You are WRONG.

Wail does normal damage and as such is mitigated by shields and mitigated by armor - should the shields have been depleted.

There are only two things in this game which are not affected by shield mitigation. Nano Disassembler on the Evacuator and Phase Missiles.

I walked right into that one, didn't I?

What do you mean by "early"?  Cause in my mind this wasn't truly early game, more like mid-game (though I don't know exactly when he researched wail, only when he used it first)...as I stated, he had choke point (which had SB) and so while my frontliner may have had larger fleet, it wouldn't have been big enough to fight a fleet plus defenses...

Let's now look at your scenario one....I really really wish I had a picture of the map, but "flanking elsewhere" just would not have worked...my frontliner would have had to go through wail range no matter what in order to get to any of his opponents planets...trying to hit the wail world would have been very rough because of defenses....he could try to bomb population but then his caps would be too committed to center of planet and the enemy could just retreat his fleet and quickly kill the caps with fleet+defenses...and remember, there's SB, so there is huge loss for jumping away from it (HP and AM)...

As you've already assumed, attacking other planets would have been a nightmare because of wail...but it is by no means a "disadvantage" to have to wail a fleet...you really only need to wail one planet in order to wipe a fleet, it's not like he'd have to wail multiple planets...even if he didn't use wail (just had it to force you to split your fleet up), you now are multiple jumps away from any factory world...your fleet is split up because of wail, while your opponent can focus his entire forces (which are close to factories, btw)...doing what you have suggested would be absolute suicide without a titan and a cap or two for quick bombardment...

As for scenario 2...this isn't first 10 minutes of game, this is early mid game to mid game, fleets can easily wipe low SBs and caps...to give perspective on the fleets these guys had, both had 40-60 illuminators plus other ships...a low level SB is going down ASAP, and remember that my fronliner couldn't use fleet to protect his SBs (which would then just get raped by bomber spam) so even high level SBs wouldn't have stopped much....trust me, at that stage you can't just throw some capital ships at a planet and expect them to walk out unscathed against that kind of fleet....even if you kill population, you are sacrificing caps...if you trickle forces in to support caps, you are at severe fleet disadvantage and your ships are going to just get picked off...eventually you'll just have to retreat with heavy lossses and really you will have accomplished nothing...

I build hangars with shield bestowal...I do this all the time when I'm Advent....and I know I"m not alone....

I read everything you wrote, but now we are just going in circles...I've already explained what I think wail should be like conceptually and why I think it is better than what we have now...I've reiterated time and time again that I will never support a version of wail that can kill enemy fleets defending their own planets...I've argued how making wail only affect one planet means it is excellent defense mid game but can be countered late game by kosturas and novas no problem (FYI, 3 minutes of kostura disablement is easily long enough to bomber spam the crap out of a pansy culture center, even if it has shields)...I've expressed my feelings how I want wail to be very powerful, I want it to have lab requirement (which btw is another area where the kostura shines since it disables labs), and I don't want overlapping wail or wailing on planets that aren't even yours...obviously you and greg and player slayer disagree, and all I"m seeing is theorycraft arguments on paper that are getting no where...

I'm currently working on a major personal mod and I know one of the changes I'll make is having wail only affect the home planet...after I play some games with my friends and this change, I'll let you know from first hand experience whether it actually is a good change or not...

Lol...I love how you are criticizing my play style without ever actually seeing me play...one of the games Greg is referring too, he was suicide between me and player slayer...and you are going to give me shit for rushing him with corvettes and LFs????? WTF???  Maybe I should have been like KoK and just rushed kodiaks...that would have been real effective...

The other game Greg is referring too, I was eco...but you're right, I probaby should have gotten like 5 or 6 military labs instead of spamming trade ports so I could feed my allies....

FYI, dem bots and timed explosives also do only hull damage...there may be others I haven't thought of...

One of the major implications of shield mitigation on wail is that it makes multiple wails (2 100 pop planets) not as effective as one big wail (1 200 pop planet)...

Wail does totally normal damage. The only thing is when its used, ships aren't usually in combat, so their mitigation is at the default 15%. But what mitigation they have and armor will work just like combat damage does.

Okay, so here's my Wail solution.  Instead of the current effect, a Wail serves to block enemy phase jumping to both the target planet and to adjacent planets in friendly culture.  Enemy ships cannot phase jump to affected planets, and those in phase space are frozen in place until the duration ends.  The duration is 2 seconds per population point lost (so 50 population = 100 second delay, 150 pop = 5 minute delay, etc.).

To me, it seems like the solution still gives AR an answer to invading Vasari, or to other hostiles attacking when their main fleet is away - but they still have to have a fleet to deal with the threat when the duration expires.  See any problems, or is this really an ideal change?

The biggest problem I see with this is that it just encourages Vasari to spam Kostura more against advent players because it will disable the culture centers anyway. 

Guess you could still wail an adjacent asteroid to buy time to wail the major planet once the Kostura disable wears off.  Anyway, it seems like making the Kostura more expensive and/or harder to build might be the answer to that kind of problem, since it sounds like basically all non-Vasari struggle against the Vasari lategame.

 Yeah that's true, I spose. And idk bout nerfing the Kostura, I don't think I've got the experience yet to speak on such a matter

I doubt the devs will do a rework that major, and I'm unsure how useful it would really be in practice. The Kostura is a good superweapon but I don't think it has a balance problem.

Just don't let advent players tech up, allowing them to do so makes it very hard for yourself late game as their fleets are very much about late game synergy.

First of all, this is not possible in many cases. If he is in the eco spot, you simple cant reasonable attack any player.

Yes, in late game Advent are superior to TEC fleets.... but they tend to have far fewer ships.

Against Vasari.... Advent simple die in late game.

Has everyone fallen victim to a colossal troll thread or what? 

Well, I think everyone realized that a request to ban the AR was a troll....discussion devolved into something slightly more serious...slightly....

Time to reinvigorate this debate.

At the very least, require the player to actually own 7 civic labs, not merely to have researched the ability.  That way one additional counter would be to kill the civic labs.   Also, ships at the planet that wails (friendly ships or the player's own ships) should also be subject to it.  Structures at the wailing planet should also be lost.

Dirty i can only conclude that since the last post before you was on september 12th then you posting on the 16th of december means you just got wailed and you have come to wail on in the forums. 

Since I haven't been Wailed on recently, I can only conclude that you are too quick to jump to unwarranted conclusions.

Wail actually got a serious nerf in a recent patch..... it does now damage own and allied units too.

If you still get wailed....

YOU DESERVE TO DIE.

ANY FURTHER NERF TO WAIL WILL MAKE IT ENTIRELY USELESS!

I don't agree that Advent Rebels need to be banned at this point, but I do very much agree with this. Almost every other research unlocked ability in the game requires labs to be maintained, why not this one?

Ownership will be included in the next update (whenever that is). For now, this thread has run it's course. Things are getting a bit rowdy.