The Confederate Flag

True Dabe...

There are two sides to every symbol, that which the displayer implies, and that which the observer infers. I'm often amazed at the directions posts to an article can go. Facets of the topic I would never have imagined are pointed out, dissected and even made fun of... Just as the meaning of an article can be taken as many ways as there are readers, the meaning of a symbol can mean as many things as there are people observing it.

I admit, I have a 3x5 Confederate Flag. It is folded up in a box somewhere in my basement. I bought it when I lived in Florida, to me, all it meant was "The South". I bought it with a few other mimentos of the Southern Living that I enjoyed. I've now spent about 1/4 of my 42 years in The South; I have had a great time living there. To me, the South does not mean Slavery, Racism or Hate. True, there was slavery, there is racism and there is much hate in the South, but that is not the end all be all of living there. I've lived in 11 States and 4 countries. Each had its version of hatred, and examples of racism. None should be defined exclusively by them.

Up until the year 1978, there was a law on the books in Missouri called "The Mormon Extermination Act". It was passed in the 1840s. It literally made killing Mormons not only legal, but considered a "patriotic act". If we (as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) were to follow the logic of the Confederate Battle Flag, we would consider Missouri a Hate-filled, Religiously bigoted state. However, we don't. Why? Because we don't choose to define the people of an entire state by the acts of a few.

Yes, you have every right to have visions of whips, chains, slave ships and human auctions when you see that flag, but if it impells you to further the hate and bigotry you loath about "The South", why would you?

Wow dabe, I'm really impressed by the fact that you know what's in the minds of other people when they display a certain flag. You should be on Letterman or something.

Citizen ParaTed2k

I 2nd that..... The symbol does not define the person,kinda like...racism...so i gues dabe could be considered racist...(not saying she is, but could.)

and we might as well damn the Dukes of Hazard and that hate-filled bigotry of the General Lee!!!!!!

Give me a break...

General Lee

ironically, Lee only joined the south because he loved virginia,his home state, he didn't give a damn about the south's ''cause''....

and we might as well damn the Dukes of Hazard and that hate-filled bigotry of the General Lee!!!!!!

I've wondered how that is going to be taken in our modern PC era. Bo, Luke and Daisy were tearing up the dirt roads of Hazzard County on TV long before PC reared its ugly head. I wonder how an institution as "diverse" and "un racist" as Hollywood could have forgotten such a blaring detail. ;~D

Link

"For most people, the image of the Confederate Flag conjures up the "blue cross with white stars on a red background" which is more properly known as the Confederate battle flag, but in fact, there were a number of Confederate Flags used during the war, and many regiments and companies had their own unique flags."

I've lived in Tennessee most of my life. I think interpreting that flag as racist is ridiculous. If the south wanted a racist flag, why didn't they make one that is obviously racist? Why doesn't it depict a slave being whipped? Would they have cared that it offended black people? I don't think so.

And you all think I invented this? It's just my interpretation? I don't think so. I'm just pointing it out. And, as I said, I recognize the controversy. But, if you're gonna post this flag, expect both sides.

As for the Dukes of Hazard, this is a dumb argument. Hollywood was clearly lilly white until very recently. It wasn't about forgetting a minor detail. It was about complete disregard of anything and anyone non-white. Besides, I hated that trashy show.

If someone claimed Islamic symbolism was too steeped in hate you'd be all over them like white on rice. I have known many black people in the South, and the only ones that ever seemed bothered by the flag were overtly racist themselves.

This arguement from the Left is always so transparently hypocritical. These people are supposedly concerned with pcensorship and freedom of expression, and would probably defend any terrorist or swastika-wearing monster that walked in.

If you can find yourself a means of expression that only pertains to people you HATE, though, well, then blanket judgmentalism and persecution is a grand thing, even if you know the majority of people who used the sybol down through History WEREN'T hateful or bigoted.

I see your point Dabe...BUT... if you present it in a friendlier way, sans condemnation and name calling, people might listen to what you have to say.
The 'crimes' comitted in the southern states were unforgiveable. The mentality that lingers on there as a result is frightening.
As one that participated for years in the civil rights movement, I encountered people with mentalities that could frighten anyone with a thinking mind. I also met warm, wonderful people from the south that were totally opposed to the attocities that took place in their areas.
The flag to many might represent a south that "could have been", not necessarilly the south that was.
Dabe, the only way to change a persons mind is to first listen to what they say... again I stress to you the importance of opening your own mind and being more tolerant of others without condemning so quickly.
That is really the only way " We Shall Overcome".

Another Symbolic thing that people now attribute with hate is the Swastika.

Here's a link about it. --> Link

It only became evil when the Nazi's used it.

Lucas... there is NO comparison between the swastika and the confederate flag. True, it had a history before the nazis stole it, but it has become the symbol of the nazis and their evil deeds as a result.
No symbol in recent history has become as hated as the swastika and the ideology associated with it.

there is NO comparison between the swastika

Actually, I disagree. The one and only comparison is that a symbol with an entirely different history, the swastika, was forever ruined by the Nazis. When my son was about 13, he came home from school one day with the swastika drawn on his pants. When I got upset, he told me that it was really a symbol of love and life, or whatever. I told him that the ancient historical meaning was irrelevant today, as it was coopted by the Nazis. I threw away the pants, and he understood.

Maybe, just maybe the confederate flag did have some historical notion of a southern pride absent racism. But, not anymore. It is clearly a symbol of pride that only whites would display, and it is now, without a doubt, mired in hate, having been coopted by a repressive and hateful segment of southern thinking. Any sense of good representation has been ruined by them. And, anyone who denies this is in LaLa Land. Whatever it meant then is no longer. It's a symbol of hate.

I'll maybe concede that all people who display this flag are not racists, maybe. But, they sure are in LaLa Land. It's an offensive symbol, plain and simple.

Reply By: Lucas BaileyPosted: Monday, May 16, 2005Another Symbolic thing that people now attribute with hate is the Swastika.Here's a link about it. --> LinkIt only became evil when the Nazi's used it.

Well, actually, the Nazis did invent the swastika, or at least the 45 degrees rotated version of it. So this symbol is rightfully considered evil, because it is evil.

Yes, you have every right to have visions of whips, chains, slave ships and human auctions when you see that flag, but if it impells you to further the hate and bigotry you loath about "The South", why would you?

It's not about hating the south. That's totally missing the point. It's about hating a symbol of hate, which I find offensive. It's about the symbol, and the people who refuse to acknowledge its symbology.

I'll maybe concede that all people who display this flag are not racists, maybe. But, they sure are in LaLa Land. It's an offensive symbol, plain and simple.

OK.... but again I stress the point that you have to be more tolerant of fellow bloggers. You know absolutely nothing about DrMiller, yet you have us believe he is an awful person, full of hate. I don't agree with much of what he says, but that does not make him a Jew hater or a racist.
Ease up...you'll get more credibility that way.

It's not about hating the south. That's totally missing the point. It's about hating a symbol of hate, which I find offensive. It's about the symbol, and the people who refuse to acknowledge its symbology.

I agreed from the beginning that the symbol means racism to some... but if a person automatically assumes the person displaying the flag is a racist, aren't they being at least a little prejudice in their assumptions?

The flag to many might represent a south that "could have been", not necessarilly the south that was.

And that's my point. To deny the controversy is denying that it actually does represent a "south that was."

I am so sick of racism. I mean really, really sick of it. I am vocal about it whenever I encounter it. Lots of people are really clueless, and don't know that their racism is insidious and hurtful. They think they're just so wonderfully tolerant. It amazes me how many times I've heard the express, "Jewish fire", and the speaker had no idea that it came from the notion that Jews are rich and selfish and usurors. It's racist. Whenever I hear it, I always back up the person and point it out. I make the same comparison with the confederate flag. It's a symbol of hanging onto a southern heritage that honors southern white bells and gentlemen, plantations, and hate. It is completely devoid of the notion that those wonderful things harbored slaves and fought to keep them. It's a symbol, at the very, very least of LaLa Land, a south that could have been to some people, but was taken way by a bloody war that prevented the grisly perpetuation of slavery.

I also find it very hard to imagine that anyone who would display this flag would do so without being aware of full symbology of it. That's why I tend to be so condemning. If it really is like my comparison above to the Jewish fire, then I stand corrected. But, I doubt it.

I also find it very hard to imagine that anyone who would display this flag would do so without being aware of full symbology of it. That's why I tend to be so condemning. If it really is like my comparison above to the Jewish fire, then I stand corrected. But, I doubt it.

Dabe... I know you are a good person with a good heart. Believe it or not we are both on the same side...but in our fight against wars, racism and every other inhumanity against man, we must try to get as many allies to our side as is humanly possible.
Constantly attacking anyone who disagrees with us leads only to alienation. You have too many good things to say Dabe...don't lose that audience. If you do, we all suffer.

"I am so sick of racism."

I am so sick of people who see racism everywhere they look, unless it is someone they agree with, and then they are oblivious to it. Why not take some of this ire over to Reiki House's blog and deal with the assertion that concentration camps weren't all that bad, and that Hitler didn't really hate Jews, and that 9-11 was a zionist plot. You post on that waste's blog and just overlook racial hate.

Your choice of outrage is pretty transparent. This is about people you hate, not a symbol of hate.

I love the pot calling the kettle black with no inkling of what the kettle is!  As you point your racist bigotted finger at those who you do not understand or even try to, you point 3 back at yourself as the purveyor of hate and intolerance.

I dont hate you.  I pity you.  One so lost in their hate and bigotry that they cannot see that the pot is as black as the kettle.

Pathetic.

I think that you're right to be concerned about racism. We all should be.

BUT...the cause of racism isn't a silly piece of orange cloth with blue stripes with stars in them. The cause of racism is ignorance. And instead of pointing fingers about who's got what packed in a box somewhere, because really, who gives a damn?, why don't you write something a little more constructive--like how we can be more considerate towards those who would normally be treated unfairly, etc.?

The VAST majority of people do not even associate the confederate flag with racism and hate. They associate it with the "South". My guess is that even black people, and probably several million of them, own a confederate flag and display it at their home or maybe even have it packed away in a box somewhere, not to be racist against themselves, but to remind themselves or their Southern heritiage and so that they, and others, including "white supremecist scumbags" what has happened in the past, and what's happening now, and that we need to remember and continue to work hard so that something like that NEVER happens again.

we need to remember and continue to work hard so that something like that NEVER happens again

Right-On Sister!!

And I see that you're very passionate about things, and that's great and all, but if I said something and you took it as being a "racist" comment, jumping down my throat like a maniac isn't going to help me realize the err of my ways. No. I'm not going to hear a damn word you have to say because you're so forceful and freakish about it. Just a little something to consider when you're standing up for every minority out there.