DerekPaxton DerekPaxton

What's next?

What's next?

 

First off, thanks to everyone who has played the beta and provided feedback.  You are probably wondering what we are going to do next.

From a high level there are several types of gamers, different experience levels, different amounts of hours that they will spend with FE.  Someone playing their first game will appreciate and need different things than someone playing their 10th.  We need to appeal to both groups.  Because of that we will spend resources improving things that don't matter much to the sorts of hard core players that do things like read this post.

For example we are cleaning up the choose sovereign screen and making the sovereigns more archetypical.  Procipinee is clearly designated as a summoner, her summons start at higher level and she gets a free spell that puts that ability to use.  The sovereign backstory isn’t on the screen anymore to make room for more art and a general open clean feel instead of the prior lists of stats.

Imbuement has been removed from the game.  I loved the flavor of it, but players didnt realize they could be casting spells with their champions.  And it makes the champions less unique if the thing that distinguishes them most (their access to spells) is missed.  It was a bit of complexity that could be dropped without losing any good gameplay.  Most notably since all the champions can cast from the start when you find enemy champions in the wilds they start lobbing spells at you.  For those of us that are accustomed to attacking lone champions in the wild, seeing them starting combat by throwing fireballs at us is a bit of a shock.

So one of our focuses right now is in making the game more approachable.

But we have some asset and balance work to do too.  Not game changers, we aren’t throwing out any systems.  We have a good system in place, we need to focus on the sections that are weak and take advantage of the sections that are working well.

For example, I like the ability to recruit monsters.  But it’s too hard to get and not rewarding enough when you do.  So the Bonding Ceremony and Mercenaries techs are gone.  Instead the ability to create those improvements comes on other techs that were already worth getting (higher level improvements that allow you to recruit things like dragons and ogres are still special techs).  Most importantly when you train a monster like a Drake or Troll in your cities they will start at the normal level for that monster type, not level 1.  So your drake will start as a level 6 drake and capable of doing some damage.

The magic tree had some exciting things hidden in it but it needed some work to bring it out.  So we created a few new craftable items like magical staves, enchanted robes, etc.  Along with this came 30 new unit’s designs, 3 for each faction.  These include trainable Mages (units with magical staves that shoot fire or ice), mid-level warriors with magical weapons and end game units that have the best enchanted weapons, armor, traits and mounts the game has to offer.  If you see these marching over from the AI player you may be in trouble.

Champions aren't being nerfed as much as things are being balanced around them.  The most significant direct change to champions is that injuries matter more.  If you have a champion with 6-7 injuries on him he will be severely handicapped, it may be time to hand his equipment over to a promising newcomer without the battle scars.  XP is divided by the members of group to make it less rewarding to steamroll the map with your stack of super heroes.

But the big changes are in dramatically decreasing the tech costs.  There were always good units to make, but if your champions were level 7-8 by the time you got to them then it didn't matter.  Now your trained units are better, come earlier and mean more.

Quests are another area that need some attention.  Specifically we want more interesting rewards on them.  If you give the potion of restoration to the butcherman he will join you.  If you take the noblemans daughter back to his estate you will get a choice of rewards to pick from.  And of course any quests with bugs need to be fixed.

Add that in with a bundle of stability and performance improvements, bug fixes, new art and sounds and you have our hit list for the next patch.  I will release more details as it gets closer, we have lots to do and I'm excited to see what you guys think when you have a chance to play it.

 

342,598 views 144 replies
Reply #76 Top

Distributing XP evenly isn't really a change, it's just less of the same.  See this post as a fairly simple alternative.

Reply #77 Top
So is xp also going to redistribute evenly with non-champion group members resulting in slower leveling of normal troops?
Reply #78 Top

One interesting idea - to help balance out the difference between character/heroes and units - would be to have two types of characters: Generals and Heroes.  Heroes would have a limited number of train-enhancements and in focused areas, whereas Generals might have a different (higher?) limit with entirely different traits available.  

You would then impose a stack limit of no more than one of each type in a stack, meaning players would be forced to diversify armies with a balance of a General, Hero and a group of basic and advanced units.  This might help to balance the game, prevent or limit the super-stacks of character-only armies, and encourage a more 'realistic' type of unit/character mix.  It may open up utilization of characters as 'governors' in cities, developing traits that will strengthen the economy or other aspects of the city, instead of the combat-centric focus that is so common now.

- edit - 

As a follow-up, there should be a system incorporated into the game allowing the player to cultivate and develop or recruit new characters, to prevent a character lock-out from happening.  Granted, they might have only low-level characters to work with, but at least they have someone to lead the grunts if all of their characters die in action.

Reply #79 Top

From playing on hard quite a bit, I have the feeling the factions AI is a lot less threatening than the monsters, in that I can usually just ignore them and concentrate on killing monsters and earning xp for my sovereign and heroes because I know they pose no threat (unless I went to far in the map to protect my realm), and then steamroll them.

 

I also noticed the lack of bows and skills that matter for heroes/sovereigns that choose that weapon. And it's not clear for me which stat would be more rewarding to increase to make them do more damage. Is it dex, str? For skill tech choices, is it path of the assassin? warrior? Most of the skills you get after seem to be more appropriate for a melee character than a ranged one. I tried pure mage and pure warrior sovereigns (I love playing "heroes" kind of games, and make them really powerful), and they both work really well. Mage's damage and cost of spells escalate really well, especially in large maps where you get access to several shards. And warriors get the same through skills and gear. For archers, I just don't know...

 

One last thing: I still could't finish a game. At some point, I just can't load my saves anymore (none of them). Maybe it's related to some quest bug, I don't know.

P.S.: I didn't know where to post feedback, so I did it here. Hopefully it's not misplaced as it may get read and be of some help.

Reply #80 Top

I think champions should have an increased chance of dieing after 2 injuries; or if people dont liek that you could make it an option as I personally dont want immortal champions that come back to life over and over. I personally think this would be really good giving you a chance to make a couple of mistakes and still have your champion.

Anyway I just hope you at least include champion death as an option thanks :).

Reply #81 Top

Yay I want .78 now :-)

on a side note Steam is having a sale on Skyrim so I think I might finally buy a copy which should keep me busy until .78 is released

Reply #82 Top

Quoting Colbert30, reply 79
From playing on hard quite a bit, I have the feeling the factions AI is a lot less threatening than the monsters, in that I can usually just ignore them and concentrate on killing monsters and earning xp for my sovereign and heroes because I know they pose no threat (unless I went to far in the map to protect my realm), and then steamroll them.

 

I also noticed the lack of bows and skills that matter for heroes/sovereigns that choose that weapon. And it's not clear for me which stat would be more rewarding to increase to make them do more damage. Is it dex, str? For skill tech choices, is it path of the assassin? warrior? Most of the skills you get after seem to be more appropriate for a melee character than a ranged one. I tried pure mage and pure warrior sovereigns (I love playing "heroes" kind of games, and make them really powerful), and they both work really well. Mage's damage and cost of spells escalate really well, especially in large maps where you get access to several shards. And warriors get the same through skills and gear. For archers, I just don't know...

 

One last thing: I still could't finish a game. At some point, I just can't load my saves anymore (none of them). Maybe it's related to some quest bug, I don't know.

P.S.: I didn't know where to post feedback, so I did it here. Hopefully it's not misplaced as it may get read and be of some help.

You need to post any problems with game function in the FE Support subforum. The Developer Journals are where the devs tell the testers about upcoming changes. 

Reply #83 Top

Quoting LightofAbraxas, reply 69

Quoting mastroego, reply 67Seems like a lot of users are beginning to feel like I feel.

The trees are pre-planned as a linear progression of "Steps That Unlock Things". What those things actually ARE is secondary. Items on a Spreadsheet. Now take for example Civ: if you want to improve your weapons, you can't just research "warfare". You want gunpowder? Sorry, my dear warlord, you'll have to learn some chemistry, first. In a tech tree conceived this way, the meaning of the items (with all of their relations and implications!) comes first. This is why it feels more alive and meaningful. 

 
I agree that the tech tree is pretty uninspired.

Which is a shame. Post-apocalyptic fantasy is a pretty unique setting that lends itself really well to interesting tech research. As it stands now, the tech tree doesn't really do that much except stretch out the game. It doesn't really add that much in the way of immersion or ambiance, and if it contributes anything to strategy, I haven't seen it.

Granted, the tech tree right now isn't bad, it's more of an issue of wasted potential. 

 

I am on this bandwagon. When I think magic fantasy, I think of a game that can cover all bases - what about Cannons? Magic inspired siege weapons? What about caravans with alternative transportation or protection methods? City walls made of crystal? City walls formed of magic (Dalaran from WoW)? Magitech, anyone? This of course brings me back to summoning idea too. If you could build, say, a portal to the underworld that generated 1 skeletal horse......

 

Most of this is nuts, of course. I do feel the tech tree is really mundane. If a game based on the history of the world, Civilization, can have a more interesting SINGLE tech tree than a game built in a world made by imagination that has 3 tech trees (which is an awesome idea imo), I really feel the trees need to be more exciting.

Another great game with awesome tech trees? Galactic Civilizations 2: Twilight of the Arnor. ;)

Reply #84 Top

At risk of repeating what others have said, all champs being able to case makes the no-magic-on-autoresolve option even more important.

players didnt realize they could be casting spells with their champions
   Ack !!!!   I realized it, I just deliberately avoiding doing it because one caster is enough, mana is too precious to waste on imbuing and its maintenance, and (mostly) so autoresolve wouldn't drain as much mana.

Am unenthusiastic about spreading xp points.  I like having high-level heroes, and I thought good balance could be achieved by other means like making the higher levels take more XP points to reach them.  And I think spreading xp is unrealistic (not that unrealism is a fatal flaw in a fantasy game).  You can gain experience by being present in a combat and playing even a small part.  With more units in the army, the total amount of xp gained ought to be higher.

Reply #85 Top

My only problem with this is; what do you do with a battered old champion?  just let him hang around uselessly?  since they can't die then there needs to be something that will restore a champion, like a quest or some sort of expensive spell.  just having a gimped character hanging around is not good in my opinion.

Reply #86 Top

Quoting Lord, reply 84
At risk of repeating what others have said, all champs being able to case makes the no-magic-on-autoresolve option even more important.


players didnt realize they could be casting spells with their champions    Ack !!!!   I realized it, I just deliberately avoiding doing it because one caster is enough, mana is too precious to waste on imbuing and its maintenance, and (mostly) so autoresolve wouldn't drain as much mana.

Am unenthusiastic about spreading xp points.  I like having high-level heroes, and I thought good balance could be achieved by other means like making the higher levels take more XP points to reach them.  And I think spreading xp is unrealistic (not that unrealism is a fatal flaw in a fantasy game).  You can gain experience by being present in a combat and playing even a small part.  With more units in the army, the total amount of xp gained ought to be higher.

You know that after you imbuing a champion has no maintanence cost it was a one time deal

Reply #87 Top


*single manly tear* this game has so much going for it its quickly becoming my favorite TBS (over might and magic and AOW) welldone guys welldone

Reply #88 Top

Quoting Stmorpheus, reply 85
since they can't die then there needs to be something that will restore a champion, like a quest or some sort of expensive spell.  just having a gimped character hanging around is not good in my opinion.
     Well said.

Or maybe just have a slight chance of fixing a random disease for each turn he sits around in a city.  Or maybe for each turn he spends sitting stacked with a healer.

Reply #89 Top

Maybe old Champions could be "attached" to cities, having the following effects

 

-he becomes part of the city's militia

-he provides an XP or stats boost to units trained in the city.

 

 

Reply #90 Top

Or add a "retire" option. When a hero retire you can chose what he will be doing now : training new champions in the attached city (+1xp per turn for garrisoned champ), forging weapons, reducing training time, working for a better understanding between nations, etc.

Reply #91 Top


I have to say I LOVE the idea of Veteran champions being used as magistrates in cities, lending their wisdom (faster construction, better resource use), or as ambassadors (more influence) or as arms masters (better troops) or as treasurers (more gold) :) I actually don't think that a great champion who can no longer be a tank is a useless game element - on the contrary, these kinds of elements lend character and generate a great feeling about the game.

 

In fact, let me throw out another idea - when great champions finally die (if they end up doing so) we should be able to construct Mausoleums bearing their names in the city of our choice, which would be unique buildings and improve morale, influence or population uptake for that city !!!

 

I am also WILD about the fact that magical item crafting has been included - I loved that feature in MOM, and it is a great RPG element when your champion or hero wields the magical sword that you created for him... I hope the crafting techs can be used to make great and wondrous items (at an appropriate cost of course) - and PLEASE let us choose the name and / or the appearance of the items we craft !!!

 

Finally, I would like to echo the desire for even more variety of mundane weapons and / or armor choices for the early game. I realize it's a graphical drain and perhaps a poor use of your graphics artists, but the ability to generate more varied troops (different armor, different weapons) even in the beginning would be very nice! Of course, being greedy, I would expect the variety and quality of available items to improve even more as higher levels and more techs were reached (you can never win with us gamers :))

 

Anyway, keep up the great job - I am actually daydreaming about this game, which may end up being a great and worthy successor to MoM, and all of us appreciate your responsiveness and efforts to make it as good as possible.

Reply #92 Top

In addition to my earlier comments, I have to say that removing Imbuement also feels wrong. It was one of the original ideas that ADDED to the flavour while giving an additional layer of choice to the player. The accessibility problem could have been solved with a big red line "Unit cannot cast spells unless imbued!". But yes, they also had to give a fighting chance to enemy heroes standing there in the open. Which in turn descends from the ill-conceived idea to have heroes standing there in the first place, either waiting to be slaughter or "unlocked". 

Similarly, speeding up research isn't really a fix to the blandness of the tech tree, it'll just allow everyone to learn every tech, every game. 

It happens in my job as well: unless you're willing to fix the mistake you did at the very start of the chain, it'll haunt you till the end and taint the final results as well.

Reply #94 Top


This whole issue with champions not being able to cast spells is pretty silly. Let's assume for a moment that 'mage' champions have lost the ability to cast spells of any kind. How (and why) in the hell did they train themselves to use something that no longer exists? The cataclysm happened a few hundred years ago, not last week. Secondly, assuming that they did somehow magically obtain the knowledge of spellcasting, why do they -charge- you to hire them, when without you they would be as useless as a sack of rats?

If some dude was like: Join my army and you can cast fireballs and/or level mountains, I would get down on my knees and suck his **** for the opportunity.

Now lets assume that soveriegns are the only people that can 'tap into crystals' is the driving point behind the lore. That is to say, normal people can still cast spells but lack the mana reserves and the appropriate shards to cast world changing magic, therefore we still have a reason for the soveriegns. So there can be champions that have set up a base (with some protectors) using their 'minor' magical skills to awe or placate their followers.

The alternative is to start NO champions with magical skills, as learning such a thing would be ludicrous in a world supposedly devoid of magic. Then on top of that.. why in the hell are there ogre shamans that can cast spells, and why do dragons exist? Aren't they 'magical' creatures?

Where does the soveriegn even STORE mana? Is it in his trusty treasure box in the treasury room of his non-existant castle?

Seriously.. there are some times where you have to take the functions of a video game with a grain of salt - this is one of them.

 

Reply #95 Top

I agree.  I was getting a bit carried away with black-and-white interpretations of the lore. ;-)  What has been said since my comments regarding imbuing has made a lot of sense. =)

Reply #96 Top

Back in the mists of time, when I saw the first glimpses of Elemental, I was very excited.  It reminded me of the classic wargame 'Lords of Midnight', where your heroes would set off into a vast white world, to save the land from conquest.  It was the scape of that game, and the constant sense of danger and mystery that kept you playing, just one more turn...  Could I recruit the legendary hero Utag of Utag in his citadel in the south-western wilds, before the enemy sundered those lands..? 

Well, fast forward 25 years..  Technology has changed quite a bit (although apparently we still can't have red shirts and white leggings on the same character), but has gameplay advanced?  I'm afraid and sad to say, on the basis of Elemental, in both its guises, no.  I was greatly encouraged when Kael took the helm, hoping for imagination, inventiveness, a confident approach and some unexpected treasures - but these have yet to surface.  I don't think that E:WoM ever quite recovered from that crisis of confidence from day 1 of the premature release.  Now, FE tries to distance itself from that magnificent white elephant - but it's very hard to run from something who's shadow is so long.. 

There seems to be no clear roadmap for FE - no clear identity that shouts, 'I am Fallen Enchantress, tremble oh mortals before me!'  The distinct character that we were promised has not materialised.  When you load the game, you are not immersed into its world, its myths and folklore, its perils and whispered promises.  What it certainly still is, is WoM with a new wardrobe, but the same identity crisis.

I mean - to make sudden decisions, U-turns, back-pedals with such huge things as imbuing champions, feels like a drowning man (or woman, Elf, etc..) clutching at straws.  The things that worked in WoM (like Dynasties) have been abandoned, despite huge popular outcry to bring them back.  At least in WoM, you could build a port, build a ship and travel the world - get off your own island and see what lies beyond.  Until ships are reintroduced (in whatever basic form), I cannot play this game with any kind of enthusiasm. 

The Stardock team, I think, has really got to make some fundamental decisions about exactly where this game is going.  Someone needs to take firm control, as Kael did in Fall from Heaven.  There needs to be a spark or two of real inventiveness and left-field thinking - from somewhere.  It can happen.  Please, let it be so...

 

 

Reply #97 Top

A short while before I became aware of E:WoM, I was running my own net-based wargame called 'Elemental Wars'.  In each hex of the map, there was a small chance that you would discover a rare resource, that could be of great benefit to your Empire/Kingdom.   Maybe it was a phoenix colony in the shadow of a volcano - that could provide you with phoenix feathers - with a bit of arcane research and applied military science, you could create a lightly encumbered unit with phoenix boots, that could fly for brief distances - the perfect scouts/adventurers.  Or you might find a village of ancient tribesmen, you could teach you new technologies, crafts, battle skills, spells..  A crop of glowing buckwheat, that made magical draughts of ale to inspire your city or give whoever quaffed it strange dreams and visions of the future..  Prospectors would scour the land for new mineral resources, which could revolutionise armies and send the gathering foe fleeing from your lands.  Please, don't homogenise things, don't make Sovereigns more archetypal, as you say you are doing.  What we don't need right now is archetypes and cliches.  What we need is inspiration!!

 

 

  

Reply #98 Top

Good points!  I think FE can be still quite a good game, but it does lack that "spark", like Heroes of Might and Magic II or MOM have.

Reply #99 Top

Quoting StevenAus, reply 98
Good points! I think FE can be still quite a good game, but it does lack that "spark", like Heroes of Might and Magic II or MOM have.

 

Thanks :)  And yes, absolutely.

 

 

Reply #100 Top

The game world needs far more connection with the gameplay - including the oceans.  More than just a hunt for the tiles with the best food/materials, to build a city.  As the name Elemental suggests, all elements should be crucial to success - be they forests, water, stone, metal - or rare and magical.  We must feel a part of the world in which we are playing - we must feel that everything on the map matters - and we must feel that the land is alive, and a part of our unfolding story within the game.