Greg once said Time is the 4th resource in sins. Being able to suddenly get vast amount of resources as vas via sttc and then follow it up by fleet + kostura can be far more devastating than getting eco. Especially if you're able to wipe out a new player quickly on the front first with sb rush and then tech sttc after.

Greg, I did quick test on frigate factory. detonate didn't work

What really bothers me regarding threads like that is that whenever a race that needs a bit of help to be competitive compared to others vasari and gets strong option that actually makes vasari players have to think and not just carrier and sb spamm it gets called bloody murder.

This is out of order it shouldn't belong in the game it is OP while in other threads that regard vasari and their very strong abilities they defend it with all the zeal they can muster. 

Yes you didn't strip all that much pre 1.4. But then you didn't play all that much either. And what you did play you were testing other races as well so you didn't have option to strip all that much. 

Agreed 100% with Greg. And for the record, we play as all races meaning we have less biased perspective on balance. Take it or leave it.

heres another potential counter to wail. timed explosives.

I Proposed an idea yesterday to the lobby, which seem to get apporval. How about Wail be used to destroy all fleet in the gravity well, including yours, the enemy fleet and any ally fleet within the gravity well. This would make it a last stand soultion.

@ black, I wouldn't have a problem restricting it to 1 well, but I'm not sure if it should affect allies/your own ships.

one change I would make to wail is to make it research lab dependent.

edit: come to think of it, Its better for it to affect adjacent wells, otherwise it may truely become potentially impossible to counter. There would be fewer ways to viably destroy the culture centre. If anything this would buff wail

No. Only infidels should die for spamming jumping orkies and novalith cannons. 

Lol....well played, slayer, well played...that may be the best rhetoric I've seen in a very long time....

SBs have antimatter pools, and thus can be targeted by detonate antimatter even if that pool is 0/0....this is because certain SB upgrades could increase the AM and therefore the SB is always targetable by detonate antimatter...structures with no AM pool (like culture centers) cannot be targetted by detonate AM while structures with AM pools (hangars) can...

Subverters will disable the abilities of structures, just like they disable the use of abilities by frigates...

If you don't believe me, do it in the dev.exe...detonate AM can't target the culture center....

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've played a lot of TR and AL in addtion to my typical AR play...I love Advent, I more than most (RiddleKing and Sareth have me beat) want Advent to be powerful...I just don't like the current implementation of wail, I simply don't...I point blank think it is wrongheaded that wail can prevent you from keeping your own fleet at your own damn planet, it is the same reason why I advocated the kostura nerf back in diplomacy...

I am not a vasari whore, and I do not want wail nerfed to obvlivion...I've advocated having wail affect only the home gravity well as opposed to neighboring gravity wells, which is still a very powerful ability...I've also said multiple times that the biggest reasons wail is acceptable is because 1) Vasari toys are so much more OP (and I've advocated nerfs to some of them) and 2) AR have nothing else...this is not some campaign of mine to see advent nerfed back to the stone age...

You would never have to fear overlapping wail, and you would never have to worry about your own gravity wells being threatened...if you add in the fact that wail should probably require 7 labs to actually use (not just research), then wail would be much easier to counter simply because you could pick off labs at other planets (not perfect but better than what we have now)...you also wouldn't need multiple superweapons to counter wail like you may need now (mainly due to overlapping)....high pop terran would be exception, they still would require 2 nova shots...

How many games does it take for you to see even 1 effective wail? That's testimony to how 'op' it is. As for the counters, well..they're all over this thread now.

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/2 to 2/3 of all games I've played...far more frequent than a VL titan getting to lvl 6 (I can count on one hand how many times I've actually seen it)....

Of course, I doubt you will believe me (that you even asked the question implies you personally don't see it very much) but I can honestly say I see it a lot...of course, it depends on your definition of "effective"...

Timed explosives....lol....what's next, martyrdom?

Well..I don't know what games you play in (AI?) but I see VL sttc abuse far more often than wail.

btw, if wail could only work from hws, then we'd hardly ever see it used.

Lol...no I don't play AI...and I also never said anything about the frequency of SttC...I shall defer to my original statement:

Anyway...

Home planet is in reference to the planet that the culture center is at (as opposed to the neighboring planets)...apparently blackhawk has made a similar suggestion with the twist that it affects friendly forces as well....

VL lvl 6 titan is not really something I see often either. Not sure why you're obsessed with it. On the other hand sttc more often than not plays bigger factor than wail in skilled games online.

If wail only affected the same grav well culture centre was in, I don't think it would be too different to how wail is now, aside from being able to safely jump to adjacent grav wells. You'd still be faced with problem of having to take out the culture centre b4 jumping in with main fleet.

I don't see that as a problem, that's what makes wail powerful and useful....

This is what bothers me about the current implementation of wail, that you cannot defend your own planets when they neighbor AR worlds...I don't mind wail being tricky to counter if it only protects the AR planets...but when it can mess with my fleet on my own planet, then I have a problem with it being tricky to counter....

OK lets say wail effect gravity well that it is cast from.....

I ask myself what Is the whole point of attacking a planet?

Destroy it obviously. So warp in few carriers and ff on temple. If he uses vail congratulations you just reached your goal to destroy a planet. If not temple will be destroyed therefore no vail and you can warp in reinforcements. 

Vail used on gravity well that it is cast on in my opinion negates whole point of its purpose which to my eyes is last resort for already loosing player.

Agreed with the above.

There is a possibility Wail might be changed to affect friendly as well as hostile forces though.  That could have a big impact.

Oh gods the troll potential 

Honestly I kind of like the idea though, perhaps coupled with a bit of a buff to Return of the Fallen, could create a really interesting Dynamic, wherein casting Wail will hit friendlies too, but the Advent Rebels are better prepared to deal with the losses as many of their losses respawn.  Might be best in that case though to removed buildings from the targetting filter as wail is more likely to hit more fiendly wells then enemy ones.

While I agree with most of your posts, I think if you view wail this way in my experience it certainly isn't very good. Wail has never saved me from losing. What it tends to do better is pin your opponent in, delaying him substantially while he either tries a different point of attack to outmaneuver you, or he builds something to deal with wail like a super weapon or titan.

This is the only real issue with Wail as it completely screws a turtler trying to defend a choke point or last stand that happens to butt up against an advent rebel with a high population planet. As a short term defensive shield it's good but not the end all be all.

I agree with many here though it's situationally great and lucky to use at best. It's main thrust has been against VL players that charge into AR planets without thinking (been there, done that both ways). Even still they are mostly left with their capitals and heavy units and still equiped to eat your planets if your a few jumps away.

What I do find marginally funny is Kostura's used to only lock down ships for a short duration and this was found OP. Now we can jump in a Titan and insta-level it by wailing their frigate fleet. Then AOE the hell out of any other frigate fleet with the Titan. But don't forget RB got a big buff too so TEC wasn't left out in the insta-kill camp. Only AL was left with any real threat except if you think culture works as an offensive weapon. Vasari may not have the insta-kill going right away but add in stripping, PJ star bases to their already better techs then who cares, plus you'll eventually get maw as VL which is the worst in terms of balance in the game currently.

I'm not really a fan of the OP capabilities in rebellion personally as they cheese the late game up a bit. That said, Ironclad seems attached to this design and hopefully they get decide how to balance it out which has occured with previous versions (uncapped malice, missile barrage, etc).

I know some hold the opinion that OP super abilities, weapons and titans are good for the game. They may be right and if so we should unroll some of the nerfs from prior expansions and balance things out that way.

As long as wail doesn't affect the planet it's in which it won't then this will have almost zero impact.

Why? As the wailer you know it's coming and can position your forces to avoid it by being in the right well up front (time is on your side). As the wailee you have no idea when or if it's coming. Wail only requires positioning your forces now in the correct spot and monitoring for the opportune time to wail. i.e. nothing has changed other than they will lose construction frigates and maybe some shields on their structures. You'll also still be able to jump in capitals or Titans to take advantage of the experience gained as Wail doesn't rightly kill these units.

This.

The point is that the best counter to Wail is GOOD STRATEGY.

Stupid people who walk into it should not complain.

It is not OP.

Neither is The Maw, really. Its the VL Titan's only offensive ability. Other Titans can destroy entire fleets with their guns alone.

Shield bestowal + repair bays actually makes it a little trickier than simply jumping in a few carriers...easier than wiping out an SB with RB, but wail is also more powerful...shield bestowal inherently implies at least some fighters, so you'd need a moderate amount of bombers to get the job done in any reasonable amount of time...still going to require time though which means the AR have time to react and get their fleet there...if there's no fleet to defend, I think caps and titans are the better way to go, and that's not much different than RB....

In essence, it forces the same dynamics as RB does but with more of a twist: with no defending fleet wail is easier to counter, but with defending fleet it is more of a threat than RB...

I refuse to believe that seleuceia is the only person here not trolling or just plain ol fukin dumb

(or maybe most people here play single player only, in which case fuck off)

I completely agree with sel, having wail affect home planet only would make it formidable and an

awesome faction specific ability without destroying the intended dynamic of competitive MP.

Is common sense really that few and far between these days?

Seleuceia, I come hither to join against this seemingly indestrutible troll menace. TO WAR!

Let me rephrase or extend my statement a bit. 

Vail used on gravity well that it is cast on in my opinion negates whole point of its purpose which to my eyes is last resort for already loosing player.

to

Vail IMO is used as a last resort for already loosing player and as deterrent against player that is ready to attack when you are still building forces. It saves your ass from loosing, and lets you either catch up military.

IMO as in game dynamics it works like red button with few setbacks and benefits compared to it. You cannot choose where you going to build it - map dependant to where high population planets are and phase lanes attached to them, you cannot rush it as if you are on front line (not talking about feed), and it has long arming time to actually have any effect and it is population dependant. If you going to use it you do have to scout those wells constantly. 

In terms of benefits compared to RB it effects multiple and whole adjacent gravity wells and you cannot see it coming. Again how many gravity wells it effects depends on phase lanes attached to planet so it is situational.

The YOU CANNOT SEE IT COMING is actually only thing I would change about wail. There should be some effect and delay similar to RB so you could potentially save your ass .....