Frogboy Frogboy

The AI Meat Grinder

▼

The AI Meat Grinder

from JoeUser Forums

image

This is a little map I made called “AI meat grinder”. Nothing fancy but it is a good testing ground for the AI in terms of building an economy, managing resources, and finding different ways to play the game.

There are 4 islands. How should the AI get to them? Should it build ships? If it gets the Earth shard, should it raise a land bridge to the others? What about the precious few resources in the world. What if there are no good resources near by? How will it decide who to attack or whether it should be friendly with someone? How should it deal with NPCs? How much should they pay for them?

These are all questions that the AI has to answer and that has been the focus of a lot of my work for the past several weeks. Slowly but surely these things are getting in.  I read in the comments area where people wonder if this or that will get in, usually features that are less than 6 engineering hours to implement.

The long, hard, scary time consuming feature is the AI.  It’s the one feature that could delay the game beyond August 24th. If the game gets delayed, the alternative release is second week of February.  Everything else in the game is relatively straight forward (for instance, winner take all vs. retreating, regardless of what we decide, the solution is less than 5 engineering hours).  By contrast, having the AI intelligently colonize an island is a matter of 60 to 80 engineering hours.  As soon as we decided to have more than 1 land mass in the game, things get a lot more interesting, especially since we don’t have pre-made cities or maps where we can script in what the AI does (ah that would be a nice easy “cheaty” way – have the map editor let me put in AI priority points on maps).

We are thinking of including the meat grinder with the game so that people can actually see the AI do its stuff.

146,327 views 89 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kryo, reply 24

sry but can i ask why?


Retail shelf space has to be reserved in advance, and the holiday release season is very busy (and thus either much more expensive or requiring even further advance reservation).

Understandable.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting BoogieBac, reply 21
sry but can i ask why?

See post #4...if you blow your spot in the retail calender, then you have to wait for the next opening (which would be post-Christmas).

And I suspect given your varied distribution contracts you can't do a "Digital Download Only" version via Impule and wait for a later distribution of the Retail Box Version ala an early European release and a later U.S. release?

Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 25
A very good point you make, Frogboy. Without a smart and challenging AI all the features, pretty graphics, editors, modding....None of it means anything if the game can't play as a "game". Take all the time you need with the AI. Bring in help if need be. Push it back till Feb if need be. We'll be here supporting you and Stardock either way.

Besides, if you push it back till Feb, just think of all the other cool stuff you can cram into the game between Aug and Feb!!! That's an extra 6 Months of features and tweaks and little things that only take 5 or 6 man-hours to produce!!!!


LOL I think thats why they are pushing August. Poor Froggy must be dreading the idea of listening to us try and change the foundation of his game for another 6 months. Even if he is to nice to say it .

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top



By contrast, having the AI intelligently colonize an island is a matter of 60 to 80 engineering hours.  As soon as we decided to have more than 1 land mass in the game, things get a lot more interesting, especially since we don’t have pre-made cities or maps where we can script in what the AI does (ah that would be a nice easy “cheaty” way – have the map editor let me put in AI priority points on maps).

There's nothing wrong with including priority points on the map especially when doing a campaign where all the maps are known, I'd think! I'd certainly do it in my own mods.

Any chance our build of Elemental can start including the python scripts so we can do some tweaking?

Reply #30 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting BoogieBac, reply 21



sry but can i ask why? See post #4...if you blow your spot in the retail calender, then you have to wait for the next opening (which would be post-Christmas).

ah ok sry didnt read

 

but your "spot" with which organization? like the publisher? areny you stardock your own publisher?

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 25
A very good point you make, Frogboy. Without a smart and challenging AI all the features, pretty graphics, editors, modding....None of it means anything if the game can't play as a "game". Take all the time you need with the AI. Bring in help if need be. Push it back till Feb if need be. We'll be here supporting you and Stardock either way.

Besides, if you push it back till Feb, just think of all the other cool stuff you can cram into the game between Aug and Feb!!! That's an extra 6 Months of features and tweaks and little things that only take 5 or 6 man-hours to produce!!!!

Yeah, seconded. Only thing I want to add is: Please, give us a Beta so some of us have something to do...

I had planned to play the beta 2 during this Weekend (I've already convinced my girl to take a trip and go see her parents, this way I could have all the time to play undisturbed, but then, no beta...)

I agree with you guys, without a good Ai theres no game, but what about the Beta? Release a beta so we can give yet more feedback (Especially since Sex is out of my plate this Weekend...) and have something to occupy our minds...

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

LOL I think thats why they are pushing August. Poor Froggy must be dreading the idea of listening to us try and change the foundation of his game for another 6 months. Even if he is to nice to say it .

On the other hand, he is professional ennough to desire and hope to be creating the new Master of Magic. The new StarCraft. The new Portal. The new Half-Life 2. The new KOTOR.

In short, a game that will become a hallmark in the gaming community (at least, PC gaming). A game many people will lookup to as the new standard in 4x game. Probably also a game and a design process the game developping industry will look up to, that will dawn a new era of openness and transparency between game developpers and fanbase.

 

It is my hope too. It is our hope too.

Reply #33 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting kryo, reply 24

sry but can i ask why?
Retail shelf space has to be reserved in advance, and the holiday release season is very busy (and thus either much more expensive or requiring even further advance reservation).

 

by shelf you mean *literaly* the physical place on the store?

you have to PAY a store to keep a room for your product?

 

i was totally unaware (and surprised) of this

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

It's refreshing to see devs being honest about the realities of publishing.  Too many have shipped obviously unfinished products then obfuscated as to why they did so, when it was pretty obvious why (ran out of money, had to meet deadlines imposed by publishers or by marketing reasons such as reserved shelf space, etc.).

A little honesty goes a long way (with adults anyways -- there'll always be some who will still complain).

Given the choices of August or Feb, and that I believe they won't ship Elemental unless it's 'good enough', plus that Elemental will always be a 'work in progress' -- the August date is looking pretty good.

Now stop trolling the boards Frogboy and get back to programming the AI (where's an icon for 'cracking the whip'? :) )

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

If AI's programming is left openly accessible so modders can help improve it post release then it'll end up being good either way.

 

 

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

Now stop trolling the boards Frogboy and get back to programming the AI (where's an icon for 'cracking the whip'? )

:cylon:  

I think a Cylon would qualify best

Reply #37 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nick-Danger, reply 34
It's refreshing to see devs being honest about the realities of publishing.  Too many have shipped obviously unfinished products then obfuscated as to why they did so, when it was pretty obvious why.

Completely agreed. Also though, I think the trend of "Digital Distribution + On-line "Patching" has given some developers the Excuse, the Reason, and the Technology, to fix a product "post release" knowing they are shipping out a "gimped" product before-hand.

Stardock won't do that, nor do they need too. As Frogboy has said many times, and been quite right in saying, they aren't pressed financially like other companies are. They don't need to rush anything to meet someone else's time-frame. Their money comes from other sources.

Quoting Nick-Danger, reply 34
A little honesty goes a long way (with adults anyways -- there'll always be some who will still complain).

Again, Completely Agreed.

You're a smart dude, Nick, and A-Ok in my book.

:thumbsup:  

Reply #38 from Elemental Forums Top

If its going to be Feb, that just makes the game that much better. Time is not my primary concern as long as I get into the beta.

Reply #39 from Elemental Forums Top

Stardock won't do that, nor do they need too. As Frogboy has said many times, and been quite right in saying, they aren't pressed financially like other companies are. They don't need to rush anything to meet someone else's time-frame. Their money comes from other sources.

Correct.  Though, on the other hand, I'm not going to push the release date back for some wizbang new feature that could just as easily be added post-release.  

My main concern is making sure the AI, out of the box, is good.  Everything else is looking pretty good.

Reply #40 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 39

Stardock won't do that, nor do they need too. As Frogboy has said many times, and been quite right in saying, they aren't pressed financially like other companies are. They don't need to rush anything to meet someone else's time-frame. Their money comes from other sources.


Correct.  Though, on the other hand, I'm not going to push the release date back for some wizbang new feature that could just as easily be added post-release.  

My main concern is making sure the AI, out of the box, is good.  Everything else is looking pretty good.

Very true and well understood. I doubt anyone wants to see the game get delayed or pushed back, and especially not for some small feature no matter how "cool" it might be. Little things and features can always be added and modded whenever. The AI can't be patched in later. Take your time oh wise master of the AI. We understand.

:)

I have to say though, I disagree with you saying "Everything else is looking pretty good.". You should have said...

"Everything else is looking DAMN GOOD."

;)

Reply #41 from Elemental Forums Top

My main concern is making sure the AI, out of the box, is good. Everything else is looking pretty good.

Well, the AI and the core gameplay. But the alpha game took care of creating a fun gameplay, didn't it?

Reply #42 from Elemental Forums Top

"We are thinking of including the meat grinder with the game so that people can actually see the AI do its stuff."

I would love to see that, though it would probably give the human players an unfair advantage.  Normally the players have to infer the way that the computer is executing its strategies by watching the computer actions from within the game.  If I could see what the computer is doing, in detail, it would make it that much easier for my human brain to analyze its weaknesses.  On the other hand, it's a great way to help demonstrate that the computer really isn't cheating and that, yes, it's consistently wiping me off the face of the world by making better moves.  This is what's particularly humbling about AIs in games like chess, where there's absolutely no doubt that the computer is just plain smarter than you, at least when it comes to the game.  I would love to have that same sort of feeling playing Elemental.

Reply #43 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd rather have better AI overall than islands in oceans. 2 work weeks spent on AI development to get it to colonize an island sounds like a long time.

Reply #44 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, the AI and the core gameplay. But the alpha game took care of creating a fun gameplay, didn't it?

Yea, the beta 1 phase has turned out to be even more crucial than we had thought it would be when we first set it up.

I wonder how many people remember what the game was going to be like originally.  The enhanced design is just so much more enjoyable to play.

One example: Recruitable NPCs were not in the original design. That came from the forums. The original battle system didn't include morale.  We originally railed against having different types of damage (fire damage, pierce damage, etc.) but now every weapon includes its damage type. There's just so much stuff that got put on the list and has gotten into the game.

It'll be interesting to see the reaction to beta 2. It'll be buggy I'm sure but it'll be a night and day difference.

Reply #45 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 44

Well, the AI and the core gameplay. But the alpha game took care of creating a fun gameplay, didn't it?


Yea, the beta 1 phase has turned out to be even more crucial than we had thought it would be when we first set it up.

I wonder how many people remember what the game was going to be like originally.  The enhanced design is just so much more enjoyable to play.

One example: Recruitable NPCs were not in the original design. That came from the forums. The original battle system didn't include morale.  We originally railed against having different types of damage (fire damage, pierce damage, etc.) but now every weapon includes its damage type. There's just so much stuff that got put on the list and has gotten into the game.

It'll be interesting to see the reaction to beta 2. It'll be buggy I'm sure but it'll be a night and day difference.

Mundane damage types (pierce, slash, blunt, etc.)? Yay!  And about morale, are you locked into high, normal, low, flee?  Because a sliding system would be a lot better, if you implement the current plan, I forsee cookie-cutter strategies: get exactly enough morale to get into the desired catagory.  And what if you just barely fit into normal instead of high?  You shouldn't have a signifigantly inferior army because of one percentage point.

Reply #46 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 44

...

I wonder how many people remember what the game was going to be like originally.  The enhanced design is just so much more enjoyable to play.

One example: Recruitable NPCs were not in the original design. That came from the forums. The original battle system didn't include morale.  We originally railed against having different types of damage (fire damage, pierce damage, etc.) but now every weapon includes its damage type. There's just so much stuff that got put on the list and has gotten into the game.

It'll be interesting to see the reaction to beta 2. It'll be buggy I'm sure but it'll be a night and day difference.

This truly is great news!  All these feature mentioned are very nice to have!

... Where is "the list"?  By any chance we can see it?

Reply #47 from JoeUser Forums Top

If not this particular map, it might be helpful to have a single "baseline" map by which we can benchmark AI changes.  Since modders will also be creating/modifying AIs, it would be nice for the community as a whole to have a common frame of reference.

Instead of "handles ships better", you can point to a savegame and show how it handles ships better.

Reply #48 from Elemental Forums Top

Why only August or Februrary? No middle ground?

Edit: I leaped before I looked, but now I know. I didn't realize about booking the retail space, and now it makes sense.

Just as a curiosity, what is to stop a company from selling their product several months earlier online than its available to retail? Or would retails be less likely to allow you to buy shelf space after its already been several months on the market?

OR ... is it to maximize initial launch (equal opportunity to buy the game/ maximize launch profits/ keep the media happy by not deflating your launch numbers by launching online) -> all so that people will be more happy with a "full launch" as opposed to a little launch here + a little launch there ... as well as so people don't think OMG horrible! because it didn't "do well" on launch because of the DD market only.

similar to Box Office opening weekend sales vs the rest of the weekends that people care less about? :)

Reply #50 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bill_Door, reply 45

Quoting Frogboy, reply 44
Well, the AI and the core gameplay. But the alpha game took care of creating a fun gameplay, didn't it?


Yea, the beta 1 phase has turned out to be even more crucial than we had thought it would be when we first set it up.

I wonder how many people remember what the game was going to be like originally.  The enhanced design is just so much more enjoyable to play.

One example: Recruitable NPCs were not in the original design. That came from the forums. The original battle system didn't include morale.  We originally railed against having different types of damage (fire damage, pierce damage, etc.) but now every weapon includes its damage type. There's just so much stuff that got put on the list and has gotten into the game.

It'll be interesting to see the reaction to beta 2. It'll be buggy I'm sure but it'll be a night and day difference.

Mundane damage types (pierce, slash, blunt, etc.)? Yay!  And about morale, are you locked into high, normal, low, flee?  Because a sliding system would be a lot better, if you implement the current plan, I forsee cookie-cutter strategies: get exactly enough morale to get into the desired catagory.  And what if you just barely fit into normal instead of high?  You shouldn't have a signifigantly inferior army because of one percentage point.

 

I think High, Normal, Low, Panic is fine ... and I ALSO agree that a slider would be cool for DETERMINING what the morale state of a unit is. Say, highly trained units start with 90 morale points, a regular dude starts with 70 morale points, champions start with 100 morale points, and legendary creatures (and Sovereigns) start with 120 morale points. Maybe conscripts or slaves start with 45 morale points.

If the morale points drop below 75, then a units morale drops from high to normal. If a units morale drops below 50 points then its morale drops from normal to low. If a units morale drops below 25 then it hits panic, and the morale keeps dropping one point per turn of panic.

Perhaps a Champion or Sovereign could have an ability called "rally cry" that increases nearby allies (within 5 tiles?) morale by 50, however it cannot increase an ally's morale above 80.

Depending on how damaged a unit gets, its morale could drop by 1 or 5 in a given turn, or if it gets flanked (even pre-attacked). For instance, having an opponent at your flank reduces morale by 1, and at your rear reduces morale by 2. Being attacked on your flank (regardless of damage) harms your morale by 4, and being attacked by the rear reduces your morale by 8. There are, of course, certain units that are immune to the morale effects of flanking, but not immune (probably) to the increased damage that flanking causes.

Also, being attacked (in general) always reduces morale by 2 (at least) ... and some spells can raise or lower morale (points). A "scary animal" reduces opponent's morale by 1 for every turn he is in hypothetical striking distance. and his attacks inflict double morale penalty (so 4 morale for a frontal assault, 8 morale for a flank, and 16 morale for a rear assault).

So, lets say every time you are within 10 tiles (or so) of this scary unit you lose 1 morale point per turn ... and if there are two of them you lose 2 morale points per turn.

Something like that. Of course, there are certain units that are immune to the effects of scary units.