The AI Meat Grinder

from JoeUser Forums

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This is a little map I made called “AI meat grinder”. Nothing fancy but it is a good testing ground for the AI in terms of building an economy, managing resources, and finding different ways to play the game.

There are 4 islands. How should the AI get to them? Should it build ships? If it gets the Earth shard, should it raise a land bridge to the others? What about the precious few resources in the world. What if there are no good resources near by? How will it decide who to attack or whether it should be friendly with someone? How should it deal with NPCs? How much should they pay for them?

These are all questions that the AI has to answer and that has been the focus of a lot of my work for the past several weeks. Slowly but surely these things are getting in.  I read in the comments area where people wonder if this or that will get in, usually features that are less than 6 engineering hours to implement.

The long, hard, scary time consuming feature is the AI.  It’s the one feature that could delay the game beyond August 24th. If the game gets delayed, the alternative release is second week of February.  Everything else in the game is relatively straight forward (for instance, winner take all vs. retreating, regardless of what we decide, the solution is less than 5 engineering hours).  By contrast, having the AI intelligently colonize an island is a matter of 60 to 80 engineering hours.  As soon as we decided to have more than 1 land mass in the game, things get a lot more interesting, especially since we don’t have pre-made cities or maps where we can script in what the AI does (ah that would be a nice easy “cheaty” way – have the map editor let me put in AI priority points on maps).

We are thinking of including the meat grinder with the game so that people can actually see the AI do its stuff.

146,323 views 89 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Good luck! Is September too close to the holidays for you to delay to then if necessary? 

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I am moderately sure that february remark was a joke :) and yes including the "meatgrinder" map is a great ideea i'll love to play it at least for the reason that i had such a big role in defining Elemental's AI,

 

 

 

Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Okay I am confused. I know you guys said a holiday release was not possible because it was booked? Obviously I am not in marketing lol.

But why, what does booked mean, is it that your factory cannot develop the tangible products during that season, the retailers can't/won't accept it then, All you folks are busy getting drunk off spiked egg nog ;-p?

I am just wondering what the semi-specifics (if you can't go into detail) of why it is either Summer or Febuary (Shudder).

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting XeronX, reply 3
Okay I am confused. I know you guys said a holiday release was not possible because it was booked? Obviously I am not in marketing lol.

But why, what does booked mean, is it that your factory cannot develop the tangible products during that season, the retailers can't/won't accept it then, All you folks are busy getting drunk off spiked egg nog ?

I am just wondering what the semi-specifics (if you can't go into detail) of why it is either Summer or Febuary (Shudder).

You reserve your slot at retail. You miss your slot, you have to wait until the next open one. 

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting raduciu, reply 2
I am moderately sure that february remark was a joke and yes including the "meatgrinder" map is a great ideea i'll love to play it at least for the reason that i had such a big role in defining Elemental's AI,

 

 

 

I don't think it's a joke. It's been mentioned in a couple of dev journals now that if the game is delayed, the release will be early 2011...

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

You reserve your slot at retail. You miss your slot, you have to wait until the next open one.

How much sales do you hope to hit on retails as opposed to sales achieved through internet download?

It always seemed to me Stardock has always been a bigger fish when it came to software sale, which is 100% independant of retail spot.

Anyway, good work on the AI. I am so looking forward trying and buying this game!

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

By contrast, having the AI intelligently colonize an island is a matter of 60 to 80 engineering hours.

 

Give yourself more credit, if it merely took one guy working for two weeks, I'm sure that more TBS games of the past would've actually gotten this one right :P

But seriously, if you actually pull all that off - an AI that can deal with rushes, adapt to resource-sparse conditions, colonize islands, etc., and above all an AI that can intelligently analyze its situation and figure out which of those conditions it needs to deal with - and do all that well without needing to "cheat" to compete with even an average player - that alone would make Elemental unique among TBS games.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

I do not know it if would be possible, but I would love to tinker with the AI code myself, and actually be able to use it in game! :grin:    Your description of the meat grinder makes me want to play with it, and not just watch it.  Please!!

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

I think its been stated that we'll have access to a large chunk of the AI via python and XML. 

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

I think its been stated that we'll have access to a large chunk of the AI via python and XML.

I can't wait until pitting myself against the best AI the community will come up with.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

I am always I little bit scared when the words AI and Learn are in the same sentence... we are going to create skynet, so that we have someone to play Elemental against :(

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd love if you included The Meatgrinder as a file hidden somewhere else in the game folders.

 

Of maybe just simply in there to begin with. I think the hunt would be cooler.

 

I do not envy you the task, Brad.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

I am always I little bit scared when the words AI and Learn are in the same sentence... we are going to create skynet, so that we have someone to play Elemental against

On the other hand, tell yourself that Skynet will try to destroy us by focusing his Essence in order to create a massive fireball.

He won't succeed much, won't he? ^_^

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Austinvn, reply 7




quoting post
By contrast, having the AI intelligently colonize an island is a matter of 60 to 80 engineering hours.


 

Give yourself more credit, if it merely took one guy working for two weeks, I'm sure that more TBS games of the past would've actually gotten this one right

But seriously, if you actually pull all that off - an AI that can deal with rushes, adapt to resource-sparse conditions, colonize islands, etc., and above all an AI that can intelligently analyze its situation and figure out which of those conditions it needs to deal with - and do all that well without needing to "cheat" to compete with even an average player - that alone would make Elemental unique among TBS games.

Yeah give yoourself some credit you can't do worse than Star Wars Republic, good game overall, but the AI was dumb as a box of rocks (I don't think it cheated though either).

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Star Wars Republic

Please remember me, what was that game? First time I hear about it.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Here's hoping the AI can kick our butts.  :d

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top



The long, hard, scary time consuming feature is the AI.  It’s the one feature that could delay the game beyond August 24th. If the game gets delayed, the alternative release is second week of February.

 

I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror...

Reply #18 from Demigod Forums Top


The long, hard, scary time consuming feature is the AI.  It’s the one feature that could delay the game beyond August 24th. If the game gets delayed, the alternative release is second week of February.

 

sry but can i ask why?

 

i mean its some kind of internal joke?

otherwise how is it possible that cant be delayed just 2 months or 3 or 1? i mean if you now think its possible to finish 24th august if you are wrong you should be wrong by a small margin, isnt it?

 

im kinda confused about this gap

 

or you just want to avoid the exit of civ? that would be wise btw

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

There is a lot of time between August 2010 and February 2011! More betas? More features? If so we might as well wait till Feb 11!

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

I think if things start looking grim, there are quite a few of us who would help subsidize a medically questionable caffeine habit.  :)

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top



sry but can i ask why?
See post #4...if you blow your spot in the retail calender, then you have to wait for the next opening (which would be post-Christmas).

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kyogre12, reply 5



Quoting raduciu,
reply 2
I am moderately sure that february remark was a joke and yes including the "meatgrinder" map is a great ideea i'll love to play it at least for the reason that i had such a big role in defining Elemental's AI,

 

 

 



I don't think it's a joke. It's been mentioned in a couple of dev journals now that if the game is delayed, the release will be early 2011...

Yep, yep. If Froggie won't be able to "finish" [Obviously he will keep enhancing the AI after the release as well] the AI, SD must delay the game. The AI must be good enough in the retail version. It must know all of the basic tactics/strategies. [Ex.: Protect itself against rushing, Use the proper spells when needed etc.] Advanced AI features can wait for the patches imo. [Ex: Use decent counter tactics/strategies]

Reply #23 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ddd888, reply 18

quoting post

The long, hard, scary time consuming feature is the AI.  It’s the one feature that could delay the game beyond August 24th. If the game gets delayed, the alternative release is second week of February.


sry but can i ask why?

i mean its some kind of internal joke?

otherwise how is it possible that cant be delayed just 2 months or 3 or 1? i mean if you now think its possible to finish 24th august if you are wrong you should be wrong by a small margin, isnt it?

im kinda confused about this gap

or you just want to avoid the exit of civ? that would be wise btw

Retail shelf space.  Publishers buy space on the shelves ahead of time.  If you miss August (a slot they've already bought), you're in AAA fall release season or Christmas, and all the slots have been bought, or cost far too much to be worth it.  At least, that's what I would infer from previous statements.

Reply #24 from Demigod Forums Top

sry but can i ask why?

Retail shelf space has to be reserved in advance, and the holiday release season is very busy (and thus either much more expensive or requiring even further advance reservation).

Reply #25 from Elemental Forums Top

A very good point you make, Frogboy. Without a smart and challenging AI all the features, pretty graphics, editors, modding....None of it means anything if the game can't play as a "game". Take all the time you need with the AI. Bring in help if need be. Push it back till Feb if need be. We'll be here supporting you and Stardock either way.

Besides, if you push it back till Feb, just think of all the other cool stuff you can cram into the game between Aug and Feb!!! That's an extra 6 Months of features and tweaks and little things that only take 5 or 6 man-hours to produce!!!!

:)