PC game piracy hurts us all

from JoeUser Forums

At the end of the day, the people who "do stuff" will always have the advantage over the people who "don't do stuff".  Pirates are slowly motivating ever increasing levels of DRM and in time, I hate to say it, DRM is going to win.  That's because the people motivated to make the DRM work (the people who do stuff) greatly outnumber the motivation of the people who don't do stuff. 

One can easily picture a future in 5 years in which the telecoms, the PC makers, the OS makers, and the software makers have teamed up (and you only need any two of them to do so) to eliminate unauthorized usage of a given piece of IP. If you don't think it can be done, then you probably don't have much experience in writing software. The DRM and copy protection of today is piddly 1-party solutions. 

The DRM of tomorrow will involve DRM parternships where one piece of protect IP can key itself off another. Thus, if even one item on your system is pirated (whether it be cracked or not) it will get foiled as long as there is one item in the system that you use that isn't cracked (whether it be the OS or something in your hardware or whatever).  It will, as a practical matter, make piracy virtually impossible.

Computer games and video will likely be the first two targets because piracy of them is so rampant.  A pirated copy of something doesn't mean it's a lost sale. But piracy does cause lost sales.  Moreover, it's just incredibly frustrating to see people using the fruits of your labor as if they were somehow entitled to it.

I have long been and continue to be a big proponent of alternative ways to increase sales. I don't like piracy being blamed for the failure of a game because it tends to obscure more relevant issues which prevent us, as an industry, from improving what we do.  But at the same time, I don't like pirates trying to rationalize away their behavior because they do cost sales. I've seen people in our forums over the years boldly admit they're pirating our game but that they are willing to buy it if we add X or Y to it -- as if it's a negotiation. 

I don't like DRM.  But the pirates are ensuring that our future is going to be full of it because at the end of the day, the people who make stuff are going to protect themselves.  It's only a question of when and how intensive the DRM will get. And that's something only the pirates can change -- if you're using a pirated piece of software, either stop using it or buy it.

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Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I've seen people in our forums over the years boldly admit they're pirating our game but that they are willing to buy it if we add X or Y to it -- as if it's a negotiation.


Sounds more like a hostage situation. They want these things, and they say they will give you X amount of hostages, but when they get their stuff, they keep the hostages and ask for more.

The reality is, if they really want you to add X and/or Y feature to a game, then they should support you... by buying the game. It shows that they respect you enough that they will buy your product, and the money will help to encourage you to further develop the game, or future games.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
In the past, I've used pirated games as extended demos, but I did a lot of thinking about software copyright in the early '90s (for my bachelor's thesis) and I ended up both rejecting the entire notion of copyright and becoming a consistent game buyer.

I buy software because I understand that good games, like great music shows, fine paintings, and restaurant meals, are all made by people who "do stuff," and folks gotta eat.

That doesn't mean anyone has yet persuaded me that John Perry Barlow was wrong when he wrote The Economy of Ideas. Copyright is the bloated legacy of mercantilist thinking born in an age of absolute monarchs. Applying it to software is a perversion of a perversion.
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Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The whole controversy stands on one thing alone, IMHO... Value you get and value you can't have if the product you own ISN't genuine and properly purchased (as it should, always for anything).

What killed most of my interest in a HUGE amount of softwares (not only games, btw) is the fact that corp would pretend handing over a fair program with limited features in exchange for my 'testing time' until i do feel the formal acquisition of such unlocked version (with everything allowed for a cost) is worth my hard-earned money which, in fact, is humping away to somebody else's hands. My karma is better for it, i honestly shared my evaluation with that corp by spending what i should (by law!).

Now comes, the afore-mentioned Piracy of stuff; kiddy idiots patching a few asm cracks and inserting (90% of the time) some embedded trojan just for kicks - and running away with it behind the curtains of anonymous coda tricks. Sure, most people would condemn the whole activity (as they should) and actually try DOING something about it... but tell me, in all good thoughts, have you ever figured out why ISP fat and gigantic corporations never cared much about bazillions of viruses spreading through their 'private' servers. As long as everybody pays their invoices, the web loops and waves carries on. As they say, wheels are turning and investor X gets its monthly dividends straight out of my deepening communication pockets, as it seem.

75% of global Internet traffic is junk and who do you think hides behind that truth - you guessed it, Piracy -- again. Criminal gangs, mafia, prohibition, police, jail, judges... society has and HAD its way with our money. Can it stop? Even i can't solve that puzzle of human behavior. Theft as in what we are discussing here, is an offspring of mankind intellect and conditional attempts at survival. Individual or collective, too.

Although, i agree some sort of protection must de devised (in a hurry) to prevent formal stealing of binary properties (copyrights, anyone?)... i'd also gamble my very last dime on one inevitable conclusion -- say, not even weeks later, some bad genius out there would tackle the new challenge and actually succeed.

There is only one solution, AFAIC - trust (and true value(s)!) invested ONLY in the real customers who pay. Besides, everyone knows the legend; Cervantes couldn't fight the wind mill.

- Zyxpsilon.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
At the end of the day, the people who "do stuff" will always have the advantage over the people who "don't do stuff".  Pirates are slowly motivating ever increasing levels of DRM and in time, I hate to say it, DRM is going to win.


Haha, oh wow. I think you are overestimating any kind of unified front towards pirates, aswell as underestimating the tenacity of the pirates. If that's a future we as pirates will have to face, then have at thee!

//Varenus Luckmann, pirate and proud owner of an original copy of GalCiv2 with all it's expansions, thanks to piracy.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Besides, everyone knows the legend; Cervantes couldn't fight the wind mill.- Zyxpsilon.
Wait, what? Cervantes? Cervantes was the writer of Don Quixote. Don Quixote was the one fighting the windmill. Don't try to sound smart unless.. well.. you are.

Edit:
[...]Copyright is the bloated legacy of mercantilist thinking born in an age of absolute monarchs. Applying it to software is a perversion of a perversion.
Wow, while I support national mercantilism, that is such a great quote. I hope you don't mind if I borrow that?
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yep, but that WAS the point, ya know.
Cervantes wrote and had to think it over. I guess it takes a huge open-mind to fully grasp the whole reasoning behind a story protagonist (from a simple book, btw) versus whomever holds the wires that animate it.

- Zyxpsilon.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
If such tag-team DRM would work, why hasn't it been done? (honest question)

For software, how on earth would Windows(or whatever is determining this) decide whether software is legit or not? I can't think of how, though admittedly I don't know much about programming.

For video, surely no matter what protections they put on DVD/Blu-ray etc, someone will figure out how to turn the picture into an MPEG? Worst case they video the thing :p

Second, it seems there is a danger (well, a danger to the IP industries, I would consider it a blessing myself) of going too far, and causing a backlash. The current attempts at DRM already cause headaches for many legit consumers (and are completely and utterly useless besides), if they get more restrictive I imagine the number of problems would grow too. (if not, why aren't they already implemented?)

Personally I kind of hope they do, the whole IP system stifles innovation* and is utterly unenforceable, it could all do with a big rethink, and that kind of thing only tends to happen with a "revolution", for lack of a less...explosive/melodramatic word.

*not to say it doesn't encourage it as well, while some sort of copyright clearly does encourage it, I think the length and restrictiveness stifles it far more than needed.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
For years while I was growing up my family survived through a family company we owned and ran. Nothing frustrated me more then when people would decide that they were entitled to our product without paying the cost, or that some perceived issue meant that they were not obligated to pay.

As a result I hate pirates (music, movies, games, whatever), and hold them in the same regard as someone who physically stole the item from a store.
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Oh and not everyone is "rationalising", some people in the world do actually have principles :/ Admittedly most don't seem to though.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Oh and not everyone is "rationalizing", some people in the world do actually have principles :/ Admittedly most don't seem to though.


If you are talking about those who pirate, then those who do not rationalize are those who openly admit that they are stealing, in which case their principles are already somewhat dubious.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Oh and not everyone is "rationalizing", some people in the world do actually have principles :/ Admittedly most don't seem to though.If you are talking about those who pirate, then those who do not rationalize are those who openly admit that they are stealing, in which case their principles are already somewhat dubious.


Copyright infringement is completely different to stealing, I really don't understand why people try to equate them. OK that's not true I understand smear attempts just fine. It's nonsense though.

One can disagree with the natural rights idea behind it, one could simply disagree because one thinks unenforceable laws shouldn't exist, right or not. Probably other reasons, but I've never had much of an imagination.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Oh and not everyone is "rationalizing", some people in the world do actually have principles :/ Admittedly most don't seem to though.If you are talking about those who pirate, then those who do not rationalize are those who openly admit that they are stealing, in which case their principles are already somewhat dubious.
I take offense! >:O

My moral fibre and principles are stern, and in no way dubious. Do I rationalize? Yes, of course I do. I rationalize everything I do. That doesn't mean that the rationalization is dubious, or somehow skewed to fit me and me alone.

Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I hope your wrong about the direction it's going.

From the other side of the fence I see people picking products with less DRM because it causes less of a hassle. And you under-estimate the pirate's skills, once a protection has been hacked once it'll be hacked on all other systems using the same DRM.

The way you get extra support from stardock from buying the game made me buy it. I see it as the way things should be moving forward but aren’t. Make the idea "free to use by any company" and spread the word. In another post you say you don't go to many
"Meeting of the Competitor" things (can't remember what it's actually called). You should stand up in one and speak your mind, not about what you see happening, but how you yourself (as a company) have handled it.

In other words: Spread the gospel according to stardock.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Copyright infringement is completely different to stealing, I really don't understand why people try to equate them.


Ok, tell me what the moral difference is between making a copy of a CD and stealing the CD from a store? Both crimes have the same motive and outcome, the motive being that somebody wants to use the product without paying for it, and the result being that they obtained an illegal copy. In both instances the rightful owner of the material does not receive the money that is rightfully theirs for the use of their product.

Now, disagreeing with a law isn't the same as disobeying it. I disagree with laws that say I cannot purchase a handgun outside of my state of residence, I disagree with laws that say I cannot park on the street after midnight, and I disagree with laws that say that on an interstate I may only drive at a certain speed or below. That does not mean I am free to violate those laws because I disagree with them.

You may disagree with intellectual property laws, but that does not mean you have either a free pass or rational to disobey them.

I take offense! >:O


If you take offense over the fact that I called people who steal things thieves, then perhaps the issue lies not in what I said but in your conscious.

Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Copyright infringement is completely different to stealing, I really don't understand why people try to equate them.
With more statements like this is one reason why the industry has to be so aggressive in protecting their investment and sees Brad move of no copy protection as risky. I really believe there are more people who has this view.
Even if the aggressive protective measures fail we the consumers will have to pay for it in the long run.

Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Arg post got eaten :(

The obvious difference is stealing deprives the owned of the object, infringement does not. Governments seem to understand they're different things, that's why copyright infringement isn't a criminal offense (in almost all countries anyway). If you think they're just as bad that's fine, but they're not the same thing.

"Now, disagreeing with a law isn't the same as disobeying it. I disagree with laws that say I cannot purchase a handgun outside of my state of residence, I disagree with laws that say I cannot park on the street after midnight, and I disagree with laws that say that on an interstate I may only drive at a certain speed or below. That does not mean I am free to violate those laws because I disagree with them."

Really not sure what this means, are you saying I shouldn't break the law, regardless of how wrong I think it is? If you simply mean that saying "but it wasn't wrong!" to the judge will result in laughter, then you are of course right, I'm not naive about it.

As for a rationale, of course considering a law to be wrong is a rationale for breaking it. The usual examples of not reporting runaway slaves and hiding Jews in the holocaust are good examples (no, I'm not equating copyright with that stuff). People who did that were in no way wrong.

And to clarify, I don't want IP laws completely gone, just seriously reworked and weakened. From a moral point of view I don't consider it wrong iff you would not have otherwise bought it. Obviously, that cannot be put in the law.
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Arg post got eaten The obvious difference is stealing deprives the owned of the object, infringement does not. Governments seem to understand they're different things, that's why copyright infringement isn't a criminal offense (in almost all countries anyway). If you think they're just as bad that's fine, but they're not the same thing.
The government here doesn't really do anything about stealing either unless it's in large amount as often court cost is more than what has been stolen. It mores like the government doesn't really care as long you are not stealing from them. Now if you cheat on your taxes they will come after your butt.

The same with gambling. There difference between illegal gambling and legal gambling is one is runned by the organized crime and the other by the government..... Well there really isn't a difference after all. Sorry the government often sucks being used as a measuring stick to determine right from wrong.

Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The obvious difference is stealing deprives the owned of the object, infringement does not.


Companies are much less concerned with the actual physical loss then they are with the loss of revenue. A DVD takes a few cents to make and ship, I doubt they care so much about the loss of a few cents in cost as they are the loss of the retail price.

From a moral point of view I don't consider it wrong iff you would not have otherwise bought it.


So it's ok to take something if you weren't going to pay for it anyway? If such is a moral justification, then no one would intend to pay for anything since they would be morally justified in simply taking it. I think the very action of taking it without lawfully paying for it shows they "would not otherwise have bought it".
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
"Companies are much less concerned with the actual physical loss then they are with the loss of revenue. A DVD takes a few cents to make and ship, I doubt they care so much about the loss of a few cents in cost as they are the loss of the retail price."

I'm sure they're concerned that I'm not giving them money. No idea why I would care about that. I still haven't taken anything from them, so it isn't stealing. If I infringe their monopoly on distributing some piece of information (or download it from someone doing so), they've been deprived of nothing.

Someone else may or may not have given them money if they couldn't download it, but I'm only talking about myself, where that isn't the case.

"So it's ok to take something if you weren't going to pay for it anyway? If such is a moral justification, then no one would intend to pay for anything since they would be morally justified in simply taking it. I think the very action of taking it without lawfully paying for it shows they "would not otherwise have bought it"."

It's okay to infringe a copyright if you weren't going to buy it anyway IMO, it's not okay to take something, that would deprive the owner of their thing.

Not sure what you mean by the second sentence. If you download a movie or whatever, you know perfectly well whether you would've bought it if you couldn't download it. If you mean they would *say* they never intended to buy it, well of course, that's why I said it can't be made law. I was referring to morals though, a personal thing, not the law. Sadly we do not have a mind reading device so the law has to make it illegal period.

I guess the last sentence is missing something, unless you think no pirates would've bought the product ;) That would make opposition to it pretty odd!
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm sure they're concerned that I'm not giving them money. No idea why I would care about that. I still haven't taken anything from them, so it isn't stealing... It's okay to infringe a copyright if you weren't going to buy it anyway


I'd argue the point, but I'm just dumbfounded by how utterly naive, selfish, and willfully ignorant that entire post is.


It takes effort to make the product. The cost of reproduction or lack thereof is irrelevant and does not negate the effort of the initial act of creation, or the rights of those involved to receive compensation. As a non-essential product you have absolutely zero right to it on any terms other than those set by the creator.

This is the very foundation which permits people to make creative works for a living in the first place; the end result of a world where your beliefs were true (all intangible creations are free) would be one where the only games, entertainment, and art are those made by hobbyists. That means nothing would likely be created that couldn't be done by small groups at minimal cost. More specifically, it would be the end of console games, and PC games would be limited to small-scale projects doable by people in their spare time. Those that do exist would suffer from volunteer-only support, spontaneous abandonment due to "real life" concerns of the creators, and simple burnout before many projects even get finished.

If you dislike the terms, you have the option to do without--claiming that you would not compensate the creator anyway is no justification. It only proves that you've never attempted to make a living from creative work, and think little of those who have.
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
While I'm unhappy in principle with being assumed a thief before proven innocent, I've got no problem with DRM as long as it doesn't make things a pain in the ass, or resort to measures that, say, Starforce is infamous for.

A multi-party DRM scheme actually sounds decent in that regard, since it wouldn't require messing around with things software shouldn't mess with... it'd be taking advantage of existing infrastructure in the OS/system/what have you.

I know a couple people who use the "extended demo" approach, but then are very diligent about actually buying the retail copy. That's questionable, but arguably not something to be concerned about: it's the digital equivalent of playing it at a friend's house. It bypasses the security for the purpose of convenience instead of personal gain. However, that approach relies on the person's integrity... a quality that seems to be sadly lacking in many people these days, and I doubt most pirates are so principled.

That was a bit tangental.

Bottom line: do what you need to protect your hard work (in a couple years, I'll likely be in your boat myself), just don't make it a royal pain in the ass for your user, since the honest among us don't like being assumed guilty until proven innocent.
Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I couldn't have said that better myself kryo...

Pirates and people who use pirated software are thieves - no matter how they try to justify it. I have seen several computer systems go bust because of rampant piracy. Amiga and comidore 64 to name a few, I always bought the software but for the most part everyone I knew used pirated sotware (in Germany). If the people who steal console games and pc games ever start to outnumber the legitimate users the way it was with those two sytems that will be a sad day indeed.

I dislike invasive copy protection like starforce and using steam is often a huge pain in the butt to get something registered updated and running offline. If thats something I have to do so the people who worked so hard on the games I enjoy can stay in business I will.

I own alot of stardock software and think they have the right idea with their copy protection. Besides I love the fact that once registered all I need to install or play a game is log in and download it again or just click the icon and play - no digging around for disks. Keep up the great work guys!
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Grr...

I know such a guy like that at my work. He believes pirating is ok because the publishers make so much money. The most lamest excuse I've ever heard.

I feel for you Stardock and I appreciate your trust. It downright sinful that people abuse that trust and cause more hardship.

Anyway, I love your games and I hope the pirating of them stops.
Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The problem is I don't want piracy checks running on my system- they don't do me any good. My policy on pirating stuff is that if I can't get it legally and readily (note: this is rare- mostly for stuff that isn't sold anymore or not in my area) then it's fair game- under the standing to sue principle. (You can't steal something which isn't offered for sale and has no physical presence- you can't be hurting a company which won't profit from you)

The only things this really allows is abandonware and games unreleased locally.

My issue is you can't get refunds on crap games at all. Makes me very reluctant to buy things without proof, and you can't trust reviews anymore due to payola.

Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Piracy is the best way on Earth to ensure that people stop making things you enjoy. That's really all there is to it, support what you like or people will stop making things you like.