How about you return to the topic?

there is a topic in this thread?

yes there is!

the topic is whatever i want it to be and right now it is:

-Exiled Possum

My point exactly

The time it would take a weapon firing at the speed of light to travel from one planet to another would actually leave you a fair bit of time to react, assuming everyone is on their guard.

And if we're limiting the range of these weapons based on targeting sensors, it's really up to the sensors themselves. If they can lock a target that far, then why fight with vessels rather than orbital platforms and colony ships?

The biggest reason to fight as close as the same grav well is to make weapons like bullets and missiles useful. Lasers could be useful from afar, but that depends on our ability to maintain cohesion at a distance. Like with most sci-fis, a big problem is putting it in the year 2XXX with no idea how tech will work out come that year.

As for strikecraft, they can still be useful. Not only can they avoid large turn radii by simply turning on the spot, then compensating, but if engine technology progresses far enough to make a missile operate efficiently, then a fighter too could develop the speed and maneuverability to provide a fair opponent. Of course, beyond a certain point you either have to have all fighters unmanned OR develop some kick-ass inertial dampening system.

Now that I think about it, the best reason to use a fighter is that if designed properly, it's radar cross section could be crazy small, allowing it to slip in without notice by many automated weapons and deliver a payload. Of course, to counter visual identification or red-shift detection, it would have to absorb light AND have no external lights. That means precautions would have to be taken for safe launching and landing.

Uh, Draak, you're forgetting something about SPACE!!!!!- it's really, really, really, REALLY, REALLY sensor friendly. So I would know that you sent a bunch of little fighters my way. I just probably won't be able to lock onto them very quickly. But I'll know their there and that will allow my response to be crazy fast and completely obliterate your inter-planetary fighters.

Missiles are really the longest-ranged weapons you'll ever use, if you have "torch missiles". Torch Missiles are effectively missiles that have miniature versions of your vessels' propulsion systems. Basically, if your ships can cross a star system, so can your missiles.

@Draakjacht

if i fire a weapons with the speed of light (like laser or a rail gun (nearly speed of light)) you will not see it coming. it basically comes down to the following:

one defending fleet (or ship) and one attacking:

the attackers spot the defending fleet, lock on their targets and fire. the defending fleet will see that they got spotted and then have exactly the time it took the attackers to aim or else they are toast. they will never see the enemy actually firing since your sensors are only as fast as the weapon.

you could only counteract this by periodic random movement (which itself can be countered by saturating the close proximity of the target with projectiles).

i have not thought of stealth, but you never know how far gravimetric sensors will be in the far future. it may be possible that even when you have no emissions you can still be detected by your mass.

-Exiled Possum

@Whiskey

only to add to your true words:

missiles are also the slowest weapon type and thus prone to counter measures like point defense lasers. you would need to over saturate those defenses.

-Exiled Possum

@ Whiskey. I'm not talking inter-stellar fighters. tesb brought up the idea of firing from planet to planet. I'm not in favor of that. I'm thinking caps in orbit, launching the buggers. As for sensors, that's totally up to imagination since there are technologies to counter them. Bullets have as long of a range as missiles, BUT can not redirect their path. If you're talking about using a missile from planet to planet, it better phase, otherwise it would be shot down as easily as a fighter.

@tesb if you're talking planet to planet, light takes a few minutes to make the path and computers would be on watch. If you're talking two ships in orbit, then it would be a quick battle, assuming shields are not an issue. And railguns do not move at teh speed of light. They use projectiles, which means at the speed of light, the material would convert to energy. And gravimetric sensors is a good way to go, but again it depends on what level of tech you're talking. If you can make artificial gravity, then it might be possible to reduce gravitational distortion as well.

I'm not trying to shit on anyone's theories, just throwing out my two cents. If Whiskey dwells on what's said, he'll likely choose a fine combination of conclusions since he can make up any level of tech he wants. The best thing he could do, if he were dead serious, would be to talk to a physicist at a nearby college or institute.

@Draakjacht

i did mention that rail guns would only get nearly to the speed of light, but let us use lasers for now.

the speed of your sensor information can not surpass the weapon!!!!

for example if i knew where your ships are stationed (because i have a spy in your ranks) i will fire my weapons asap. what that means is, even if you sweep the skies all the time you will not see any of it coming you will simply incinerate.

if i would use projectile weapons you would only have that time difference to react that is created between the different speeds of the projectile on the one hand and your sensors on the other ( and the distance needed before impact). if the projectile is fired with say 0.8 c you would never have enough time to react (if we talk from one planet to an other)

-Exiled Possum

In order to prevent this from becoming a flame war of who's right or wrong, I refer you to the site projectrho.com. Look under the section "Atomic Rockets".

That should be perfect for solving differences.

Ultimately, since I am keeping most of the Sins reference frame if you will, it will effectively just be changing lasers to have beam effects and longer range, missiles to have absolutely silly range, and some ships flying dynamically; though all units will have the effects of inertia replicated as much as possible and is allowed by the engine.

EDIT: as for relativistic (>0.14c) projectile weapons, good luck slapping one on a ship, they take an absolutely ridiculous amount of energy to fire. How do I know this? 1) Atomic Rockets, and 2) I've done the calculations. Effectively you'll need at least as much or a little more energy than the projectile will contain on firing.

flame war? i had quite a good time talking to each other, i did not even smelt any smoke let alone see any flames.

maybe there is too much troll in me by now, that i don't even recognize this.

i am deeply sorry if i trolled you, for once this was not my intention.

I just wanted to stress the fact (in all my posts) that if the weapon that is fired is as fast as the sensors to detect it, it is not avoidable. (i made this point over and over with its implications so i just stop here)

-Exiled Possum

@Whiskey

make the mod what you want it to be, but if you want to stay on physics you could not even see the laser (unless it was fired towards you, and then you are dead :D).

the laser you see in a lab is light reflected of dust particles in the air, since most of space lacks those (or with a much much much smaller density) you would not see them.

-Exiled Possum

Okay, I see what you mean about that. I dunno if I would put railguns anywhere near lasers, so that might not work out.

Actually, the big bump I just thought about was you mentioned gravimetric sensors. Excluding some type of crazy phase approach, those sensors would let you know when anything enters the system. So it would be hard to be surprised when as soon as the enemy arrives, you know where they are. That gives the advantage to the defender, which actually fits the general consensus that defensive forces have the odds in their favor.

And I think the problem with a 'flame war' is that there is no tone of voice. If someone gets frustrated, they can attach their feelings to a tone they perceive.

Ooh! Cool idea. Tachyons move faster than light and could be incorporated both into sensors and carbon nanotubules for processors. Maybe a way to react in time to fend off moderate laser engagement? Maybe even make tachyons into weapons, capable of bypassing all sensors, forcing both sides to maintain active deflectors. This adds to the reactor requirements.

And as for being fried, I guess it also depends on defensive systems. In Sins, screens are always active and can take a helluva battering. Might buy them a touch of time.

@tesb- I just seemed to be getting a little out of hand is all. I also happen to know a lot more about lasers than you might think (I calculate laser weapon parameters for fun). And you didn't troll me per se, it just as I said seemed to be getting a little out of hand.

@Draak- I haven't got a clue if Tachyons exist; I generally disregard them in my SF musings.

@Draakjacht

gravity propagates with the speed of light, so if an enemy fleet jumps in your system and start to fire immediately because they know where you are  (because of traitors in the lines) you gravity detectors will give you a signal that a fleet has arrived in the same time you are being hit by the weapon.

particles that  travel faster then the speed of light were called tachyon in theoretical physics and where shown that they also would travel backwards in time. that is why you will always hear about them in technobabble when time travel is mentioned (i.e. star trek). also they are only pure theoretical concept, so its pure speculation if sensors that could detect, if tachyons would exist, could exist.

Rail guns accelerate objects by magnetic fields, the more mass with the more velocity you want to shoot sets the requirement for your energy needed to fire. it is in the realm of todays physics to accelerate a particle to very close to the speed of light (this is done in the LHC for example). if you would propel an object of say 1kg you would need a lot of energy of course.

-Exiled Possum

Tachyons themselves have not been proven nor disproven. It goes back to quantum theories, and I'm not up for that right now. Too damn sick.

tachyons are not so much going backwards in time, as much as their observation would be in reverse from from their actual actions. But that's theory, so who cares.

okay, you're basing a lot of information on traitors, but not only is that terribly unreliable, but that means he would have to have an entire branch of research dedicated to the apparently necessary goal of infiltration.

that is very much true, thus i said it is speculation, where all the other things we mentioned are in the realm far or near future implementation

-Exiled Possum

the traitors were just examples to show you the difference it makes when sensors and weapons both propagate at the same speed. you can only avoid a fist to your face if you see it first

of course there can be counter measures, i already mentioned one: sporadic randomly course  changes (although they too could be countered by computing the possible flight paths once you acquired your target and shoot at them too)

-Exiled Possum

okay, dry spell has gone on long enough. not going to give tesb a whole 24 hours in charge.

YAY!!!

'

what????

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HEY!!! This is fun.

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damn i was so close.....

so close

i had victory within my grasp

so close

-Exiled Possum