To be clear, most of my anger was directed at the lack of willingness to engage in a civil discussion.  A lost of my flame rants stem from that.  I see it as an attack on someone's intelligence or a self-rightious attitude, both of which are offensive.

Again, I'll drop it, or discuss it with people who wish to.

If you do wish to discuss it, go back to where the topic started (1-2 pages ago) and read what's been said first.

Punching through steel I believe would be a form of magic, but is also doable without magic.  (Not trying to shoot you down, Skidi, I do believe what you've told us to be actual magic.  I can't see a hand breaking steel any other way)

But i'll grant Whiskey a point there, just to move on.

Explain someone being knocked unconcious from 20 feet away?

-Twilight Storm | My life for the Dahkri | Prove it

Occam's Razor. The simplest and most workable answer is the truth. Thus, it was a setup.

"A suspicious mind is a healthy mind."

a 75+ year old tribal shaman who never had the benefit of modern medicine punching trough 2in of steel by using his unprotected hand and spiritual power is indeed magic but i agree it may of been a bad example ill think of a good one

you all post to fast

Well, of course it is

Yes, and.....so?

Always expect anything from anyone, but regarding about myself, I never said neither showed that I was a particularly good person. What made you think otherwise?

Hmm...I dont know why you'd think that.

As I already mentioned, I almost never debate over religious stuff. Read my post #1669 if you like. If you want just a casual discussion, then sure, but trying to prove one another wrong over religion, would be the most pointless thing I could ever do, since no religion in the world can be proven 100% right. I understand that you got upset about me mocking your beliefs and everything, its only justified that you did.

Indeed.

Storm: I am unable to discuss whether magic is real or not without making even the slightest hint of mocking to this subject. Thus, you can count me out of this subject, but others seem interested ( whiskey, skidi).

Once again, Occam's Razor. Modern medicine has nothing to do with it, an excellent fitness routine and healthy lifestyle can easily keep someone who is 75 years or older in good physical condition.

However, applying Occam's Razor, I find it more likely that it wasn't steel; maybe something weak plated in a thin layer of steel, but not solid steel.

"A suspicious mind is a healthy mind."

Occams Razor is an acceptable counter-THEORY.  Theories still need verification.  Besides, the proper wording is the simplest explaination is USUALLY the right one, not always.  If you're gonna quote, quote properly please.

Show me one way that it could have been set up and I'll look into it personally and show you my findings.

Scenario: 

Martial Artist Instructor

Spars with student

Student is roughly 20 feet away

Instructor thrusts his palm forward

Student collapses, unconcious

Rule out coated darts of any kind, I believe they were searched for after the demonstration by documentary crew.  (This was around 6 years or so ago, I don't remember where it's from but I'm sure I can find it if I need to.)

-Twilight Storm | My life for the Dahkri | Stand your ground

never heard of Occams Razor'

and yes whiskey it was 2in of steel i smithed it myself

Alright, Morph.  Looks like me and Whiskey are gonna have a go at this.  I'll leave all my religious aspects out as best I can so feel free to join in.

Pro Magic:  Twilight Storm/ Skidiantasa

Neutral:  Altaux(Apparently believes but does not wish to get involved so far, as his his right.)

No Magic:  Morpheas/ Whiskey

Sides are even.  Nobody is required to participate, but please adhere to the followin rules if you wish to participate:

No flame posts from here on out.  Minimal sarcasm is allowed if appropriate, but not intentionally hurtful.

Show evidence and counter that of others.  Religion is strictly banned from this particular discussion.

Additional rules may evolve at any time, but no rules may be made to favor one side over another.

-Twilight Storm | My life for the Dahkri | BEGIN!

Then it's still a setup. I said it like that because the simplest explanation is that the student had some kind of medical problem that caused him to collapse at that exact moment. Or maybe not, but it still serves the demonstration that that solution isn't workable.

Just because the solution is the simplest, doesn't mean it's right. Thus, it should be the simplest workable solution.

Then the only other answer is that he has trained for his entire life in doing this. Thus, not magic. Just because someone does something considered "impossible" by most doesn't automatically mean magic. The Shaman probably believes it to be magic, but really it's just that he's almost certainly trained his entire life to do that kind of thing.

Also, how can you be sure that you "smithed" it flawlessly. How do you know it didn't have some sort of stress point the shaman exploited?

I accept the challenge.

ok here i go...

when i was 12 and i was required to smith my own sword as part of my training all of my left over steel i made into a 2in slab as was custom so it could be stockpiled i remembered the shaman said she punched through steel once and i did not believe her so i brought her the piece of steel and held it up she punched it and knocked me back and it cut up my hands i looked at the steel and it had a large hole right in the middle

Once again, proper physical training in any way shape or form would allow one to accomplish such a feat. 2" of steel isn't as much as some would believe.

Thus, Occam's Razor prevails AGAIN.

"A suspicious mind is a healthy mind."

Alright guys, its 1.15 AM here, I wish I could stay longer.....*yaaaaawn*...

Sometimes I wish I lived in US, so I can follow your timezone...oh well

I'm going to bed, see ya all tomorrow, and Storm, dont forget:

i myself have also trained in magic so has my brother i specialize in charms and wards and physical magic while my brother is good at wards spirit magic altho its hard for me to explain without adding religion so...

Whiskey, given that situation, there was no time to exploit a flaw as (According to Skidi's current relation of how the events transpired) there was no time to examine the slab, and flaws in metal are meticulously difficult to find on the spot like that.  If there were an obvious one, Skidi would have mentioned such(I believe)

We need to clear up our definitions of magic before this continues.

To me, magic is the focussing of Spiritual power.  (Your own, most commonly in my case, but sometimes other spirits as well) to increase your own physical or mental prowess.  Most often achieved through meditation.)

I very rarely will acknowledge large scale shows of power such as throwing a fireball or some other such act, unless I actually see that.  To me, magic is mostly a complete knowledge of one's physical ability, and being able to manipulate your spiritual energy to enhance/compliment that ability.

-Twilight Storm | My life for the Dahkri | Be as one with yourself

heres my list of magic (twilight may remember this)

in the world we belive in three forms of power

spirital-wich draws on your spirit and that of your guardian

phychical-draws upon your own strength

arcane-a source of power traped between worlds the source of all creation

the power can be used in many ways like

spirital

charms- mostly used by shamans and seers charms ward the dark and evil spirits they are also used for simpler tasks such as keeping food supplys safe from vermin

enchantment- by useing the aid of your guardian you are able to enhance objects usualy jewly on jewly it would help protect you when in danger or help your guardian find you in times of need

combat- one is able to use there spirital energy to enhance there fighting asbility by focusing on a punch or blow they are able to drasticly change its power this has been demostrated when the shaman was able to punch through armor

physical

blood magic- one is able to use there blood as offering to call power and evil to the world of the living i do not yet understand it myself because my master avoids the subject

combat-as above but insted of your spirtial energy you push you body to extreme limits usualy only used when in greate danger altho it is limited to the users own physical limits

arcane

not much here i have yet to study this school it is only taught to the seers and shamans but from what i understand the user is able to call the power of the gods for healing of aid

i only listed the one i have studyed

With the proper meditation I have been able to divine the coming of a storm in the past and relieve the pain of myself and others.  I'm also highly empathic to those around me(Yeah, you may not think this is magic but I do.)

My belief in magic can be summed up in the magical aspect of Wicca.

Any of you ever heard of Stav?  (The form of martial arts/magic practice I mentioned)  I didn't get a comment on that one.  It's something I'ma look into sometime soon.

-Twilight Storm | My life for the Dahkri

Ah its already started...well im feeling particuarly lazy today so im not reading your alls posts yet >.> (well i read some) but people can be taught to go into a state of semi death or become unconcious as you said which could easily explain the martial artist then (not  saying it was a hoax but without proof i dont believe most things) although im not saying magic can't be real as stranger things have happened. (plz dont take offense for I mean none to anyone in any way with this post just stating some facts and opinions)

The offense stage is over on this topic Shiro so you're good.  Addmitedly, I hadn't thought of that possibility.  I'll look that up at some point.

We still need Morpheas, and Whiskey to give their definitions of magic for this to continue.  As well as others who wish to join.

-Twilight Storm | My life for the Dahkri | Do you believe in magic?

Now THIS will be a wondrous observation. I'll join in after definitions are made clear.

Like I said. Its impossible to believe in God and not believe in the spiritual. But I want nothing to do with your magic this and that so I  am out here before Whiskey starts burning all the heretics. lol

If you seek to join, definitions are required from this point on, lest there be confusion where it shall not be.

-Twilight Storm | My life for the Dahkri | Explain

*SIGH*

So much for mah distracting kittehs.  And yes, morph, I'm trying to redeem myself.

*Pulls out trump card*

SO I HAVE GREAT NEWS!

And... bad news.

The great news is that Ethan and Mishayla broke up today, and that our "Date" this weekend will be exumpt of her Girlfriend, Hannah.  However, several of our friends are coming along, anyway.

The bad news is that Liz is getting SUPER PISSED at me for giving Mishayla more attention BEFORE we date then I ever gave her while we were dating. As a result, Jess (the one who hooked me up w/ Liz in the first place) is calling me a man-whore, Mishayla a self-centered ignorant slut and blah blah blah...  I was afraid this would happen when I found out that Liz had a crush on me last year.  The easiest way out of this is to just not be friends anymore, but that's gonna be hard, since Liz is my oldest friend, and Mishayla's best friend.

Hmmm... no such thing as a perfect day.

Xer0 \^/

You can always point out the futility of their comments. So what if you didn't give Liz as much attention as she wanted; what does she think you can do about it besides be miserable? Same goes for Jess, because a director of prostitution is as aguilty as the clients and employees.

i liked the kittens it just morph insulted magic

and xer0 did you read my brothers problem now that i think about it its abit like you

Oh, sorry Skidi, can you quote the post? Your tiny posts get lost in the HUGE arguments between Morph and Callen.

Ifear: The main goal that Jess and Liz together are out to get is to STOP me from Dating Mishayla at all costs. (which confuses me, since Liz actually broke up Ethan and Mishayla...)

Xer0 \^/