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The Kingdoms vs. The Empires

The Kingdoms vs. The Empires

BG22_Fire For beta testers, only the Kingdoms have been exposed.  The Kingdoms play much like a traditional 4X game.  You build city improvements to get benefits to your city. You train up soldiers hoping they’ll get better and better. It is a civilization based on laws and rules.

The Empire has taken a different path…

In War

Their soldiers don’t gain experience. Such a concept of thinking about individual soldiers is anathema to the Empire.

As such, there is no such thing as a veteran Imperial soldier. However, they can train up special, powerful units (Guardians, Enforcers, and Sions).  These powerful individuals will routinely demonstrate the inherent flaw in trying to train groups of soldiers to be more effective. Greatness is born. Not learned.

In Peace

There is no tradition of civics in the Empire. Moreover, the concept of bee keeping or fruit orchard harvesting and what not is completely foreign. The Empire looks at the Kingdoms with absolute contempt that they would waste time harvesting such things.

Of course, it also means the Empires can harvest fewer special resources in the world. To make up for this, the Empire can build hog farms adjacent to their farms. That’s real food. Pathetic Kingdoms.

The Empire also scoffs at the Civics concepts of markets. Deals are made on the basis of leverage alone. Instead of relying on institutions, the Empire relies on leaders of capitalism to deal with it. Players can build Financiers (until we have a better name, feel free to suggest a better one) who enhance the city’s money making.

Similarly, there is no formal education system in the Empire. Schools? Universities? These concepts are worthless. The Kingdoms foolishly entrust their futures to special interests. In the Empire, players can create Sage units who can be sent where they are needed to boost knowledge production.

There are no pubs in the Empire. No Inns.  Such decadence is forbidden. Prestige is generated by showing respect to those who have seized power such as statues to great figures such as Lord Kir-Tion and Curgen the Dred’nir.

In Magic

Again, letting something as important as magic be taught by a special interest is another weakness of the Kingdom that the Empire has no part of. The Empire instead has its own magic commissars – the Lore masters who study the ancient texts to discover the correct spells needed to dominate the world. These units can be built and sent where needed.

Adventuring? I don’t think so

The Kingdoms have an entire knowledge field called “Adventuring”. There is no such concept in The Empire. Adventuring implies a light hearted search for excitement. This is why the Empire has dominated the world, it has no use for pointless wandering.

The Empires focus on Domination. Finding and re-learning knowledge scattered throughout the world. 

The Kingdoms, dominated by cowardly men, like to stay in their schools and temples. The Empire, dominated by the races of the Fallen and the lone race of men with the strength to embrace the philosophy of the Empires (Kraxis) gain knowledge and strength from going out into the world and seizing it from others. Dangerous places have great knowledge and the Empire is particularly skilled in finding that knowledge.

The Empire will rule

The fact is, the Empires are the dominant form of social organization in the world. The Kingdoms, with their weak, so-called concepts of liberty, social contracts and obsession with the rights of individuals is an absurd, artificial creation that violates the laws of nature.

361,303 views 211 replies
Reply #26 Top

As such, there is no such thing as a veteran Imperial soldier. However, they can train up special, powerful units (Guardians, Enforcers, and Sions). These powerful individuals will routinely demonstrate the inherent flaw in trying to train groups of soldiers to be more effective. Greatness is born. Not learned.

Now that's a major philosophical difference I can get behind! It's cool to know that there's actually a major point where the views of the kingdoms and the empires are just downright incompatible. That's a a very specific, "deep" philosophical difference, and not just a painted on "cosmetic" difference, like unit color or whether they prefer their Loggers over Woodsmen.

And it's original! Usually the difference is Pastoral Paradise vs Industrial Slum, kind of overdone!

Good writing!

Reply #27 Top

Brad,

Recommend changing pig farms into cattle farms or perhaps a made up beastie. While it may not seem important, the "pig farm" has been done to death already in other games, and perhaps more importantly there are populations on this planet who have an aversion to pork and pork products. Not saying that inclusion will have an impact on future sales, but it should be a consideration. I find it humerous that people will limit themselves to such an extent, but billions do and it obvioulsy plays a significant part in their lives.

The kingdom cities are limited to "n" of some building types in a single city, will empire cities be limited to "n" uber "x" production units per city as well, or will a different mechanic be in play for balance?

Darvroth

Reply #28 Top

Some possible alternate titles for Financiers:

Exchequer

Magnate

Chancellor

Vassal

Auditor

Chamberlain

Treasurer

Financial Overseer

Reply #29 Top

Quoting Raven, reply 10



That's true, But, the Kingdoms don't %100 Have To Concentrate on War. The Kingdoms can "Win" through Diplomacy and forming Alliances, it can win through Magical Research, I'm sure there are other ways a Kingdom faction can win as well, Without NEEDING to Rely On Warfare. That's all I'm afraid of. I don't want the Empire Factions to HAVE TO RELY on nothing but Warfare as that seems very limiting.

This is a concern, but I would be quite surprised if it turns out that the Empires cannot win by any other means than by conquest. I'm guessing that the references to building units that can perform the same tasks as the kingdoms buildings will mean that they will be able to win in all the same ways, at least hopefully. Just a different way to get there. I do hope that the two sides can maybe win in different ways, with empire or kingdom specific ways to achieve victory.

Reply #30 Top

How about both pork and cattle farms?

Reply #31 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 20
I like that. Guildsmen. I also like Magistrate or something too.

Guildsmen sounds like another one of those namby-pamby social systems the Kingdoms like, and Magistrate is entirely tangled up with notions of justice, or at least law.

Something about the pig farms makes me think that a Financier ought to be called a Gildarherd. Or something else suitably contemptuous of economic exchange. After all, the only respectable wealth in the Empires is what you've taken by force, yes?

Reply #32 Top

I think the Empires could win by Domination. Not every empire needs to invade: some just use cultural domination to subjugate their neighbors. (Actually, this is pretty funny: it's hard to imagine France suddenly annexing the city of another nation because of their superior wines. It's pretty easy to imagine China doing it. Yet Civilization insists on exactly that.)

Reply #33 Top

Quoting Susarian, reply 22
Let's see...bad guy money name....here we go!

Moneylender

Money changer

Debt collector

Factors [from our friends in Medici Bank (1397–1494)]

 

 

I like that avatar!!!

 

An all too often overlooked movie.

Reply #34 Top

Quoting Darvroth, reply 27
...there are populations on this planet who have an aversion to pork and pork products. Not saying that inclusion will have an impact on future sales, but it should be a consideration. I find it humerous that people will limit themselves to such an extent, but billions do and it obvioulsy plays a significant part in their lives.

Cool! Next thing, you'll come and say we should remove women in the game because these same 'populations' don't give them any rights?

Fundamentalists are already wrecking our world; let's not let them wreck our games too! >:(

(and they won't buy it anyway)

Reply #35 Top

Some of the FFH civs do have different game mechanics.  One of the dwarven civs has its happiness tied to its treasury.  Another civ was limited to only 4 cities but they were super cities.  There's a vampire civ I never played, but you basically fed off your city's population.  That sort of thing.

Those are some great distinctions. FFH = FTW. Awesome stuff.

Reply #36 Top

Quoting Nero_zero, reply 29

Quoting Raven X, reply 10


That's true, But, the Kingdoms don't %100 Have To Concentrate on War. The Kingdoms can "Win" through Diplomacy and forming Alliances, it can win through Magical Research, I'm sure there are other ways a Kingdom faction can win as well, Without NEEDING to Rely On Warfare. That's all I'm afraid of. I don't want the Empire Factions to HAVE TO RELY on nothing but Warfare as that seems very limiting.

This is a concern, but I would be quite surprised if it turns out that the Empires cannot win by any other means than by conquest. I'm guessing that the references to building units that can perform the same tasks as the kingdoms buildings will mean that they will be able to win in all the same ways, at least hopefully. Just a different way to get there. I do hope that the two sides can maybe win in different ways, with empire or kingdom specific ways to achieve victory.

 

Perhaps the Empires will have a different view of diplomacy in a similiar fashion as to how they have 'domination' instead of 'adventuring.' Perhaps they would view diplomacy as 'assimilation' or something to that effect.

 

Reply #37 Top


 Players can build Financiers (until we have a better name, feel free to suggest a better one) who enhance the city’s money making.

Robber Baron

Imperial Coin Lord

Grand Broker

Master of Treasures

Principal Economist

Executor of Finance *New*

I'm partial to Robber Baron or Executor of Finance personally.

Reply #39 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 20
I like that. Guildsmen. I also like Magistrate or something too.

Those are both great names. Maybe use "Guildsmen" for the Financiers and use "Magistrate" for Empire governors or a more powerful version of "Sages" or something?

Reply #40 Top

"As such, there is no such thing as a veteran Imperial soldier. However, they can train up special, powerful units (Guardians, Enforcers, and Sions).  These powerful individuals will routinely demonstrate the inherent flaw in trying to train groups of soldiers to be more effective. Greatness is born. Not learned."

-Whoa!The Empire are, like, fundamentalist eugenicists!!

Really enjoyed this lore - best I've read on Elemental yet! - Plus I agree with the earlier guy, there's black-market story potential: there'd be, like, loads of little groups of Empire-folk creeping off to dingy backstreet bars for an elicit pint... :D

Reply #41 Top

Its STEAM!!! :p  (the Empire)

Reply #42 Top

Executor or Factor seem to have a good overlordish ring to them

Reply #43 Top

Well it been a long while since i last posted anything (six months i think). While some of you do have justified worries about the Fallen seemingly having only one option to win is through warfare i can see other options for winning that our lovers of things evil would relish.

1.) vassalage: the fallen don't need to gain X number of allies but are instead replaced with the concept of protectorates or vassals (meaning when you go to war your subjugated kingdoms/empires have to go to war with rival faction as well). other bonuses could include a tribute tax, automatic passage through a vassal's territory and full trade, and potential others. the downsides with this is it can be a little trickier to force a faction to become your vassal and then maintain this one sided alliance (equal to or more powerful factions should naturally at first refuse to become vassals); vassals don't break alliances they REVOLT!; and lastly you, partially, have to protect your vassals from attacks by rival factions.

2.) Black Market (for lack of a better name): here you don't dominate by controlling the most resources but by being the sneakiest, under-handed, most cunning bastard. Who cares if a rival has access to more vital resources than you; you can get all you need or want through intimidation, piracy, smuggling, extortion, bribes, people not reading the fine print, and good oldfashioned scavenging.

These would reqiure more machiavellism than normal but i think would more gratifying.

Reply #44 Top

Financiers = Thug :P

Reply #45 Top

The Fall from Heaven mod is a great mod but from what I remember, each faction doesn't have completely different game mechanics.

To develop a little bit, ALL civs play VERY differently:

Some dwarves get happiness and production bonuses for hoarding lots of gold.

The other dwarves build units that... don't get experience (sorry for you, Empires, idea already done ;) ). That is unless ONE unique unit (Barnaxus) earns experience. Plus they have a building that allows their units (golems) to breathe fire.

There are vampires out there, who can eat the population of their cities to earn experience, and have a breeding pit building for some reason.

The Grigori have their own Great People, the Adventurers, who tend to become powerhouses. But they don't have the unique heroes each other civ has.

The Bannor get their own civic which allows them to mass conscript some units.

The Sheaim can build buildings that summon more and more powerful devils to serve them as they increase the Armageddon counter (so as they destroy the world, they become stronger).

Elves can build stuff (like cottages) in forests without removing the forests. But they don't mine much.

The Doviello are great for rushing but weak afterwards.

The Clan is the barbarians' friend.

Aurric Ulvin's nation can turn terrain into snow and their leader into a freaking god.

There's also that empire which is limited in the number of cities he can build, but has huge, sprawling cities, and a few small outposts where he can't build much.

Hell, so many things I can't remember them all right now. If you havent' played for a while, Brad, you should take a week off developping Elemental and play FfHII to death for that time. Same for your team. There is a LOT to be learnt therein, if only what should be made possible for modders.

Reply #46 Top

Facilitator perhaps?

This is good news. Lots of potential. Would allow for the different land types (Swamps, Forests, Plains etc.) to be integrated as part of the Empires over-all feel, vs the Kingdoms who seem to aspire to higher values through ethics, Learning, Diplomacy and higher Education.

One question though?

"In the Empire, players can create Sage units who can be sent where they are needed to boost knowledge production."

What does the "can be sent" mean exactly? Does it mean that there are limited "places/cities" that can produce these "special" archetypes and they must then be dispersed to "other places/cities" in order to enhance, grant bonuses within those places

 

Reply #47 Top

Financiers = Thug

Thugs sound like underlings for Gildarherds/Factors/Whatevers. If I pretend to be a member of the Serious Party, I rather like Factor. It has a nice top note of productivity, but the finish is solidly flavored with the Latin root notion of a "made thing."

Facilitator perhaps?

Maybe if there's a Notably Silly faction amongst the Empires. Or maybe a strong overall tendency to sarcasm amongst the Krax ;)

Reply #48 Top

Players can build Financiers (until we have a better name, feel free to suggest a better one) who enhance the city’s money making.

How about something evil, like 'slave pits' (if it's a building) or 'slavers' (if it's a unit)?

Reply #49 Top

Quoting LDiCesare, reply 45

The Fall from Heaven mod is a great mod but from what I remember, each faction doesn't have completely different game mechanics.


To develop a little bit, ALL civs play VERY differently:

Some dwarves get happiness and production bonuses for hoarding lots of gold.

The other dwarves build units that... don't get experience (sorry for you, Empires, idea already done ). That is unless ONE unique unit (Barnaxus) earns experience. Plus they have a building that allows their units (golems) to breathe fire.

There are vampires out there, who can eat the population of their cities to earn experience, and have a breeding pit building for some reason.

The Grigori have their own Great People, the Adventurers, who tend to become powerhouses. But they don't have the unique heroes each other civ has.

The Bannor get their own civic which allows them to mass conscript some units.

The Sheaim can build buildings that summon more and more powerful devils to serve them as they increase the Armageddon counter (so as they destroy the world, they become stronger).

Elves can build stuff (like cottages) in forests without removing the forests. But they don't mine much.

The Doviello are great for rushing but weak afterwards.

The Clan is the barbarians' friend.

Aurric Ulvin's nation can turn terrain into snow and their leader into a freaking god.

There's also that empire which is limited in the number of cities he can build, but has huge, sprawling cities, and a few small outposts where he can't build much.

Hell, so many things I can't remember them all right now. If you havent' played for a while, Brad, you should take a week off developping Elemental and play FfHII to death for that time. Same for your team. There is a LOT to be learnt therein, if only what should be made possible for modders.

Yeah FFH is definitaly one of the best mods ever made for a TBS, but I have some serious problems with the game engine itself. -> Basically the "magery"/spellsystem is a joke. No tactical combat, only some crappy RNG based stuff. Imo FFH2 is a decent mod, but it's been created for a "bad" game engine. Bad = bad for a real fantasy TBS. This is why AoW 2 & SM, Dominions 3 or even MoM >>>> FFH2 in my book of magic. ;)

Reply #50 Top

Quoting TCores, reply 30
How about both pork and cattle farms?

 

How about "Meat Farms" :)