The Muslim faith bodes ill for peace in this world. IT is a religion of violence.

Your statement is just off the mark. Can you judge Christianity on the basis of the history of those who have professed the faith. Just think the Holocaust was perpetrated by Germens who were church going Christians. The slavery and slave trade between Africa and the New World was carried out by Christians. You can name any crime and tyoyu can give a religious color. Muslims do not have any monopoly on bigotry and intolerance. The West has had more than its share of bigots and the like.

You are correct, Bahu, that Muslims do not have a historical monopoly on bigotry & intolerance, but they've certainly cornered the market of late. Furthermore, it was Christians & Jews, for the most part, who fought to end the tyranny perpetrated by those German Christians. And it was Christians & Jews, for the most part, who put an end to slavery.

The Muslim faith may not be a religion of violence, but it is certainly a religion which accepts and tolerates, and in countless instances openly advocates, violence against infidels. As soon as those peace-loving Muslims rise up and put an end to the terrorism being carried out in Allah's name, I'll accept your comparison as valid. It is sad that there are apologists like you who excuse terrorism as somehow justified.

Cheers,
Daiwa

There is a strong feeling in the Islamic world that the West is trying to undermine Islam as a religion and civilization by constantly depicing it as a fundamenmtalist, aggressive, lawless force.

That is ironic, consdering that there is a strong feeling in the western world that many Muslims are trying to undermine Islam as a religion and civilisation by constantly behaving as if it was a fundamentalist, aggressive, and lawless force.

Who do you think is more successful in the attempt to create that illusion?

Cartoonists or suicide bombers?

Touche, Leauki.

Cheers,
Daiwa

The slavery and slave trade between Africa and the New World was carried out by Christians.

Only partly true, bahu. The fact is, many of the Africans were captured and SOLD into slavery, and Christianity was not well established in Africa. Many of the traders who sold the blacks into slavery were (drumroll please): MUSLIMS!

Going further, though...I find it interesting that you compare Christianity of 100 years ago with Islam today (the holocaust doesn't count...to say it was perpetrated by Christians is to be WHOLLY misinformed...a good history lesson would do you some good here).

Yes, Christianity has had some "bad apples". And some have been VERY bad. But Christianity has built hospitals, schools, and numerous charities; in fact, public education in the United States was FOUNDED on Christian principles and philosophies (the "Old Deluder Satan Act" in Massachussetts was the first ever public education law).

You could point to practitioners of ANY religion and claim them to be extremists. NONE have NEAR the number of terrorists as Islam. Not ONE.

Only partly true, bahu. The fact is, many of the Africans were captured and SOLD into slavery, and Christianity was not well established in Africa. Many of the traders who sold the blacks into slavery were (drumroll please): MUSLIMS!

Muslims continued with the slave trade while the (Christian) British Empire was working to end slavery worldwide. It was Christians, it was Europeans who ended slavery.

Going further, though...I find it interesting that you compare Christianity of 100 years ago with Islam today (the holocaust doesn't count...to say it was perpetrated by Christians is to be WHOLLY misinformed...a good history lesson would do you some good here).

The Christianity of 100 years ago was still more civilised than much of Islam today. The Christianity of the Victorian age accepted Jews, accepted Darwin, but didn't tolerate slavery. I have no problem with such a religion.

And to blame the holocaust on Christians is simply an insult to the many members of the Lutheran Confessing Church who ended up in concentration camps because of their Christian faith.

http:/ /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessing_Church

The famous pastor Niemoeller was one of their number. I have the greatest respect for him and his religion.




(JU always messes up links with underscores. Remove the space between // to make the link usable.)

Thank you, Leauki. I always find it interesting when people will dredge up Christians who supported slavery, ignoring the fact that the Underground Railroad was run mostly by Quakers, many of whom lost their property in helping the blacks escape (another in the long arguments AGAINST reparations...I contend that, if blacks are worthy of reparations so am I, as I have equally worthy Quaker ancestors who lost as much...but I digress). Truth is, they're trained to anti-Christian "sound bites" without educating themselves to the facts.

Now, to be fair, SOME Christians do the same to Muslims. But some of us have done the facts and crunched the numbers, attempting to be objective...and even with an objective analysis, Islam comes up short.

I meant to put the word Christians (in "German Christians") in quotes but forgot. And it does boggle the mind that anyone, Bahu included, could believe that Christians perpetrated the Holocaust (that is, when they're not believing that it never happened) - the Nazis were entirely pagan, rejecting both the God of the Jews and Christ.

Cheers,
Daiwa

The Germans who perpetrated the holocaust were not church going Christians in any sense of the word. They were pagans for the most part, in the process of inventing their own teutonic religion. Feel free to read up on the SS. As for slavery, some Christians were responsible for slavery, but without Christians, slavery would also have never been abolished.

Bahu, again, we are told that we should not provoke violence by posting these cartoons. Is the act of insulting Islam promoting violence? Doesn't that assume that Islam will always react violently?

Bahu states:

The cartoon showed the Prophet wearing a bomb in his turban.

Out of respect, it's not right to mock any religious idol regardless of motive. Moreover, no religious idol has ever been responsible for blood letting or war. Only in recent years has the Muslim religion stepped into the public eye bringing underlying motive out into question. As for bombs and turbans, thank the events of 9/11 and the Muslim terrorist signature bomb delivery being self sacrifice in the name of “Islam” at any cost. Yep, bombing has become associated with turbans in a slurred sense.

The Western embedded media says that it is a clash between Freedom of Expression and an increasingly intolerant Islam.

Don’t often agree with “The Western media’, but in this case they’re not to far off point. The problem is with Freedom of Expression, comes social responsibility and that’s to often ignored when it comes to controversial beliefs.

the West believes that it can cruush the Moslem world

This statement is so off the mark, it scratches distortion. We will do all we can to stop terrorism, not Muslims. Just so happens that you can thank Muslims with distortions and extremist views for advancing the association of terrorism with Muslims, even though there are some Catholics in Ireland that fit the bill. I've see roughly two extremes. Don’t know about any of you, but I’ve read segments of the translated version of the Quran, it's not much different then the bible when level headed intent interprets the words. God can be referred to many names, not one fosters killing. Radicals struggle with intent or difference because they’re founded in dysfunction and guided by poor judgment, which takes them to killing what appears threatening to Islam. They’re not all that different from some Christian leaders back in history either. There appears to be a consensus that maligning all Moslems and intrusive attacks directed at their religious idols is acceptable; if so, that’s wrong. Additionally, it gives food to the distorted person while harming the innocent Moslems, which there are many. In their defense, many moderate Muslims and Clerics have held press releases speaking to the contrary regarding terrorism, but not nearly enough for the world to stand up and take notice. In addition, when highly respected Muslim leaders do speak up, very little press results. With that in mind, I’m in-step with Tova7 For respect to come about, the whole Moslem world needs to take a firm public stance against arbitrary killing and rampant misrepresentation of the Koran. Otherwise, it gives the appearance the majority of Muslims subtly support those publicly announcing extreme beliefs and the manner in which they act out their hate. Once that takes a larger hold, more respect towards Muslim beliefs will be shown by those with marginal tolerance levels. Course; there are extremists on our side of the problem that might never let go.

You are correct, Bahu, that Muslims do not have a historical monopoly on bigotry & intolerance, but they've certainly cornered the market of late. Furthermore, it was Christians & Jews, for the most part, who fought to end the tyranny perpetrated by those German Christians. And it was Christians & Jews, for the most part, who put an end to slavery. The Muslim faith may not be a religion of violence, but it is certainly a religion which accepts and tolerates, and in countless instances openly advocates, violence against infidels. As soon as those peace-loving Muslims rise up and put an end to the terrorism being carried out in Allah's name, I'll accept your comparison as valid. It is sad that there are apologists like you who excuse terrorism as somehow justified. Cheers,

AMEN!

"It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity," he said in 1933, "because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood." His countrymen would have to choose: "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." -Link

Hitler, like many people in politics, liked to put on the uniform of religion to appease the masses, but in reality he had no such personal affiliation. It's hard to make "if anyone would take away your coat, give him your cloak also" jive with the Final Solution.

Bahu: can you really say that Mohammed with a bomb for a turban is any less timely or valid than other political caricatures? Uninspired? Maybe, but Islam is the direct reason many terrorists give for what they do. Is it really the political cartoonist that is associating violence with Islam, or is he just offering a rendition of what terrorists preach daily?

You are correct, Bahu, that Muslims do not have a historical monopoly on bigotry & intolerance, but they've certainly cornered the market of late.

---Daiwa

This is very true. What pops my cork is that the whole world seems to want to rehash Christian offenses over and over, but to give the Muslims a pass.
A series of Crusade that took place a thousand years ago? SHAME!
An Inquisition that took place a few hundred years later? DAMN YOU ALL!


Demonstrate violently and burn some buildings in a riot? Poor, poor militant protestors.

Murder dozens of innocent Jewish children in a hail of gunfire aimed at a school bus?
Pity the freedom fighters.

Blow yourself up with a nail-packed bomb in the middle of a busy, crowded marketplace?
"A bomb was detonated today by a Palestinian martyr......"

Makes me sick how we're just supposed to tolerate them and their hate.

I'd like someone to point me to the front-page articles in Arab newspapers about the rage of Christians rioting in the streets of America over the burning down of 5 churches in the South last week. I am offended in the extreme that these symbols of God, these holy houses of sacred worship, have been destroyed and I feel I would be justified in throwing rocks at people randomly, maybe even getting out the Glock & going looking for a large gathering of people. (Note to Carnivore: just kidding.)

That's about how stupid this whole business has been.

Cheers,
Daiwa

Island Dog

One is a religious symbol and revered all over the world. The other is a political and economic symbol. In any case they are not to be equated.

One is a religious symbol and revered all over the world. The other is a political and economic symbol. In any case they are not to be equated.

A "political and economic symbol"? What an ass you are - utterly intellectually bankrupt and without a soul. I'd spit in your face if I could and feel good about it.

That image, Bahu, represents some 3000 innocent souls murdered in the cruelest way possible in the name of that effing "revered symbol".

Forget the Cheers,
Daiwa

That image, Bahu, represents some 3000 innocent souls murdered in the cruelest way possible in the name of that effing "revered symbol".

Now you have a feel of how Moslems feel when their symbols are ctitisised. Your response is truly amazing. This is exactly the response in Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan. Except that you are angry over one symbol the others over another.

" Now you have a feel of how Moslems feel when their symbols are ctitisised. Your response is truly amazing. This is exactly the response in Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan. Except that you are angry over one symbol the others over another."

A vast oversimplification of a situation wherein Palestinians are also abused and held in siege by fellow Arabs, who block their access to their own nations as well, and make restrictions on their work and migration just as heinously as Israel.

On another blog you bemoaned people who tread heavily. Respect is a necessity, you said. "There, now you see how it feels" doesn't offer respect, it even goes toward validating the act as a balance. People get worked up talking about these things, and I think though we aren't well acquainted that you do not feel that way.

You, and Muslims all over the world, must understand that while this cartoon is an insult to you, the demand that our freedoms be changed to meet the Islamic standard of "respect" is a great threat to us. What we publish in our newspapers doesn't change the way Muslims in other coutries go about their business. The demands from Islam seek to change the very fabric of what we call freedom, and they are demands that are pushed forward under threat of violence.

must understand that while this cartoon is an insult to you, the demand that our freedoms be changed to meet the Islamic standard of "respect" is a great threat to us. What we publish in our newspapers doesn't change the way Muslims in other coutries go about their business

As you put it "OUR FREEDOMS" cannot be changed. True enough, but what about respect for the values symbols and religion of nearly a third of humankind. Surely "Our Freedom" does not include the right to insult and humiliate them. Now there is a tit for tat exchange over what the West considers unacceptable;trivillsing the Holocaust for example and that is an invitation to dangerous undercurrents.

Insult is not something we are protected from. You accept that criticism is valid, but you draw the line when it becomes insulting.

Who decides what is insulting, the insulted? Then how easy for those in power to silence a critic by simply crying foul. Hamas associates Islam with bombs. For me to take this insult seriously is to overlook decades of Muslims ignoring the fact that they, themselves, associated their religion with violence and terror.

Why didn't they riot when they said it was a Muslim's duty to support terrorism? Drawing a picture, or taking innocent lives in Allah's name; which do you consider a more heinous insult toward Islam? After decades of being called an "infidel" worthy of killing, pardon me if I see this anger toward the association as anything but self-serving.

Regardless, I don't wish to insult you, and I hope you know after all this time I do respect you and your views very much.

Regardless, I don't wish to insult you, and I hope you know after all this time I do respect you and your views very much

This is an intellectual discussion and I too have high esteem for you views.In fact thogh I do defend the Moslem point of view and do see the hurt where it lies, I do not endorse Terrorism and killing innocent people. In the heat of the moment we may sometimes verlook that point. However, the fact that today we have an Islam that is stridently militant has to do with the geo politics of the Middle East and therefore we must separate Islamic sates and societies as Politcal formations and Islam as a orld religion. Conflating the two crated the problem.

Now you have a feel of how Moslems feel when their symbols are ctitisised.

I hope you are not comparing the icon of Islam with 3000 people murdered by followers of that icon.

That's exactly what he has done.

Grand.

I think many Muslims are idolizing Muhammed more than is good for them.

Daiwa

Have you ever Read the Quatrains of Nostradamus? I do not know if they are true or not but I have read the translations. I do know we used them in our PR campaign during WWII.

Below is the one on the 25 (Not 27) year war:

n N. epistle to Henry II:

"...The Antichrist returns for the last time...
All the Christians and infidel nations will tremble...
for the space of twenty-five years.
Wars and battles will be more grievous than ever.
Towns, cities, citadels and other structures will be destroyed...
So many evils by Satan's prince will be committed that
almost the entire world will find itself undone and desolated.
Before these events many rare birds will cry in the air.
NOW! NOW! and sometime later will vanish."

The meanings are clearer now. Both the Christian and Muslim nations are trembling.
Structures are being destroyed.
The rare birds are the planes that sound the two explosions and then vanish.