Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

For Sins Version 1.19 and Entrenchment 1.05

from Sins Forums

Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

BUGS

Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:

- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously

- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously

- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots

- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.

- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.

- Random Map Bugs:

              - Single Phase lane starts

              - No connected Asteroids

              - Overlapping Gravity Wells

- Backwards Dunov Icon

- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)

- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock

- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul

- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.

- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING

- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).

 

CAPITAL SHIPS

This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.

Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)

                          Increase hp/shields/armor?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile               MindsEye                 Swordsalmon
                                                      Hrabandur                CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                   Warlord Mike           Onigiri

                                     Nay-

                          Increase DPS?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                 Swordsalmon           CallenExile
                                                      Hrabandur               CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                       Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           Onigiri

                          Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600)  Darvin3       Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile              MindsEye                  Swordsalmon
                                                      CrazyElectron           Ryat                        Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-            Hrabandur              Onigiri

                          Re-work Animosity?

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz           Darvin3                   Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                Swordsalmon            Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           CallenExile              Hrabandur               Onigiri

         No Change needed-                    CoBBQ

Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)

                        Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?

                                    Yay-            Darvin3               Volt_Cruelerz              Deceiver_0
                                                      Swordsalmon       Agent of Kharma           Hrabandur
                                                      Ryat                   Arthanis                     Warlord Mike
                                                      Onigiri 

                                    Nay-            CallenExile           MindsEye

        No Change needed-

Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)

                       Buff Scramble Bombers?

                                  Yay-              Darvin3              Volt_Cruelerz               Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye            Swordsalmon               Agent of Kharma
                                                      Hrabandur          Ryat                           Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike 

                                  Nay-              CallenExile         Onigiri

                      Buff Replicate Forces?

                                  Yay-               Arthanis            Warlord Mike                 Onigiri

                                  Nay-

        No Change needed-

Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)

                      Increase AM regen?

                                 Yay-               Darvin3               Hrabandur               CrazyElectron
                                                      Ryat                   Juletron                  Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike        Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               CallenExile           Mindseye                 Onigiri

                     Increase maximum AM?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Darvin3                    Hrabandur
                                                      Mindseye            Volt_Cruelerz             CrazyElectron
                                                      Juletron              Arthanis                   Warlord Mike

                                 Nay-               Ryat                  Swordsalmon            Onigiri

                     Increase Dunov EMP range?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Mindseye                  Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      CrazyElectron      Ryat                        Juletron
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike             Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               Hrabandur          Onigiri

                     Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?

                                Yay-                Mindseye           CrazyElectron             Juletron
                                                      Arthanis            Deceiver_0

                                Nay-                Ryat                 Volt_Cruelerz            Warlord Mike
                                                      Swordsalmon      Onigiri

                     Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye           Juletron                    Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis            Warlord Mike             Onigiri

                               Nay-                 Ryat                Swordsalmon

                     Buff Phase out hull?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye            Juletron                   Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike            Swordsalmon
                                                       

                               Nay-                 Ryat                 Onigiri

         No Change Needed-

 

 

DELIVERANCE ENGINE

Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)

Buff Deliverance engine-

                         Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0                Kitkun                    Greyfox2
                                                     anteachtaire              Mow Mow                Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur                 Arthanis

                                    Nay-           Howdidudothat

No buff needed-                                Qu4r                        Darvin3                  CallenExile        

 

 

EMPIRE TREE

As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?

Adjust Empire Tree-

                         Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  SwordSalmon
                                                     JSW_Ballz                Mindseye                Agent of Kharma
                                                     Ryat                        52500                    Mow Mow
                                                     Fuzzy Logic              EadTaes                 Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur               Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Arthanis

                                    Nay-           CallenExile

 

FIGHTERS

Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions

Buff Fighters-

                        Increase armor/hp?

                                  Yay-             Mindseye                 Mow Mow                Greyfox2
                                                     Qu4r                       Arthanis          

                                  Nay-             Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                     Top Vasari               Warlord Mike           EadTaes
                                                     Hrabandur                Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician       Agent of Kharma      CallenExile
                                                     CrazyElectron 

MAPS

Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets  (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?

Magnetic Clouds-

                          Allow starbase deployment?

                                    Yay-            Deceiver_0              Darvin3                  Hrabandur
                                                      Juletron                  Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike
                                                      DirtySanchezz          Kitkun                    Qu4r
                                                      CrazyElectron

                                    Nay-            Ryat                       CallenExile              EadTaes
                                                      DesConnor              -Ue_Carbon             Chaotic Magician

Ice/Volcanic planets-

                          Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?

                                   Yay-             Deceiver_0              Swordsalmon           Ryat
                                                      Darvin3                   Juletron                  Mindseye
                                                      Mow Mow                 EadTaes                 JSW_Ballz
                                                      Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                      Ovi_187                  -Ue_Carbon            Chaotic Magician
                                                      CrazyElectron 

                                   Nay-             CallenExile              DesConnor              DirtySanchezz
                                                      Hrabandur               Agent of Kharma      Qu4r

No Changes needed-

 

 

 

ORKULUS STARBASE

This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.

Nerf Orkulus-

                           Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)

                                     Yay-          Greyfox2                   Raging Amish(3x)   Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Deceiver_0                 Cykur                    Howdidudothat
                                                     Top Vasari                  Swordsalmon         Ryat
                                                     anteachtaire               LordMechanoid       JSW_Ballz
                                                     Warlord Mike              Agent of Kharma    DesConnor
                                                     DirtySanchezz             Kitkun                   Qu4r
                                                     52500                        Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician         Qu4r                    CallenExile
                                                    

Other-

                           SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")

                                    Yay-          Mindseye                    Deceiver_0            Howdidudothat
                                                    Top Vasari                   Cykur                   LordMechanoid
                                                    Warlord Mike               DirtySanchezz        Kitkun
                                                    52500                         Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Chaotic Magician           CallenExile           CrazyElectron
                                                    Arthanis 

                                    Nay-          JSW_Ballz                   DesConnor           Qu4r

 

 

SCOUT FRIGATES

A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.

Nerf Scouts-

                          Decrease hp/shields?

                                     Yay-

                                     Nay-          DirtySanchezz            Cykur                Arthanis

                          Decrease DPS?

                                     Yay-          DirtySanchezz            Greyfox2           Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Cykur

                          Increase Cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Mindseye                   Cykur                 Swordsalmon

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz             Arthanis

No Nerf Needed-                              Deceiver_0                 Wingflier            Howdidudothat
                                                     Darvin3                      Ryat                 CallenExile
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Agent of Kharma  Sivcorp
                                                     52500                       JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                     Kitkun                       Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Qu4r                        CrazyElectron

Balance Scouts-

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier             Mow Mow
                                                    Swordsalmon              Darvin3               Ryat
                                                    Greyfox2                    52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Top Vasari           LordMechanoid
                                                    Kitkun                        Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                          CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz            Howdidudothat      CallenExile
                                                   

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?

                                     Yay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz      Howdidudothat
                                                     Greyfox2                   Hrabandur          Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                    Darvin3               Ryat
                                                     CallenExile                52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                     Cykur                       LordMechanoid     Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                 CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                          Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier              Howdidudothat
                                                    CallenExile                 52500                  LordMechanoid
                                                    Hrabandur                  Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz       Darvin3
                                                    Ryat                          Chaotic Magician   JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Greyfox2             Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                          Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                   Swordsalmon         Howdidudothat
                                                    Ryat                         Chaotic Magician     52500
                                                    JSW_Ballz                  Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                         CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                   DirtySanchezz        Darvin3
                                                    CallenExile                Cykur                   Greyfox2
                                                    LordMechanoid           Kitkun   

                          Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                  Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                    Chaotic Magician         Sivcorp                   Top Vasari
                                                    Kitkun                      Hrabandur              -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                        CrazyElectron           Arthanis

                                     Nay-         CallenExile               JSW_Ballz               Cykur
                                                    LordMechanoid

No Balance Needed-                         Agent of Kharma      EadTaes                 DesConnor

 

 

RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS

While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?

Buff Skirmishers-

                            Increase DPS?
                                        
                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500 
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier              Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                     Ryat                   Sivcorp
                                                    DirtySanchezz             GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile                 Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike              lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                    DesConnor          Kitkun
                                                    Agent of Kharma        Hrabandur           -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                       CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

                            Decrease Supply cost?

                                      Yay-        Raging Amish           LordMechanoid      Hrabandur
                                                    Qu4r    

                                      Nay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier             Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                    Ryat                    CallenExile                
                                                    Mindseye                  JSW_Ballz            Warlord Mike
                                                    lbgsloan                   Mow Mow              Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                            Decrease Resource cost?

                                      Yay-        52500                       Warlord Mike

                                      Nay-        Darvin3                     Cykur                Chaotic Magician  
                                                    Top Vasari                 Howdidudothat    Wingflier
                                                    Swordsalmon             Juletron              Ryat
                                                    DirtySanchezz             Raging Amish     CallenExile
                                                    Mindseye                   JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                    lbgsloan                    Kitkun                Hrabandur
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               Qu4r                   Arthanis

                            Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?

                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0               Darvin3               52500
                                                    Chaotic Magician       Top Vasari           Howdidudothat          
                                                    Wingflier                  Swordsalmon       Juletron
                                                    Ryat                        Sivcorp               Runesia
                                                    DirtySanchezz           GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile               Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
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                                                    EadTaes                  Kitkun                 Agent of Kharma
                                                    Hrabandur               -Ue_Carbon          Qu4r 
                                                    CrazyElectron            Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

 

No Change Needed-

 

 

 

1,702,046 views 913 replies
Reply #776 from Sins Forums Top

(phase stabilizer, right! Ever saw THAT in a serious game?)

Ya I used it on a sb i sneaked thru past a heavily defended planet while he tried to repel me from attacking it.Then I jumped straight past it to my sb and started killin all his worlds.It was pretty effective.

Reply #777 from Sins Forums Top

Oi, I think you might have mixed some numbers up, N3rull. Anti-Module deals 25% to Light, 50% to Medium, 75% to Heavy, 100% to Cap and V.Heavy, and 200% to Module. 328 damage per bank, 9 second cooldown.

So Desint DPS vs Light is ~9.1, Medium is ~18.2, Heavy is ~27.3, Cap and V.Heavy is ~36.4, and against Module is ~72.9. (Before upgrades)

 

:fox:

WindowBlinds - Free yourself of the default settings, customize your desktop.
Reply #778 from Sins Forums Top

Orkies do dmg like starfish but they dont have the advantage of range. Even a fully upgraded Orky can have trouble cracking a defensive cluster with a fully upgraded TEC or Advent Starbase. It also kinda sucks that to fully upgrade HP and Weapons on the orky takes up 7 upgrade slots, leaving only 1 left for debris vortex or frontal shielding. Yeah Orkies are tough as nails, but are still easily overwhelmed by large fleets. One wouldnt dare send a fleet up against a fully upped TEC or Advent SB, and yet when you're fleet reaches a certain size, a Vasari SB even fully upped is not much of a threat, especially for fleets made primarily of LRFS. Maybe the illum nerf will change that dynamic a bit cuz in practice, massive illuminator fleets that quickly double in size with illusions have the easiest time taking down my fully upped Orkies, because the fake illuminators make losses negligible. Though I don't think the Orkulus needs much buffing at all, I do lean towards doing more damage to LRFs.

Reply #779 from Sins Forums Top

Pulse Guns to Composite would be nice.

 

:fox:

Reply #780 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Deceiver_0, reply 778
Maybe the illum nerf will change that dynamic a bit cuz in practice, massive illuminator fleets that quickly double in size with illusions have the easiest time taking down my fully upped Orkies, because the fake illuminators make losses negligible.

This.  THIS.  A THOUSAND TIMES, THIS!!!

Reply #781 from Sins Forums Top

Oi, I think you might have mixed some numbers up, N3rull. Anti-Module deals 25% to Light, 50% to Medium, 75% to Heavy, 100% to Cap and V.Heavy, and 200% to Module. 328 damage per bank, 9 second cooldown.

So Desint DPS vs Light is ~9.1, Medium is ~18.2, Heavy is ~27.3, Cap and V.Heavy is ~36.4, and against Module is ~72.9. (Before upgrades)
No, my numbers are fine (double checked). The damage is per bank. Full DPS is stated as 73 (or is that wrong?), divided by 4 gives dps per bank. Then all the modifiers are applied as they should.

It does not matter if I take the per bank DPS or the full one. It doesn't matter if I divide it by 15 or by ∏e², it is the proportions between what an argonev/trancy does to what an orky does.

I still believe that an orky should not take 3 offensive + 4 defensive upgrades + all warfare reseach done to be a comparable threat to a half-developed transcencia.
Orky does one thing and one thing only, and that is fighting. As it is, it does it worse than the two other SBs which have a ton of other applications. It also should be a structure buster but the total damage done to structures is only slightly higher than the total damage any other SB does (to that orky). It takes a fully developed Orky to challenge a half developed argo/transy ... that takes time and tons of resources better spent on bombers.
Oh, and it deals very nice damage to carriers which it is never going to catch.

Ya I used it on a sb i sneaked thru past a heavily defended planet while he tried to repel me from attacking it.Then I jumped straight past it to my sb and started killin all his worlds.It was pretty effective.

Right, sure. I can bet that this was only an effective mop up, because if you had the money and time to play around with phase stabilizers (labs, research and all that) and - lol - sneaked a starbase - lol! - past his defended world, then I suppose that guy was already done anyway. Either because you've already owned him and just found a visually-effective way to finish the job or because he was drunk.

Sneaked a starbase... lol.

Reply #782 from Sins Forums Top

Does anyone think it would be to much to ask to update RA and Insurgency for entrenchment. Maybe get an ogrov every now in then in the rebel forces, or maybe receive a migrator or ruiner once in while from RA. I know its not much of an issue, but I feel like those two abilities are kinda stuck in Vanilla sins.

Reply #783 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Deceiver_0, reply 782
Does anyone think it would be to much to ask to update RA and Insurgency for entrenchment. Maybe get an ogrov every now in then in the rebel forces, or maybe receive a migrator or ruiner once in while from RA. I know its not much of an issue, but I feel like those two abilities are kinda stuck in Vanilla sins.

I dunno if it's NECESSARY, per se, but I wouldn't mind the changes, to be sure.  I'd consider it if the topic came up.

Reply #784 from Sins Forums Top

I thought all Orkulus disadvanatges to other space stations are justified by it's mobility.

Reply #785 from Sins Forums Top

The forces themselves might be a little stronger, but an ogrov would be too badass. A single ogrov can four-shot most structures. You'd find your backyard worlds cleaned before you finished your "what the f-word?".

I thought all Orkulus disadvanatges to other space stations are justified by it's mobility.
Being mobile is an asset, that's for sure. But still... should the orky lose all AOE abilities, all fleet support capability and its combat prowess to being mobile? Would you trade your pimped out crib for a latrine on wheels just because it can be moved?
Sure, transcencia has meteors, Argo has its boons and whatnot, Orky has its engines. Fine. There must be some tradeoff here and it must be good - and so Transcencia can disable enemy ships and blast them for 750 damage every 30 seconds plus its normal damage and has more strikecraft and can bombard planets and spread culture, while the Orky can fly. I'm fine with that. 
But should it also be the weakest starbase combat-wise unless you pay extra 5500 credits and a heap of resources to fill its last upgrade slots with guns and armor? So that you end up with a flying and shooting brick that has ABSOLUTELY no use beyond that and FINALLY as good as other SBs in combat? A brick that brings zero profit and can be just skipped like mr. Mindseye said he did?

Reply #786 from Sins Forums Top

actually I have seen ogrovs being used in Insurgency

Reply #787 from Sins Forums Top

Granted fake illums can decrease the amount of dps to real ones for lack of targeting with each individual weapon but SB can target stuff.  It is easy to tell the difference between real and fake.  The fakes only last 2 minutes out of 3 minutes anyways and in that minute every illum is real and receiving fire.  The thing is though that half of the illums damage is in side beams(50% front and 25% for each side) and they dont use side beams when fighting a SB.  Plus frontal shield decreases by 100% and 200% for its levels(presumeably half and quarter damage respectively).  If you move half your fleet to the other side to avoid frontal shield then you have increased the orky's own dps by more banks firing.  Personally I won't touch a orkulus with even 2 or 3 upgrades unless i have 40+ illums and a decent progen with guardians and thats with little to no supporting fleet along with it.  It is bombers all the way or push through to another system.  It doesn't need range although the range is decent because it can move.  Ever try killing an orkulus with starfish?  It doesn't work.  It can just run them over and that buttload of resources you spent on an anti-structure fleet is just more hp for debris vortex.  Ogrovs do ok but still it requires microing them out of range when the orky comes charging and you will still lose some ogrovs.  Antistructure units are underwhelming anyways even after their cost was decreased.

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #788 from Sins Forums Top

Plus frontal shield decreases by 100% and 200% for its levels(presumeably half and quarter damage respectively)
that's true, but you didn't notice duration/cooldown. On the first level, frontal shields work for 45 seconds with a 90 second cooldown. So, it's 50% real damage reduction for half of the time, meaning 25% sustained damage reduction.
On level 2 it works for 60 seconds with a 90 sec cooldown which makes it a little better (66% real damage reduction working 66% of the time, so a total of ~44% sustained damage reduction - still not quarter :) ), HOWEVER:
- that is TWO upgrade slots byebye. Either you miss out the fourth defense or third offense upgrade - either your orky is not tough as nails or it has less firepower than other SBs.
- this is tier 5 research, illums aren't
- it take 4500 creds to make it 2/2 frontal shields and this alone grants no armor, no health, no healing and no damage.
- regardless of how little damage you take during those 45/60 seconds (if the enemy is stupid enough to pound on the frontal shield that is), there is still the remaining 45/30 seconds, during which a sensible fleet can pretty much annihilate a non-4/4-defensive Orky. I've seen 50 Kodis wipe a 3 def Orky in 30 seconds. Frontal shield wouldn't help too much.

I am quite sure that 2/2 frontal shields did not work 60duration-90cooldown before. I'm sure it was 60/120. Never mind, it's still 2 upgrade slots on a brick that takes 3 offense, 3 defense and debris vortex to be able to survive any serious battle. Error.

Reply #789 from Sins Forums Top

Decevier_0,

 

You gonna fire up the next version of this topic for 1.06? I would assume most of our suggestions would carry over since the new patch didnt change to many of our suggestions.

Reply #790 from Sins Forums Top

50 kodiaks is a lot more focused firepower and a lot more resources than a 3 defense orkulus.  Should it be surprising to you that 3 upgrade SB should die to a 500 supply in just HC fleet that took a LOT more resources and time to build?  50 HC is what an orkulus killing fleet should consist of if you are going to do it conventionally rather than bombers.  One would hope you would at least have subverters to stop them if the enemy has 50 kodiaks against you rather than bank on a half upgraded SB.  Frontal shields would negate half figuratively from doing anything when active so it may not have any stored hit points but it can decrease the amount you receive which can mean a lot.  25 percent averaged out for level 1 is still a lot of damage intercepted.  Could you imagine something having the equivalent of 80+ percent shield mitigation and tell me how much of a bitch that is to kill?  Ohhh thats right....thats the orkulus with frontal shields.

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #791 from Sins Forums Top

I will probably start a new one, but not until after the next one is released. We need to take a good look at how the gameplay changes with the patch before we can draw any conclusions. But yeah, Im think some of the topics (particularly Cap ships) will carry over.

Grey- Your right starfish are garbage against Orkies, Ogrovs, not so much. Without frontal shield you can take down a fully upped Orky with 15-20 Ogrovs without losing too many of them. And if there are hoshis involved, well you probably wont lose any. And 40 illums supported by a progen is way easy to come by (in fact I see this kind of fleet in almost every game I play in MP). And with the progen and illusions losses would be minimal. Yes it is easy to tell the difference between real and fake, but you cant target ships individually with weapons banks. You tell the Orky to attack one ship, it still uses its other banks to fire on other ships, regardless of what ship they are (real or not). SO with illusions, much of the Orkies firepower can be neutralized, any where from 0% to 100% (more likely 50%+). The real bummer to me is that illusions are effected by all abilities (icluding shield restore and shield projections), they just dont do any damage. Its kinda like spawning a bunch of defense vessels out of nowhere for meat shielding. I know I use flak frequently against illuminators to absorb damage, but the damn illuminators can just freely double their numbers to take damage, minimal cost for a huge gain.

I've always though illusions were way OP for such a high HP/Shield unit. In small numbers its not that bad, but when do you ever see small numbers of illums in MP? And I know you'll say the fake ones are easy to spot, but where as Illuminators are not micro intensive at all, in order for another race to overcome the doubling of the fleets hp, you have to micro your pants off. That just seems horribly unfair to me. When you can take your fleet of 60 illums, and make 60 more ships from thin air that you don't care whether or not you lose (because theyre almost completely free), that just seems a bit on the OP side. Now I know theres really no good, easy way to fix it, but it tends to make any points for the illuminator invalid in my eyes. You know they say that Skirms and Enforcers lack of dmg for their cost is to balance their ability to reintegrate, but I see no balance in the illuminators stats for their illusion ability.

Back to my original point about Orkies vs Illuminators- At least the losses to fleets charging the Orky from Vasari or TEC will take losses that cost money, that have an impact on their fleet and their economy, but when illusions are absolutely free, and can have their shields restored, and a 3rd of the damage to them redirected, losses to illuminator fleets have very little impact on the fleet itself or the advent economy. 60 Ilums with illusions will shred an Orky (frontal shield or debris vortex or not), where as against a TRans or Argonev, you woulndt dare send them to destroy it. I might add that I dont believe fake illuminators leave debris for debris vortex to swallow. So im definitely for a buff to LRF damage on the orkies.

N3rull- OK well I get that the duration is different, but what exactly is the point of having 200% damage reduction? Does that possibly overcome abilities like designate target?

Reply #792 from Sins Forums Top

Could you imagine something having the equivalent of 80+ percent shield mitigation and tell me how much of a bitch that is to kill? Ohhh thats right....thats the orkulus with frontal shields.
Could you imagine kiting such a thing for 60 seconds and then wiping it out in 30 seconds without having to worry about no frontal shields?
Ohhh thats right....thats the orkulus with frontal shields on cooldown.

Also remember that when have 2/2 frontal shields and 4 def (so as to stop that kodi fleet from rotflmao wiping that orky), you can only put on measly 2 off upgrades AND THAT ORKY WILL DO 30% (!!) LESS DAMAGE TO THOSE KODIS THAN AN ARGONEV WITH 2 OFFENSIVE UPS.
Bah, a transy would wipe that fleet. But that orky has no chances. Yay orky.

Reply #793 from Sins Forums Top

Idea: What if we increase Okulus upgrade slots to 10?

Reply #794 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Arthanis, reply 793
Idea: What if we increase Okulus upgrade slots to 10?

:omg:

I likes this idea, along with the other suggestions mentioned. }:)

Reply #795 from Sins Forums Top

i don't see that going over well. I think id rather have disintegrators do some significant splash damage on the third upgrade. They fire slow as hell anyway.

Reply #796 from Sins Forums Top

On another note, how did my post, being seven seconds AFTER Deciever's, come FIRST? o_O

My GOD!  I must have discovered the secret to time travel! :rofl:

Reply #797 from Sins Forums Top

Microing counting for illusions is as easy as using the empire tree to target rather than directly clicking the unit.  If you are not targeting ANY real illums with a SB thats your own fault for not targeting a real one(easily done with empire tree).  Any damage to other units is not controllable to a good extent so that would in fact be damage wasted.  I have went against an orky on repeated occasions with 40 illums and a progen and let me tell you it isn't that easy to kill especially if it has been sitting with the upgrades rather than getting them on the fly while being attacked.  If you can catch it while being built then maybe you can very well kill one with that fleet depending on how much damage you get in while building.  Shield restore helps but it doesn't help that much and if you dont have guardians to share some of the shield burden you are still going to lose a good amount of ships and you will run out of AM quick unless you are at a star.

 

A transcencia would die as quick as an orkulus given 3 defense upgrades.  It certainly would not wipe it unless the advent had some guardians to repulse the kodiaks out of range.  Without intervention you may get off 1 meteor in the time it has against 50 kodiaks but that would be it.  Even with mass disorientation it would not be that much longer although it would prolong its life to maybe get off a 2nd meteor.  If you want to allow for guardians then certainly subverters could be around to neutralize on the vasari side.  With all that though you are raised to a 5 upgrade sb with fleet support which is a whole different ball of wax in either case.

Argonev is different completely because of the button.  It can take out a large fleet with the sacrifice of the SB.

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #798 from Sins Forums Top

   damageEnums
        AttackType "ANTIMODULE"
        DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"
        DamageApplyType "OVERTIME"
        DamageType "ENERGY"
        WeaponClassType "CHAOSBOLT"
    DamagePerBank:FRONT 328.000000
    DamagePerBank:BACK 328.000000
    DamagePerBank:LEFT 328.000000
    DamagePerBank:RIGHT 328.000000
    Range 6000.000000
    PreBuffCooldownTime 9.000000

328/9=~36.4

Does that to all targets before damage type.

Tell me if I'm doing something stupid. Trig test fried my math brain. :X

N3rull- OK well I get that the duration is different, but what exactly is the point of having 200% damage reduction? Does that possibly overcome abilities like designate target?
Iirc, formula is 1/(1+X) so 200% reduction puts incoming damage to 1/3rd normal.

 

:fox:

Reply #799 from Sins Forums Top

What if we increase Orkulus (or even all starbases) upgrade slots to 10? It won't break balance, because UBER_combinations_of_more_then_8_upgrades_pwning_everything_and_screwing_balance don't exist. It is just more upgrades = higher cost = higher possible casualties when Space Station explodes - but increasing number of slots to 10 will solve all Orkulus problems.

Reply #800 from Sins Forums Top

Grey, your forgetting that Mass disorientation outranges kodiaks and illums alike, and cuts down on their fire rate significantly. I just wiped the floor with a fleet of illuminators with a Transcencia with 1 defensive upgrade, 1 mass disorient upgrade and 2 meteor upgrades. I hit disorient before the illums got in range and then pummeled them with 3 meteor storms, the third as they were running off. Annihilated more than half the fleet. Now in the previous patch, and orky wouldnt have stood a chance against a fleet of illuminators that size. But in THIS patch (1.05) I threw around the same amount of illums, supported by a progen, a halo, illusions and guardians at a fully upped Orky and barely made a dent in it. Ggranted I had to kill a baby transcenscia first, and was taking fire from, the survivng half of that earlier fleet, but I had my illums 2/3 the way fully upped and that Orky still raped me illusions and all. So far im liking the reduced power of illuminators, they are still tough as nails, but they dont just rip everything to shreds anymore.

Oh and 1 more thing on illusions, its only easy to FF real ships if theyre all together. Otherwise by simply clicking on the empire tree, you could end up sending your fleet after illuminators all over the place, and thats recipe for disaster. Either that or once you realize youve jsut queued your fleet to attack something on the other side of the well, you have to reque everything. Not to mention it tends to get hardere later in the game with the empire tree jumping up and down. Where as the illuminators owner must simply set and forget. (hopefully not so much anymore, I see the old side-beam roundabout coming back in this patch)