LEAUKI POSTS# 55

KFC POSTS:

You are right, KFC, the Divine judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah was due in part to the sin of immorality, and sodomy in particular. In Genesis 18:20, God had already said that the sin of the cities was "exceedingly grave" and this was even before the 2 Angels showed up in Sodom that the Lord had already targeted these 2 cities for destruction. Remember v. 23....the Divine intention to "sweep away" all who lived there was what led Abraham to plead for mercy. Saying that the "exceedingly grave" sin was inhospitality is the new way, the politically correct way of presenting the great sin of Sodom. Saying it means inhospitality is an attempt to condone something that Sacred Scripture clearly condemns.

Leauki,

Yes, indeed, the Hebrew word translated "to know" in this verse refers to sex. To say that the townsmen simply wanted to know in the sense of merely become acquainted or meet with Lot's guests is ludicruous...especially when in v. 7, Lot responded to the initial request by beseeching the men, "Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly."  

leauki posts #64

KFC POSTS:

Yes, KFC, it makes sense when you take the Bible as a whole.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 and Genesis are in agreement for Ezekiel doesn't ignore the issue of homosexuality at all. Here Ezekiel addresses the sins of Israel by pointing to the sins of Sodom and links Sodom's judgment to the city's pride and luxurious lifestyle and the inhabitant's refusal to help those in need.  Ezekiel references the fact that Sodom "committed abominations" before God is no doubt a reference to the inhabitant's homosexuality, especially with the story in Genesis in the minds of Ezekiel's hearers. The Jews well understood "abomination" as a commom way of referring to sexual sin like sodomy. Lev. 18:22.

Ezekiel's reference to Sodom adds to the Genesis account. The "arrogant self-indulgence" of Sodom's citizens contributed to the sexual perversion. Ezekiel 16: 10-14 lays out Isreal's harlotries and abominations as tied to the unfaithful nation's own wealth and material blessings...luxury and arrogance can lead therefore to sexual perversion and that was the precise impact of Ezekiel's reference to Sodom.   

I really must have rode the short bus . . but I fail to see how a Christian story relates to the topic.

I mean . . it's sorta interesting . . but not really pertinent to the conversation, is it?  Is the arguement now that a god said homosexual sex is bad?  That makes your disagreement with same-sex marriage OK?  The government *should* be involved?

Let me rephrase for my own clarity and you can fill in:

"The state and federal governments should be involed in and prevent same-sex holy matrimony/marriages/civil unions because ____________________"

Yes to all three questions. And since God comdemns homosexuality, we therefore must do the same unless we want unhappiness and chaos.

There are certain truths or foundational principles upon which everything created by God operates. Contained in these truths and principles is a group of 3 instiutions of delegated authority established by God. Each of these is intended to guide a specific area of man's function while we live here on earth. A good understanding of these institutions will ensure the well-being of any society or government.

The first and most fundamental and essential institution of delegated authority created and established by God is the family. The second is the Church and the third is the arena of civil government.  Romans 13:1 spells it all out, starting with "Let every living soul (which means all mankind) be subject to the governing authority." The power of this earthly institution is delegated by God for a purpose and ultimately for our own good.  

St.Paul says in V. 2, "Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God  and those who resist will bring judgment upon themselves." Such authority is not absolute since it's delegated to humans who are capable of misusing it. But the one entrusted with that authority must exercise it in a manner God intended. To oppose it is to oppose God.

V. 3 says that For rulers are not a terror to good works, but a terror to evil...." So, civil authority is ordained by God to be a terror to evil.

ElDuderino posts #60

Marriage is and will always be a sacred institution becasue it was established by God in the Garden of Paradise with Adam and Eve. It's man (the modern State) who commands marriages be declared null and void by divorce and ultimately perverts the institution of marriage.

The family is the firstmost fundamental and essential institution created by God. It bases are the sexual affection between a man and a woman and their nurturing relationship to any children their conjugal union produces.  Becasue the body parts don't fit, homosexuals can't produce children.

Under God, the family operating in good order is a vital element necessary for societal and cultural health. In general, both divorce and homosexuality negatively effect the proper functioning of the family and when families aren't functioning properly, welose the institution which supplies stability and the ingredients which produce social health in the larger community. The parents are responsible before God to raise, correct, love and educate their children and God has delegated authority to the parents to accomplish this.

As far as nature is concerned, since the body parts don't fit, homosexuality is unnatural.

As far as chimpanzees, in the wild, homosexuality is an exception to normal behavior. Now, in varying degrees, all living beings can adapt to circumstances and the times we most often see chimpanzees acting out homosexuality is when they are confined to zoos. Isn't the homosexuality rate much higher when people are confined to prisons?

Any port in a storm. 

OK.  Now that I'm done being 12 years old again.  Prison sex does not equal love; homosexual or otherwise.  I'm marking that up to a flawed and failed syllogism.  Move along.

Also . . in regards to parts not fitting; I do not believe that a marriage or civil union requiers sex.  I hope that my grandparents are done with that part of their lives (ewww) but are still married.  Right?

Lastly (I think), the arguement that God sanctified marriage only works if you believe in a god.  Should the state have a stance there?  Do you really, truely want teh state involved in matters of faith?  Do you really believe that civil authority is ordained by God?  All civil authority?  Throught history?

sex =! love. Period... gay or straight the two are not synonamous..

But consentual homosexuality and prison rape are completely different things. And also completely unrelated to the issue of gay marriage.

Saying gay marriage legitimized gay rape is as rediculous as saying hetro marriage legitimizes hetrosexual rape. It just doesn't, they are unrelated.

I stand by what I say.

The story of Sodom and Gamora doesn't mention sex, hence you have to read sex into it.

I am just not of the mindset to read "to know" as "have sex with" when both subject and object of the word are men.

We can leave it at that. I am, when it comes down to it, a literalist, and KFC and Lula tend to interpret more and read metaphors into the text. I don't know who is right, but I prefer a religion in which hospitality is regarded as more of a virtue than homosexuality is regarded as a sin.

When you take away dogma and disgust and just being "different", same-sex couples aren't that different from what we have now.

TALTIMER POSTS:

So now the argument is that the sin here in Genesis is not homosexuality per se, but rape..violence forcing sexual activity. Could be for don't the men after being rebuffed by Lot fully intend to brutilize Lot's guests? Bottom line is they were homosexuals who wanted sex with Lot's visitors.

LEAUKI POSTS:

That they wanted "to know" means they were after sex becasue Lot immediately offered his daughters to the men (itself a disgraceful act), which would otherwise be inexplicable.

While Scripture is filled with metaphors, this story in Genesis when read in its full context is not a metaphor. It tells of God's judgment and should be a lesson to us.

Those who interpret Genesis and see the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah as one of inhospitality rather than of homosexuality are looking at it through smoke and mirrors. Sodom and Gomorrah weren't destroyed for inhospitality. This is typical way of explaining away of an embarrassing biblical passage to fit the modern homosexualist, hedonist agenda.  

VarekRaith posts:

As far as infallible...there is only one truth and truth is in possession. On the question of whether or not homosexual "marriage" destroys civilizations, I believe it does and you believe it doesn't. Only one of us has the truth.

Leviticus refers a lot of things as abominations, not just homosexuality.  It claims that eating shellfish is an abomination for example.

But the government is supposed to be secular in nature.  Once you start involving government in religion (and vice versa) bad things start happening.

So you agree that the institute of marriage is already perverted by allowing divorce.  So why not allow gay marriage, or civil unions if the word marriage bothers you?

I still don't see how this impacts the stability of the family.  So what if they can't produce their own children, aren't their plenty of kids out there who need to be adopted into loving homes?  What makes them unfit parents?

What about those of us who don't believe in god?  Why are we to be bound by your rules?

How can you argue that something that occurs in nature is unnatural?  By definition if it happens in nature it is natural.

Wrong, just plain wrong.  I have seen video footage from multiple studies done (shown on the discovery channel) where they saw chimps in the wild having sex with members of the same-sex all the time.  In fact it appeared that the only reason they had heterosexual sex was to procreate, otherwise they has sex with members of the same sex.

Last time I checked we have absolutely problems with low population growth and overflowing orphanages so this is just not true.

Homosexuals are not all rapists and not all rapists are homosexual so to draw that conculsion is absurd.  What does it matter if they were homosexuals or not, if you want to interpret sex from this I would have to agree with Leauki that what they are trying to do here is rape which I would agree is a sin (if I were religious).