Delusional beliefs and their harm to humanity

from JoeUser Forums

To classify a belief as delusional, it must meet the following requirements:

  1. It cannot be based on our physical reality in any way because it must be miraculous, beyond human ken. 
  2. There can be no real world evidence for its existence because some might eventually think to look for it.
  3. Nothing else matters.

Faith is unreliable, harmful and so unnecessary.  If one has evidence, there is no need of faith because you have the evidence. But those who only have faith do not have any evidence and don’t require any, nor will they accept any. Based on the scriptures of our monotheistic religions, they all have their own ‘Last Prophet’, the last human being to converse with their particular god in the real world … the same god mind you. Christians believe Jesus was the last prophet. In Islam, Muhammad was the last prophet. In Jainism, Mahavira is also claimed to be the last prophet. Mani, founder of the Persian faith Manichaeism claimed to be the last prophet. In Mandaeanism, John the Baptist is considered the last prophet. I wonder where Joseph Smith stands here having been born ~307 years ago???

Miracles Modern style: Catholics claim that a communion wafer is transformed by blessing it, into the literal physical flesh of Christ which they then feel compelled to eat every Sunday. Pentecostals believe that speaking in tongues is something besides one Christian pretending to understand the other. Christian ‘scientists’ believe in faith healing by ‘the laying on of hands’ or ‘the bowling of people’ to spirit away whatever ails them. Latter-Day Saints believe that Joseph Smith was gods’ last prophet which if true alone would prove all the other religions false. Whose delusions do you want to believe and why can’t you believe the others? Most religious folk believe in intercessory prayer but it only seems to work in the successful cases which just happen to coincide with the medical prognosis. Well even I as a free thinker believe in homeopathic miracles, hahaha. Don’t even want to discuss exorcisms, not going there because I can only take so much BS.

Then there are those with confirmation bias where they only read literature from people who already agree with them or like with the bible, they skip the distasteful parts. The only thing they seem to know about the outside world is what they read in their hate mail … which is quite obvious by the way. Let’s not forget the conviction card that goes like this: I believe something to be true because I believe it to be the word of god. Conviction is just a measure of how much you believe in something (doesn’t matter why) and doesn’t have anything to do with reality or the truth … you believe … so what I say … I believe in things too but mine are real and provable???

It is amazing to me when I think of all the holy books there are around the world … all of which is considered to be the inerrant  word of one god or another (don’t ask me?). Even more amazing (is that possible?) is that the god of our modern monotheistic religions is the same one … and he left us with different instructions almost as if it were a test or something. Simply stated they all cannot be true (they can’t), then what evidence do we have to help us make a choice if one is inclined? Well we don’t have any evidence, but we have figured out the only way this anomaly can happen in the real world. We began to see a pattern and as it turns out, wherever you were born and who raised you are the only determining factors and in most cases it is a lifelong belief.  The only people around the world who murder other people they do not even know due to a difference of opinion over a fictional character ... are believers of god, in one guise or another. It doesn't take faith to say you don't know something; it just takes a little humility and nothing more.  Just doesn’t make any sense to me?

 

ethics
30,763 views 104 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top

To call oneself a Christian today doesn’t tell anyone much besides maybe that they are believers in Crist. Beyond that the sky is the limit. There are a thousand different ‘sects’ of Christianity alone and the bible is used exclusively by all of them to justify their peculiar flavor of Christianity. How does the Christian (ANY) sale pitch start? All you have to do is believe in Jesus as your god and have faith in him, always. What none of them do up front is explain what ‘always’ means as nothing is up front or out in the open with religious dealings. As it turns out, ‘always’ means exactly that, ALWAYS. You have to accept without question that the errant bible is the inerrant word of god??? You have to accept that magic is rampart throughout the world and always has been??? You have to accept that humanity has no ability to think for themselves or the ability to improve the human condition by their own means, without celestial guidance at every turn. And somehow we are supposed to admit everything we know about the universe is just an atheist lie promoted by Satan. You also have to understand that you yourself are inadequate and unable to comprehend or understand the word of god without guidance and direction from your betters. The list goes on but I made my point. All you have to do is have faith in god right, and I have a bridge for sale.

Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top

Where do you get your information on Christianity?

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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting Jythier, reply 2
Where do you get your information on Christianity?
The bible ... where do you get yours???

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top

I guess I must have glossed over those parts.

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top

That was a joke by the way.  You make stuff up about the Bible all the time.

Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting Jythier, reply 5
That was a joke by the way. You make stuff up about the Bible all the time.
Name ONE instance ... and don't give me this shit about being tired or not ... how could you possibly know yourself unless god sat you down and actually told you the facts of life, as opposed to your reading someone else's thoughts on the matter, which is all you have, a silly un-authored book. The bible doesn't need me to rip it a new arse, the barbarians in the first century did all that was necessary ... I am just capitalizing on their complete ignorance of everything real or natural in the ‘round’ world. It wasn't their fault because the just didn't know how anything appreciable actually worked. But you have no excuse, not in the modern world and you should know better. Not to worry though because I have learned (via evolutionary processes) to take just about everything you say now as a joke, if only because your everything is completely based on a work of fiction, how could that not be comical ... ok, maybe sad too.

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

Normally this is the part where I would say, the very fact that we are arguing using logic, which is a concept that evolution cannot account for, is proof there is something more than evolution behind us being here, at the least.

However, that would require us to be arguing logically, instead of you calling me ignorant and the writers of the Bible ignorant.  See, the writers of the Bible didn't write it to explain evolution or creation.  They wrote it to explain God.  The Bible is God's letter to us.  He DID sit us down and tell us about him.

Now, beyond that, he built into creation the key that he exists, which is that as we discover more deeply what a cell is, how it works, and how we are atomically put together, etc, we merely continue to find that we are more and more complex than we ever imagined.  That life has such complexities in it that we can't even see with the naked eye, that it had to be designed by someone - not just stuck here. 

This is where you say I'm brainwashed and stupid and don't understand you.  Can we just skip that part and have you actually, in a nice way, answer these points?

Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

There is no nice way for me to answer this stuff. CONSIDER THIS FOR ONCE: I do not believe in any god – I do not believe the bible is anything but barbarian fantasies – I am an atheist – I believe in evolution. Where is my wiggle room to appease a creationist who: Believes everything I believe is null and void – that the bible is the word (letter???) from just your god – that is an avid religious person – who believes the world to be 5,007 years old – one who believes in creation. The reason we cannot communicate is because you are a creationist and that tells me quite a bit about you.

Quoting Jythier, reply 7
Normally this is the part where I would say, the very fact that we are arguing using logic, which is a concept that evolution cannot account for, is proof there is something more than evolution behind us being here, at the least.
We are in no way using logic here. How in the world are you a creationist supposed to know what evolution may or may not produce when all you read is what others thumpers say it cannot do. Not only do you not believe in evolution, you allow 6,000 years for me to work with … but there’s more, take my word for it. Even my dog uses logic to get the treats I make more difficult for him to get. There is plenty of information available to those with a fully functioning computer describing animal logic and their amazing abilities, but I suppose I am supposed to go fetch them for you, huh. Is there a question in here??? It is not my job to teach evolution to you and seemingly it isn’t your job to just look at it. Is there any wonder why our logic is incompatible???
Quoting Jythier, reply 7
However, that would require us to be arguing logically, instead of you calling me ignorant and the writers of the Bible ignorant. See, the writers of the Bible didn't write it to explain evolution or creation. They wrote it to explain God. The Bible is God's letter to us. He DID sit us down and tell us about him.
By any standard I can think of, they were for the most part illiterate barbarians, for Christ sake they lived in the Bronze Age and before??? If the biblical writers weren’t explain creationism, then what are we disagreeing about??? I was always taught that the bible IS the word of god but if it is (???) letter, couldn’t he have written a coherent one with some truth in it? Was there a question in here??? I don’t know anything about you, but you sound ignorant to me, ask me some more and I will tell you what I really think. And of course by us you mean somebody else, the religious ‘us’. Any good true ‘birds and the bees’ story would have been more useful to humanity. Logic to you means only one thing, agreeing with you explicitly or being wrong about everything … in this case, I am perfectly happy being wrong all the time.
Quoting Jythier, reply 7
Now, beyond that, he built into creation the key that he exists, which is that as we discover more deeply what a cell is, how it works, and how we are atomically put together, etc, we merely continue to find that we are more and more complex than we ever imagined. That life has such complexities in it that we can't even see with the naked eye, that it had to be designed by someone - not just stuck here.
Biblical gobbledygook … was there a question in here??? Those barbarians didn’t know anything about cells or atomic structure (they couldn’t). This is just a modern 21st century creationist playing with science (even though it the devils work, being knowledge and all that). Now we are back to the designer huh. Take your ID and challenge the courts again, when they stop throwing you guys out on your behinds, then I will re-evaluate, maybe … but until then, I won’t allow you to go there free of charge. By the way, creationism went down the legal tubes first. I can make the argument that a rock is designed and you are clueless as to complexity because to you, it only means something you can ‘claim’ was designed by guess who again, without a stitch of evidence.
Quoting Jythier, reply 7
This is where you say I'm brainwashed and stupid and don't understand you. Can we just skip that part and have you actually, in a nice way, answer these points?
You got it in spades … was there a question in here???. I am more than willing to discuss evolution; only with someone who really doesn’t know about it (???) or someone who at least understands it (belief not required)  … you don’t qualify on either count. But making silly statements like "evolution doesn't work, period" is such a conversation ender. You don't understand me and you are brainwashed ... you only believe the bible, what would you call it???

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top

Well, I feel bad about the empty space so I will be shameless and plug my own post about biblical silliness entitled “A leap of faith” where I am presently ‘opinionating’ a real literal revelation of Genesis. So have a laugh and stop on by, hahaha.

Noah's Ark   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk1owD9y1hc

Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top

The problem with Christians (whatever) is that hum … that they are Christians (whatever). There is nothing in the universe that we know of that I cannot reference from even my generic online encyclopedia (Wiki is just fine) that I cannot explain (still working on string theory, in time I will) but I cannot explain it to anyone who refuses to acknowledge the best minds in any field today (besides theology). Whatever it is that they believe is nothing more than something they believe, because they have no earthly basis to connect their belief to … it is all magic … a mental disorder. If you think Jesus is going to pull the proverbial rabbit out of the celestial hat, well that is just amazing to me here in the 21st century!!! I understand religion and spirituality … but I don’t understand intentional ignorance???

Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

If you are a Muslim fundamentalist (applies to all dogmatic beliefs), then you are as knowledgeable as you are ever likely to become, but there is still time to digress further (to be forced on everyone else too) into a physical first century world taken verbatim from your first millennium psychotic fact book. They didn’t have any science then so they are excused for their ignorance, but they sure could have used it. I still remember when and where algebra became a mathematical discipline in its own right. Well we have plenty of science today and the human experience has flourished because of it, where allowed. We have driven all the boogiemen from the real world and no longer rely on mentally dysfunctional barbarians … at least some of us have anyway. As a believer in mysticism, you might want to ask yourself if a science-less world would be the ideal environment for your children where they will die young and often from easily prevented maladies. Humm … seems this is what you folks want … I just call it insanity!

The trouble with Islam   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhN6CG1zCRc

 

Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top

Scientists that experiment to verify observable phenomenon are awesome.  I like those scientists.

Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top

The word “God” is a singular noun mistranslated from the plural Hebrew noun “Elohim” or gods, the trinity perhaps? This concept became Christian doctrine during the first council of Nicaea in 325 CE when the “bishops and the Christian church of Rome (Constantine) gathered to decide what we were to believe henceforth. The council's role in establishing the biblical canon is a fallacy and dealt primarily with the issue of the deity of Christ via the trinity.  In fact, there is no record of any discussion of the biblical canon at the council at all. The Christian cannon took centuries to try and make work. Unfortunately, Genesis was written millennia before Christianity was even a pipe dream. Those archaic Hebrews never believed in such things so they couldn’t have written anything about it. Speaking of those rascally Hebrews, they may have paid homage mostly to one god, but they sure believed there were many others in existence too. In Genesis 1, the term “And god said, let there be …” is used 6 times, but whom was he talking to if not to the other gods … or to himself. In Genesis 1–26:  “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:” Again the plural references which are not indicative or applicable if only one god ‘exists’.

Exodus 3-13: When Mosses was to come to the children of Israel, he asked ‘the talking bush’ which god was he to say came calling because he was clueless. Exodus 20 states: 3 - Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 - Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Jealous of nothing or of the other gods vying for recruits too. That is the way it always was, a battle of the gods using humanity as pawns. Not really any different today except everyone else’s gods are just declared null and void … by the competition, hahaha. Jeremiah 7-18 references the preparation of vittles to the ‘queen of heaven’ and the other gods so as not to provoke god to anger. And the queen of heaven was one of those pesky but popular Hebrew deities of old. From the above, it is easy to see that ‘Elohim’ consist of gods from both sexes … gods one and all. The collective of heaven, that one I like … at least it is fair which is unheard of today in religious circles.

PS - The Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible defines "elohim" as a plural of eloah.

Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting Jythier, reply 12
Scientists that experiment to verify observable phenomenon are awesome. I like those scientists.
Well then which sciences don’t fit in here. I cannot think of one myself that doesn’t require some kind of observable phenomenon to work with … else there would be nothing to test or observe and no reason to suspect any deific intervention. How about naming just one or two of the scholastic sciences that are defunct … and why aren’t all the other sciences that rely on two way collaboration with them not fubar too … why would they be of any use to anyone then??? You like to make little jibes like this and then you never back them up with anything of merit. You cannot pick and choose your sciences (guessing you can though) like you pick and choose your bible … no way no how.

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top

GFTESS,

Just found and read your article. There is lots there to discuss! 

You write: 

Faith is unreliable, harmful and so unnecessary.....a delusional belief according to you! 

 

Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 15
You write: 

Faith is unreliable, harmful and so unnecessary

When you step in an elevator...don't you have faith (an intellectual conviction) in those who designed, built, maintain and operate it?

When you take a trip by plane, aren't you putting faith in the airline and pilot?

 

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 16
Reply #16 lulapilgrim
Faith is a religious word and has little to do with reality. People who use ‘faith’ as THE reason for everything are people who are incapable of proving their case in any real way. I understand the engineering and safeguards built into elevators and airplanes and whatnots, else I wouldn’t use them. Like I said, faith which is not based on facts is a mental condition and is totally undependable. No different than ‘wishing’ you had some ‘proof’ to back up your medieval beliefs, which of course you don’t.

Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting GirlFriendTess, reply 17
Faith is a religious word and has little to do with reality.

Look up the word "faith" in the dictionary and you'll see faith is more than just a religious word...and has plenty to do with reality (I'll get to that later.)  In my dictionary, faith as a religious system, "the Catholic Faith, the Jewish Faith, is the 4th definition!

 

Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top

Faith is nothing more or less than a desire for a specific outcome. Your faith in one team has no influence in the outcome of the game unless you feel personally empowered somehow to subjectively influence reality, same for the elevator. Play all the word games you like, just don’t play them with me. We both know that faith means only one thing to you so why pretend otherwise?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ

Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top

Likewise, your desire for there to be no God has no influence on whether there is a God or not.

Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top

Faith is unreliable, harmful and so unnecessary. 
 

Quoting GirlFriendTess, reply 17
Faith is a religious word and has little to do with reality.

Quoting GirlFriendTess, reply 19
We both know that faith means only one thing to you so why pretend otherwise?

By faith, we believe things and faith isn't only belief in religious things is what I'm trying to get across to you.

So please take your blinders off and be open minded. 

Even you MFTess have faith.....

According to the dictionary...

"Faith"...a believing; trust or confidence. Example: We have faith in our friends, doctors, and teachers. 

 

In the other blog I gave an example of faith that is worth bringing into this discussion.

Simply put: By faith we believe things...an intellectual conviction.  

So faith is the starting point of our study and acceptance of believe in things in the authority of teachers who teach that 2 x 2= 4.

When we send our children to school, we do so with the command that they do what we did, that is, accept upon faith in their teachers, the belief that 2 x 2=4. 

If a friend tells of an accident, and I did not see it myself, then I have no direct evidence and I can choose to believe or not to do so. I can put my faith in what my friend tells me or not. 

So why do you object when the same principle, the same process, is followed in faith in the existence of God and in His religion?

Now, both Science and the Christian religion call for belief by faith and study. Faith precedes all study.  It is utterly impossible to study and believe in any scientific subject as well as religion without accepting first principles on faith, without faith in the teachers. 

Science is human faith knowing how God works in the natural order, and the Christian Religion is supernatural Faith knowing how God works in the Supernatural order.  

Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting GirlFriendTess, reply 17
Faith is a religious word and has little to do with reality.

Your misunderstanding is due to failure to properly appreciate what faith really is and its basic role in the sphere of Science as well as Religion. 

As I have clearly shown, there is Divine Faith ( a supernatural virtue) and there is human faith. Faith is an intellectual assent of the mind to the acceptance of a truth upon the authority of someone else. In Religion, it is infallible Divine authority, "taking God at His word". In Science, mathematics, etc., it is dependence upon fallible human authorities (my example was teachers) who may or may not be right depending depending on personal integrity. 

Quoting GirlFriendTess, reply 17
People who use ‘faith’ as THE reason for everything are people who are incapable of proving their case in any real way.

Ha, ha, listen to yourself...when you have faith in the makers of elevators and airplanes and so forth and so on.

Quoting GirlFriendTess, reply 17
I understand the engineering and safeguards built into elevators and airplanes and whatnots, else I wouldn’t use them.

See, this makes my case. What you really mean is that you have human faith in the people who engineered and constructed them.

Quoting GirlFriendTess, reply 17
Like I said, faith which is not based on facts is a mental condition and is totally undependable. No different than ‘wishing’ you had some ‘proof’ to back up your medieval beliefs, which of course you don’t.

When faith of Science is accepted and not the true Christian Faith, it is wise to recall 1 St.John 5:9. "If we accept the testimony of man, the testimony of God is greater."

I have faith on science based on empirical facts as well as faith in God and His religion because it is right and cannot lead to error because God is Right, knows all things, and is Truth itself. 

 

 

 

 

Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting Jythier, reply 20
Reply #20 Jythier
Not a problem ... so stop trying to convince me unless you can provide PROOF that your golden goose even exists. I don't care what you believe or not, I don't care what you do or don't and I don't care what religious fetish you want to inflict on yourself. None of that concerns me at all. But you would FORCE me to comply with your dictates without question, without proof, without answers and without a choice ... ain't eva gunna happen.

Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 21
Reply #21 lulapilgrim
All wrong. I mostly deal with life through percentages and probabilities so you can keep your useless prayers and faith for yourself and your kind. I do not gamble and I do not believe you because you have never proved there were anything to subjugate oneself to … besides your church. Lula, I don’t care what dictionary options are available for to play with; faith is meaningless to me in any real way. If you want to call me desire for my favorite team to win ‘faith’ I could care less … but you are still full of caca.

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 22
Reply #22 lulapilgrim
Lula you are clueless. I have never told my children what to believe nor have I told them to suck up everything they are told as gospel; that is your modus operandi not mine.  I have always been honest with my children (everyone really) and would explain my views and the reasons for them when they brought things up, but there was never any collusion to entice them to conform to my world view. I am sure that is not the case for you. I cannot do anything to prevent you from stripping your own children of their humanity … but I damn sure will do something when you try to inflict your nonsense on mine. Too bad ‘live and let live’ is meaningless to you … it is not meaningless to me.

 

Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting Jythier, reply 12
Scientists that experiment to verify observable phenomenon are awesome. I like those scientists.
Could even you be more vague. You are a joke being unable to articulate even basic observations. Here I will do it for you: You like the scientists (probably don't even know any) that look forwards in time ... but the ones that look backwards are just full of shit. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds, just wondering?

Quoting Jythier, reply 20
Reply #20  Jythier
One liners now huh, how quaint. Still don't understand why you are deceitful in almost all you rant about. All one has to do is read some of your nonsensical comments to know that like Lula, you too are clueless in scientific matters. Why can't you be honest enough to admit it. If you disagree with this assertion, then let’s start an in depth discussion on evolution or creationism, all one and the same to me. I cannot lose ... you are ignorant of the sciences and can prove nothing about creationism. A hundred thousand years ago is a good place to start for me, what say you?

PS - If 100,000 years is not going back far enough then we could always go back 358,000,000 years to say the Eusthenopteron ... although I will have to do some studying in this case, not being a huge biology or anthropology geek.