant and does not negate the effort of the initial act of creation, or the rights of those involved to receive compensation. As a non-essential product you have absolutely zero right to it on any terms other than those set by the creator.

This is the very foundation which permits people to make creative works for a living in the first place; the end result of a world where your beliefs were true (all intangible creations are free) would be one where the only games, entertainment, and art are those made by hobbyists. That means nothing would likely be created that couldn't be done by small groups at minimal cost. More specifically, it would be the end of console games, and PC games would be limited to small-scale projects doable by people in their spare time. Those that do exist would suffer from volunteer-only support, spontaneous abandonment due to "real life" concerns of the creators, and simple burnout before many projects even get finished.

If you dislike the terms, you have the option to do without--claiming that you would not compensate the creator anyway is no justification. It only proves that you've never attempted to make a living from creative work, and think little of those who have.
I agree with you to a point.  There are many who do creative work that is possitive.  Worthy hard work on an amazing product.  What about those companies who put out products that aren't what was promised?  One paper you get A but in actuall fact you spent money on Z an unfinished broken product. 

So how does the client protect himself from the possible fraught of the creator?  Share it then if good he or she will buy the original. Does that mean the gamer trying out the product to see if its legit a pirate even in the end he or she buys it?

Many distributers don't take returns on the product you sell.  They only accept exchanges and within a givin time limit.

Here is a true story.

 2 years ago I bought a special edition directors cut of Dune movie.  Double sided DVD fully features blaw blaw blaw.

I put it into my self for with the rest of my collection.  6 months later I decided to watch it. I put it in and tried the move the orginal version unedited.  Half the movie didn't work it was corrupted.  I switch side to the directors cut verions and it was even worse than the other. 

Here I have a movie by Universal not working brand new just opened yet 6 months on my self.

I called Bestbuy they refused to exchange it because time limit expired on their policy.

I called Universal they said because I didn't directly buy if from them they can't do nothing. However it is from them who odd?  But they're were willing to sell me another DVD. Right not happing!

So you know what I did. My uncle had a the same dvd and his worked. I burn myself a copy.  Am I a pirate?  I not. I can watch the movie anytime. 

It nice that you try to defend your rights and I repect your rights but you have understand not all producers respect end users rights also.  How do you find a balance...?  You can't because you have extremes on both side.  Right now these two extremes are growning.

Reply #161 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I've been in lots of arguments over piracy online, and at work.  I'm a programmer and it's extra sad when people I work with think it's OK to pirate and have collections of pirated games and videos.  We make our living off of creating software and they think it's ok to steal it.  Does.  Not.  Compute.

The justifications people give for doing the small time piracy (torrent kinds of stuff, not mass producing for profit) are usually pretty ridiculous and just boil down lacking a spine/morals and the fact that pirating is so easy to get away with.

 

Reply #162 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

So you know what I did. My uncle had a the same dvd and his worked. I burn myself a copy. Am I a pirate? I not. I can watch the movie anytime.

I'd tend to agree. You bought a copy, you're entitled to it regardless the state of the media it came on (in the case of a DVD, there's no EULA to get involved, but that's another discussion). Though the DMCA may say otherwise (not a fan of it), I'd say that anyone getting a copy to replace or backup a damaged legitimate one is perfectly within their rights. This is one of the reasons that we let people register their stuff and redownload it in its entirety, even if they bought at retail.

 

I agree with you to a point. There are many who do creative work that is possitive. Worthy hard work on an amazing product. What about those companies who put out products that aren't what was promised? One paper you get A but in actuall fact you spent money on Z an unfinished broken product.

So how does the client protect himself from the possible fraught of the creator? Share it then if good he or she will buy the original. Does that mean the gamer trying out the product to see if its legit a pirate even in the end he or she buys it?

More likely the quality of the product is not so much the fault of the people who actually created it (who do deserve their pay), but of poor management or publishing practices (rushing it out, etc.). The best thing to do is to avoid spur-of-the-moment purchases, read reviews and discussions first. If a company burns you, then don't buy their stuff or be very cautious before doing so again (fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me).

If you feel you got ripped off, that gives you no right to help other people take their work without paying; just spread the word that it's a bad product so they don't buy *or* play it. Piracy will just be a statistic that they use to justify their poor behavior.

Reply #163 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I'm a painfully honest person when it comes to software, my current game count including a few ps2 and a whooping 2 game cube games is 292 i'm sure i have more pc games then the local EB Games shop :)

What sucks the most in my eyes is copy protection schemes that cause me the legit buyer major problems, like bioshocks rootkit(not that it has caused me any noticable problems but judging from the forum many people had problems), these copy protections does nothing for the hardcore hackers/crackers, the latest stuff that requires an internet connection to play an offline singleplayer game like mass effect also makes me wonder.

I own stuff like visual studio 2005, office 2007, vista, lightwave 9.5 and the price of these programs sure makes me in someway understand the pirating not to mention upgrade costs, visual studio 2008 costs 2/3 of the full price if i get an upgrade and well my economy is screwed as it is :) guess i don't get that one for a while.

By the way is there anyway to get patch 2.5 for galciv II on os2? i remember having it but it is on a tape that i can't access anymore and i just installed the game on my laptop running Ecomstation 1.2

Reply #164 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I pirated Galactic Civilizations for a short time period. Had never heard of the game before that. And now I have bought it.

Simply put, some times "piracy" does the business good. Yes, given, the majority of times it doesnt work out so well. But it did in this case.

Reply #165 from Stardock Forums Top

I'm with the people who state that piracy really exploded with the boom of just incredibly awful games that hit in the late nineties, where publishers dropped quality for quick profits.  It isn't just one burn, it's multiple ones.  There was just a real deluge of crap games and they haven't stopped coming. Half-arsed PC ports from consoles (Oblivion - total waste of fifty bucks, only mods saved that thing), games from an old series swallowed up by a new company and turned into garbage despite graphics and cutscenes (Command and Conquer 3 - what a waste of a brand!), Games that are missing something until the expansion pack that had content that should have been in the game in the first place (C&C Generals, most EA games), or buggy "beta" software, like Assassin's Creed, or so many others.

 

And then you have software where the demo is just the best part whereas the part you spend the most time in is awful (Spore - the space phase is monotonous and not at all as advertised!)

When companies do these things, they create many more future pirates.  The cure to piracy is not DRM - it's quality games, customer service, and support.  It's essentially, Stardock! :D :D

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Reply #166 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Just bought myself sins of a solar empire, never really been much for rts games but i own  a few like alpha centauri, dark omen, project earth, homeworld so might as well use em :)

gamecount now up to 294 :)

And for me at least coming home with your new software and opening the box, reading the manual checking out the contents is almost the funniest part :) to bad games now days tend to come with a manual at 5 pages then there is a pdf on the disc, anyone remember games like falcon 3/4 with a few hundred pages thick manual in the box.
I remember when i bought my first development tools back in the 90's i guess, it was borland C++ 3.0 and the box was filled with books, when i bought ibm's visualage c++ 4 a few years ago it had a quick installation guide and nothing else, total bummer :)

Reply #167 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Nothing really to say to this thread except I bought both Sins of a Solar Empire and all of the Galciv 2 saga and am happy with the purchase.  Nice to see it's not crippled with lame DRM.  I didn't buy Spore because I do not support companies who use such a drastic copy protection scheme. 

Anyway, I support Stardock with my hard earned bucks and appreciate their efforts. 

Reply #168 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Peer DRM is highly unlikely to work because there's too big a market for nonPeer DRM to make it work.  Case in point: Region-specific DVDs.

One of the main reasons region-specific DVDs and players that play them aren't very common outside the West these days is because it doesn't work.

China and the entirety of the East and South Asian sphere has such a vast pool of underpaid skilled workers with nothing better to do that not only are they able to crack software - they crack hardware, too.  Hardware that can play pirated software has an unbeatable edge in a market where pirated software is the norm, not the outlier.

 

Now, if we're talking ethics, let's talk ethics.  Is it right that a Western plumber gets paid more for his work than a South Asian programmer, whose work will be used to generate hundreds of thousands of dollars that never substantially benefits him in any way?

Is it fair that such a plumber gets less for his work than a Wall Street broker or a doctor?

Don't talk about fair in a capitalist society.  There's no such thing.  Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for.

Reply #169 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting kryo, reply 20
I'm sure they're concerned that I'm not giving them money. No idea why
I would care about that. I still haven't taken anything from them, so
it isn't stealing... It's okay to infringe a copyright if you weren't going to buy it anyway

I'd argue the point, but I'm just dumbfounded by how utterly naive, selfish, and willfully ignorant that entire post is.


It
takes effort to make the product. The cost of reproduction or lack
thereof is irrelevant and does not negate the effort of the initial act
of creation, or the rights of those involved to receive compensation.
As a non-essential product you have absolutely zero right to it on any terms other than those set by the creator.



This is the very foundation which permits people to make creative works
for a living in the first place; the end result of a world where your
beliefs were true (all intangible creations are free) would be one
where the only games, entertainment, and art are those made by
hobbyists. That means nothing would likely be created that couldn't be
done by small groups at minimal cost. More specifically, it would be
the end of console games, and PC games would be limited to small-scale
projects doable by people in their spare time. Those that do exist
would suffer from volunteer-only support, spontaneous abandonment due
to "real life" concerns of the creators, and simple burnout before many
projects even get finished.

If you dislike
the terms, you have the option to do without--claiming that you would
not compensate the creator anyway is no justification. It only proves
that you've never attempted to make a living from creative work, and
think little of those who have.


 

I'm middle ground, so I neither support piracy nor feel much ill against (certain) people who do it, however I must act as devil's advocate here.

 

The issue as I see it is exactly what Stardock (may God, Woden, and fate bless them and keep them safe) has fought so hard against.  When you see a painting that you wish to purchase or some other "creative work", you are immediately capable of deciding if it is pleasing to you and making an, and here's the important part, INFORMED decision on if you should or should not go through with the purchase.  This is not the way with games.

Games are like little possible pandora's boxes, they're maybe or maybe not filled with all sorts of sins and nastiness.  Of course, they're also filled with hope.  Now, a customer can't tell exactly what's in the box when they purchase it.  All they have to go on are box blurbs, some (probably) doctored screenshots, and reviews which are, honestly, not all that trustworthy (after all, how do you give an objective score or rating to an abstract sense of "fun"??)

Furthermore, if the purchase this customer makes is not to their liking they do not have, as with many other creative products, the ability to return or (easily) sell it.  If they do manage to return or sell it they are, all too often, fleeced and lose 60-90% of their original cost.  This is, after all, how the Gamestops make most of their money, but screwing over people trade in games, but I digress...

 

Point is, people SHOULD pay for the quality productions of creative minds.  However, those customers must be assured that they are going to recieve a QUALITY product.  For the time being this is very much not the case; for every good, creative product there are fifteen more that are absurd, rushed, worthless attempts to treat customers like blithering idiot moneybags.  The DRM issue just adds further insult but I won't even get into the worthlessness of that draconian system, i've seen better treatment of citizens in Hammarabi's Code.

Stardock is a good sign, they acknowledge the need for quality products.  It's a shame that people continue to pirate them, but what can we do short of Martial Law  and iron fist crackdown(and if it comes to that i'm picking up my rifle and marching on Washington, thank you very much).  Truth is there will always be those who pirate.  Hoping for otherwise is as foolish as wishing for war to end among humans, unlikely at best.  The best we can do is treat those on the border with respect and mantain dignitas: maybe if those people are treated well they will be that fewer pirates roaming the wastelands that are teh interwebs.

Reply #170 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Roxlimn, reply 18
Now, if we're talking ethics, let's talk ethics.  Is it right that a Western plumber gets paid more for his work than a South Asian programmer, whose work will be used to generate hundreds of thousands of dollars that never substantially benefits him in any way?

Is it fair that such a plumber gets less for his work than a Wall Street broker or a doctor?
Doctor saves lives, plumber fixes sinks. Doctor deserves more.

Broker does something involving business which I assume serves something resembling a function. Broker gets paid well if they buy the right stocks, but they could just as easily lose a lot of money and end up eating out of trash cans. The broker takes a bigger risk, and so, while they don't really serve much of a purpose for society, the successful ones do deserve more than someone whose biggest problem is a clogged toilet.

Reply #171 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I disagree, and I'm a doctor.

The effort that I put in and the effort a dedicated plumber puts in are exactly the same.  It's not his fault that he doesn't have my natural focus or my educational opportunities.  It's NOT FAIR.  If we're going to talk about ethics and what's fair, what's fair is that everyone gets the same return for the same efforts.  That's fair.

Reply #172 from Sins Forums Top

Hello marxist.  How are you today?

 

Question, how many years of schooling did you go through, residency?  What are your shifts like?  How many years of studying and 6 hours of sleep on a good day did you go through to get to be a doctor?  Plumbing is a year or two in a vocational school and maybe a short apprenticeship if you're serious about having a piece of paper, no major schooling required beforehand.

 

If I can be a doctor or a plumber and make the same amount of money, fuck that shit, sign me up for plumbing.

 

It's not that plumbers are somehow stupid, or doctors are amazing individuals that are just more dedicated to their work.  It's that becoming a doctor is a fuckload of work compared to becoming a plumber.  If it weren't, there wouldn't be a massive doctor shortage in every marxist country.

Reply #173 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Roxlimn, reply 21
I disagree, and I'm a doctor.

The effort that I put in and the effort a dedicated plumber puts in are exactly the same.  It's not his fault that he doesn't have my natural focus or my educational opportunities.  It's NOT FAIR.  If we're going to talk about ethics and what's fair, what's fair is that everyone gets the same return for the same efforts.  That's fair.
Fine, plumber's effort = doctor's effort (for the sake of argument, I'm ignoring the above post)

BUT plumber's results < doctor's results.

Let me ask you this: is it fair to pay the same price to unclog your toilet as you would for a heart transplant?

Reply #174 from Sins Forums Top

I'm with Roxlimn on this one. Simply put value is relative and money is not necessary a primary factor as to why people do stuff. Hell I have often given clients back money after I have completed work for them because I felt that I did not deserve what was paid because the effort I ended up putting fourth was less than I expected to have to do achieve the goal. Additionally by the prior argument should soldiers, not receive a shit load money then bankers or policemen far more then lawyers?

Reply #175 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

psychoak:

I did much more schooling and training than a plumber would have.  That means that for that amount of time, HE is being productive supporting ME since I'm essentially a social leech at that point.  He can work long hours, too.  He can train in all kinds of esoteric plumber jobs, too.  He still won't get paid as much as me.

Becoming a doctor involves a lot of hard work; but so, too, should being a plumber!  I know plumbers that work 18 hours a day polishing their craft for years on end and they still don't make that much.  That's not fair.

Torgamous:

Yes.  Because more people will need to have their toilets unclogged than to have their hearts replaced.

 

BOTH OF YOU:

You're ignoring the basic premise in capitalist society that my commentary is supposed to critique.  IN short, neither of you are getting the point.

It doesn't matter how long you work or how much you work.  In a capitalist society, your work is only worth as much as you can convince people to pay for it.  A doctor does all kind of hard crap stuff and goes through all kinds of hell.  Despite that, a primary care physician who does essential life-saving work for the community is gonig to make less money than a Wall Street broker, who requires less years training and does more expendable work.  It doesn't matter what you post or how you compare it - there will always be an instance in a capitalist society that refutes the fairness of your values unless you only value work as a commodity - worth only as much as anyone is willing to pay for.