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Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Given the ongoing discussion of the legal dispute between Stardock and Paul Reiche and Fred Ford, designers of Star Control I and II, I wanted to take time to make Stardock's position clear and address inaccuracies that have been promoted.

As the need arises, I’ll continue to update this post with additional questions and answers.

Q: What are the issues in dispute?

A: On the eve of launch of the beta of Star Control: Origins in October 2017, a game Stardock has spent the past four years working on, Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford, the designers of Star Control II for Accolade 25 years ago announced a new game, Ghosts of the Precursors as a “direct” sequel to Star Control even going so far as to promote it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.

They did this despite knowing Stardock had acquired the Star Control IP in 2013 and knowing before hand our announcement schedule. Their actions created confusion in the market as to the origin of Star Control games which is why we have trademark laws. 

When Stardock asked that they cease and desist marketing their game as a sequel to Star Control they refused and began demanding that the sale of the DOS games, which had been on sale continuously since before Stardock acquired the IP and for which they had been receiving royalties for during the entire time cease and began to disparage Stardock publicly in the press. 

Despite Stardock's best efforts to reach a private, mutually beneficial co-existence agreement, Paul and Fred responded with increasingly hostile, misleading public attacks and served Steam and GOG with DMCA take-down notices on all of the classic DOS games, including Star Control 3 which they had no involvement with all while continuing to promote their new game as the "true" sequel to Star Control.

In addition, Paul Reiche and Fred Ford also began to claim that various features of Star Control: Origins violated their copyrights such as the ship designer, user interface similarities and other elements that are not subject to copyright protection (you can’t copyright an idea and Star Control itself was inspired by many other games). They also began to demand special access to Star Control: Origins to inspect it and demanded the removal of the ship designer,

As a result of their broad interpretation of what they believe they have rights to combined with their willingness to instruct their lawyers to issue a DMCA take down notices, even on titles in which they had no involvement in, combined with their refusal to cease promoting their game as the sequel to Star Control, Stardock was forced to file a complaint over their continuing trademark infringement.

In retaliation, Reiche and Ford filed a countersuit seeking to cancel the Star Control trademark and for copyright infringement due to the sale of the classic Star Control games on GOG and Steam and are even suing GOG despite the fact that Reiche and Ford were the ones who claim to have helped get the classic Star Control games onto GOG.

Q: Why did Stardock file the initial lawsuit against Paul and Fred?

A: We had no choice after Paul and Fred filed DMCA claims against the distribution not only of Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which they admit they had no involvement.  The DMCA claims were reversed, but it was clear that our ability to create more experiences in the Star Control multiverse for fans would be at risk if they are allowed to continue to misrepresent their new game as being associated with Star Control without a license while simultaneously making broad, unsupportable claims of ownership on ideas and concepts that are present not just in Star Control games but games in general.  

Q: How did these unfortunate events come to pass?

A: Here is a timeline of the order of events:

  1. Stardock acquires the Star Control brand, copyright to Star Control 3, the license to use the Star Control classic characters, lore and the right to distribute the classic DOS games.  The DOS games are already available on GOG  with Atari listed as the publisher. (2013)
  2. Stardock discuss plans for the new Star Control.  They state that their employment by Activision prevents them from working on a new Star Coxntrol game and request that we not use the aliens from Star Control 2 but do not contest Stardock's right to do so.  (2013)
  3. Upon learning that Activision has blocked their ability to be involved and that Paul and Fred hope to one day to continue their stories, Stardock offers to transfer its rights to Star Control to them, thus uniting the Star Control brand with Paul and Fred's licensed IP.  (2013)
  4. Paul and Fred ask what Stardock acquired from Atari to which Stardock responds: The trademark, assets to Star Control 3 and the right to sell distribute, market and promote the original trilogy.
  5. Paul acknowledges Stardock's position and asks how much it cost.
  6. Paul and Fred politely decline the offer to acquire the Star Control IP. (2013)
  7. Stardock announces a reboot of Star Control and explicitly states that it will not include the characters from the classic series out of respect for Paul and Fred. (2013)
  8. Stardock spends the next 4 years and millions of dollars developing Star Control: Origins. (2013-2017)
  9. Stardock provides Paul and Fred regular updates on progress including video of pre-alpha footage, design notes, screenshots.  Relations are amicable and supportive. (2013-2017)
  10. Stardock updates Paul and Fred on Star Control: Origins release schedule and begins planning its 25th anniversary which will include releasing the classic games onto more channels.  Stardock asks if there would be any interest in having SC2 ships appear in Super-Melee. The games are submitted and approved by Steam in preparation (Summer 2017).
  11. Paul and Fred contact Stardock to inform them that they will be announcing a new game that will utilize the characters from their universe.  (Fall 2017)
  12. Stardock is both pleased and concerned about the timing of their plan, points out the licensing agreement would allow Stardock to use their IP (albeit at a higher royalty than Stardock was hoping for). Stardock asks that they coordinate these announcements together ensure there is no confusion and about the games appearing competitive. (Fall 2017)   
  13. Paul and Fred state they plan to make a sequel to Star Control II which would violate Stardock's trademark rights (you can't claim your product is a sequel to another company's product).  Paul and Fred also assert that Stardock does not have a license to their IP.
  14. In the email below Paul and Fred state that each party should work within its respective rights: Stardock having the Star Control trademarks and Paul and Fred owning all the IP rights to the works they created. Note that at this point, Paul and Fred recognized that owning the registration to the Star Control trademark also includes many common law trademarks. Hence "trademarks" plural.
  15. Stardock responds stating that as far as Stardock is aware, while Paul and Fred own the IP they created, Stardock does have an active licensing agreement that controls how that IP can and can't be used.  Stardock also reiterates that it has not used this license out of respect for Paul and Fred. (October 2017)
  16. Stardock states its concern at the idea of Paul and Fred representing their game as a "direct sequel", asks to schedule a call to discuss.  Note that at this point, Brad, like many, is under the impression that Paul and Fred essentially created Star Control on their own, a two-man team with licensed music was not uncommon thing back in 1992 (Stardock later re-evaluates that position after learning that the project had a large budget for 1990 and immense talent on it). (October 2017)
  17. Paul and Fred respond that they simply don't agree but provide no evidence as to why the licensing agreement would have expired. (October 2017)
  18. Stardock provides its reviewed legal position.  Stardock isn't using any IP from the classic games other than the right to market and sell them as they have been for several years.  (October 2017)
  19. Stardock points out that it has a license to the IP to use provided it pays a royalty of 10% (which is why Stardock has asked in the past for a new licensing agreement as 10% is too much for a cameo of a classic character). Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell suggests talking on the phone to iron things out. (October 2017).
  20. Email includes proposal:
  21. Paul and Fred refuse Stardock's proposal and begin to demand changes to Star Control: Origins.
  22. Paul and Fred, knowing the date Stardock was planning to announce the Fleet Battles beta, preemptively announce Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control II; use the Star Control II box (which is owned by Stardock) as the only art on the page for it; promote it to the media and to social media as the "true" sequel to Star Control.  (October)
  23. Despite having just stated that their efforts should be "separated" by each parties rights (Stardock with the trademarks) Paul and Fred almost immediately violate that understanding by using the Star Control trademarks throughout their announcement.
  24. The Star Control trademark is mentioned 4 times in the announcement, each with an (R) without mentioning Stardock leading a reasonable consumer to believe it is their mark (Ghosts of the Precursors is listed once). 
  25. Paul and Fred claim they "released" Star Control II on the same page that shows Star Control II with the Accolade mark misleading the relationship between Accolade and Paul and Fred (who, regardless of their tremendous work, were contracted by Accolade to create content that was then licensed into Accolade's product).
  26. The media follow-up by referring to it as "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors". (October)
  27. Paul and Fred promote the idea that it's Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors and not its own game:
  28. The above is one example among dozens.
  29. Paul and Fred publicize coverage of their new game with each post using the Star Control mark but not a single one using the term "Ghosts of the Precursors".  Looking below, what's the name of their new game?
  30. Many posts and articles appear, endorsed by Paul and Fred that state that their new game is a "direct sequel" to Star Control.  Some refer to it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.
  31. Stardock moves forward on its 25th anniversary plans, release the beta of Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles beta and relaunches the classic DOS games for the 25th anniversary on Steam. (October)
  32. Paul and Fred's attorney contacts Stardock's CEO.  This is the first time lawyers have been involved.  Lawyers take over. (October)
  33. Paul and Fred begin to demand that Stardock begin policing the Star Control community for fan art that they believe violates their rights (including members of this forum and on Steam). (October)
  34. Paul and Fred begin demanding the removal of features from Star Control: Origins including the ship designer (a feature that has been part of Stardock's games for over a decade). (October)
  35. Paul and Fred begin demanding insider builds of Star Control: Origins for inspection and begin insisting various broad features are their property despite having no right to do so. (October)
  36. Paul and Fred reject numerous attempts to create a co-existence agreement that would permit Ghosts of the Precursors to go forward independently.   (November)
  37. Paul and Fred insist they have the right to associate their game with Stardock's trademarks including referring to their game as the "true" sequel to Star Control. (November)
  38. Paul and Fred demand that the DOS games be removed from distribution while still providing no evidence to support their claim that the agreement had expired. (November)
  39. Paul and Fred begin to make public defamatory blog posts and tweets about Stardock. (December)
  40. Paul and Fred file DMCA notices against Steam and GOG not just for Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which Stardock holds the federally registered copyright for and that Paul and Fred had no involvement in. (December)
  41. Stardock's attorneys file a suit against Paul and Fred for trademark infringement and other causes of action. (December)
  42. Paul and Fred's attorney files a lawsuit against Stardock alleging copyright infringement and other causes of action. (February).
  43. Paul and Fred's PR firm releases a press release to the wire services accusing Stardock of "copyright theft" do press interviews attacking Stardock. (February)
  44. This post is initially made. (February)
  45. Paul and Fred post an email exchange they claim is between themselves and Atari, something they had not shown to Stardock and still have not provided to Stardock to evaluate. 
  46. Paul and Fred post what they claim is a Stardock settlement proposal in violation of federal rule 408. Stardock denies the accuracy. (March)
  47. Paul and Fred's PR firm targets Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell personally on Twitter for abuse with an inflammatory and completely inaccurate social media post. (March)
  48. Paul and Fred like a tweet that purports that these activities have cost Stardock up to 50% of potential sales and may lead to review bombing of the final game:  (March)
  49. To make clear that Stardock's concern is regarding the protection of its Star Control IP and not the sales of Star Control: Ur-Quan Masters, it decides that it will be suspend sales of the classic games until the dispute is resolved starting April 4. (March 2018).

Q: Don't Paul and Fred contend that the 1988 licensing agreement with Accolade has expired?

A: That is their position.  However, since the dispute began, Stardock has chosen to err on the side of caution and operate as if that is the case.   Stardock requested that GOG and Steam remove the games for sale pending a resolution.  The 1988 agreement, however, does not have anything to do with the Star Control trademarks were were always owned by Accolade and were assigned to Stardock.   

Stardock's ownership of the Star Control trademark is incontestable.  You can review the federal registration that dates back to the 1990s here.

Q: But isn't it true that Star Control: Origins has very similar gameplay to Star Control II? That you explore planets, travel through hyperspace to different star systems, meet with aliens? Couldn't their copyright of Star Control II mean that Star Control: Origins is too similar?

A: You cannot copyright an idea.  Putting aside that Star Control itself borrowed many ideas from many other games, copyright protects creative expression. Not game play.  

There are articles you can read that discuss this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_clone 

https://venturebeat.com/2013/03/16/defeating-mobile-game-clones-why-copyright-protection-is-not-enough/ 

https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/11752/is-it-legally-possible-to-make-a-clone-of-the-game 

Obviously, anyone who has ever played Angry Birds or Candy Crunch already knows this.

That said, Star Control: Origins is not a clone of Star Control II.  The 25-year gap in game technology allows Star Control: Origins to deliver a much richer experience.  So while the core concepts remain true: You are the captain of a starship traveling through this part of the galaxy, meeting aliens, engaging in battles, exploring planets, the implementation is very different.

In short: Gameplay clones aren't illegal and even if it were illegal, Star Control: Origins is not a clone. 

 

Q: Why does Stardock claim that Paul and Fred were not the creators of Star Control?

A: Paul and Fred were the designers of Star Control I and II.  In the credits, on the box and elsewhere they had previously officially listed themselves as either developers or designers.  

While Stardock has no objection to “creators” in the casual sense, legally, and when trying to promote a product in commerce, they are not. Most of the Copyrighted material people think of as being important to Star Control was created and owned by others. 

For 25 years, Designer was their official designation.   

It is Stardock's opinion that they have begun to focus on referring to themselves as "creators" in their marketing in order to give the impression that Ghosts of the Precursors would have the the same creative core as Star Control II.   This is not the case.

What most people do not realize is Star Control II had, in essence, the dream Sci-Fi team as mentioned in this 25th anniversary tribute. The lead animator went on to lead the animation at Pixar and is the director of the Minions movies.  Many of the alien designs were created by the artist who went on to design Darth Maul and other Star Wars and Marvel movie characters.  Many of the most quoted lines came from seasoned Sci-Fi writers.  The engaging music was created by others.

We respect Paul and Fred’s crucial contributions as well as the rest of the talented team who worked on Star Control.  

Q: Who owns the Star Control trademark?

A: Stardock is the legal owner of the federally registered trademark for Star Control.  You can view it here. https://www.trademarkia.com/star-control-75095591.html 

Q: What does Stardock want out of this lawsuit?  

A:  Our ONLY goal is to protect our ability to tell more stories in the Star Control multiverse.  We remain fans of Paul and Fred and their contributions to Star Control.  However, given the confusion they’ve created in the market by promoting their new game as a “true sequel” to Star Control II combined with their abuse of the DMCA system to take down even Star Control games they had no involvement with, we are forced to act to prevent them from continuing to create confusion.   

Consider some of your favorite games or movies. Now imagine if someone instrumental to the development of that game or movie went on to claim to be making a sequel to that game or movie without the consent of the owners of that trademark? What would be the result?

Q: But doesn't Paul and Fred own all the in-game IP?

A: Paul and Fred own whatever IP they created.  What that is remains to be seen. Stardock does not claim to own any copyrighted material within Star Control II which is why the new Star Control: Origins is set in its own universe with its own characters and story.

However, as of April 2018, neither Paul or Fred had any rights to any of the art and much of the writing in Star Control II. However, even if they did, it would be irrelevant as Stardock isn't using any copyrighted material from Star Control 1, 2, or 3 in the new Star Control games.

On the trademark side, simply because you were contracted to work on a game does not grant you the right to make a new game and claim it is related regardless of what copyrights you think you may own (otherwise, you could argue that Unity and Epic could start to make sequels to other people's games).

For example, Paul Reiche is the President of an Activision studio.  Blizzard is another Activision studio.  Stardock was once contracted to develop a StarCraft expansion (StarCraft: Retribution). One can imagine the response Stardock would receive it it were to announce a new game as a "direct sequel" to StarCraft: Retribution.

By contrast, not only did Paul and Fred announce their new game as a "direct" and later "true" sequel to Star Control, they even used the Star Control II box, that was acquired by Stardock, to promote it.

As much as we respect Paul and Fred, the fact is, Paul Reiche was contracted as an independent contractor (not as a company) by Accolade to develop Star Control for Accolade.  This is a fairly routine method that developers get products made (Stardock's own Fences, WindowBlinds, Groupy, IconPackager, etc. were developed using the same method).

Q: Do these legal issues have any impact on Star Control: Origins?

A: UPDATE:

Apparently yes.  Despite Star Control: Origins having nothing to do with Reiche and Ford's games, they have filed DMCA take down notices to Steam and GOG to take down Star Control: Origins.  They claim (with not specificity) that they own copyrights in Star Control: Origins

Game sites don't make legal judgments on the merits.  They simply remove the content.  No one, to our knowledge, has ever tried to do this on a shipping game before.  

You can read our response here.

 

Q: Why did Stardock trademark Ur-Quan Masters, Super Melee, and other names from the original games? 

A: Once Paul and Fred began to challenge the validity of our intellectual property we were forced to take steps to solidify our common law rights. Specifically, Paul and Fred have worked to try to separate Stardock's Star Control mark from its association with the classic games.  

The reason companies were bidding to acquire the Star Control trademarks and willing to pay $300,000 for it was for the association with the classic series.  The trademarks, being in active use in connection with the beloved classic series, made it valuable.  

When Paul and Fred began to seek to cancel the Star Control mark and make public statements that Star Control: Origins isn't related to the classic series Stardock felt obligated to respond by reinforcing its intellectual property rights to the classic series.  

As background: Stardock always had the common law trademark to Ur-Quan Masters. It's the sub-title to Star Control II after all and was, by Paul and Fred's admission, available in commerce on GOG even before Stardock was involved. Super-Melee is literally a promoted feature from Star Control. The alien names are so strongly associated with Star Control that if you Google Star Control aliens they come up as the first entry.  

They have made it very clear that they believe that they have the right to associate their new game with Star Control on the basis that they have previously licensed content to Star Control games. They have no such right.

Q: Why did Stardock really need to trademark the Star Control 2 alien names?

A: Star Control fans expect new Star Control games to have the Spathi, Ur-Quan, Orz, etc.   We originally chose not to include them in Star Control: Origins in deference to Paul and Fred who asked us not to.  

However, in December 2017, Paul and Fred posted:

This creates confusion because Stardock alone owns the Star Control universe. That doesn’t mean it owns any lore or stories created by others. It just means that Stardock has the right to determine what is canon in the Star Control universe.  

The Star Control aliens are associated with Star Control. That doesn’t mean Stardock can use expressions and stories of those aliens without permission. But it does mean Stardock has the right to create its own stories and expressions for the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc.

When Paul and Fred were contracted to develop Star Control I and Star Control II for Accolade, they were allowed to keep certain copyrights to the works they created. But all trademarks were explicitly defined as being owned by Accolade. 

Incidentally, their name was put into a diagram because they literally announced their game as a sequel to Star Control II.  They associated their new game with Star Control, not the other way around.

Q: Is Stardock trying to prevent Paul and Fred from making new games in their universe?

A: No.  Stardock wants them to create new games in the universe they created.  However, this needs to be handled in such a way that there is no confusion as to the relationship between Star Control and the works they licensed for Star Control II.

Q: If Stardock wants a new game from Paul and Fred, why did the settlement offer that Paul and Fred publicly posted that they claim came from Stardock demand that they "surrender" their IP?

A: It is regrettable that Paul and Fred chose to violate confidentiality and post, without context, a settlement offer.  Paul and Fred have been offered many settlement proposals with many different terms and are intended for negotiation by both parties to try to reach an amicable settlement.

Stardock paid over $300,000 for the Star acontrol IP which included the trademark and copyright to Star a Control 3. The Star Control brand is, in our view, far more valuable than any copyrighted material within a 25 year old DOS game. Source code and alien art. Nothing else, as far as we can discern, falls under copyright protection. You can’t copyright “lore” or timelines, or alien names, or game designs or UI.  

Thus, all we would gain would be the ability to have Ur-Quan that look just like the old Ur-Quan and space ships that look like the classic space ships. The greater value would be to make sure this kind of dispute didn’t happen again. But that value would still not overcome the damage they’ve caused in the market place due to the confusion on who owns Star Control and the ill will due to their PR company issuing false and misleading press releases and publicizing the dispute in a way to maximize ill will. Not to mention the considerable and rising legal costs.

None of this would prevent Paul and Fred from making a new game if that really is their desire. Stardock, in turn, would have been happy to license, free of charge, any IP they needed to make their new game.

Our respect for the work Paul and Fred did 25 years ago remains undiminished.  However, that respect does not give them the right to disrupt our product development at the 11th hour or misrepresent their new endeavors as the "true" sequel to our products.

Our dedication to bringing you a new Star Control game remains unchanged.  BETA 2 of Star Control: Origins is due in a few weeks.

For those interested in reading the details, our complete initial filing available online:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385277-Stardock-Legal-Complaint-2635-000-P-2017-12-08-1.html

Stardock 25th anniversary post documenting the creation of Star Control:

https://www.stardock.com/games/article/485810/star-control-ii-25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants  

 


Thank you for being fans of Star Control, and supporting our effort to make a great new game in the Star Control franchise.

And if you have questions that you’d like to see added to this post, feel free to reach out to me directly via Twitter at @kevinunangst

Kevin Unangst

Vice President, Marketing and Strategic Partnerships

Stardock Entertainment

1,790,254 views 728 replies
Reply #301 Top

Quoting Taslios, reply 300

Soooo...  when will any of the news from today's meeting be public? 

Don't hold your breath. There's a settlement detail gag order imposed by the court, so we're unlikely to learn anything unless it's all been fully settled and both parties agree to let us know everything. And neither of those two things are likely to be the case today, so I don't imagine we'll hear much other than maybe "there has been no agreement reached".

(just my 2c, I am not a lawyer, nor do I work for Stardock or have any special insight).

Reply #302 Top

Quoting Lakstoties, reply 276

Here's my position.  Stardock's stance upon how to interpret Trademark law is confusing on a few different levels.

Dude, just stop.

Stardock's position is based on their legal team who are, you know, lawyers. You're not a lawyer (I'm quite sure you would have mentioned that).

So if there's any confusion, it's you who is confused, and it's because you have no idea what you're talking about.

I have no idea what's going to happen in this case, and I am not a lawyer so unlike some people on this forum, I am not going to pretend that I understand the actual legalities. But Stardock have a large team of very good lawyers who do this shit all the time, while you are an armchair lawyer who loves quoting things he's googled. I'm going to trust what the actual lawyers are saying in this case, which is that Stardock have a good case and Paul and Fred do not.

We'll see, I guess.

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Reply #303 Top


Quoting Jafo, reply 287

No, what is [possibly] turning people away is the wealth of uninformed FUD associated with a legal case that is totally unconnected to the people posting the FUD.

I really don't think it's the FUD turning me away from Stardock, but feel free to correct me if my facts are wrong:

Stardock announced P&F were going to be working on a new game that continued the Ur-Quan plotline, and that it would include all the old races. At the time, P&F had no license from Stardock to use the Orz, nor had they been told that they would need to acquire such a license. Now Stardock is saying that P&F aren't allowed to continue the plotline, or call their aliens "Orz."

From those facts, I draw two reasons to be upset with Stardock:

1) Assuming Stardock wins, it seems incredibly unlikely that the original Ur-Quan plotline will get continued by it's original authors. That makes me sad, because that's the story I want to see. That is, of course, Stardock's right, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy with it.

2) Stardock went back on it's word. They said they wouldn't use the classic races, and that P&F were welcome to use those races, but now they're saying the opposite. I don't want to support a company that goes back on their word.

I think a lot of old-school fans are in a similar boat. I think any resolution that leads to GOTP being made by P&F and including the Orz, like Stardock originally announced it would, will leave most of us happy. 

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Reply #304 Top

Out of morbid curiosity… how do you understand the "StarControl™ © Accolade" on the title screen of the (terrible) 1991 Commodore 64 release of the first game? Paul and Fred had nothing to do with it, yet it includes representations of the original ships and races and Accolade seems to have been claiming copyright for themselves.

Was this use addressed in their contract at the time? Or did it fall under Accolade's rights?

Reply #305 Top

Quoting bleybourne, reply 302

Stardock's position is based on their legal team who are, you know, lawyers. You're not a lawyer (I'm quite sure you would have mentioned that).

And P&F's position is based on their legal team who are also lawyers. Why should I believe one side over the other? Constantly shouting "Stop being interested guys!" is even less productive than armchair lawyering. It's obviously possible for non-lawyers to learn to understand this stuff, or there would be no new lawyers.

Reply #306 Top

Quoting GMOrz, reply 303

1: Assuming Stardock wins, it seems incredibly unlikely that the original Ur-Quan plotline will get continued by it's original authors. That makes me sad, because that's the story I want to see. That is, of course, Stardock's right, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy with it.


2: Stardock went back on it's word. They said they wouldn't use the classic races, and that P&F were welcome to use those races, but now they're saying the opposite. I don't want to support a company that goes back on their word.

I think a lot of old-school fans are in a similar boat.

Well...


1: Stardock are also fans (which is why they bought the licence in the first place) and actually wanted PF to make a continuation of the storyline and were supportive and encouraging in them doing so. They even offered them the license at one point but they refused. Regardless they wanted PF to make their game and started talks with them to negotiate them not undercutting SC:Origins. To that end, they wanted them not to launch at the same time and were happy for PF to release under the name Urquan masters or buy the license to SC at cost.


2: Instead of agreeing to reasonable terms PF went nuclear and started DMCA's (which they will probably get fined for as their process for doing so was illegal) and effectively challenged the Star Control trademark forcing Stardock to respond with legal action to protect the license and their already in development game Star Control: Origins


The CEO knows this is upsetting to fans but PF kept upping the ante and pushed this into a legal dispute but Stardock is confident the result is going to grant them complete use of the Star Control property but unless PF back down it will also shut down their ability to do those things, not because Stardock wants it to, but the court ruling will have that impact regardless. So the Stardock CEO says if that happens they will use the aliens if future games so the fans don't lose out completely and maybe a bit out of bitterness to how PF tried to pull the rug out from under them despite their support.


As far as I understand it from reading what's been posted anyway. I'm sure if I got any of that wrong someone will correct me and then go off on some unrelated tangent.

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Reply #307 Top

Quoting OctateZero, reply 304

Out of morbid curiosity… how do you understand the "StarControl™ © Accolade" on the title screen of the (terrible) 1991 Commodore 64 release of the first game? Paul and Fred had nothing to do with it, yet it includes representations of the original ships and races and Accolade seems to have been claiming copyright for themselves.

Was this use addressed in their contract at the time? Or did it fall under Accolade's rights?

Probably the same position as StarControl 3. Copyright Accolade, some parts under license from Paul.

Reply #308 Top

Quoting Astrobia, reply 306

I'm sure if I got any of that wrong someone will correct me and then go off on some unrelated tangent.

No...that's about right.

As I said, it's FUD that is giving the wrong impression and thus 'turning people against Stardock'.

The FUD comes from people who simply DO NOT KNOW but are armchair lawyering anyway for questionable motive.

The people who DO KNOW simply cannot say because the Legal Process is still in....er....process....;)

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Reply #309 Top

Quoting Astrobia, reply 306
1: [Stardock] even offered them the license at one point but they refused. Regardless they wanted PF to make their game and started talks with them to negotiate them not undercutting SC:Origins. To that end, they wanted them not to launch at the same time and were happy for PF to release under the name Urquan masters or buy the license to SC at cost.


2: Instead of agreeing to reasonable terms PF went nuclear and started DMCA's (which they will probably get fined for as their process for doing so was illegal)

Alright, I am going to jump in on this one.  If people think I'm posting FUD, please give this an honest read, follow the links, see what's there, and really try to consider the evidence fairly, as though you were on a jury:

1)  P&F didn't bid on the trademark in the first place because they weren't in a position to immediately start using it.  Trademarks have to be used, or they become invalid.  If P&F had bought the trademark, they would have had to quit their jobs at Activision to start work on a new Star Control - which could have meant breaching their contracts - or else their $300k purchase would have become worthless before they ever had the chance to use it. 

2)  A DMCA notice is a legal pop gun, not a nuclear bomb.  They don't even involve a court.  Web hosting sites process millions of them every day.  It was just a sworn letter from P&F to the hosting site (Steam) saying that they owned the copyright to the original games and wanted them removed.  All Stardock had to do (and eventually did) to counter it was send their own sworn letter to tell Steam that they disputed the notice.  That's it - the games would then stay up, unless P&F went ahead and filed a lawsuit themselves to get them taken down.  Stardock instead decided to take it as a casus belli, and went on to file a full-on lawsuit of its own - which is a legal nuclear bomb.  Stardock may have had other reasons to decide to file the suit, but saying that the DMCA was 'nuclear', or that it forced them to sue is simply untrue.

And the suggestion that the DMCA would be illegal would only be correct if P&F had no copyright at all in the games.  But let's look at the boxes:

Star Control I:  "Game (C) 1990 Paul Reiche III & Fred Ford"

Star Control II:  "Game (C) 1992 Fred Ford and Paul Reiche III"

Star Control III:  "...based upon characters created and used under license from Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford"

It seems exceedingly unlikely that Accolade would have put those notices on the boxes if they didn't believe that Paul and Fred actually had the copyright to the games.  And when P&F open-sourced the game, their copyright notice was all over the source code.  If that's not enough, they've even posted their notebooks, where they started designing some of the races, screens, ships, and other elements.  Yes, it may turn out that there wasn't some legal paperwork done, such that, for example, Greg Johnson ended up owning the copyright to the Orz.  But Greg gave firsthand testimony on this forum that Fred and Paul were the primary people involved in creating SC2.

So we have clear evidence on the box that Accolade thought P&F owned the copyright.  We have their copyright notice in the source code.  We have contemporary physical evidence from the notebooks from when the games were created.  And we have firsthand testimony from someone who was there.

Seriously, how much proof do you need, folks?  What more proof could you reasonably ask for?

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Reply #310 Top

None of what you just posted has anything to do with trademark. It's just a long, elaborate, strawman, Elestan.

No one here has implied that Accolade owned all the copyrighted material within Star Control 1 or 2.  So what exactly is your point? 

Stardock contracts developers frequently. Fences, WindowBlinds, Groupy, IconPackager, etc. are all based on the same system. We contract a developer to make it. We own the trademark, they own the copyright. That doesn't magically let them make a new version utilizing our trademark.

Odds are you are right now looking at a monitor that was manufactured by a party and just had someone else's trademark slapped on it.  That doesn't give that OEM the ability to announce a sequel to that branded product.  This is IP 101 here.

Why Paul and Fred didn't bid on the trademark is irrelevant.  They didn't.  Stardock did.  Stardock owns the Star Control IP.  We  offered to transfer it to them at our cost.  They declined.  Why they declined doesn't matter. It doesn't let them leverage our IP to promote their new game.

Stardock isn't using any copyrighted IP (registered or common law) in the new Star Control games. So what exactly is your point about whoever claimed copyrights 25 years ago? 

That is why you get accused of FUD, Elestan.  You make it out like this is some sort of complicated issue.  It's not.  They used our trademark.  We're not using their copyrights.  

The bottom line is that they can't develop a game related to Star Control without our permission.  We have been willing to grant that permission from the start provided that that recognize our trademark rights.  We have no interest in their copyrights beyond them abusing them to harass us.  

It's worthwhile noting that PF advocates, such as yourself, are never willing to specify what copyrights they hold.  You just list things like a copyright being on the box. Okay, what is that for? The user manual? Maybe source code? I don't know.  Do you?  In either case, we don't care.  It has nothing to do with us.

 

Reply #311 Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 309

1)  P&F didn't bid on the trademark in the first place because they weren't in a position to immediately start using it.  Trademarks have to be used, or they become invalid.  If P&F had bought the trademark, they would have had to quit their jobs at Activision to start work on a new Star Control - which could have meant breaching their contracts - or else their $300k purchase would have become worthless before they ever had the chance to use it. 

They could have immediately made a new agreement with GoG to license both Trademark and Copyright. I think it's more likely they think/thought they just don't need it.

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Reply #312 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 310
None of what you just posted has anything to do with trademark.

Quite true.

It's just a long, elaborate, strawman, Elestan.

I beg to differ.  I was responding to Astrobia's point #2 where they talked about DMCA notices, which are entirely copyright-related.

Reply #313 Top

Quoting wibblenz, reply 311


Quoting Elestan,

1)  P&F didn't bid on the trademark in the first place because they weren't in a position to immediately start using it.  Trademarks have to be used, or they become invalid.  If P&F had bought the trademark, they would have had to quit their jobs at Activision to start work on a new Star Control - which could have meant breaching their contracts - or else their $300k purchase would have become worthless before they ever had the chance to use it. 



They could have immediately made a new agreement with GoG to license both Trademark and Copyright. I think it's more likely they think/thought they just don't need it.

That’s a really good point.

So to recap, Accordiing to PF’s version of events (corroborated by their emails with Atari) the classic games were put up on GOG where Atari provided the trademark and PF “the code”. If PF had acquired the trademark, they would have had it all and the classic games were being sold in commerce securing the trademark.

Instead, Stardock inherited it and thus the trademark with the classic games was used by Stardock instead in commerce (by mutual agreement, no dispute).

 

Reply #314 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 310

The bottom line is that they can't develop a game related to Star Control without our permission. 

You've yet to explain how Trademark law makes this so.  This is more or less my only disagreement. 

Quoting Frogboy, reply 310

It's worthwhile noting that PF advocates, such as yourself, are never willing to specify what copyrights they hold.

I have no strong feelings on the copyright other than that Paul clearly owns...something, and that Stardock's continued insistence that it can make something similar but not substantially similar would look very suspicious if I were a juror (no chance of that). 

Reply #315 Top

Quoting wibblenz, reply 314


Quoting Frogboy,

The bottom line is that they can't develop a game related to Star Control without our permission. 



You've yet to explain how Trademark law makes this so.  This is more or less my only disagreement. 


Quoting Frogboy,

It's worthwhile noting that PF advocates, such as yourself, are never willing to specify what copyrights they hold.



I have no strong feelings on the copyright other than that Paul clearly owns...something, and that Stardock's continued insistence that it can make something similar but not substantially similar would look very suspicious if I were a juror (no chance of that). 

 

Well, to the first, that is the definition of trademark. If I can show a likelihood of confusion, I have a case. If someone saw a game with the Ur-Quan, Spathi, Orz is there a likelihood that they would think that game was associated with Star Control?

To the second, you say he clearly owns...”something”. What cooyrightable thing does he own? One example of something in the game would suffice, it’s academic because we aren’t using any copyrightable material at all. But still, name it.

Substantially similar is the legal definition. Period. It either is or isn’t. 

Here is a concept for an alien in Star Control:Origins.  Do you want to suggest it violates someone’s Copyright?  Whose?

What about this?

 

Reply #316 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 315
Substantially similar is the legal definition. Period. It either is or isn’t.

That makes it sound like it's an easy black & white question of fact.  But my understanding is that it's up to the jury to decide, which means it's really a totally subjective crapshoot.

If I were to look only at the art, I wouldn't say that it violates any copyright - it's a generic "Gray"-derived alien race.  But if they were in a video game where they live in Quasispace, pilot teleporting flying saucers with auto-aiming lasers, and call themselves the 'Arilou', all of those things taken together would put them in "substantially similar" territory for me, were I on that jury.

Reply #317 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 315

Well, to the first, that is the definition of trademark. If I can show a likelihood of confusion, I have a case. If someone saw a game with the Ur-Quan, Spathi, Orz is there a likelihood that they would think that game was associated with Star Control?

Confusion depends on use (in commerce) of a mark on (not in) the goods (computer games) being confused with your mark (the words "STAR CONTROL"), by my reading of the act itself and several explanatory articles. I don't agree with your reasoning. If I see a game with Ur-Quan, Spathi and Orz, I cannot know if its source is Stardock or The UQM project without looking at the 'packaging' so to speak. Much as I cannot tell bottled water apart without packaging.

Quoting Frogboy, reply 315

To the second, you say he clearly owns...”something”. What cooyrightable thing does he own? One example of something in the game would suffice, it’s academic because we aren’t using any copyrightable material at all. But still, name it.

On information and belief, The image of Fwiffo. Which as you say, is rather irrelevant. If you meant in SC:O I have no idea. I lack knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief about most of the copyright, and as such don't find it interesting to discuss.

Reply #318 Top

Quoting Elestan, reply 309
1)  P&F didn't bid on the trademark in the first place because they weren't in a position to immediately start using it.

I agree with Frogboy's reply to this. It doesn't matter if they were tied up to Activision at the time. The circumstances just didn't favor them. Bottom line, Stardock has the mark, not P&F.

2)  A DMCA notice is a legal pop gun, not a nuclear bomb.  They don't even involve a court.  Web hosting sites process millions of them every day.  It was just a sworn letter from P&F to the hosting site (GoG) saying that they owned the copyright to the original games and wanted them removed.

Wasn't it the sale on Steam that got DMCA'd because P&F didn't give Stardock permission to do so? (They gave permission to GoG together with Atari to continue selling the games.)

Of course we all know why Stardock refused to pull down the games from Steam because they believe the 1988 agreement is still active. Whether it is or not will be determined by the courts.

Reply #319 Top

Quoting tingkagol, reply 318
Wasn't it the sale on Steam that got DMCA'd because P&F didn't give Stardock permission to do so? (They gave permission to GoG together with Atari to continue selling the games.)

Good catch; fixed, thanks.

Reply #320 Top

Let's educate everyone about trademarks as defined by the United States Patent and Trademark Office...  with material from their own website:  https://www.uspto.gov/

All from the USPTO's website:  https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks-getting-started/trademark-basics

What is a trademark?  From the Basic Facts Booklet ( https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/BasicFacts.pdf ) page 2:  "A trademark is generally a word, phrase, symbol, or design, or a combination thereof, that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others."

From the same booklet "Do trademarks, copyrights, and patents protect the same things?": "No. Trademarks, copyrights, and patents protect different types of intellectual property. A trademark typically protects brand names and logos used on goods and services. A copyright protects an original artistic or literary work. A patent protects an invention. For example, if you invent a new kind of vacuum cleaner, you would apply for a patent to protect the invention itself. You would apply to register a trademark to protect the brand name of the vacuum cleaner. And you might register a copyright for the TV commercial that you use to market the product."

And here's some nice videos that explain it all further...  All from the United States Patent and Trademark Office.

The big overview presentation, "Basic Facts About Trademarks: What Every Small Business Should Know":  https://youtu.be/qHDRV2NTSEk

Differences between all IP components,  "Basic Facts: Trademarks, Patents, and Copyrights": https://youtu.be/4cIBcl7dD4w

Selecting a Mark, and further explanation of what a mark is and how they can conflict:  "Basic Facts: Selecting A Mark": https://youtu.be/z4jmtzR4_NU

And to explain the registration process, "Basic Facts: Should I Register My Mark?": https://youtu.be/6qzZL2yfUgI

 

So...  With all this material from the organization responsible for regulating Trademarks and Patents, I can't find where Stardock structures its interpretation of trademark law in the manner it has portrayed.  That is why people question Stardock.

Reply #321 Top

Quoting Lakstoties, reply 320

So...  With all this material from the organization responsible for regulating Trademarks and Patents, I can't find where Stardock structures its interpretation of trademark law in the manner it has portrayed.  That is why people question Stardock.

You can’t figure out, from the above,  why someone can’t literally use someone else’s trademark when announcing their game while also claiming it is the sequel to that mark? 

Reply #322 Top

To add to that, then (and I do believe, from my understanding of the law, that Stardock's position is valid)...
https://www.uspto.gov/page/about-trademark-infringement

Specifically:
"Generally, the court will consider evidence addressing various factors to determine whether there is a likelihood of confusion among consumers. The key factors considered in most cases are the degree of similarity between the marks at issue and whether the parties' goods and/or services are sufficiently related that consumers are likely to assume (mistakenly) that they come from a common source. Other factors that courts typically consider include how and where the parties' goods or services are advertised, marketed, and sold; the purchasing conditions; the range of prospective purchasers of the goods or services; whether there is any evidence of actual confusion caused by the allegedly infringing mark; the defendant's intent in adopting its mark; and the strength of the plaintiff's mark.

The particular factors considered in a likelihood-of-confusion determination, as well as the weighing of those factors, vary from case to case. And the amount and quality of the evidence involved can have a significant impact on the outcome of an infringement lawsuit.

In addition to claiming likelihood of confusion, a trademark owner may claim trademark "dilution," asserting that it owns a famous mark and the use of your mark diminishes the strength or value of the trademark owner's mark by "blurring" the mark's distinctiveness or "tarnishing" the mark's image by connecting it to something distasteful or objectionable-even if there is no likelihood of confusion."

I'm wondering if people's assumptions about "marks" is the biggest part of the issue. It started as solely a name/logo and is heavily focused around that, but isn't actually limited to that either, e.g.:
https://www.uspto.gov/learning-and-resources/trademark-faqs#type-trademark-electronic-application-system-teas-non-traditional-marks

And from:
https://www.uspto.gov/learning-and-resources/trademark-faqs#1928

"Trademarks protect words, names, symbols, sounds, or colors that distinguish goods and services from those manufactured or sold by others and indicate the source of the goods. Trademarks, unlike patents, can be renewed forever as long as they are being used in commerce."

That's why the example of Klingons, etc, applies. Because the public associations are part of what creates a full trademark. The Klingons (which have a language of distinguishable words, are a specific name, are a symbol in how they appear, have distinct sounds, etc,) are associated and used with the Star Trek name/trademark. You directly associate "Klingon" and what that concept entails, with "Star Trek".

So, if someone else uses the Klingons and it's in a similar enough way to make someone believe it may be associated with, or produced by the same origin that produces the "real" "Star Trek Klingons", that creates confusion and so becomes a trademark issue.

*Edit* In addition to Brad's point about how they just straight up used the actual name.

IANAL, but I do have some experience and training, caveats, etc.

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Reply #323 Top

Anyway, to follow up my other post, this is supposed to be a Q & A thread not, Internet Lawyer proving grounds.

There is a venue where these kinds of disputes get resolved and it’s not Internet forums.

I wish none of these disagreements had become public. I suspect PF now wish the same. It makes it much much harder to resolve disputes when you have to factor in damage to good will.

Stardock isn’t looking to block their game. We just can’t have games, using our mark or creating confusion with their activities.  All such issues can be resolved through licensing of our marks as we know the fans want PF to make their game too just like they want ours. Two Star Control games would be better than just one. But there can’t be a mistake as to the owner of Star Control.

Having spent many, many hours talking to IP lawyers on these issues, I’m more inclined to take their advice than “some guy” on the Internet who has no legal background, has no access to the thousands of pages of discovery we possess nor has every been in through litigation. 

This is a dispute that will likely go on for years. So just sit back, relax, there’s a lot less personal animosity between PF and us than I’ve seen between some fans. So chill out and play games.

I plan to take that advice myself. We will be focusing on finishing Star Control and we hope you guys like the results. :)

 

Reply #324 Top

Quoting Astrobia, reply 306


2: Instead of agreeing to reasonable terms PF went nuclear and started DMCA's (which they will probably get fined for as their process for doing so was illegal) and effectively challenged the Star Control trademark forcing Stardock to respond with legal action to protect the license and their already in development game Star Control: Origins

The DMCA is not "nuclear" - it's a very common legal procedure. When P&F had an issue with GOG selling the games, they contacted GOG, not Atari. When P&F had an issue with Steam, they contacted Steam, not Stardock. I'm not sure why GOG lead to "let's talk this out" and Steam lead to a DMCA takedown, but that could be as simple as "Steam doesn't have nearly the customer service / support resources of GOG."

which they will probably get fined for as their process for doing so was illegal

Everyone complains when Elestan spins his wild legal theories, but here we have a flat assertion of fact. Is there even any legal action pending against them for making false DMCA claims? I'm pretty certain there's not enough public evidence to conclude that they're decisive not the authors, which would be required to conclude that such a notice was illegal.

PF kept upping the ante and pushed this into a legal dispute

P&F upped the Ante to "DMCA takedown". Stardock upped the ante to "lawsuit." While the DMCA is technically a "legal dispute", it's one that comes up pretty regularly. A lawsuit is definitely a significant escalation from there.

unless PF back down it will also shut down their ability to do those things, not because Stardock wants it to, but the court ruling will have that impact regardless

If Stardock refuses to give them permission, sure. The court isn't going to stop Stardock from giving P&F that permission, though.

So the Stardock CEO says if that happens they will use the aliens if future games so the fans don't lose out completely

Again, Stardock could also give permission to P&F to use those races. Until October 2017, there were no objections to P&F using these aliens.

Reply #325 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 323


Stardock isn’t looking to block their game. We just can’t have games, using our mark or creating confusion with their activities.  All such issues can be resolved through licensing of our marks
 

Stardock was perfectly okay with them using all of the original races even in response to the initial public announcement of GOTP. P&F have already stopped using the Star Control mark. What else remains for P&F to do? What changed that it would be "creating confusion" for them to use the Orz or continue the Ur-Quan plot line now, but not a year ago?