Hey AD, I still can't read 210, but at least we have a comment box now where there wasn't one before

See ya!

Did that fix the rest?

It turns out pasting from MS Word breaks forum.

Why would you paste from MS Word?

Seems awfully complicated to me. I type either in the in the comment box or in Notepad/TextEdit.app (fast and guaranteed text only).

Anyway, MS Word adds all sorts of funny characters to text. Avoid using it for anything but _documents_. It's not a good editor. Use Notepad.

then how do you address DAniel, Jesus and Paul who spoke of a future time when the Anti-Christ will sit in the temple and declare himself god (history repeating itself)?  The Temple will be built Lula.  My guess it's soon most definitely in our lifetime.  What will you say then? 

yeah I couldn't post here either.  Couldn't get past AD's #201 as well. 

that's what I was thinking.  I usually just type in the comment box as well.  Too bothersome to transfer from anything else. 

AD

I'll get back to you on your Romans 11.  I wanted to reply today before it got wonky but will have time later to do so.  What your wife  said is true.

He also said he's coming back.  That hasn't happened yet either. 

When he does, according to Zechariah (in the OT)  that's when the Jews' eyes will be opened and they will sorrow for Him.  That will be the ultimate Day of Atonement for the whole nation. 

ad posts: 161

Yes, the second Temple was intact during Jesus' life.  It was Herod who finished Zerrubbabel's efforts, by initiating a massive reconstruction project in 20 BC and completed around 10 BC. This is the same Temple that Christ told the Apostles that within their generation would be totally destructed St.Matt. 24 and history confirms the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in 70AD.  

And yes, there is definitely a connection between the Church and the Temple.

AD POSTS: #169 [quote]What about the 3rd Temple?

KFC POSTS: # 174

KFC,

"Temple will be rebuilt"?  Does 2Thess.2 teach this very specific prediction of yours? I don't think so. As a matter of fact in the first part of that St.Paul warns the Thessalonians against such things.

He teaches 2 premonitory signs have to take place before our Lord's Second Coming (Parousia) to judge all nations...one, there's going to be a massive rebellion or apostasy of the faithful from God. Here, St. Paul is basically repeating what our Lord Jesus said in St.Matt. 24:12 . Just as false prophets came and lead people astray before the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem in 70AD, the same will happen and as a result of following or believing false teachers, people will no longer love and believe in God.   

Two, the "man of lawlwssness", "the son of perdition" is revealed. This passage assumes the Church will be around when the man of lawlessness revealed. That will be during the final confrontation between good and evil, referrred to in the Apocalypse as the battle with God and Magog. Christians will participate in that confrontation becasue there will be no secret Rapture before it. Our comfort rests in Him who we already know as the Victor..and that's the reassurance St.Paul offers here.

As to the details of the "man of lawlessness", "the son of perdition", we don't really know who or what these expressions indicate other than a forceful evil adversary of God actively deceiving many of God's people in the world. It could refer to a uniquely evil individual like that of the "antichrist" in St.John or could refer to all the forces of evil ( a system) that Satan uses to pursue his ends. St.Paul stresses that this "man of lawlessness", "the son of perdition" is so brazen that "he takes his seat in the temple of God".  That is, he is going to proclaim himself/itself to be God and insist on divine worship.  "By taking the seat in the Temple of God" means he's going to somehow subvert the worship of the true God.  

Now, let's go to the Greek word for temple, which is naos. St.Paul never once uses naos to designate the Temple of the Jews in Jerusalem (which is hieron 1Cor.9:13). When St.Paul uses naos, he's referring to New Covenant temples which could include either the Church or the individual Christian, both of which are New Covenant temples indwelt by the Holy SPirit. 1Cor. 3:16-17; 6:19; 2Cor. 6:16, and Eph. 2:21.

So, St.Paul, along with all the Christians, believed that Christ had predicted the the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple within their generation, but they never believed this destruction would leave the world without any Temple. The new temple was God's spiritual Temple, the Church, with Jesus Christ her Eternal Priest. St.Paul always used the word naos in the New Covenant context....He understood the New Testament Chruch as the new Temple...and according to their writings so did the Fathers of the Chruch.

This passage concerning the antichrist and the details of his progress still remains a mystery. However, to believe St.Paul taught a future literal, physical rebuilding of the Jerusalem Temple is very poor proof text of Rapturist's beliefs.

AD POSTS:

Who are the Christians who believe that Jesus will return for the purpose of literally rebuilding the Jerusalem Temple?

Just to be clear, both the Church and Sacred Scripture teach that Christ will return on "the Day of the Lord" which will come like a thief in the night. No one but God the Father knows when. Unlike His first Advent, as a baby born of the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem, Christ's Second Coming (Parousia) will be unmistakable and gloriously public. And no one will escape.

First, Christ's return will win the victory. 2Thess. 2:8, Just as antichrist and his forces are surrounding the camp of the saints, fire will come down from heaven and consume them. Apoc. 20:9. Our Lord will appear and "slay him with his breath and destroy him by His appearing  and His coming."

From there the Resurrection will follow....whether we are dead or alive at the Christ's Second Advent, Everyone will be raised and then comes the Final Judgment. Christ will judge the living and the dead. The wicked will be separated from God forever and the eternal life will be granted to the righteous. Some will spend eternity in Hell and some will spend will be in God's presence forever.

That's it....no rebuilding the Jerusalem Temple...no future millenium...none of that stuff.

SODAIHO POSTS:

Good response KFC. Only thing I would change is I'd call them irreligious Jews or Revolutionary Jews...they are the hard bitten ones who witnessed Jesus' miracles of healing lepers, making the blind see, raising the dead, forgiving sin, etc. and still made Him out to be the enemy and destroyer of the Temple and of the Law. Vah! Vah! Vah! Thou who are the Christ, the Way, the Truth and the Life. Vah!  Thou who are the Christ, the King of Isreal. Vah! When Pilate asked, shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, we (the Jewish people) have no king but Ceasar...and from that moment on Judaism was wed to the state and has been ever since.

LEAUKI POSTS:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Talmud,  "reworked" Scripture?  

SODAIHO POSTS:

KFC POSTS: #192

   LEAUKI POSTS: #195

Very interesting and I agree without doubt with your concluding statement. ...might even cause all out war?

 Why, if Jewish law and God's law prohibits the rebuilding, would Jews have a "right" to rebuild it? 

Also, if there is Scripture, could you cite the texts where God's law prohibits rebuilding the Temple?   

Indeed. And if he comes back and does the things the Messiah is supposed to do, he might still qualify.

You have to understand that you are a weird Christian and quite different from all the Catholics I know (and I live in Ireland) and the other American Christians I have met (like KFC).

Most Christians (that is perhaps all of them but you, as you seem to have different beliefs from all of them) believe that Jesus was the Messiah and will return. From this follows that, if it is true, he will return and rebuild the Temple, as that is what was prophecied.

Yes, it would. But not because of anything in Islam, Judaism, or Christianity, but simply because the PLO and Hamas and other groups use ANYTHING as a reason for war.

Different authorities. There is no earthly authority that can prohibit Jews from doing what they want in their holy city (it has been tried but the Jews are now back and able to defend themselves).

Jewish belief is the only limit. Jews believe that G-d prohibits it and that's why they don't do it. I have the right to eat pork too, but don't do it.

Ask a rabbi. I don't know these things. The Israeli Chief Rabbinate says so and that is good enough for me. I am sure they know where to look. (And it's walking on the ground, not specifically rebuilding that is forbidden.)

Goodness,

As I read through these posts I wonder what is the motivation. How far away from daily religious life they are. Study is one thing, gleeful prognostication based in snippets of text is quite another. It does nothing but keep the prognosticator in his or her head. 

It is best to study scripture, in my opinion, as a guide for living in this world. We should not study for getting a good seat in the next, but rather, for the sake of making this world a better world for all of life, including God.

All of this imagining of when the Christian Jesus will "return" does nothing if Christians wait.  Jews are commanded by God to make themselves holy and this process is a process of developing chesed, lovingkindness, and tzadik, justice, and t'filah, (prayer turned toward an inward assessment in order to make ourselves acceptable to God).  All of this has to do with the here and now, which, Lula, is God's here and now in God's world.

Be well

My motivation is study of specific texts and defending Judaism (and Islam, of no Muslims are here to speak up). My motivation is also to correct misunderstandings about Judaism and scripture.

I like having texts pointed out to me so I know what to focus on. KFC does a good job when it comes to that.

Being confronted with specific Biblical texts does miracles for my knowledge of Hebrew and seeing Bible texts in Aramaic helps a lot with understanding differences between Semitic languages.

Does it have anything to do with religion? No.

Will it help me understand G-d better? No.

Those things are the domains of practice and spirituality. But I view religion as a part of life rather than a focal point of my existence and spirituality as something that one has to have a talent for.

And an excellent motivation I might add.  It is strange to me that you do not see this effort as allowing you to get closer to God or that you don't even see it as religious.  In effect you are like a biblical/talmudic scholar examining closely the meanings, but resist absorbing them into your heart?

Be well.

Hello Lula,  No. Talmud is a continuous study and application of Torah to living in the everyday world.  For a simple example, God commands us not to light a fire on Shabbat.  Today we have electric fire made by the flick of a switch.  Is this a violation of the commandment?   Talmudic discussion would turn this question inside out trying to discover both the actual meaning of the scripture itself, but also how to apply it in changing times.

Be well.

It is an activity that can be religious but it can also be done for other reasons. I wouldn't call debunking Christian myths a religious activity.

The wisdom in the Tanakh is true regardless of whether its author is G-d. Believing that G-d is the author is a mechanism to make us pay more attention to the law. It is not necessary if the law in itself is seen as valuable.

My personal belief is that G-d doesn't care as much if we keep the laws but cares if we are good people. Study of Torah is perhaps necessary to be a good Jew but certainly not to be a good human being. But debunking Christian myths does not bring me closer to G-d.

Not at all. I do absorb but I don't need the belief that G-d is behind those words. If the words are wise, it doesn't matter if they come directly from G-d or not. I believe that the (Hebrew) Bible is the word of G-d (transmitted via human authors including Moses). But I also believe that studying those words because of who the ultimate author is shows disrespect to His abilities. It would mean accepting authority over wisdom.

If I were to become as smart as Einstein and published an essay about nuclear fusion, solving all related problems, I would like people to study the essay because the points I make are valid, not because of my authority (if I had any).

Similarly I believe people should study Torah because of the wisdom it contains, not because it is the word of G-d.

Belief in G-d is faith, but the Torah is Jewish law and fact. Whether the author is ultimately G-d I cannot say. But the wisdom in it does not depend on faith in a god. We can see the disadvantage of lawlessness everywhere around us.

Studying Torah because it is the word of G-d means ignoring out the reason G-d Himself gave to study it: the existence of the message is the reason to read and study the message. It it weren't, there would be no message; and G-d could have just forced upon us an inability to disbelieve.

Very wise and very probably true.

Note that maintaining a fire does not necessarily fall under the prohibition. There is a (small) Jewish sect (the Karaites) who believe that even making use of a fire on Shabbath is against G-d's law. They sit in the cold on Saturday.

The word used is "malaakha" which translates as "work" but is really the feminine second object noun of a root that means "to send (a message containing an order)". The masculine version ("malaakh") means "angel" (i.e. "messenger"). The root (now lost as a word) for "send (a message containing an order") is Lamed Alef Kaf.

There is a Yiddish word "malokhen" which described hard work for money.

I read the prohibition as prohibiting creative and productive work that one gets paid for. On Shabbath we are supposed to taste the world to come and not do work for other people.

And I think that the law interpreted like that makes a lot of sense.

I take it these sects restrict themselves to warmer climates?

If I were to try that where I live, my pipes would be busted!

They live in Israel and California.

Always wondered how nightfall-related laws work near the north pole.

Leuki posts:

KFC posts:

I will sometimes type in Word because it is easier for me to organize my response.  Having a spell check (yes I know firefox does this too but for some reason hasn't been reliable), and also grammar check sometimes comes in handy.  Secondly if I am responded to multiple comments on separate pages this allows me to navigate the forum without losing what I previously typed. 

My apologies for the inconveniences!

LOL! Its enough to make you want to convert, right?

I am impressed with your kabbalist approach here, Sabrina.  I also agree that there is an argument to be made regards creative work v. manual labor or labor for pay.  Some modern Orthodox are, I think, coming to this and most Conservative movement Jews.  Us Reform Jews are out there anyway.

Here's the thing about those divine sparks:  everytime you do something kind for another, everytime you perform a "mitzvah", everytime you do something to make the world a better place, a shard returns to God.  It is said that in this way we are God's partners in healing the world.

Be well.

"Greek Jesus"? Our Lord Jesus Christ was a Jew.

Does this have something to do with the fact that it was the Greek Septuagint that was used by the Jews of Alexandria, Asia Minor, Greece, Italy, as well as by the Rabbis of Palestine at the time of the coming of Christ?

The Greek Septuagint mindset IS the Hebraic mindset of the Scriptures...and that's the one the Infant Chruch used then and Catholics still use today.  

You say it's sad that Christians reject the Torah and Biblical Judaism....This isn't true of Catholics and Catholicism. We fully accept the Torah as the inspired Word of God and understand Hebraic "Biblical" Judaism for what it was.. a gradual unfolding of God's true religion----- by sending Moses the lawgiver, and after him a series of prophets to explain the law and to perophecy the coming of the Messias. Christ, not Greek, but a Jew fulfilled these prophecies to a "T" and taught the perfect law of God. Hebraic Judaism before Christ was imperfect and preparatory-----that found its perfect fulfillment in the religion of Christ, Christianity. 

This is simply not true.  Many Jews became Hellenized, that is, they spoke Greek, read Greek, so the Greek translation of the Torah was popular, just as the English translation is used in English countries, the Spanish in Spanish countries, and the German in Germany.  At the time, there was a real struggle to not become Hellenized.  Ptolemy was a bit more tolerant than the Selucid empires and ordered the Torah translated into Greek.  But in general Greek styles were either rewarded or Jewish celebrations and folkways followed with sentances of death, under Antiochus, for example. Josephus documents the pervasiveness of Greek influence.  But not everyone thought this was a good thing.  Jews were straying from the Torah.  The Maccabees rose up in revolt. And they restored the Jewish monarchy, unfortunately with one of their own rather than through the house of David.  

The very fact that there was such a massive revolt speaks volumes against the notion that the Septaugint is any sort of Hebrew mindset. 

Be well. 

You said this much better than I would of.

LULA POSTS:

SODAIHO AND AD,

What I said is true and if you'll study it further you'll find there are reasons for things.

The original Old Testament Scripture was written in Hebrew and by the year 285 BC. when the Septuagint was commissioned, Hebrew was on the decline, all but a dead language. Hebrew wasn't spoken and hardly known by the Jews outside of Palestine. During the days of the second Temple, Aramaic was the language spoken by them and a translator stood beside the reader in the Synagogue to translate the Hebrew into Aramaic.  

In Greek was the world language when the Septuagint translation was made. Septuagint means 70 and 70 translators, learned in Hebrew were sent to Alexandria by the Jewish High Priest Eleaser of Jerusalem at Ptolemy Philadelphus behest to translate into Greek all 46 Books of inspired Hebrew text then extant.  

According to Philo and Josephus' writings which I find amazing is the 70 translators worked independently and without consulting each other, the translations were all found to be exactly alike.    

As I said, the Septuagint was made in the 3rd century before Christ and was used and accepted by the Jews everywhere. All this time, they had no problems with it whatsoever never questioned its authenticity and integrity. The Septuagint enabled the knowledge of the OLd Law and its Divine prophecies to be spread among the Jews and the Gentiles who didn't know the Hebrew language. It is in this sense of the Septuagint's historic standing that I say the Greek Septuagint mindset is the Hebraic mindset of the Scriptures.

So, all was well with the Jews using the Septuagint until after the Messias came into His own and the early Christian Chruch adopted it, and that's when some of the Jews began to denounce it.

Here's something else to consider since you brought up the Machabees and we are discussing the connection btween the Septuagint and the Hebrew mindset.

As you must know, Chanukah, the Feasts of Lights, centers in the story of the Machabees which is the last 2 books of the Septuagint. Chanukah was instituted by Judas Machagees as a memorial of the re-dedication of the sanctuary which was defiled by Antiochus Epiphanes. The Machabees were martyrs for Hebraic Judaism.