Let’s say 1/2 of those 15 Million are NOT looking. That still leaves over 7 Million that CAN NOT find a job.

I see you are losing this arguement very quickly. As Gideon pointed out (that you keep ignoring) this country will never have 0% unemployment, which seems to be what you are suggesting. That "7 million" figure you say can't "find a job", should be "7 million" aren't looking for a job. As DJBandit pointed out, there are jobs availble, it's not the governments fault.

There are millions of Americans that can not afford to live even with the job they have.

Personal responsibility col. Do you want a redistribution of wealth in this country? Should be just give welfare to everyone just to make you happy? Every employer is not just going to jump up and increase their wages 200%. This is why you are so far off from reality.

Just look at LA and MO after Katrina. Guess what those people are still POOR!

And LA is a perfect example of liberal economics. They were poor before the storm, and now suddenly they should be rich? If complaining made someone rich, LA would be the richest place in America.

What about the GM and Ford situations?

What about them?

Every day more and more living wage jobs leave this country.

First it was high paying jobs leaving the country, now it's "living wage" jobs. Make up your mind col.

Offshoring = cheaper goods
Cheaper goods = more people can buy them
More people buying goods = increase in jobs associated with the sale and distribution

Keeping a lot of the current jobs domestic would spike prices on goods and services through the roof. WalMart, the store most frequented by those with meager financial means, would more than double the prices on many goods. The result would be that a large portion of goods would be out of the range of the "poor" You would then be screaming that companies are trying to deny access to said goods.

The economy moves in cycles, it gets better, it gets worse, it goes up and down of its own accord, the best we can manage is to try and mitigate the relative movements. Every 20 years we have a bit of a recession. Every so often there is a major shift in how businesses operate and there's a time where things are in flux before it all settles out. Some jobs may be high paying today, but as tech and process improves it may not pay so well tomorrow. Think of watchmakers. Once upon a time, they were artisans who made a LOT of money making watches because so few had the knowledge and ability to do so. Then as we got better at mass producing items, it became a novelty profession, eventually it's to the point now where it's all machine and assembly line done. Is it the responsibility of the Govt to protect the watchmaker against the forces of the market?

No, it is the responsibility of the individual to learn and adapt to how the world is moving. If you refuse to learn new things, refuse to adapt, then you're destined to be roadkill. I am in IT, as I've said before, and I know the future of this profession looks bleak, but I also know that there will always be a need for the skills I posess, it's all about finding my next niche when things shift. It is my responsibility to keep my skills relevant to a changing environment.

On the issue of living wages and such for the American family. Lets assume the worst and say that a family of two adults and two kids is living off of fast-food wages ($8/hr) and each adult works a full 40hr shift. That's $16/hr. Working a full 40hr week and 52 weeks a year, assuming no overtime mind you, that comes to about $33k/yr (a bit less with state tax, medicare, etc taken out).

Now, since we have a base income figure of around $33k, we have to look at expenses. I live in Hartford, CT, which is insanely expensive as far as places to live go. I have a two bedroom apartment in a nice building in a pretty good section of town for $900/mo. Enough room for a family of four, if a bit crowded.

Food is probably going to be the highest expense for the family, and we'll give them a generous budget of $400/mo on that. I know many people who eat very well for a family of four on less than that per month.

Transit will probably run $100/mo assuming they're not driving a hundred miles a day or something. A cheap car will suit their needs in *most* areas, and if you carpool, gas costs can be kept very low. You can also get bare-minimum car insurance in that monthly expense.

For all those "unknowns" I'll throw in an additional $400/mo for "Misc" expenses. Everyone has these, and it's impossible to fully quantify them, but $400 seems reasonable.

Add all of that up, multiply by 12 months and you end up with an annual cost of around $20k. A full $13k/yr savings potential. Now, they don't have much in the way of "fun" stuff in that budget, but if they're smart, they can be saving a LOT of money every year to get themselves out of their financial hole.

A family does not rise and fall financially on a drop as low as 1.2% If they are that close to the wire, a kid getting sick could sink them just as easily. It is always possible to make ends meet in this country if you work at it. It may not be easy, it may hurt a bit, but it's possible if you have the drive. And at the end of the day, it's your responsibility to make sure you can survive financially, not the govt.

Island Dog


The level of wages paid by employers has NOTHING to do with Personal responsibility. Those low paying jobs will be there no matter what a person does to improve their lot. It will just be a different name that holds the non-living wage job. High paying jobs are PART of the living wage jobs.

I never said we would reach zero % unemployed. I think 7 million who can not find a job is a major problem and I bet all the 7 million agree with me.

The poor in LA, Mo and Texas has NOTHING to do with Liberal ANYTHING. It has a lot more to do with your attitude and the policies we are following!

The 60,000 jobs at GM and Ford are just the latest example of what is taking place. This morning Chrysler announced they will cut 20,000 jobs. YES the economy is just GREAT! FOR WHOM?

The level of wages paid by employers has NOTHING to do with Personal responsibility. Those low paying jobs will be there no matter what a person does to improve their lot. It will just be a different name that holds the non-living wage job. High paying jobs are PART of the living wage jobs.

It's there responsibility to improve themselves and their job situation.

I never said we would reach zero % unemployed. I think 7 million who can not find a job is a major problem and I bet all the 7 million agree with me.

Which is it then col? There will always be unemployment col, and I would be those "7 million" wouldn't all agree with you.

The poor in LA, Mo and Texas has NOTHING to do with Liberal ANYTHING. It has a lot more to do with your attitude and the policies we are following!

Of course it does. As people have wrote about before, LA is a perfect example of liberal economics. Low income people living off the government and complaining when things happen to them. Please tell us what policies are keeping people poor in LA.

And col, why do keep avoiding Gideons posts?

The 60,000 jobs at GM and Ford are just the latest example of what is taking place. This morning Chrysler announced they will cut 20,000 jobs. YES the economy is just GREAT! FOR WHOM?

For many people col. Competition seems to be the reason car manufacturers are losing money, not the "economy" as a whole. Only someone like you will blame Bush for the business practices of companies. Gideon already explained this to you, but you keep ignoring him. Why don't you address his posts directly?

I don't see where they are blaming Bush.

DaimlerChrysler AG announced Tuesday morning that the company will cut 6,000 white-collar jobs, or about 20% of its administrative staff, by the end of 2008. The company wouldn’t detail where the reductions will take place, but most likely will occur in the company’s German headquarters. About a quarter of the administrative staff is in Auburn Hills, the company’s U.S. headquarters and home of the Chrysler Group. The moves are designed to reduce redundancies and encourage more collaboration across divisions, said DaimlerChrylser chairman Dieter Zetsche in a conference call with analysts and press. The move is expected to save the company about $1.2 billion a year. “Our objective in taking these actions is to create a lean, agile structure, with streamlined and stable processes that will unleash DaimlerChrysler’s full potential,” Zetsche said.

For the 15 million (5% of the work force)

You know something Col? That 5% of the work force that you spout about, and has been pointed out repeatedly, includes folks that CHOOSE not to work. Would you believe that folks like my wife (and Gideon's) and Texas Wahine and my mother-in-law (Pastor's wife) and many others ACTIVELY CHOOSE not to work for various reasons? These are included in that 5% of the work force you spout off about. Since it helps destroy the bleak picture that you're trying to paint here, I'm guessing this information will be ignored, as well.

Also, what about the folks (of whom there are many in Richmond, Petersburg, and surrounding areas) that flat out choose not to work and to live on the government dole? They make a better living doing that than they would working (with their lackadaisacal work ethic and lack of motivation). These folks who, also, ACTIVELY CHOOSE to not work, fit into your 5% of the work force.

As for your "DOES NOT ENABLE THEM TO LIVE" comment - what is your standard of living based off of? Having an apartment in a nice part of town? Multiple TV's and cable? Sorry these aren't necessities. Having a roof over your head, food on the table, these are necessities. Access to insurance? Nicety. Yeah, it's nice to have, but not necessary. You can get basic healthcare (childhood immunizations, wellbaby checks, etc) through the local health department. Illnesses can be treated through the local ER. Doesn't require insurance. Insurance is a nice thing to have, but food/shelter/clothing (and not the extremes that we're seeing either) are the basic requirements. Anything else is just icing.

In the Petersburg area, you can find a 1 BR apartment for $500/month. Not the greatest part of town, but liveable. Utilities there run in the neighbourhood of another $100 per month. Food, for one - three, can be had for < $100/month. Sure, you're not going to behaving filet mignon every night, but ramen and veggies, or beans and rice or peanut butter and jelly is enough to survive on. And all of this is doable on a minimum wage salary by someone who is willing to put in the 40+ hours required to do it.

That's living. Anything else is just icing on the cake. Too many of us don't want to admit that. Too many of us believe that we HAVE to have that big screen tv and the fancy furniture and the big house. We believe that we HAVE to have a telephone and a cell phone and high-speed internet connections. These are gravy.

I was just checking something - the McDonald's down the street from my house is hiring. The ENTRY level for a frycook if $6.50/hour. Last time I checked, that's $1.35 higher than minimum wage. That's an extra $216 per month (before taxes) above minimum wage.

The management company for the building I work in is advertising for a janitor - sweeping, emptying trash cans, cleaning bathrooms, etc - for $7.00 per hour ENTRY LEVEL. That's before shift differential's kick in. And that's without an ADVERTISED $1.50 raise after 6 months of satisfactory performance. With opportunities for merit raises on top of that.

Looking for even menial jobs in the classifieds, I can't see any that are offering minimum wage - other than deliberately part time employment that is advertised as part time employment. And there weren't but a handful of them - out of 10 pages of job ads in the classifieds.

If there are so many jobs leaving, why are we having difficulty filling positions for graphics artists (which make a decent wage) or instructors (again, professionals that make a decent wage)?

If there aren't any jobs available and all these people are jobless - why are there so many jobs being advertised (and I've seen the same job ad up for months)?

(sarcasm_mode = on // for the dense)
It can't possibly be that people CHOOSE not to get a job. Could it?
(sarcasm_mode = off)

Gas prices go up, car purchases go down, revenue for car companies drops, companies must cut jobs as a result. Seems like a pretty obvious consequence of related industries.

Minimum wage is less then 10K if you are paying payroll taxes. Even $8 per hour does not get a person to the poverty level which is about 17K. There are jobs in Florida but many do not pay enough to live. In the area I live in there are no $500 apartments. The energy bills including water are more then $100 per month and $100 for food is not possible. That does not include transportation, clothing medical or any other miscellaneous items.

Minimum wage is less then 10K if you are paying payroll taxes. Even $8 per hour does not get a person to the poverty level which is about 17K. There are jobs in Florida but many do not pay enough to live.

I see you ignored the previous posts. I guess you don't like hearing people prove you wrong.

In the area I live in there are no $500 apartments.

Then go out of your area.

The energy bills including water are more then $100 per month and $100 for food is not possible.

Wrong col.

Why don't you address the posts?

COL - $100 for food is very easy to do. One person - Raman noodles - 10/$1.00 - canned veggies - 3/$1.00. Bag of rice - < $2. Bag of dried beans ~ $1. A 5 lb bag of potatos? $3.

Doing food for one for a month doesn't mean eating out every single meal. It means being frugal and eating what one can afford.

And COL - basing the entire country on the bloated standard of living that Florida has - is fallacious.

Also, in a family with multiple people of working age (14+), then as many of the people who can, should be working. Single income at that point should not be an option.

Transportation - bus, carpool, bike, WALK - these are all valid options. Some might not be available due to location, but the locations where most of these aren't an option (due to rural location,etc) the cost of living is a lot lower.

Medical - free clinics, emergency only care. If you're actively working, trying to improve, and still need assistance - there are means available to get that assistance - without going to the government (fed at least).

Clothing? Good will, salvation army, consignment shops, and other thrift stores. It may not be as prestigious as Saks 5th Ave., but ... when you're working on a budget, then that's what you have to do. Sure, my kids may not be wearing Gap clothes, but they are well (and appropriately) dressed. I'd have to say ... about 70% of their clothes come from thrift stores like I mentioned above. Of the rest - we paid full price for maybe 10% of their total clothes (for 4 kids). The other 20% are birthday/christmas gifts from relatives or a "gee that looked cute and it's on sale" purchase by one set of grandparents for the other.

Living on minimum wage (or near minimum wage) isn't necessarily pleasant. It is, however, very doable. You may not be the richest person in town, but it can be done (and is done).

If $8/hour jobs are so unlivable, Gene, how come we don't hear more about folks dying of starvation 'cause they couldn't afford to even eat? We don't. And given the current "let's throw everything at the President and see what sticks" approach of the media and opposition party activists, this would be big, prominent, news items. And you don't hear a peep about them, do you?

What you are talking about is EXISTING not Living. There are millions that go to bed hungry at night. CNN had a news article about people in Ohio in line for food for up to 5 hours-- old and young alike. Hell the minimum water bill where I live in FL is $45 per month. Add electric with AC and you could see $150-200 total utility bills.

The rents at the low income non profit corporation I serve as President charge about $650 for a one bedroom and you must be low or very low income to get an apartment. There could be 20 - 25% of our population that is in the poverty or near poverty area. The conservatives just do not want to admit the depth of the poverty that exits in many areas of our country. Sections of Philadelphia and suburban Philadelphia (Norristown), Washington, most of the Deep South are loaded with poor!

CNN had a news article about people in Ohio in line for food for up to 5 hours-- old and young alike.

Please provide a link because I'm sure there's more to the story than what you say.

The rents at the low income non profit corporation I serve as President charge about $650 for a one bedroom and you must be low or very low income to get an apartment.

That's not everywhere in Col. In Florida, there are income restricted apartments that start out at around $400 a month, specifically designed for working class families. If you are the President of a corporation that charges $600 a month for the poor, then it's you who should be impeached.

Hell the minimum water bill where I live in FL is $45 per month. Add electric with AC and you could see $150-200 total utility bills. The rents at the low income non profit corporation I serve as President charge about $650 for a one bedroom and you must be low or very low income to get an apartment. There could be 20 - 25% of our population that is in the poverty or near poverty area. The conservatives just do not want to admit the depth of the poverty that exits in many areas of our country. Sections of Philadelphia and suburban Philadelphia (Norristown), Washington, most of the Deep South are loaded with poor!

You are STILL NOT getting it. Are you? You CAN NOT compare Florida to the "entire" country as far as cost of living goes! Florida's economy is "vastly" over-inflated because it's has a "tourist" economy! And living in Florida does NOT give you the insight to talk about the deep south! What you call poor is just fine with them. Having lived in Tenn, Va and Ar, I think I'm a little better qualified than you. And "before" you ask....YES I have lived in Florida too. Orlando to be exact! Rent in Tenn cost me $150 a month in a depressed area light were about $40 and I did VERY well on $100 a month for food. Of course I had a garden to off-set my expenditures. "Most" southerners hunt for food also (deer, rabbits, etc...) They also fish QUITE a bit! Which even further off-sets their food costs. So once again you are shown to be WRONG!

If you're too lazy to get an education or job skills, all you deserve is sustenance wages.

I have job skills, Ben...it's just the jobs for which I am trained aren't available in our area. And where the hell did you get that I was too lazy? Your comments are based on the perspective of one who came in on the middle of the book, read two chapters, and wrote a book review. But then, you're only reinforcing that namecalling and personal attacks are the only way you can confront the reality that others deal you. Fair enough.

See, COL - no one says that air conditioning is a NECESSITY for life. It is a luxury. A very NICE luxury, but a luxury, nonetheless.

Granted the life that I've described is closer to subsistence than anything else, but it's definitely a living. Living is a state of mind. I've met wealthy people that I would not consider as living - they don't enjoy life at all and everything is a burden to them. I've met middle and low income folks that are the same way.

I've also met some very poor people that live life to it's fullest - on $500 per month.

Whether you are LIVING, as opposed to EXISTING, is a state of mind. It has nothing to do with state of your wallet.

COL, here's something to try - fix your rectal-cranial inversion problem. Take a look around you and see what life is really like. You are one of those folks that is just EXISTING. You've got too much poison in you for you to truly live. So, does your job ("low income non profit corporation I serve as President") provide you with a "living wage" or just an "existing wage"?

I know which one I would answer for you.

The 60,000 jobs at GM and Ford are just the latest example of what is taking place. This morning Chrysler announced they will cut 20,000 jobs.

Supply/demand, Col. I find it patently absurd that you would demand these companies keep employees on the payroll when their cars aren't selling!

Note: My personal troll has followed me to this blog. I don't know why he has taken it upon himself to mount a personal crusade against me, but I'm tired of the personal attacks. I can control it on MY blog; I can't on yours. Therefore, when he pops up on others' threads, I will have to discontinue patronizing them, so if I don't comment, please don't take it as an offense.

Minimum wage is less then 10K if you are paying payroll taxes. Even $8 per hour does not get a person to the poverty level which is about 17K. There are jobs in Florida but many do not pay enough to live. In the area I live in there are no $500 apartments. The energy bills including water are more then $100 per month and $100 for food is not possible. That does not include transportation, clothing medical or any other miscellaneous items.

Then maybe people should get 2 jobs and not move to your area.

Read me...

COL and everyone else read this.

There are millions that go to bed hungry at night. CNN had a news article about people in Ohio in line for food for up to 5 hours

Are you saying that they are all in Ohio? Did you ever care about all those thousand who went to sleep hungry before 9/11? BTW where exactly is this article you speak of cause I can't find anything on it.

Hell the minimum water bill where I live in FL is $45 per month. Add electric with AC and you could see $150-200 total utility bills.

LOL, A/C? You should be ashamed of yourself.

I have read articles where some have said that the economy is not doing to good, that there are alot of unemployed poeple. What I have yet to see is all this, "millions go hungry to sleep", "millions without jobs", "millions can't afford bills". Where do you get you stories Col? I have used many different search engines and can't figure out where you get this stuff.

Everyone has to remember, that to Col, a "living" wage means enough money for a certain degree of luxury. His definition of not enough money is any amount that does not guarantee one can live comfortably. It seems to be his expectation that American Dream (2.5 kids, house with a white picket fence, two cars in the driveway) should be GIVEN to everyone in the US, that it is some sort of right.

The only thing anyone has a right to though are the opportunities to do well for themselves. It is not my responsibility, or yours, or the government's to give you a leg up. In an economy like we have today, the opportunity is there to do well if you're willing to make the necessary sacrifices. For some, those sacrifices are harder. But there's nothing out there that says the system MUST be equal at every level. The only thing it guarantees is that you will not be discriminated against for any reason aside from your own ability and performance.

You can not legislate these problems away. Attempting to legislate to keep the economy static and unchanging is the definition of a conservative sort of view point (the dictionary def of conservative mind you). It's an attempt to FORCE something to not change. Legislating the economy like you want Col is the economic equivalent to arguing against freeing slaves. "If we allow trends to continue, it will destroy us!" It's a fear of change.

Luddites, social conservatives, white supremacists, economic "liberals" all have one thing in common. They all strive to halt change/progress. It is their view that the way things are currently, or even how they were in some idealized past, are how things should ALWAYS be, and any change that occurs is bad.

Col is one of those guys who probably hated computers when they came out because of the changes they meant for society and the economy. Afterall, computers allowed for automation of many tasks that humans used to do and get paid for. We got robots on the assembly line taking away jobs as a result. Computers hurt the writing implement industry since people typed more. Computers gave birth to the Internet which gave us e-mail which is killing the US Postal Service. We all forget the drastic shift in our economy that computers brought about. Transplant Col a few decades back and he would probably be demanding legislation against the computerization of American Jobs!

The 60,000 jobs at GM and Ford are just the latest example of what is taking place. This morning Chrysler announced they will cut 20,000 jobs. YES the economy is just GREAT! FOR WHOM?

These layoffs really aren’t an indicator of the state of the economy. I heard a spokesman from Ford whining a few days ago about how much they have to pay in pensions and health care that foreign companies don’t have to pay. While that may cut into their profits, it has nothing to do with their sales being down. The bottom line is quality. People are buying foreign made automobiles because they are better built and far more reliable. American auto manufactures also lag in technology. Ford is just now jumping on the hybrid bandwagon, but with what technology? Technology from Toyota. For American manufacturers, the bottom line is profit. They save a penny here and a penny there and in the end, wind up with a two-ton piece of junk that has to go back to the shop every six months.

Every year American auto manufacturers come out with new models and new designs for existing models. This is expensive. Efficient companies like Honda have well engineered and well established vehicles, and they continue to refine them every year rather than reinvent them. Even though the original purchase price of a Honda is greater than a comparable Chevrolet, in the long run, they may be cheaper to own because of their much higher resale value and reliability.

But back to the economy. While the current economy isn’t bad, it’s nowhere near what it was like when Bush took office in 2001.

Transplant Col a few decades back and he would probably be demanding legislation against the computerization of American Jobs!

While computers did eliminate some jobs, the number of jobs that were created because of computers has been astronomical. The changes that are occurring now are causing us to lose jobs. Bush’s philosophy is the only thing that matters is profit for corporations and therefore, outsourcing jobs overseas is necessary. If he wanted to do what was right for the country, he’d do more to create and keep jobs here, like giving tax incentives to companies that create jobs here, penalizing companies that send jobs overseas, and closing the tax loophole that rewards companies for outsourcing jobs overseas.