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The AI Meat Grinder

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The AI Meat Grinder

from JoeUser Forums

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This is a little map I made called “AI meat grinder”. Nothing fancy but it is a good testing ground for the AI in terms of building an economy, managing resources, and finding different ways to play the game.

There are 4 islands. How should the AI get to them? Should it build ships? If it gets the Earth shard, should it raise a land bridge to the others? What about the precious few resources in the world. What if there are no good resources near by? How will it decide who to attack or whether it should be friendly with someone? How should it deal with NPCs? How much should they pay for them?

These are all questions that the AI has to answer and that has been the focus of a lot of my work for the past several weeks. Slowly but surely these things are getting in.  I read in the comments area where people wonder if this or that will get in, usually features that are less than 6 engineering hours to implement.

The long, hard, scary time consuming feature is the AI.  It’s the one feature that could delay the game beyond August 24th. If the game gets delayed, the alternative release is second week of February.  Everything else in the game is relatively straight forward (for instance, winner take all vs. retreating, regardless of what we decide, the solution is less than 5 engineering hours).  By contrast, having the AI intelligently colonize an island is a matter of 60 to 80 engineering hours.  As soon as we decided to have more than 1 land mass in the game, things get a lot more interesting, especially since we don’t have pre-made cities or maps where we can script in what the AI does (ah that would be a nice easy “cheaty” way – have the map editor let me put in AI priority points on maps).

We are thinking of including the meat grinder with the game so that people can actually see the AI do its stuff.

146,327 views 89 replies
Reply #51 from Elemental Forums Top

[quote]Just as a curiosity, what is to stop a company from selling their product several months earlier online than its available to retail? Or would retails be less likely to allow you to buy shelf space after its already been several months on the market?[quote]

They'd be less likely in the sense that they wouldn't carry it.

Reply #52 from Elemental Forums Top

I know you guys would probably lose money and don't want to lose your retail slot, but I, for one, would be happy to continually Beta-Test the game so it's chock-full of extra goodness come release. :)

 

That being said; hopefully you'll make your window!

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #53 from Elemental Forums Top

A rushed game is always rushed, a delayed game is usually forgiven.

 

Plus, we got the preorder beta and you guys aren't needing cash, so I am 100% fine with a 6 month delay.

 

 

Reply #54 from Elemental Forums Top

Personally i would love to see how the AI works. I mean how many times have i wondered whats going on in the mind of a particularly dumb or smart AI? To answer my own question it depends on whether they are consistently failing or consistently owning me which im hoping its the latter. 

Balance is a good thing i think but say you play multiplayer alot, AI balance isnt as important as there not being a way to win a certain way 100% of the time with no counters. Considering most RTSs thrive because they are balanced that way, i trust this game to thrive on release simply because it comes down to me trusting stardock to achieve that particular balance. 

I hope the AI is challenging and diverse cause while not everyone who has the game will multiplayer who plays singleplayer, everyone who plays multiplayer will singleplayer either to learn how to play the game or to play when theres no competition around. 

Heres hoping to learn alot from some good AI!

Reply #55 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting arstal, reply 53
Plus, we got the preorder beta and you guys aren't needing cash, so I am 100% fine with a 6 month delay.

Definitely ok with that, especially as we'll be beta testing and getting new features in and seeing better and better AI during those extra 6 months.

Reply #56 from Elemental Forums Top

I hate the way business works... I want to live out in the jungle.

It seems ridiculous to have to pay a retail store to sell and make profit on your stuff.

That would be like tipping your tax collector. I prefer living in a small world, by myself... Without annoying fools around that I have the urge to kill.

Reply #57 from Elemental Forums Top

While there are frogs in the jungle, none of them are making video games.

I'll deal. :inlove:

Reply #58 from Elemental Forums Top

Take the time you need and don't risk your good reputation with a half backed game. It's fine for me to wait, as long the beta keeps open for us. :grin:

Reply #60 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Saije, reply 56
I hate the way business works... I want to live out in the jungle.

It seems ridiculous to have to pay a retail store to sell and make profit on your stuff.

That would be like tipping your tax collector. I prefer living in a small world, by myself... Without annoying fools around that I have the urge to kill.

 

So what do you actually think is the point of retailing? Because of all the kindness in their hearts, the retailers allow producers to sell their stuff on their shelves? Ofc not. Everyone needs to make a buck. the producers need to spread their produce and the retailers give that option, for a fee, obviously. It's all about interdependency, just like in all aspects of social life.

Reply #61 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting blk_sheep2004, reply 60



Quoting Saije,
reply 56
I hate the way business works... I want to live out in the jungle.

It seems ridiculous to have to pay a retail store to sell and make profit on your stuff.

That would be like tipping your tax collector. I prefer living in a small world, by myself... Without annoying fools around that I have the urge to kill.


 

So what do you actually think is the point of retailing? Because of all the kindness in their hearts, the retailers allow producers to sell their stuff on their shelves? Ofc not. Everyone needs to make a buck. the producers need to spread their produce and the retailers give that option, for a fee, obviously. It's all about interdependency, just like in all aspects of social life.

Ehm, there's this thing called a "markup". Retailers make a profit by charging customers more for products than the retailers buy them for. I'm sure charging your supplier for buying their stuff is nice for the retailer, but you have to admit it's a little weird. (I doubt a dairy company has to pay a supermarket to sell their milk and butter, for instance.)

But it's industry standard, so publishers just have to live with it. Might (market share) makes right.

Reply #62 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 44

One example: Recruitable NPCs were not in the original design. That came from the forums. The original battle system didn't include morale.  We originally railed against having different types of damage (fire damage, pierce damage, etc.) but now every weapon includes its damage type. There's just so much stuff that got put on the list and has gotten into the game.

I like this! :thumbsup:  This is why I respect Stardock so much.

PS. I still remember the long discussions about the weapon dmg types. I really enjoyed it. :)

Reply #63 from Elemental Forums Top

interesting that retailers won't buy games that have already been released elsewhere.

Especially interesting since most retailers seem to not care when new releases come out unless they are a AAA release. It seems like an indie game would be able to sell to retail even if its been out for a while ....

Not saying that Stardock is indie, but if I wanted to produce my own videogame at some point in the future ...

Reply #64 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Zaisha, reply 61



Ehm, there's this thing called a "markup". Retailers make a profit by charging customers more for products than the retailers buy them for. I'm sure charging your supplier for buying their stuff is nice for the retailer, but you have to admit it's a little weird. (I doubt a dairy company has to pay a supermarket to sell their milk and butter, for instance.)

But it's industry standard, so publishers just have to live with it. Might (market share) makes right.

Actually, I worked in a supermarket as a manager for years. The producer buys shelf space from the retailer. So when your favorite food is removed it could easily be because someone bought the shelf space for "new" products.

Reply #65 from Elemental Forums Top

A question: How close is beta 2 going to be to your current internal build?

I think that if it is close then people will have a lot more idea of how close the game is to ready.

It seems like a lot of people are disbelieving August as a possibility based solely on what they have seen from beta 1.

Is beta 2 going to still have stuff disabled compared to your internal build, and if so, how much?

Reply #66 from Elemental Forums Top

Sorry if this has already been answered, I only read the first thread.  Does Stardock have to wait until the retail release date to release the game via download?  Seems to me if the game is finished well ahead of Feb, but too late for August, they could still release the download, at least for the preorders, while everyone else waits until Feb to get it at the store.  Or doesn't it work like that?

I guess if you're in the beta then you'll have some version of the game to tinker with anyway while you wait.... 

Dang man I gotta get my order in already, f'n economy.  :pout:  

 

 

 

Reply #67 from Elemental Forums Top

The long, hard, scary time consuming feature is the AI. It’s the one feature that could delay the game beyond August 24th.

Personally less than 3 months from now seems way to soon.  Maybe you guys can get the game done by then but what about testing, polish and balance.  There are huge things that are barely in the game or completely non-existant (tactical combat and magic) that can have huge impacts.  I have no experience with this so hopefully your judgement is correct but February sounds like a much better time frame to me.

Reply #68 from Elemental Forums Top

Is beta 2 going to still have stuff disabled compared to your internal build, and if so, how much?

at least diplomacy and tactical battles.

Reply #69 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Blaze, reply 64

Quoting Zaisha, reply 61


Ehm, there's this thing called a "markup". Retailers make a profit by charging customers more for products than the retailers buy them for. I'm sure charging your supplier for buying their stuff is nice for the retailer, but you have to admit it's a little weird. (I doubt a dairy company has to pay a supermarket to sell their milk and butter, for instance.)

But it's industry standard, so publishers just have to live with it. Might (market share) makes right.

Actually, I worked in a supermarket as a manager for years. The producer buys shelf space from the retailer. So when your favorite food is removed it could easily be because someone bought the shelf space for "new" products.

It defrays risk on the retailer's part.  Markup only pays when the product moves.  What happens if a supplier buys space on your shelf for a dud and it doesn't sell? The retailer doesn't want to be stuck with the consequences of that.  So a smart retailer will balance the risk/profit between markup and shelf cost to producers to shield themselves as much as possible from ebbs and flows in consumer purchase - iirc.

Reply #70 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting edpfister, reply 67

The long, hard, scary time consuming feature is the AI. It’s the one feature that could delay the game beyond August 24th.

Personally less than 3 months from now seems way to soon.  Maybe you guys can get the game done by then but what about testing, polish and balance.  There are huge things that are barely in the game or completely non-existant (tactical combat and magic) that can have huge impacts.  I have no experience with this so hopefully your judgement is correct but February sounds like a much better time frame to me.

This is addressed to pretty much everyone who is thinking along this line:

How much "beta testing" were you part of for Spore? Or The Sims? Or Civilization IV? Or what have you? 

Don't assume because we have public betas that somehow those public betas are somehow representative of the full project. 

Every public beta (every. single. one) that I've done -- going back to 1993 with the OS/2 version of Galactic Civilizations has had this same thing go on.  

As other game developers can tell you, the actual "game" is maybe 10% of the total project in terms of engineering hours.  

Back in 1994, I made Star Emperor over a weekend - by myself (more here). That 2 day period included modifying the AI for the different game mechanics, a new user interface, new game mechanics, new screens, etc.  Two days.  The game went on to be a big hit. (Star Emperor was basically Warlords in space).

The point is, what takes actual TIME in game development isn't the game. It's the assets and engine.  Spending 3 months on "polishing" or "balance" would be, literally, insane.

What typically delays a game are stability and missing features.  Stability is something I'm pretty confident in nailing long before we go gold and other than the AI, the features are in.  Internally, we're in polish and balance mode already and awaiting beta 2 and 3 for more feedback.

Reply #71 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 70
Spending 3 months on "polishing" or "balance" would be, literally, insane
That's interesting.   As a non-developer and industry outsider I thought a month or so with the ~final game, plus beta feedback, would be a reasonable minimum, and 3 months would not be literally insane.

Learn something new everyday...  Sometimes I feel I'm benefiting more from being in beta than you folks are for me being in beta  ;)

To me what makes a game great is balance/polish, not fancy graphics/features.  Sure, fancy graphics/features are nice but are 'eye candy', where balance/polish are 'brain candy' and what keeps me playing instead moving on to the inevitable newer games with even fancier graphics/features.

Many games seem to leave balance to the end (understandably, as it requires the game be in its ~final form) and when time grows short it's either short-shifted or left for patching after release.

As long as the game's balance/polish at release is 'good enough' and it gets tweaked in a timely manner, all is good.

 

 

Reply #72 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting SavageBananaMan34, reply 1
Good luck! Is September too close to the holidays for you to delay to then if necessary? 

 

September is the projected release date of Civ V.  I doubt that Elemental will want to compete with it.

Reply #73 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Mike850, reply 72



Quoting SavageBananaMan34,
reply 1
Good luck! Is September too close to the holidays for you to delay to then if necessary? 


 

September is the projected release date of Civ V.  I doubt that Elemental will want to compete with it.

You call a planned August 24 release date not wanting to compete?  I think Elemental will want as much direct competition with Civ V as possible, I honestly think Elemental will wipe the floor with Civ V, if given the chance.

Of couse, some people will buy civ V because it is a better known franchise.  But I think Elemental will be a far superior game.:ninja:

Reply #74 from Elemental Forums Top

All the more reason to pre-order.  If there is slippage until next year, we at least have the beta to keep us warm.

Reply #75 from Elemental Forums Top

(Good memories of Rise of Nation Islands battles against ai and people...)

 

Early is good but then again... longer for more features... O:)