Bottom line, this administration was in a rush to go to war, Bush wanted to "Prove" something to his father. We were misled with the pretext for that war, and then expected to follow along to the end despite the fact that the entire basis of it was fabricated. Worse, their doctrine for the war was flawed, but once the hawks start beating the drums of war, its pretty hard to stop them. It was clear they were more worried about finding reasons to go to war, than they were for reasons to NOT go to war. Thats a flawed logic, and the very failure of this war demonstrates how flawed that logic was.

Now we are losing 5-35 good young men per day and for what? So iraqi's can vote in a contrived election staged by their occupiers? Sorry, but thats not enough to get my patriotic ideals excited. I feel truely sorry for anyone that is excited about this whole matter, they have a detachment with reality that is quite alarming. Whats even more startling is how Americans were so keen to buy into all of it, then accept that the reasoning was flawed, then willing to actually continue along with a flawed doctrine! Its astounding! When a system or plan is flawed, and you continue to attempt to rectify it and fail, then its time to extract yourself from the situation. America has lost almost all credibility already, so a withdrawl wouldn't mean much of anything to anyone, and would just save some innocent lives.

Before anyone tries to tell me how the military machine works, think again, I have 4 years of experiance leading men in the military, including the first gulf war. Before you label me a bleeding heart liberal, think again, i'm a moderate republican. Hardline conservatives are dangerous people, and are quick to label anyone that doesn't agree with their ideals as "Foolish Liberals", but I caution you, Americans are starting to wise up, and the hardline rightwing movement is losing ground quite quickly.

Bottom line, that phrase designed to pre-emptively dismiss out of hand any argument to the contrary, it is too soon to arrive at conclusions about whether the decision to eliminate Saddam's regime & liberate Iraq was a good thing or not. I am grateful to you, JTurnas, for your service to our country, but you are presumptious in the extreme in claiming to know the President's motives. You are welcome to that opinion, but it certainly does not constitute the "bottom line," no matter your military experience and political self-designation.

And contrary to your claims, I strongly suspect that there a many thousands of Iraqis who would feel cruelly betrayed by an abrupt American departure - it might mean a lot to them.

Cheers,
Daiwa

Reply By: JTurnasPosted: Saturday, January 29, 2005Bottom line, this administration was in a rush to go to war, Bush wanted to "Prove" something to his father. We were misled with the pretext for that war, and then expected to follow along to the end

switch parties NOW>>>. your more than 2/3rds way there already.., take deep breath and chant, wrong war, wrong time, wrong place... I am hanoijohn kerry I am hanoi john kerry.. may be things will work out for ya..

Reply By: DaiwaPosted: Saturday, January 29, 2005Bottom line, that phrase designed to pre-emptively dismiss out of hand any argument to the contrary, it is too soon to arrive at conclusions about whether the decision to eliminate Saddam's regime & liberate Iraq was a good thing or not. I am grateful to you, JTurnas, for your service to our country, but you are presumptious in the extreme in claiming to know the President's motives. You are welcome to that opinion, but it certainly does not constitute the "bottom line," no matter your military experience and political self-designation.And contrary to your claims, I strongly suspect that there a many thousands of Iraqis who would feel cruelly betrayed by an abrupt American departure - it might mean a lot to them.

from your thought to the brains of liberals everywhere...

"Now we are losing 5-35 good young men per day and for what? So iraqi's can vote in a contrived election staged by their occupiers? Sorry, but thats not enough to get my patriotic ideals excited. "

That betrays your bias. You assume that the election is "contrived". You assume that nothing will come of this before the endeavor is even complete. That isn't smart, or informed, it is defeatist. Sure, many people were defeatist before it started, and throughout, but that doesn't mean their dismal view of current events need be true.

Someone is always going to poo-poo any endeavor. Why? Because there are always disingenuous partisans, willing to attack any endeavor just to be on the other side. Ted Kennedy is a good example. It is much more than predicting failure, I think he truly wishes failure. He has a lot invested in it. The political mileage he could get out of those "I told ya so"s, to him, is far more important than his integrity as a leader.

Reply #30 By: BakerStreet - 1/29/2005 7:08:32 PM

than his integrity as a leader.

come on now!!!! integrity and.. Ted Kennedy in same paragraph? surely you jest?

"Ted Kennedy calls out Bush on Iraq"

Reply #26 By: JTurnas - 1/29/2005 6:16:44 PM Bottom line, this administration was in a rush to go to war, Bush wanted to "Prove" something to his father. We were misled with the pretext for that war, and then expected to follow along to the end despite the fact that the entire basis of it was fabricated. Worse, their doctrine for the war was flawed, but once the hawks start beating the drums of war, its pretty hard to stop them. It was clear they were more worried about finding reasons to go to war, than they were for reasons to NOT go to war. Thats a flawed logic, and the very failure of this war demonstrates how flawed that logic was. Now we are losing 5-35 good young men per day and for what? So iraqi's can vote in a contrived election staged by their occupiers? Sorry, but thats not enough to get my patriotic ideals excited. I feel truely sorry for anyone that is excited about this whole matter, they have a detachment with reality that is quite alarming. Whats even more startling is how Americans were so keen to buy into all of it, then accept that the reasoning was flawed, then willing to actually continue along with a flawed doctrine! Its astounding! When a system or plan is flawed, and you continue to attempt to rectify it and fail, then its time to extract yourself from the situation. America has lost almost all credibility already, so a withdrawl wouldn't mean much of anything to anyone, and would just save some innocent lives. Before anyone tries to tell me how the military machine works, think again, I have 4 years of experiance leading men in the military, including the first gulf war. Before you label me a bleeding heart liberal, think again, i'm a moderate republican. Hardline conservatives are dangerous people, and are quick to label anyone that doesn't agree with their ideals as "Foolish Liberals", but I caution you, Americans are starting to wise up, and the hardline rightwing movement is losing ground quite quickly.

Equals the left talking out of their second mouth. Have you anything itelligent to add? I thought not.

Do you have kids? How about we send them over, and then see how you feel. Tough talk is easy, when you or your kids aren't in the line of fire.

I do, and did.  Now you want to eat your own shit?  or just keep flinging it.

Bottom line, this administration was in a rush to go to war,

No Bottom line, we were attacked.  We did not declare the war, it was decalred on us.  But you and your ilk would sue for peace just to avoid any war, even if the enemy has stated no quarter.  You are a sad pathetic fool.  By the grace of brave men and women who you are not worthy to even grovel at their feet, you can afford that luxury.

Before anyone tries to tell me how the military machine works, think again, I have 4 years of experiance leading men in the military, including the first gulf war. Before you label me a bleeding heart liberal, think again, i'm a moderate republican. Hardline conservatives are dangerous people, and are quick to label anyone that doesn't agree with their ideals as "Foolish Liberals", but I caution you, Americans are starting to wise up, and the hardline rightwing movement is losing ground quite quickly.

No, you re just a liar.  Thanks for proving it.

Flaming is easy, and uninspiring. The lack of intelligent, point by point rebuttals to my factually accurate statements illustrates that I am correct, and that my logic is irrefutable. Simple gradeschool one liners telling me to eat shit do nothing but strengthen my position, and completely remove your credibility. I guess if I was in the position you are in, the next thing i'd do would be to extract myself from this conversation, and immediately head to the next blog to troll.

No Bottom line, we were attacked. We did not declare the war, it was decalred on us. But you and your ilk would sue for peace just to avoid any war, even if the enemy has stated no quarter

Iraq attacked us? Dang, wonder where I was when that happened? Is that the best comeback you can muster? What kind of doctor are you? Doctor Suess?

Iraq attacked us? Dang, wonder where I was when that happened? Is that the best comeback you can muster? What kind of doctor are you? Doctor Suess?

try again chicken little.  They attacked us almost daily for 12 years.  But I guess you dont consider soldiers of the US Armed forces to be anything but target practice.  You really are a small individual.

bye troll

Flaming is easy, and uninspiring. The lack of intelligent, point by point rebuttals to my factually accurate statements illustrates that I am correct, and that my logic is irrefutable. Simple gradeschool one liners telling me to eat shit do nothing but strengthen my position, and completely remove your credibility. I guess if I was in the position you are in, the next thing i'd do would be to extract myself from this conversation, and immediately head to the next blog to troll.

All praise the new god!  pay homage to he who is so wise as to just shame all rational and thoughtful debate!  bow down to his omniscience!  Praise Jrunass.

Reply By: EvorgPosted: Saturday, January 29, 2005"Ted Kennedy calls out Bush on Iraq"

now thats funny,,,, and yet profound...

Evorg -

JTurnas -

The lack of "point by point rebuttals" might mean a lack of "points." And your childish claim that Bush just wanted to "prove" something to his father clearly showed your closed mindset and bias - not much point in engaging you in debate. Don't bitch about getting what you asked for - nothing.

Cheers,
Daiwa

Dr. Guy

Iraq did not attack us. Yes they shot at out aircraft flying over IRAQ. The notion that the Iraq war is making us safer or is part of the "War on Terrorism" is pure BS. We have created more enemies by attacking Iraq than friends! We have created terrorism in Iraq. We have committed $300 Billion, 1,400 lives, 10,000 combat injuries, 15,000 non combat injuries with no end in sight. This war was a BIG mistake that BUSH made! These are the facts which are neither Republican or Democrat.

Reply By: colgene(Anonymous User)Posted: Sunday, January 30, 2005Dr. GuyIraq did not attack us. Yes they shot at out aircraft flying over IRAQ.

No officer, I did not attack that man , i just punched him in the eye cause he was on MY lawn... I wonder how that would fly in a court of law..

No officer, I did not attack that man , i just punched him in the eye cause he was on MY lawn... I wonder how that would fly in a court of law..

About as well as a pig!

This war was a BIG mistake that BUSH made! These are the facts which are neither Republican or Democrat.

60-70% of Iraqis risked their lives today to tell you that you're wrong!

In other countries, Iraqis spent a lot of money and travelled 100s of miles to go to the polls and tell you that you're wrong.

I am now, spending next to nothing and travelling nowhere, but still taking the time to tell you, you are dead wrong!!!

60-70% of Iraqis risked their lives today to tell you that you're wrong! In other countries, Iraqis spent a lot of money and travelled 100s of miles to go to the polls and tell you that you're wrong. I am now, spending next to nothing and travelling nowhere, but still taking the time to tell you, you are dead wrong!!!

insightful ted!

The fact that many Iraqis voted has nothing to do with the fact that Iraq did not threaten us. We are not the world's liberator. We have not made America safer by the Iraq War! Saddam was a bad person but it was not our job to remove him with US Forces! That policy will not work because we create millions of new enemies and are looked at as the bad guy. In addition, we can not afford tax cuts and wars. In every other major war, we asked the people to pay higher, not lower taxes to pay for the added cost. Where is the $80 billion to come from that Bush is about to ask for? Why was that not part of the normal budget request? Did we not know of the war when the 2004-05 budget was prepared?

Bush never maskes an error or tells a lie. So I guess the Iraq War with its human and financial cost is a liberal story!

Reply #48 By: Colgene (Anonymous) - 1/30/2005 1:38:37 PM The fact that many Iraqis voted has nothing to do with the fact that Iraq did not threaten us. We are not the world's liberator. We have not made America safer by the Iraq War! Saddam was a bad person but it was not our job to remove him with US Forces! That policy will not work because we create millions of new enemies and are looked at as the bad guy. In addition, we can not afford tax cuts and wars. In every other major war, we asked the people to pay higher, not lower taxes to pay for the added cost. Where is the $80 billion to come from that Bush is about to ask for? Why was that not part of the normal budget request? Did we not know of the war when the 2004-05 budget was prepared? Bush never maskes an error or tells a lie. So I guess the Iraq War with its human and financial cost is a liberal story!

Yes i AGREE WITH YOU TOTALLY... YOUR RIGHT!!! you win>>>your perfect with your impartial anal isis opps did i mispell that?

Now get outta my blog ya maron... go stink up the cyber air somewhere else.

By your definition, nearly all military actions were wrong.

Explain why we invaded Europe in 1944? Because based on what you were saying, it was wrong too. Germany wasn't threatening us and by 1994 it was pretty obvious that Germany was no longer any sort of threat to the United States. And a lot more than 1,400 Americans died in that.

Could it be, just maybe, your hatred of Bush is clouding your views? Either that or your knowledge on history is imperfect.