But its got to be as least as an exciting choice as a promotion on a unit in FFH (some of which you do really care about, some of which you want to plan ahead on.)

vsUnitType needs a related conditional also

vsWeaponType: cavalry should have a bonus vs archers.

vsMounted- a spear unit vs cavalry for example

That said, on level-ups, I would really want a system that can't be gamed.  I'd rather have a slot machine.

I'm not too worried about getting the system right the first time either- gotta remember that FE isn't the last expansion.  The big thing is that FE has to be worth playing for a good stretch of time.

that's fair enough and i can see your line of reasoning. i think it is possible to avoid a bewildering array of choices without resorting to randomisation, but i won't press the point any further.

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If there are going to be unique traits, what is the chance of having them modify the name of the champion/sovereign with them?

It would add more flavor to the game, identify champions and sovereigns with really powerful talents, and make them feel (at least as far as I'm concerned) a little cooler.

Also, Sethai, remember that one can potentially mod in those deep, interlaced skill trees as Derek mentioned previously.  The great thing about this style of game is that the devs can create the game to be consistent and fun for X number of hours or game turns, but if they have the forethought to give the  modding community the tools they need to successfully create great mods which expand the game so any player can enjoy whichever version of the game they so choose, you will almost certainly those mods arise.

Just a quick FYI. Some of the trait submissions aren't appearing correctly in web browsers. I'm using chrome, and my trait submission is being cut off. It looks like longer submissions need to have a scroll bar.

Okay, this is definitely one of the most interesting features, and I really hope there will be many more conditional and triggers. 

Here's a list of triggers I'd really like to see, for instance (with an example of what could be done with it):

-When attacking (lots of proc-like powers: blood rage, life steal, fear...).

-When dealing at least X damage. (Very flexible tool: vorpal swords that kill the target when dealing large damage, poison for "at least 1 damage").

-When reduced to X percent HP (emergency teleport/shield)

-When receiving at least X damage (auto-heal, or negative traits like "cowardly" that makes the unit flee).

-When being attacked (shield that damages the enemy).

-When flanking (dirty blow, distraction).

-When enemy has trait X (many examples: bonus against cavalry, hunters against beasts, clerics vs. undead...)

Also, if we could give a probability for trait activation, that would be really nice as well. That, or a mechanism for resistance rolls. And a flag for stackable/non-stackable traits.

I am very much in favor of class-specific traits, with dynamic probability involved (somewhat similar to HoMM skills). Having classes for heroes makes a lot of sense - the risk otherwise being to have a lot of heroes with identity crises. I also very much like the idea of prereq, so that starting ability will influence the sort of ability you are likely to gain access to. I hope there will be slow-improving traits whose bonus increases with levels.

How about flaws? It'd be nice to have at times, among the traits to choose from, a couple of a strong trait paired with a flaw, of the sort "take both or none". Something like "Demonic legacy" + "colleric", "Unholy power" + "corrupted blood", "God favored" + "pacifist" or maybe even "child of Fire" + "heartburn"...    Or, maybe this can made things too complicated for heroes and may just be an idea for channelers?

More in general, I'd like to have quests or random events that allow a hero exchanging a trait he already has for another... just to improve the taste for uniqueness and randomness, in the right amount...

Paired traits would be awesome! Or maybe when you have a strong & rare trait present give the player the a hard choice to make by making it so that all the other traits are multiple weaker traits or a weaker trait and a stat boost.

I think its a cool idea. I'd love for the following to be added to the trait selection:

Allow me to re-roll the available traits, only remove a selection slot when I do. So, you give me 5, I say, "meh", re-roll, and get a selection of 4, so on, till I have but one trait available to me that I have to take.

That way I get a little more "in control", but at a risk - oh and the save/load crowd gets less incentive to save the game every time a hero is about to level up, and bitches less about long save/load times cause it doesn't have to happen so frequently, and you're freed from having to create a system that counters the save/load tactic for this specific mechanic.

My 10 cents.

Will traits be given as quest rewards?

This needs to be possible. Also traits added by spell/ritual. Negative traits added to your enemies. Traits added (good and bad) from notable locations (you found a ring tried it on and now it won't come off)

This !!!

Totally random champions are strange. Because they are equally likely to have any trait, they are all disposable so you pretty much don't care who you get at the start at level 1 since they are all equally like to get any other trait.. Unless I suppose some of them have some super rare trait at level 1.  But even then it's not like this will affect the progression of the champion since they can't build on it.

MOM is on the other extreme, each of the heroes are very different even at Level 1 , heroes in MOM are a lot more predictable (there are some random picks at the start) once you get them there is no uncertainity at all. Despite that it's fun.

HOMM like randomisation is best i think... Mage type heroes will tend to get mage skills but may occasionally get fighting skills. This allows some planning, so you can say "I got 2 mage type heroes, I need a barbarian hero now"

If everything is random, you care less if you got a third hero who starts with some mage skills, since when he levels up he is equally likely to get barbarian skills. 

Derek, your point here is completely understandable. Leveling character should definitely not be the main focus of any 4x game, and should probably not be the avenue by which players create long term goals for their champions. In general, these long term goals should be a reflection of both the champion's actions and the long term strategic needs of the player. Thus, leveling should be a kind of reward aiding these goals instead of defining them. However, without some kind of dynamic randomization within the leveling mechanism, this reward can neither aid nor define the strategic role of the champion as one could not ensure that at each level there would be a trait that either reflected the long term goals of the player or even gave the champion worthwhile boost.

If I may, I'd like to suggest traits that are unique to a faction or a race, or unique so that only one unit per faction can have it at a time, one unit among all factionscan have it at a time throughout a game, or the trait can only exist once in an entire game. Complex, but can open up new possibilities.

Unique traits can be rare and powerful, or just special. Consider after a battle, you award one of your units with the trait "prophet" that grants that unit a vision of a coming apocalypse and that unit/faction quests out to gather the nations of the world in a grand alliance against the impending assault from invading horrors (titans? make something up). In this case, the trait that sparks a quest/world event would make sense to be unique.

Woooo, just finished my trait. Hopefully you guys like it

Defiled One:

Those that would seek mastery over their physical form through perverse means become known as a Defiled One.

Through forgotten dark rituals, a member of the Fallen can pursue unnatural physical strength and agility. But power is not without cost.

In exchange for strength, their blood is reduced to poison; veins become black and bulge outward, eager to announce their grotesque change; meat, grains and even wine all become shadows of their former selves.

Though life becomes bitter, those that keep sane after the rituals soon discover a use for their poisoned blood: through melee combat and the coating of weapons with blood, enemies can be made vulnerable to disease.

Even amongst Defiled Ones, few realize that there exist in fact three separate rituals involved in achieving true greatness. Most that pursue the defiled path rarely advance further than the first ritual. It is unknown what becomes of those who devote themselves fully to the rituals of defilement.

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Technical Details
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Limited to fallen heroes / sovereigns.

Three tiers, each which expand upon the previous tier.

Probability: rare for tier one, uncommon for tier two, uncommon for tier three.


[Tier One]

Strength + 3;
Agility + 2;
Charisma - 3;

All effects that would restore health are reduced by 50%.

Passive ability (Poisoned Blood I): When engaged in melee combat by an enemy, 50% possibility for enemy to become poisoned if they successfully attack. (-1 hp per turn, -3 strength, -3 agility, until end of battle).

Number of children sovereign can have is reduced by one (from poisoned blood + magic :P).


[Tier Two]

Strength + 4 (total of +7 now);
Agility + 3 (total of +5 now);
Charisma - 3 (total of -6 now);

All effects that would restore health are reduced by 70%.

Passive ability (Poisoned Blood II): When engaged in melee combat by an enemy, 65% possibility for enemy to become poisoned if they successfully attack. (-2 hp per turn, -5 strength, -5 agility, until end of battle).

Passive ability (Forbidden Feast): The defiled one now regains a small percentage of health after killing an enemy in melee, based on amount of health enemy had.

Number of children sovereign can have is reduced by one (-2 now in total).


[Tier Three]

Strength + 5 (total of +12 now);
Agility + 4 (total of +9 now);
Charisma - 3 (total of -9 now);

All effects that would restore health are reduced by 95%.

Passive ability (Poisoned Blood III): When engaged in melee combat by an enemy, 80% possibility for enemy to become poisoned if they successfully attack. (-3 hp per turn, -8 strength, -8 agility, until end of battle).

Active ability (Defile): The defiled one can now attempt to drain life directly from a living being (damage and health restoration based on strength). If the attack causes the target to die, the defiled one forces his/her blood down the throat of the killed bringing it back as a mindless servant (intelligence is reduced by 50%). Only works on living beings.

Passive ability (Forbidden Feast): The defiled one now regains a moderate percentage of health after killing an enemy in melee, based on amount of health enemy had.

Number of children sovereign can have is reduced by one (-3 now in total). If the defiled one chooses to have a child, his/her partner has a 50% chance to die - the child inherits the first Defiled tier.


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Balance notes
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The above figures will probably need to be adjusted to work with the new balance of Fallen Enchantress.

Well said.  If everything is random, all the champions are interchangable when you first get them. I don't really think it will make levelups slower.

We not talking abotu complicated skill trees.. Even something has simple has dividing all the traits into several groups.. and certain traits being more rare or less rare (say Fire skill 90% vs 10% for mage type characters vs others) for different champion types would do.

That's how HOMM does it, and I don't remember spending a lot of time debating level ups.

Agreed. AOW 1 had a level up system that gave you points that you could spend on ANYTHING (any trait or up a stat), not a good idea. MOM has some randomisation but only at the start when you recruited them (and you had no choice) and it's strictly deterministic after that.

HOMM (most of them but I thinking of IV), gavce you a choice of 3 stats to choose. Can't remember AOW SM but seems the same. For traits that appeared they were random with possibilities based on heroes class.

I like the idea of "Rarity" of stats, but base them on heroes class would be better. 

I assume various stats like HP will automatically go up. 

Any more information on the part in bold... That's very intriguing... 

The screenshot shows a sovereign with "Water Mage" and "Fire Disciple"  .... Hmm I suppose Fire Disciple is tier 2 trait.

I wonder if these traits merely enhance the effectiveness of spells, and/or if they restrict what can be cast. The section in bold suggests the later.

Great, now not all champions can access all your sovereign spells. Those i wonder if so what is the effect of such traits on sovereigns. 

This is looking awesome! Traits will really help hereoes differentiate themselves, and allow them to fill multiple roles. Random Traits will help make replaying the game fresher.

Wow lol. Most the submitted contest trait ideas are pretty over the top. I kept my idea simple..... 

That sums it up nicely. I'm going to have to cut and rewrite my entry though. Its too in depth and complicated, and is WAY more suited for sovereign customization (rather than champion/soldier customization). While writing the entry, I kinda lost track on the whole point of why we are doing this. I see where Derek is coming from and have to agree with him.

One other thing that might be interesting would be traits based on deeds. For example, one of the differences between Fallout 3 and New Vegas was that if you did a certain thing long enough, you'd get a perk that would make you better at it. So if you drank about 500 bottles of purified water, on hardcore mode, your H2O rating would go up slower. If you did 10,000 damage with energy weapons, you'd do an extra 20% damage with energy weapons. If you killed over 200 abomination type monsters (mutants, ghouls, etc), you'd do extra damage to those units.

So one thing that I think would be interesting would be similar traits to those. Something along the lines of Slayer of the Eight Legged; You've killed over 200 spiders, and now do extra damage to spider monsters. Felling the Fallen; You've killed over 200 Imperial units, and now do extra damage to those monsters. These don't have to be all damage related. Non damage example Highwaymen; You've walked over 400 spaces on roads, and now move 50% faster on roads, or Cutting Crosscountry; same thing as Highwaymen except its not on roads.

Just a thought.

Yeah I think my traits were perhaps a bit too indepth, I've since simplified them.

On a side note, the popups need to be fixed, many of them are too large and cannot be read properly.

My entry- The Devil's Luck

The unit with this trait is said to have the devil's luck (or an Elemental analogue there of).  This trait represents the unnatural ability to survive situations that would kill any mortal creature. Even supernatural luck runs out however, and the tragedy of the past still casst a long shadow.

The unit with this ability is saved at the brink of death when reduced to 0 or less HP in battle.  The unit is teleported to the nearest friendly city or up to 3x their movement toward the nearest friendly unit party if no friendly cities remain. However, each time this ability activates it does one of the following A)removes one trait at random from the unit (the trait removed may include Devil's Luck), or b)removes random stat points from the character equal to what would be gained in a level up (representing injury or trauma incured in effectively cheating death).

A way to pull talents up would be to have 2 ability groups, a general one, and then specialist. Where at least one is sure to show up from each. The specialist group would be composed of class race and faction talents that the unit matches to, and general would contain any other skills. I like the proposal of reducing the number of options to get a re-roll though. Having symbols that give an indication of the skills on the portrait or UI somewhere would be good too.  Such as a bow symbol that shows the character has an archery group skill- at least being able to see these for your own units to identify they quickly and easily. Not sure if you would want even the general inclination of the unit outside of their appearance to be viewed though, as that may give too much away about the risk of combat. Perhaps a mulitplier combined with a symbol....

Will modders be able to define creature types?  If they can, it would effectively allow the implementation of vs class or vs other monster type not yet created.  It might also allow other neat things like vs improvement or terrain type.

The tool kit things like the surveyer kit could be used to define classes potentially.