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The Kingdoms vs. The Empires

The Kingdoms vs. The Empires

BG22_Fire For beta testers, only the Kingdoms have been exposed.  The Kingdoms play much like a traditional 4X game.  You build city improvements to get benefits to your city. You train up soldiers hoping they’ll get better and better. It is a civilization based on laws and rules.

The Empire has taken a different path…

In War

Their soldiers don’t gain experience. Such a concept of thinking about individual soldiers is anathema to the Empire.

As such, there is no such thing as a veteran Imperial soldier. However, they can train up special, powerful units (Guardians, Enforcers, and Sions).  These powerful individuals will routinely demonstrate the inherent flaw in trying to train groups of soldiers to be more effective. Greatness is born. Not learned.

In Peace

There is no tradition of civics in the Empire. Moreover, the concept of bee keeping or fruit orchard harvesting and what not is completely foreign. The Empire looks at the Kingdoms with absolute contempt that they would waste time harvesting such things.

Of course, it also means the Empires can harvest fewer special resources in the world. To make up for this, the Empire can build hog farms adjacent to their farms. That’s real food. Pathetic Kingdoms.

The Empire also scoffs at the Civics concepts of markets. Deals are made on the basis of leverage alone. Instead of relying on institutions, the Empire relies on leaders of capitalism to deal with it. Players can build Financiers (until we have a better name, feel free to suggest a better one) who enhance the city’s money making.

Similarly, there is no formal education system in the Empire. Schools? Universities? These concepts are worthless. The Kingdoms foolishly entrust their futures to special interests. In the Empire, players can create Sage units who can be sent where they are needed to boost knowledge production.

There are no pubs in the Empire. No Inns.  Such decadence is forbidden. Prestige is generated by showing respect to those who have seized power such as statues to great figures such as Lord Kir-Tion and Curgen the Dred’nir.

In Magic

Again, letting something as important as magic be taught by a special interest is another weakness of the Kingdom that the Empire has no part of. The Empire instead has its own magic commissars – the Lore masters who study the ancient texts to discover the correct spells needed to dominate the world. These units can be built and sent where needed.

Adventuring? I don’t think so

The Kingdoms have an entire knowledge field called “Adventuring”. There is no such concept in The Empire. Adventuring implies a light hearted search for excitement. This is why the Empire has dominated the world, it has no use for pointless wandering.

The Empires focus on Domination. Finding and re-learning knowledge scattered throughout the world. 

The Kingdoms, dominated by cowardly men, like to stay in their schools and temples. The Empire, dominated by the races of the Fallen and the lone race of men with the strength to embrace the philosophy of the Empires (Kraxis) gain knowledge and strength from going out into the world and seizing it from others. Dangerous places have great knowledge and the Empire is particularly skilled in finding that knowledge.

The Empire will rule

The fact is, the Empires are the dominant form of social organization in the world. The Kingdoms, with their weak, so-called concepts of liberty, social contracts and obsession with the rights of individuals is an absurd, artificial creation that violates the laws of nature.

361,266 views 211 replies
Reply #76 Top

Given the nature of the Empires' culture you could take a proverbial left turn and call financiers something like "enforcers" with the traditional mafia protection racket coming to mind. "You owe me money" *draws a big, nasty axe*...

 

Or if they work for the soverign directly you could call them "Oi, you, peasant" lol.

 

I also love what you're doing with the empires.

Reply #77 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 60
Meat farms has promise.

Heh, I like this one. :D

Quoting Nero_zero, reply 73
I like the Vizier name, suitably archaic.

Yeah, Vizier sounds proper indeed.

Reply #79 Top

The Empire will rule

The fact is, the Empires are the dominant form of social organization in the world. The Kingdoms, with their weak, so-called concepts of liberty, social contracts and obsession with the rights of individuals is an absurd, artificial creation that violates the laws of nature.

I'm sorry guys but I think this might be a step in the wrong direction.

I find this description of the empire a bit generic tbh. It seems like some crass imagining of the Soviet Union in a Fantasy setting -or maybe that's just the "magic comissars".

I appreciate that this is an early imagining or sketch of the Empires but it seems quite implausible... How does the empire train units -and then prevent them learning more? How does the empire rely on strong individuals, when it seems like the individual (in its society) is subsumed in the multitude? How does it sustain its oppression and "evil", when such a system would presumably cause massive rebellion? Why is the empire so evil in the first place? What advantages does this bring to the leaders -and at what cost?

I had previously been very encouraged by the flexibilty and subtlety of the customisation available to factions/civilisations in the betas, this seems like a step in a different direction and could be a bit of a let down. 

Reply #80 Top

Quoting Outlaw, reply 72

Quoting Frogboy, reply 20I like that. Guildsmen. I also like Magistrate or something too.
How about Magnate?

–noun
1.
a person of great influence, importance, or standing in a particular enterprise, field of business, etc.: a railroad magnate.

:thumbsup:   (though I made the same suggestion back on page 1 :) )

 

Vizer is a good one too.

Reply #82 Top

Quoting Anomander, reply 74

quoting postIn War
Their soldiers don’t gain experience. Such a concept of thinking about individual soldiers is anathema to the Empire.
As such, there is no such thing as a veteran Imperial soldier. However, they can train up special, powerful units (Guardians, Enforcers, and Sions).  These powerful individuals will routinely demonstrate the inherent flaw in trying to train groups of soldiers to be more effective. Greatness is born. Not learned.
Hmmmm not too happy with this concept. Every Empire in Human history had its veteran (elite) units. From Rome to Great Britain, and more recently the declining Empire of the USA has its 'elite' veteran units. I see you are suggesting that 'special units' will be in, but common units dont gain experience? Well thats plain wrong!

Combat always gives experience, whether your a Soldier of a kingdom or a very very small component of the Imperial machine.

It sounds to me as though you are shoe-horning in a game balance... and it doesn't quite fit.

 

I agree.  Not training units sounds fine to me and fits the lore, but success in battle should lead to improvement.

Reply #83 Top

Suggestion for the financiers:

I think Guildsmen sounds a bit too "empower the tradesman" for the empire.  Vizier is pretty good, but traditionally that role involved a much more comprehensive scope than finances.

I'd like to put forth Usurer.  With all it's lovely "exploit the weak" connotations.  :)

Reply #84 Top

Well, its not like in olden times it was uncommon for the nobility to sleep around with the peasantry.  Perhaps your standard soldiers accrue experiance that never actually improves their stats, but increases their odds that they have noble blood.  If the entire idea behind the empire is blood lines create power, then discovering a bastard descendent of some long-ago ruler would be another way for the Empire enforce the idea of greatness through birth while also gaining experianced units through combat. 

So, from a mechanics stand point, at the end of every battle, every unit has some miniscule chance of being discovered as being from some historical figure's blood line, or having the blood of one of the special Fallen units.  As that unit survives more battles and gets more kills, the odds go up.  When they are recognized as being special, they change from whatever generic unit type they are to another unit type called something like "The Gifted."  The Gifted would then accrue experiance like a standard Kingdom soldier.  This would create an elite warrior class in between your hordes of peasants and your special units you intentionally breed.

Reply #86 Top

Quoting Juvantei, reply 85
Sorry, greatness is MADE not born.  Fail.

Was that really necessary? <_<

Reply #87 Top

Quoting GW, reply 47

Financiers = Thug
Thugs sound like underlings for Gildarherds/Factors/Whatevers. If I pretend to be a member of the Serious Party, I rather like Factor. It has a nice top note of productivity, but the finish is solidly flavored with the Latin root notion of a "made thing."


Facilitator perhaps?
Maybe if there's a Notably Silly faction amongst the Empires. Or maybe a strong overall tendency to sarcasm amongst the Krax

LOL!

Actually, I was more thinking along the lines of.

"One who contributes structure and process to interactions so groups are able to function effectively and make high-quality decisions."

Reply #88 Top

Quoting Juvantei, reply 85
Sorry, greatness is MADE not born.  Fail.

Thats what the Kingdoms with their lies and propaganda want you to think.

Reply #89 Top

Quoting Grimgravy, reply 82

I agree.  Not training units sounds fine to me and fits the lore, but success in battle should lead to improvement.

A "veteran" soldier on the Kingdom side is trained. When training the soldier, once you unlock veteran training you can pick it as an option, and you spend extra time to get stronger troops.

That's the option the Empire doesn't have. Presumably if some kind of unit XP system comes in, both factions will get it.

Reply #90 Top

Vizier is a fun word, but does imply a much broader portfolio than a Chancellor of the Exchequer. If there are governor roles for Empire nobles, some might factions might call them Viziers, others Satraps. I'm still liking Factor for the money specialist.

One more Silly possibility for the Financier's street name: The Visible Hand.

Reply #91 Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 89

That's the option the Empire doesn't have. Presumably if some kind of unit XP system comes in, both factions will get it.

We don't know the details, but I am not sure about this. Even tho it would make no sense if the units of the Empire wouldn't gain battlefield XP.

Reply #92 Top

Quoting Thiryn, reply 28
Some possible alternate titles for Financiers:

Exchequer

Magnate

Chancellor

Vassal

Auditor

Chamberlain

Treasurer

Financial Overseer

I really like Auditor. Sounds like someone who is trying to scrape every last coin out of the populace. Magnate is another good one. It has the 'ruthless captain of industry' feel that may fit better with the description given.

Reply #93 Top

Hi,  

After reading that the empire will have units instead of buildings the first thing that popped in my mind is unit upkeep.  

How will the difference between city (building upkeep) vs. Unit up keep differ?  Will these city units be categorized in differently than army units.  Will the general building upkeep for Kingdom mechanic be the same but just renamed for Empire?

Thanks,

Reply #94 Top

Quoting Grimgravy, reply 82

Quoting Anomander, reply 74
quoting postIn War
Their soldiers don’t gain experience. Such a concept of thinking about individual soldiers is anathema to the Empire.
As such, there is no such thing as a veteran Imperial soldier. However, they can train up special, powerful units (Guardians, Enforcers, and Sions).  These powerful individuals will routinely demonstrate the inherent flaw in trying to train groups of soldiers to be more effective. Greatness is born. Not learned.
Hmmmm not too happy with this concept. Every Empire in Human history had its veteran (elite) units. From Rome to Great Britain, and more recently the declining Empire of the USA has its 'elite' veteran units. I see you are suggesting that 'special units' will be in, but common units dont gain experience? Well thats plain wrong!

Combat always gives experience, whether your a Soldier of a kingdom or a very very small component of the Imperial machine.

It sounds to me as though you are shoe-horning in a game balance... and it doesn't quite fit.
 

I agree.  Not training units sounds fine to me and fits the lore, but success in battle should lead to improvement.

Maybe each unit don't gain experience, but "combat knowledge". You get them back to your cities and breed them with other warrior and voila. New ultimate warrior. Until the next one born from great sacrifices and wars.

So it would be "like" xp, but in another way : you have to play "animal crossing" to get elite warriors :P

Reply #95 Top

Quoting Tormy-, reply 91

We don't know the details, but I am not sure about this. Even tho it would make no sense if the units of the Empire wouldn't gain battlefield XP.

Well no, but IIRC there's no unit XP system in the game for standard soldiers right now anyway. Nobody has it. It's the ability to train "veteran" units at a town that the Empire doesn't get, they can train better unique units instead.

Reply #96 Top

I wonder how Rome would have advanced without its experienced and veteran legions?

Reply #97 Top

I find this idea interesting (outside the box thinking I like). I am however concerned on how this would affect game balance. For instance if the kingdom relies on its buildings in order to advance in the game, and the Empire uses its units to achieve what buildings do for the kingdom then such "nomadic" units that double as buildings would seem to have the advantage in many fronts for they have with in themselves(the army) the ability to advance while conquering with nothing to defend but themselves (which this is not a bad concept in itself if it is well thought out and balanced). One other thing I think will be complicated the "marriage of on with the other under the same sovereign", also if one wanted to defect from one to another how would that be handled?

Anyway my two "cents" lol. This is what I find very promising  about Elemental "willingness to try things outside the norm" even if it does not pan out to be all that was meant to be it may lead to something totally new and fresh and fun!

Reply #98 Top

Quoting Anomander, reply 96
I wonder how Rome would have advanced without its experienced and veteran legions?

With terrifying Edars, born for battle with claws that rend cured bouilli like butter and teeth sharper than the best bronze gladius.

Well If the Empire had anything to do with it ^.^

Reply #99 Top

Quoting Anomander, reply 96
I wonder how Rome would have advanced without its experienced and veteran legions?

Two ways:

1) The same way Sparta advanced: by not having "green" troops at all.

2) The way Athens fought: use master strategists and geniuses. Out-maneuver them and incinerate their ships with the focused power of the sun, respectively.

Reply #100 Top

The Empire has buildings too. Just not as many.