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PC game piracy hurts us all

PC game piracy hurts us all

At the end of the day, the people who "do stuff" will always have the advantage over the people who "don't do stuff".  Pirates are slowly motivating ever increasing levels of DRM and in time, I hate to say it, DRM is going to win.  That's because the people motivated to make the DRM work (the people who do stuff) greatly outnumber the motivation of the people who don't do stuff. 

One can easily picture a future in 5 years in which the telecoms, the PC makers, the OS makers, and the software makers have teamed up (and you only need any two of them to do so) to eliminate unauthorized usage of a given piece of IP. If you don't think it can be done, then you probably don't have much experience in writing software. The DRM and copy protection of today is piddly 1-party solutions. 

The DRM of tomorrow will involve DRM parternships where one piece of protect IP can key itself off another. Thus, if even one item on your system is pirated (whether it be cracked or not) it will get foiled as long as there is one item in the system that you use that isn't cracked (whether it be the OS or something in your hardware or whatever).  It will, as a practical matter, make piracy virtually impossible.

Computer games and video will likely be the first two targets because piracy of them is so rampant.  A pirated copy of something doesn't mean it's a lost sale. But piracy does cause lost sales.  Moreover, it's just incredibly frustrating to see people using the fruits of your labor as if they were somehow entitled to it.

I have long been and continue to be a big proponent of alternative ways to increase sales. I don't like piracy being blamed for the failure of a game because it tends to obscure more relevant issues which prevent us, as an industry, from improving what we do.  But at the same time, I don't like pirates trying to rationalize away their behavior because they do cost sales. I've seen people in our forums over the years boldly admit they're pirating our game but that they are willing to buy it if we add X or Y to it -- as if it's a negotiation. 

I don't like DRM.  But the pirates are ensuring that our future is going to be full of it because at the end of the day, the people who make stuff are going to protect themselves.  It's only a question of when and how intensive the DRM will get. And that's something only the pirates can change -- if you're using a pirated piece of software, either stop using it or buy it.

878,187 views 304 replies
Reply #76 Top
Companies should not be trying to make pirating harder. On the whole, this simply causes trouble for the paying customers, who are often upset about the thousand copy protections around the game they PAID. Here is a link to Shamus's Young blog about piracy, and I think he makes a pretty darn good point



Shamus Young's Twenty Sided Dice

Look at Stardock's policy toward pirating. I am sure their product is pirated. But on the other hand, I am pretty sure their sales aren't affected as much as other games like Bioshock. Why? First, Stardock is not a huge monolothic entity, it's Draginol, CariElf, Kryo, and others who often show up to their fanbase, listen to their comments and KEEP contact with them. Someone who is a fan of Stardock's product will have much more moral trouble stealing from peoples who SHOW UP than a faceless company.

Also, Stardock's product do not focus on anti-piracy techniques. The hidden message is not "Buy our game, even if we don't trust you". It's more of a "Buy our game, you'll get updates & support". If Spore doesn't have a huge copy protection when it goes out, but simply REQUIRE that you have a valid unique CD-Key if you want to access the Sporuniverse, I think they will reduce their piracy problem while NOT making their paying customers angry.

Stardock is also a pretty transparent company. When you think of it, they release betas, they show reports to their fan base, and allow to download them for play-test. They don't have to complain about pre-release piracy, they are ALREADY releasing pre-release copies to their fan base, so they know how fun the game is, and tell it on the forum. Their pre-release review are going to be PRETTY GOOD, compared to Titan Quest's pre-release comments.

The problem, I'd say, is not "is pirating moral or not?". It's beside the point. The problem is : "Is pirating causing losses of sales to the PC gaming companies?", and moreso: "Is aggressive anti-pirating policies makes the company looses more sales than the pirating itself?"

In the case of Titan Quest, yes. The anti-pirating softwares caused the game to be unpopular on the internet. And I don't think Stardock would have sold their games more if they had pissing off anti-pirating softwares on their games. They managed to get their sales as high as possible, and I think companies should put intensive to BUY the game than try to discourage pirates from operating.
Reply #77 Top
Cikomyr
+1
agree with every word.
Reply #78 Top
In the past, I've used pirated games as extended demos, but I did a lot of thinking about software copyright in the early '90s (for my bachelor's thesis) and I ended up both rejecting the entire notion of copyright and becoming a consistent game buyer. I buy software because I understand that good games, like great music shows, fine paintings, and restaurant meals, are all made by people who "do stuff," and folks gotta eat. That doesn't mean anyone has yet persuaded me that John Perry Barlow was wrong when he wrote The Economy of Ideas. Copyright is the bloated legacy of mercantilist thinking born in an age of absolute monarchs. Applying it to software is a perversion of a perversion.


I use pirated games as demos too. if I play it for awhile, usually around the first 2 levels, if I don't like it I'll deleted it if I like it I buy a copy or two and if I like it a lot I'll buy all of the series of that game to support the game creator/designers. I used a pirated galciv2 before but since I like it alot and I like the hard working staffs I bought the whole series of galciv 1 and 2

The problem is I don't want piracy checks running on my system- they don't do me any good. My policy on pirating stuff is that if I can't get it legally and readily (note: this is rare- mostly for stuff that isn't sold anymore or not in my area) then it's fair game- under the standing to sue principle. (You can't steal something which isn't offered for sale and has no physical presence- you can't be hurting a company which won't profit from you)The only things this really allows is abandonware and games unreleased locally.My issue is you can't get refunds on crap games at all. Makes me very reluctant to buy things without proof, and you can't trust reviews anymore due to payola.


I agree with arstal with this. Alot of old games are really hard to find these days, unless you buy it online, like in e-bay or amazon.com but that you need credit card and alot of kids under 18 or 16 don't have that. I bought all my games from the mall and games that sell only at online is a pain in the butt for me to get.
Reply #79 Top
Okay people, there are several completely independent issues that are being discussed here. Please, please do not mix them together; doing so can only lead to confusion. It will never lead to a productive solution to any of the problems involved here.

First off, I'll tackle the issue of pervasive DRM, which most people here seem to have ignored. Pervasive DRM is a very, very bad idea. This has absolutely nothing to do with piracy, morality or, copyright law. It doesn't even have to do with the many poorly implemented DRM schemes which have caused all kinds of problems for legitimate software consumers. Rather, it has to do with the nature of computers.

Computers are general purpose computing platforms. The basic functionality they provide is a set of hardware capable of complex arithmetic, and an interface that allows a user to create programs that utilize that hardware. On top of that, most users layer some sort of operating system for abstracting properties of that hardware (this allows the same program to work on machines with different chipsets; recoding every time Intel releases a new chip is no fun). We also use fancy compilers so we can write in high level languages, instead of machine code (which, again, changes by architecture, and is again no fun).

The point is, though, that I can make my computer do whatever I want. If I want to write a simulation of a big physics problem, I can write a program to do that, and run it on my computer. This is great; computing the simulation by hand would take me lifetimes, but my computer can do it in hours. Computers were originally scientific tools, and some of us still use them that way.

There are other platforms out there which are not general purpose, though. For example, gaming consoles do not have interfaces that allow users to write their own programs. While you may be able to hack your console, they are expressly designed to make this as hard as possible. Consoles are fine for playing games, but that's it. I can't run a physics simulation on my console.

This brings us to total platform DRM. Let's say that Intel and Microsoft decide to team up. Intel makes computer chips which, rather than being general purpose computing devices, will *only* run Microsoft Windows X (let's leave aside for the moment the feasibility of this design). And Microsoft makes good and sure that Windows X will *only* allow software that is cryptographically signed by a manufacturer in their online database to run. Great; now you have a platform where DRM is unbeatable. This is the only way to make such a platform. Any platform which allows the execution of arbitrary, user specified code will never allow the creation of programs which cannot be cracked by sufficiently motivated individuals.


The trouble is, what you have when you're done is not a computer any more. It's a console. It's a fun device that you can use for consuming various sorts of media, which will be provided by Microsoft's partners (Microsoft decides what can run, remember?). Anyone who's not an official Microsoft partner is out of luck. I can't run my physics simulation, because it's not validated by Microsoft. Likewise, any software vendor competing with Microsoft is completely at their whim. But of course, we all trust the good intentions of Microsoft, right?

Now, I'm not saying that consoles don't have their place, though personally I've never owned one, in part for this very reason, and in part because I prefer strategy games over shooters. But as a computer scientist, I'd be awful sad to see total DRM, because it would be the end of the personal computer as a general computing platform. If the cure for software piracy is the elimination of the PC as we know it, then the cure is worse than the disease. In the end, I don't want some corporation telling me in absolute, arbitrary terms what I can and can't do with my computer.


Now, the issue of copyright is a separate one. Legally, I think that the copyright system needs a major overhaul. The idea behind copyright is a sound one, but the current implementation does not accomplish that idea. In many cases, it does the opposite. Exactly what reforms need to be made to copyright law for it to serve its intended function (and I would point out that its intended function is listed in the United States Constitution as, "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries") is debatable, and beyond the scope of this discussion. Whether the term is 3 years or "forever by intervals" as Disney would prefer, it doesn't affect the piracy of new games.

Here, we again must disambiguate the moral and the legal sides of the issue of "piracy" which are so often jumbled together. Comparing the two is a classic case of apples and oranges. Statements like "act X is morally equivalent to legal construct Y" are practically meaningless. Comparing the morality of actions to other actions is fine, but don't get legal constructs mixed in. Also keep in mind that legal constructs do not have infinite moral value in all cases (there have been many immoral laws in human history, from Separate but Equal to the laws of Nazi Germany regarding Jews). Likewise, there are plenty of things which most people would agree are immoral, but are legal. This is what makes the arguments about piracy being or not being theft so messy.

The actual legal issues involved in software piracy are relatively straightforward. Using a copy of a program which you have not payed for is legally exactly equivalent to making a photocopy of a book. It is a violation of copyright law, and hence not legal. It is not petty larceny or grand larceny (commonly called "theft"), as both of these are quite specific in describing the taking of physical property owned by someone else without their consent. As no physical property is involved, software piracy is not larceny, it is copyright violation.

The moral issues involved are far more complicated, and there is no clear cut answer. Various parties will try to tell you that there is one simple solution. Though they may vary on what that solution is, it is never practical, and it is almost never moral or in the best interests of society.

There are very good reasons for discouraging piracy; artists need compensation if we want them to produce art. I enjoy many forms of art, ranging from computer games to live performances of opera. In every case, I understand the need to compensate the artists for their time and their creative energies.

The trouble is, there is a perception that most of the money we pay for off-the-shelf media products is not going to the artists who created the media. The even more troubling thing is that this perception is frequently, though by no means always, correct.

In this respect, my perception is that the computer gaming industry is at least somewhat better than the music recording industry, in which artist are essentially trading away the right to make money off their music in exchange for wider distribution. Most of the issues with piracy are related to people feeling like they are simultaneously being over-charged for media that costs cents to produce physical copies of *and* not effectively supporting the artists that created the work.

There are two ways that piracy can be reduced. The first is to make stricter laws and build more prisons and give up all rights to privacy (Microsoft owns your computer, remember? That means they can monitor and record anything and everything you do on it). The second is to change the perception that consumers are being overcharged and money isn't going to artists.

Personally, I prefer the second method, since the first sounds like a great way to wind up living under a totalitarian police state. What's more, I think many artists would agree with me. The most vocal objections come not from the artists, but from corporations who profit from works of art they did not create. I think Stardock has been doing a great job of trying the second method, and I think it's worked pretty well for them. By maintaining a good dialogue with their users and continuing to support and improve their products, they help create the perception that the user is getting his or her money's worth. They also have the advantage of being a small company which the artists actually work for directly. This helps give people the feeling that the folks making these great games are actually getting some of the money we're paying for them.

I for one devoutly hope that Stardock will continue to be a force against piracy by the same methods that they have used so far. I compliment them on their efforts, and I encourage them not to be discouraged by the fact that piracy still exists. As long as computers are open platforms, piracy will exist in some measure, but if the number of pirates is small enough, it won't impact the bottom line significantly. The way to reduce the number of pirates is to give users a sense that their money is being well spent, not to punish the loyal customers by saddling them with lots of DRM.
Reply #80 Top
Luckman, call me names all you want. Deny that you are a thief, that only means you have no conscience. You want me in an asylum? I want you in prison! I actually knew someone who got locked up and fined for pirating, don't pretend it isn't a crime no matter where you live.

As for being ignorant it is you who don't have a clue. While I lived in Germany the Comodore 64 and the Amiga were both immensely popular. It was easy to purchase any and all software for it at many department stores - Saturn Hansa, Brinkmann and Horten to name a few. Many people just chose not to and pirated instead. You can't tell me this had no impact on programmers ceasing to support these systems. I can't say from experience what was happening in other countries at the same time so I won't speculate on that.

You are an admitted pirate, so your opinion means nothing to me - feel free to cry or flame me some more... /ignore Luckman



Reply #81 Top
I believe if you do a job, regardless of the type of job you should be paid for your work. While I do understand the need and desire to ensure you are paid for your labor, I do not believe that is the way many companies use DRM. It is one thing to make an effort to receive payment for work performed. It is quite another to limit fair use to the point of near uselessness of the product.

By law I have the right to make 1 copy of anything as long as I own the original. The DMCA conflicts with that legal right because I am still legally allowed to make a copy but in order to do so I must somehow bypass the DRM which is against the law. Do companies provide you a backup copy (which you are entitled to by US copyright law) in case your legally purchased copy gets damaged? The answer is of coarse no. The fact is while DRM is partially there to protect revenues from pirates it is primarily there to have absolute control over the product and restrict the fair use of legitimate users.

DRM does not just keep honest people honest. It is also anticompetitive and anti-consumer. If I have legally purchased a movie, song, or video game as well as all of the necessary hardware; is it morally and ethically right to tell me I can only use Windows or ipod or Windows Media Player? Amazon Unbox is a perfect example of this. You pay full price (meaning the price is the same as a physical copy) for a digital download, then you are told you can only watch the movies you purchase on a Windows based PC or on certain brands of portable players. Then they limit you further by only allowing you to play your legally purchased video on 2 PC and 1 portable player. If you have a family or are a PC enthusiast you probably have more than 3 devices that are capable of playing a WMV. But that is not enough control, they go further by telling you that for any reason at any time without notice they can delete your entire video collection. That would be like Sony coming into your home and taking all of your legally purchased DVDs because you played one of their movies in a JVC player.

The fact is some people are determined not to pay for anything. It is not just the movie, music, and game industries that are targeted by these people. By including DRM in your products and limiting the fair use of honest customers you only risk alienating the people that do want to purchase your product. By providing a quality product at a fair price and excellent customer support most people will not have a problem with paying for your product.

I should be able to do the same things with a digital version of a product that I can with a physical version of the product. A purely digital version should not cost as much as a physical copy because the cost of packaging, warehousing, and transportation have been saved. This is not to say there is no cost in digitally storing and transmitting data, but the cost is not as great. Next take all the money spent on anti-pirating ads and DRM that only annoy people that actually paid for your product (people that pirated the product do not have those annoyances) and spend it on features customers actually want, or even better make your product more affordable.

Brad, I truly believe you have Stardock on the right path and your company should be a role model for all other digital media companies. I have no problem with spending money on your products or with registering for continued support.

I think the movie and music industries are incredibly greedy and if they continue on their current paths they will put themselves out of business. When DVDs first came out they were not region coded and most were both widescreen and fullscreen on the same disc. Now region coding is strictly enforced, and you almost always have to decide between a fullscreen version and a widescreen version. This is purely a way to make more money for less product.

I use Linux most of the time. I dual boot a pre-built computer that came with Windows XP. I purchased a DVD ROM and installed it in my PC. I can play my older DVDs on this computer when I use Windows however legally speaking I can not play my legally purchased DVDs when I boot to Linux even though everything I am using is legal. I can however install a package in Linux that will allow me to play DVDs since I can not purchase a legal DVD player for Linux. Is this wrong ethically or morally? I do not believe it is. I paid for the movie, I paid for the computer, video card (with a built in DVD decoder), and the DVD Rom. My OS is not pirated, so how can it be fair to tell me I can't use other means to watch the movie? Even in Windows some movies will not play because the DVD DRM CSS has been updated which means I need to get a new decoder and DVD ROM. I already had to buy a new DVD Player for my living room because of this. Does CSS inconvenience pirates? No, once they figure out how to circumvent it once it is simple for them to continue. The only one inconvenienced is the honest consumer that now has to spend $100's to continue making use of legal purchases everytime the DRM is updated.

DRM does not discourage piracy, I think it creates pirates. To increase the use of DRM and create hardware/software DRM alliances will mean the end of a competitive market. Many companies would not survive, especially small companies. Also the companies that take such extreme steps will continue to notice a drop in revenue due to one of three factors.

1. An ever increasing number of pirates.
2. Frustrated consumers finally having enough abuse start boycotting "infected" products.
3. Companies that remain DRM free and provide quality products will take a majority of their business.

As I said before, I am very happy with the Stardock business model. It is the standard the others should follow. I am happy to pay for Stardock products. Stardock does not restrict fair use of it's products, and the customer service as well as the tech support are second to none.
Reply #82 Top
Once again, we see that the free market will sort things out. When someone devises a better way to protect against piracy, others will implement similar measures. However, if piracy prevails, then consumers will lose, because pirates by definition don't pay for products. This isn't to say an individual software pirate never buys any software, but a general observation that software "pirates" in general don't pay for software. And if no one's paying for it, people aren't going to make it. If no one makes it, you won't be able to buy it, use it, consume it.

A small thought experiment that the free market provides the least costly result. Maybe not the result paying consumers like. If piracy becomes so widespread that a product is not purchased ever, soon it would no longer be available. However, there is a point where groups of people, such as Stardock (after all a corporation is a collection of investors/people) would be able to use their skills/capital to make more money in an industry where piracy isn't as costly. As that point is reached/exceeded, over time they will migrate away to that other industry. That point likely varies with different groups.

Now if Stardock's method of minimizing losses due to piracy works well (all other factors being held constant), they will have fewer lost sales due to piracy and may lead to other companies following suit.

The trust issue works both ways. I as a consumer have to trust the producer that their product will work as advertised. The producer has to trust that the consumer will legitimately obtain the product once that product is made available for sale. Hence the wonderful observation by the late Milton Friedman, (I am greatly paraphrasing his point here) all other factors being equal, an economy with greater trust between producer and consumer will have lower costs and thereby greater overall value.

I agree with many here who hate DRM. As a consumer, I am paying the price for someone else's pirating. That price is increased DRM. Now if some company wants to use DRM to force consumers to only view the movie once, only put it on one computer, etc, etc., have a rootkit unknowingly installed on their computer (thanks Sony), consumers will gravitate away from these products toward less restrictive products. Or if the DRM is too prohibitive of legitimate uses, consumers will vote with their dollars against it. The free market is fluctuating between consumers desire for less invasive DRM and producers desire to maximize sales.
Reply #83 Top
First of all I agree that DRM and copyright are two different things although it is the IP companies fault almost exclusively for muddying that water probably beyond repair ie. people now consider that DRM less products in the software/music/movie world are not coprighted...

DRM is a plague, poison and blight that I think will kill off most computer games in the future if things continue the way they are. A software company has a right to protect it's IP but it does not have a right to brick my DVD rom drive as Starforce did to two of mine and apparently Pace Interlock does to your entire computer. I won't buy Bioshock until it's in the bargain bin due to DRM. When someone pirates something that has been put in digital bondage I know it's wrong but there is also a big 'meh, I really couldn't care less... the company thinks we're all pirates anyway..." And ironically the pirate is actually getting a MORE functional version of the software!

Copyright itself is badly broken, unenforceable, unethical and frankly unconstitutional because it's unenforceable. 250k possible fines and years in jail for something as easy to do as click a mouse button and a Byzantine system where you can perform hundreds of infringements a day without even knowing about it! All of this is built off of a system designed to protect corporations from other corporations because they were the only ones who could make good mass copies of a work. Average Joe couldn't make hundreds of reels of technicolor movies back in the 30's... Bodging copyright law onto the public is like trying to enforce patent law, it just doesn't work...

IP is amorphous and easy to copy. It cannot be compared to theft of a physical object which is by comparison 1000x harder even if the thing is lying in a field unguarded just because you have to expend effort to pick it up and bring it back. It's also unenforceable because of the nature that it's supposed to be widely disseminated and used by the general paying public and IP companies have sorely and seriously breached their end of the confidence of that same public with DRM and suing granny for millions of bux because she had 10 copied songs on Napster that her grandkid put on. That's disgusting, repulsive, and revolting.

IP and the public is a trust game. Stardock sells well because they have the trust of their customers. Other products don't sell well and are pirated because their would be paying customers don't give a crap about the company since that company treats them like criminals by releasing software riddled with DRM that prevents them from using the program to the fullest when the pirate can use a BETTER version of the program (like the aforementioned Bioshock, or M$ products, or DxO, or etc...). IP conmpanies that blame all their woes on pirates should take a good long hard look at why they are actually losing sales. Maybe if they are marketing to China where 99% piracy is an actuality and noone pays for anything because they have no respect for IP well... that's one thing... Maybe it's because their prices are just too high (I wouldn't buy Adobe Lightroom for the $300 SRP but when it's at $99 with a student discount it's a kickass program). But maybe it's because your great whatever is actually turned into a buggy piece of (rhymes with mitt) because of the DRM or heck it never was a good program and it's still riddled with DRM that will brick your computer and you can't return it for a refund... Congratulations! You've just lost a lot of respect with people who might have bought your products in the future and won't feel more than a tinge of conscience at pirating stuff they want/need because of your (rhymes with witty) treatment of your paying customers.

I'd bet the vast, vast majority of pirates in this country would pay for stuff if it was good and had unobtrusive DRM. Those pirates who never pay for anything anyway... well... they're just criminals...
Reply #84 Top
gonna revive an old topic since i was searching for things about stealing techs in gal civ 2 and found this so i will add my thoughts to the list

people who say stealing copy righted things are bad
I agree, IN THEORY! (im bad at english just to let you know)

How many times have you went to the theaters for a movie that just came out only to find out the movie you watched was absolute garbage??

What about companies that rob you by making great marketing tricks??
I remember trying out gothic 3 when it came out, it has to be the most buggiest game I have ever played.
Now if I had actually bought the game, I would be stuck with a half finished game priced for 30$ (stores don't allow you to return games unless they are scratched or something)

Now days you can buy music that you want instead of an entire cd so that is wrong
but before when there was only 1 song that was any good in a cd
I am expected to pay 10$ for 1 good song??

Sorry to inform you guys but I would rather support piracy than companies who rob their customers

Yes I also know most games have demos, but most of those demos only show the good parts of the game or don't show anything about the game at all.

Also you should keep in mind that some people are on a tight budget.
Even if they wanted to show their support, they don't have the money to do so.
If those people ever took anything that doesn't have physical value, does that really hurt anyone??

I hope more companies start the trend of what stardock is doing. Instead of wasting money on making protection for their games or anything else, use it to make your actual software better.

I will gladly pay extra for great games like gal civ 2 but I refuse to pay for shiny games that are full of bugs.

just a few thoughts after reading some of page 1

PS as far as I know, gothic 3 still doens't have a real patch to fix everything, its mostly just tweaks users figured out to help the improve the game.

PS PS sorry for making you read all this :)
Reply #85 Top
The problem with people that are against piracy, is generally that they can't make out the difference between good and bad pirates.

Good pirates: Take me for example, I'm fifteen. I don't download good games unless I can't buy them, and I never download the games of companies/devteams that I respect, such as Stardock. I'd never think about pirating GalCiv2 simply because the game and its support is awesome. A game like Heroes of Might and Magic 5 however, is a different thing. I wouldn't buy this game, because it's not that good. I doubt I'd be satisfied with the product, and I already have the original, so I know how it is. So I download Tribes of the East. I wouldn't buy Tribes of the East otherwise. How can you call this bad? stealing out of a pile of candy that no one's going to touch is bad?

Here are the two tiers:

* Excellent games, developers and companies (GalCiv2, The dev team behind it and Stardock, as an example) ... Never download, even if I can't buy them
* Good/average games that I can't buy/wouldn't buy if I could ... Download. This isn't a crime, because the maker doesn't actually suffer (as in stealing something), since I wouldn't buy it. You can argue with your rigid principles all you want, but I prefer being flexible.

Then there's what the above pointed out. Games that simply don't deserve to be bought for some reason. Don't get me wrong, I respect people's work, but just because they made it doesn't mean they don't have a responsibility to make it an overall pleasant experience. It's like a chef and a hunter. The chef is whining at the hunter for eating his food without giving him payment for it, when the food is horrible. See what I'm getting at?

I also download all my music and movies, unless I'm going out on cinema. I download Photoshop, and Photoshop falls under category #2. I don't do it to be an asshole. I do it because if I don't, I won't have it. There are loads of more stuff I could write, but I won't. I simply can't afford to buy all this, and it's much more practical to download. And after seeing some of the officials of the entertainment business etc. speak out, I'm glad I didn't buy the stuff.

Bad Pirates: This is the kind you already know and assume everyone to be like. They download anything and everything.

There are many concepts that are vastly flawed in our time (copyright, money *add in shitloads of worldly problems here*), but honest piracy isn't one of them. Having said all that, Piracy isn't simple at all - it's advanced and multi-layered, which is where the problems arise.
Reply #86 Top
I'm sorry, HeroOfSorts, but your definition still falls well into the "bad" piracy. Apply the same logic to a car - I would never willingly spend money on a volkswagon, so if I see one sitting unused its fine if I "borrow" it for a while? No, I think not.

You are not entitled to play every game made, then only pay for the ones from companies you respect. Your point of view, and the millions who share it, is the reason DRM exists. You have no one to blame but yourself. Thank you for identifying yourself, so that honest customers (a catergory that certainly doesn't include you) can blame you as well.
Reply #87 Top
Your definition is, as I just tried to explain, flawed. ''Borrowing'' a car that I'd never otherwise buy is stealing. Downloading a game that I'd otherwise never buy isn't. Stop comparing piracy to stealing and you might see further.

Now we're getting into principles again. Why would I not download games that I can't buy? It's very simple logic. If I don't buy it, neither the company nor I get anything. If I download it, then at least I get something.

And that's where your point of view fails. You believe that regardless of anything, if you want something you pay for it. I'm flexible, you're not. I don't blame anyone, where did you get that from?

And again, I wouldn't get it if I hadn't downloaded it. That's the point of why I download stuff - I wouldn't get it otherwise. Get it?
Reply #88 Top
Stop comparing piracy to stealing and you might see further.


Piracy IS stealing. You are stealing the chance of a future sale from the company. Whether you later have an attack of conscience is irrelevant. You saying you won't pirate from Stardock is the equivalent of saying you won't shoplift from EB, but Gamestop and every other retail store is fair game until they earn your respect.

Let's put this closer to the truth. Would you consider it immoral to walk out of a GameStop with a copy of a game, then come back and pay for it later only if you enjoy the game? I mean, if you wouldn't have paid for it anyway, the store isn't losing a sale, right? That is effectively your defense of piracy.

And that's where your point of view fails. You believe that regardless of anything, if you want something you pay for it. I'm flexible, you're not.


There's a word for that type of "moral flexibility". Criminal. Downloading pirated games is against the law - that you've convinced yourself otherwise doesn't change that fact.

And again, I wouldn't get it if I hadn't downloaded it. That's the point of why I download stuff - I wouldn't get it otherwise. Get it?


And again, you are not entitled to get everything. If you can not or choose not to pay for something, you do not have a right to have it anyway. That this applies to computer files as well as physical objects is apparently beyond your comprehension.
Reply #89 Top

Piracy IS stealing. You are stealing the chance of a future sale from the company. Whether you later have an attack of conscience is irrelevant. You saying you won't pirate from Stardock is the equivalent of saying you won't shoplift from EB, but Gamestop and every other retail store is fair game until they earn your respect.

Let's put this closer to the truth. Would you consider it immoral to walk out of a GameStop with a copy of a game, then come back and pay for it later only if you enjoy the game? I mean, if you wouldn't have paid for it anyway, the store isn't losing a sale, right? That is effectively your defense of piracy.


I'm not ''stealing the chance of a future sale''. I'm stealing the chance of buying a game I'd never otherwise buy. If I downloaded games that I couldn't buy at the moment, I wouldn't look forward to buying SoaSE. And no, they aren't. In fact the only company I don't like is EA.

Err, the shop I used to go to invented that themselves. But no, I wouldn't. If you get say 3 days to test it, then it's only fair - you can see if you enjoy it before you buy it. Of course, I could read stuff like Gamespot reviews. And that's not the same as piracy, you've missed my point again. Piracy for me, is downloading stuff I can't get.

here's a word for that type of "moral flexibility". Criminal. Downloading pirated games is against the law - that you've convinced yourself otherwise doesn't change that fact.


I don't care about stupid laws. My neighbour's dog pirates things, and even if everyone didn't pirate things, I'd still do it and say it was a stupid law. When people don't have to spend thousands on movies, music and games, then they're certainly not going to, except in cases like Stardock, but this varies from person to person.

And again, you are not entitled to get everything. If you can not or choose not to pay for something, you do not have a right to have it anyway. That this applies to computer files as well as physical objects is apparently beyond your comprehension.


And *once again* you do the most common anti-pirate mistake *sigh*. I don't download stuff that I can get. I download stuff that I wouldn't buy (and I know I wouldn't buy, it's not an excuse), and this includes foremost music and movies and the very occasional game.


I don't gain anything ... company doesn't gain anything.
I gain something ... company doesn't gain anything.

I fail to see how you'd prefer the first solution?
Reply #90 Top
I download things because they aren't worth what they cost. No, not even GalCiv 2. It's not that I don't think the people making deserve to be compensated, but I'm not getting $50 of worth out of this stuff.

Frankly, I don't have the attention span. I get bored way before I could get my money's worth. I pirated Dark Avatar... so what? I also have never completed a sandbox game (The only mode I even play). Ever. Should I spend $60 for Twilight when I know I'm going to play it for 5 hours twice a week, and then end up uninstalling it after a month?

I also pirated Assassin's Creed. Thank god, it's actually rather boring. I haven't played it for 3 days, and I've only had it for like 5. Chances are I'll delete it before I ever finish. And I should have spent $50 on this? So I could get 10 hours of gameplay before I got bored and quit?

I don't know why I buy games at all, really. I've got like 15 PS2 games sitting on a shelf, 5 of which I haven't beaten. The other ten I haven't even started yet. I spent like $200 on those games, but I certainly don't seem to be getting anything out of it.

And I suppose that's sorta my fault. But it still doesn't give me a reason to spend money I know is going to be wasted.
Reply #91 Top
I don't care about stupid laws.

Translated means "I'll do what I want to do, to hell with anyone else". Good luck with that one ....

I don't gain anything ... company doesn't gain anything.
I gain something ... company doesn't gain anything.

I fail to see how you'd prefer the first solution?

If you cant see why, then you'll have a real problem in the coming decades .... Tell that to the Judge when you give that one as the reason for stealing a Ferrari and see what happens.

And I take it another of your personal agendas is Respect? ..... not gonna happen.

Regards
Zy
Reply #92 Top
Translated means "I'll do what I want to do, to hell with anyone else". Good luck with that one ....


No it doesn't.

If you cant see why, then you'll have a real problem in the coming decades .... Tell that to the Judge when you give that one as the reason for stealing a Ferrari and see what happens.

And I take it another of your personal agendas is Respect? ..... not gonna happen.


Are you anti-pirates seriously uncapable of differing between stealing and pirating? stealing is the act of taking something, so that the guy you're stealing from loses it. This means that if I stole the game from them, they wouldn't have it anymore, like stealing it from a retail store. Pirating it is downloading a copy of the game, so the owner doesn't lose anything if I won't buy it. You can't pirate a ferrari.

What do you mean?
Reply #93 Top
Tell that to the Judge when you give that one as the reason for stealing a Ferrari and see what happens.


I could make a comment about the differences between the theft of a physical item, and the theft of a theoretical sale, but you know the difference, and you knew what he meant.

I can't take you seriously when part of your argument is a deliberately misinterpret what someone else is saying.
Reply #94 Top
Its not a deliberate misinterpretation. Its a difference in perception and values. I view software as an entity that people made, put the heart and soul into sometimes. I believe no one has the right to take that effort for their own personal gain, without the individual who made it giving permission. Whatever the rational, whatever the reasons, the end result is theft, any other fluffy mitigation will never get round that fact from where I am sitting.

I suspect we will always disagree on this, but thats fine, discussion and opinion makes the world turn round. Dont however mistake an opposing opinion as a deliberate misrepresentation, its an equally valid viewpoint, not an attack.

Time will tell whose opinions are nearer the mark of reality in the real world outside the Forum. I offer no predictions or "Ultimate Solutions", just opinions.

Regards
Zy
Reply #95 Top
This doesn't bother me. I don't usually buy computer games. I only do that if someone tells me it is great and wants to play. Bring on the DRM.
Reply #96 Top
HeroOfSorts - here's hoping you get caught soon, so you can try this defense in court.

Ryuu Kaze - I can't take you seriously when you proudly admit to breaking laws and don't see anything wrong with it.

Neither of you have agruments, you have rationalizations for doing what you want. I'll stop banging my head against the wall now, as neither of you are likely to change your viewpoint without being arrested.
Reply #97 Top
When did I say I was proud? I simply don't intend to lie about it. And I'm not rationalizing anyting, at no point have I said I doing either the legal or moral thing. (Of course, I haven't said I think I'm doing something immoral, either.) But I want to go back to something else first.

Let's put this closer to the truth. Would you consider it immoral to walk out of a GameStop with a copy of a game, then come back and pay for it later only if you enjoy the game? I mean, if you wouldn't have paid for it anyway, the store isn't losing a sale, right? That is effectively your defense of piracy.


You keep trying to compare apples and oranges. Or rather, the law and morals. If I walk out of a store with a game I didn't pay for, that's larceny. If I download a game I didn't pay for, that's copyright infringement. These are different crimes.

For one thing, the store HAS lost a sale, because they can't sell the copy of the game I walked out with.

If I download a game, they've lost a hypothetical sale, because they didn't lose anything except the money I MIGHT have paid them.

You keep arguing these are morally the same thing (IE, equally as bad). This might be so, because you keep trying to confuse the issue with remarks about the legality.
Reply #98 Top
HeroOfSorts - here's hoping you get caught soon, so you can try this defense in court.


Hope you mean for some other crime. Don't plan to be a criminal though.
You can't do anything legally about Piracy here in Sweden.
Reply #99 Top
And yes, I forgot to add this in. Don't blindly obey laws.
Reply #100 Top
You keep trying to compare apples and oranges. Or rather, the law and morals. If I walk out of a store with a game I didn't pay for, that's larceny. If I download a game I didn't pay for, that's copyright infringement. These are different crimes.


But they are still crimes, as you have stated much to your huge credit - and thats the whole point in this debate. A crime is a crime, and no amount of reasoning will ever get round that. Those that pirate software are committing a crime. They may disagree in principle that it should be a crime - the fact remains it is.

There are many things we may disagree on in this world in the way they are run or regulated, and thats fine. However until the rest of society is in agreement with a different set of values, it is what it is, a crime. It would be total mayhem if we decided that all 7 Billion on the Planet could make up their own rules, we would still be in the Stone Age.

There are two issues in this,

Is it a crime? Indisputably.

Should it be a crime? Personally I believe so, others may differ. In doing the latter however those that dispute that it should be a crime, should acknowledge it is currently, and stop presenting smoke screens for illegal activity. The latter is the best - and frankly the only - way any such rationale will ever have a chance of being taken on board as a serious practical view.

Regards
Zy