LULA POSTS:

Didn't God tell Moses to make a statue of a fiery serpent and set it on a pole in Numbers? Didn't God command the making of statues in Exodus 25: 18-20? And how about the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the Ark of the Covenant of the Lord? 1Chr. 28: 18-19? There's more if this hasn't convinced.

And what about statues or images that represent God Himself? I'm thinking the Book of the Apocalypse and something similiar in Daniel 7:9, "As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was ancient of days took his seat. His rainment was white as snow and the hair of his head was like pure wool. His throne was fiery flames, it's wheels were burning fire." I'll betcha even Protestants make depictions of God the Father based on this description of Him when teaching OT prophecies.

If not, why not....for images, pictures, icons, and statues are a great teaching tool.

KFC,

The Holy Bible itself makes clear that the "Word of God", i.e all that has been divinely revealed for our salvation, is not limited to the written Word alone. God's revealed Word exists in both written and oral form and both require acceptance and obedience.

How do Protestants know with certainity which books are contained in the Holy Bible?

As you know the Holy Bible did not, nor could not determine itself. It didn't determine its own contents. You might say the Holy Spirit and of course this is true, however stated alone begs the question, for the numerous inspired writing that make up the BIble were not placed in between the covers by some magical action. Living men were used and guided by the HS to determine which ones of the many epistles and writings would be placed together and which ones should be left out.

So, answer that question correctly and you'll have your question answered about the Holy Rosary which btw is a beautfful form of meditative and contemplative prayer. The prayers embodied in the Holy Rosary were composed by Christ Himself, in the case of the Our Father, and by the Angel Gabriel, St.Elizabeth, found in St.Luke. The Council of Ephesus in the 5th century completed the second half of the Hail Mary.

Praying the Rosary devotion is loving contemplatiion and meditation upon the  mysteries of our Redemption.  The 15 mysteries-----the Annunciation, the Visistation, the Nativity, the Presentation, the Finding in the Temple, the Agony, the Scourging, the Crowning with thorns, the Carrying of the Cross, the Crucifixation, the Resurrection, the Acsension, the Descent of the Holy Spirit, the Assumption and the Coronation of the Blessed Virgin-----are an excellent summary of the Gospel.

LULA POSTS:

C'mon, KFC! I'm not reading in context???.... Even fair-minded Protestant commentators, whom I can name by the dozen, know the context and word "rock" refers to St.Peter. 

Catholics don't believe one Rock excludes the other rock......Christ is the Eternal Rock, the Cornerstone, and that this passage tells us that He selected Peter as the rock-foundation, the secondary rock upon which He built His visible Chruch.

 The unique place of primacy Peter had is found in 3 texts...StMatt. 16: 13-19, St.luke 22:31 and St.John 21:15. Something big was happening when God changed men's names....Study St.John 1:42 and you'll learn of Simon meeting Jesus for the first time. ON that occasion, Christ declared that Simon would be called Kepha, the rock. Jesus changing Peter's name is significant. By calling him, "Kepha" the Aramaic word for rock, Peter means rock.   That took place 2 years before the meeting in Cesarea Philippi, where for the first time in human history, a man Simon was given the name of a rock, Kepha, to signify he was the earthly head of Christ's Chruch while Christ was the Eternal Rock. This is enforced by the indisputable fact that the "keys of the kingdom" which signify power, authority, jurisdiction, such have been exercised by every Bishop of Rome from Peter to Benedict XVI.

lula posts:

KFC,

you've got the wrong interpetation of Scripture going here. ....it soothes the Protestant denial of St. Peter as first head of the CC and Christ putting him there!

Your mention that Peter denied Christ 3 times before His Crucifixation is true and meaningful...he certainly proved he was a weak sinner.  After this Peter is asked to proclaim his love for the Lord 3 times which clearly and painfully goes back to his triple denial. Scripture goes on and we learn that Peter almost immediately recognizes his sin and repents....he's given the opportunity to rehabilitate himself and does and is subsequently given the charge to tend Christ's flock and to nurture His people.

If you pull together various texts, we can easily see that no other leader of the Infant Chruch is accorded such attention as St. Peter in his very special role. In St.Luke, Jesus tells Peter that Satan has asked for the disciples that he may sift them all like wheat....And Jesus says that He has prayed that Peter's faith may never fail. That's significant the Jesus prays for Peter alone and commissions him to care for the other disciples. "You in turn must strengthen your brothers."

From here we go to St. John 21:15-17, and get to what you brought up. The Risen Christ asks Peter 3 times if he loves Him. Peter responds affirmatively in each instance, and is given the 3 injunctions by Christ "Feed My Lambs, Tend My sheep, Feed My sheep." We know Jesus is the Good Shepherd caring for His flock, and this is a clear analogy between the roles of Christ and of Peter by Christ instructing him to tend and feed His sheep. Christ was designating Peter as the shepherd of His flock on earth.

You see, I think when KFC and Lula talk like this they are losing sight of something: their focus, their responsibility.  Whether its Jesus tending flocks or God, whether its a cross, a crucifix, or a Torah scroll, in the end, if we don't see through the symbol to the Universal, we are missing the boat entirely.  

Apparently, with Catholics, they do not see that making a graven image of who they call God is a sin. Apparently, with Protestants, the same is true of little baby Jesus in mangers. I know Buddhas was no god, therefore an image of him has nothing to do with this discussion.

I don't know.  I really don't think what people believe so much is the issue as much as their willingness to test their beliefs for the truth.  And by this I hardly mean text or interpretation.  I mean the only true test, a living test. The test of life itself and how we live it according to our faith and our practices,

Be well.

Absolutely Sodaiho.  Couldn't agree with you more.  It all comes down to how we live out what we believe.  It's when the "said" faith becomes real or not real.  What we say we believe is nothing in comparison to how we manifest that belief. 

But I'm not losing focus or responsiblility.   I know what the focus is but here for discussion sake, when the CC gets pushed  on me or anyone in my hearing I push back.  I'm a defender of the scriptures the same Luther was in the 15th Century and therein lies the rub with Lula.  My responsibility will always be to speak the truth.  I hope I'm doing it in love because that is always what I would hope comes across. 

My life verse is Jeremiah 20:7-9.  Yes, a Jewish scripture not one of the NT as many usually pick to represent them. 

This belief didn't come into being until AFTER the resurrection.  Answers had to be given for why the so-claimed Messiah was not accepted and the religious Jews reworked the scriptures and placed a nation where a human Messiah was to be.  In the first century Jesus was asked if he were the one.  John the Baptist was also asked this.  Was he the one they were expecting? 

There is.  According to my Jewish friend here who visits Israel twice a year, he said they're all ready.  They've got everything but permission to do so.  Also according to scripture in more than one place the third temple is to be built and will be the center of last days prophecy. 

How can anyone NOT SEE that the Image of a man {Christ} nailed to a cross is a Graven Image is beyong me. What do you believers see as a graven Image anyway? define it for me please.

G-d is not a person. G-d is G-d, and has no human characteristics nor limitations.

You love ice cream? OK, then love G-d.

That seems like a weird argument to me because it bypasses the more easily available answer: Jesus didn't rebuild the Temple and did not make peace in Israel. Those two points aline disqualify him as the Messiah according to Jewish belief.

I don't see why there would be reason to "rework" scripture to allow for non-acceptance of another failed Messiah candidate.

Jewish law prohibits Jews from even walking on the Temple Mount, let alone pray or build structures there until the Messiah comes. (Even Jesus is not currently here.)

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/israel/images/jerusalem/temple-mount/temple-mount-signs-cc-jillyfish16.jpg

Muslims would also riot of the Temple were to be rebuilt. Like Christians Muslims believe that Jesus was the Messiah and will eventually return. And like Jews Muslims believe that the Temple will be rebuild by the Messiah. If anybody should attempt to rebuild the Temple before Jesus' return, there will be a war.

Muslims refer to Jerusalem as Al-Quds ("The Holy")* and to the Temple Mount as Masjid Al-Aqsa ("The Furthest Place of Worship")**. Muhammed believed that the Kaaba in Mecca was built by Adam and rededicated by Abraham and Yishmael and that Mount Moria in Jerusalem was the holy place for Abraham and his other son, Yitzhaq. Since Islam sees itself as a universal religion (like Christianity) both "Places of Worship", the nearest (Mecca) and the farthest (Jerusalem) are important as places where the prophets prayed. To rebuild the Temple now or in the foreseeable future would upset many.

I do believe that Jews have the right to rebuild it, because Jerusalem is the Jewish capital. But I also believe that Jews should follow Jewish law, which prohibits it. It should be noted that it is (believed to be) G-d's law that prohibits rebuilding the Temple, NOT Arab or Muslim feelings about it.

Notes:

* Hebrew for "holy" is "qadosh" (Quf Dalet Shin). Arabic for "holy" is "quds" (Quf Dalet Sin). Shin <-> Sin is a regular sound shift between Hebrew and Arabic. Sin and Shin are the same letter in Hebrew.

**  The Hebrew root for "worship" is SGD (Samekh Gimel Dalet). Samekh doesn't exist in Arabic and is written as Sin instead. Hence the Arabic root for "worship" is SJD (Sin Gimel Dalet). Quranic Arabic pronounces Gimel as /j/ (like "g" in "George"). "Masjid" is Mem Sin Gimel Dalet (ignoring letters for vowels that are not part of the root). A Mem in front of a root creates an object noun (type depends on vowels), in this case "place of". English "mosque" derives from "masjid" ("place of worship"). "Al-Aqsa Mosque" did not originally refer to a mosque building but to the fact that the Temple Mount was a place of worship for Abraham.

The two are intermingled KFC from my POV.  While you have come a long ways from the CC's position you are still stuck in a Greek mindset and not the Hebraic mindset of the Scriptures.  This includes the Greek Jesus that corresponds with the replacement theology we see today.

It is really sad that Christians reject the Torah and their forefathers of Faith (ie Biblical Judaism).  In doing so you are also rejecting the blessing that are apart of that covenant (not to be confused with the covenant of Salvation).

While you stated that Jews are blinded of the Messiah I would also add that Christians are blinded of the Torah.

KFC, where are the believing gentiles (which is a misnomer) going to be during the millennial reign?

you never responded to me AD about that scripture in Matthew about John the Baptist being the end of the law.  The NT scriptures are clear starting with Jesus (after John the forerunner) that he came with a New Covenant.  Before he did so, he wept over Jerusalem saying:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that killed the prophets and stoned them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings and you would not! Behold your house is left to you desolate.  For I say to you, you shall not see me henceforth till you shall say Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord" (the last Day of Atonement when they rip their clothes in anguish).  Matt 23

I respectfully disagree.  We don't reject the Torah at all.  It's like I keep saying it's very instrumental to the NT as well.  The New Covenant comes out of the Old Covenant.  They go together. 

No AD.  I don't believe in the replacement theory.  I believe there are specific plans for the Gentiles and specific plans for the Jews.  The Christians are NOT the new Israel even tho some like to think so.  It's not biblical.  Besides all that of course the Gentiles are not going to have the Hebraic mindset.  We were never called to be Jews AD.  What you speak of is the same problem the Jewish Believers had with the Gentile Believers in the first century.   The Apostles, especially Paul wrote much about this.  The Gentiles were never called to be Jewish. 

Why is it a Misnomer?  The believers both Jew and Gentile will rein with Christ in the millennial, Rev 20:4. 

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."  Galatians 3:28

It's not about nationality or denomination but all to do with our position in Christ. 

How is it God's law?  Is it coming from God or from Jewish thought?   In Daniel 9:27 we see Daniel's prediction that there will be a future temple after the temple is destroyed in 70 AD.  We see this also in Matthew 24 and 2 Thess 2.  So Daniel, Jesus and Paul are predicting this future temple will be built.  I see no such law in the OT or NT.  But even if you're right, God is going to allow this to happen for this to  play itself out.  This temple will also be destroyed in the end anyhow. 

how can that be when they've already had two temples there?  Also many are there daily praying at the wailing wall.  According to my Jewish teacher he says there is some discussion that the Mosque thought to be on the Temple Mount now is not the exact location.  It may be a few feet away and there is some possiblility of the temple being side by side with the Golden Domed Mosque sitting there now. 

I don't see that as far fetched especially with Obama and others trying to make both a Palestinian State and Jewish State out of Israel.  There is going to be a false peace set up soon in Israel.  That's the next step and the rebuilding of the temple will be part of that.  Wait and see.  I betcha we're not far from this.   

I understand this. The reason is because the Jews did not accept him when he came.  Their expectations did not fit this lowly Messiah even though Christ fullfilled 109 prophecies in the OT.  He told them to search the scriptures.  He proved who he was by his words, deeds and miracles.   Jesus even said he didnt' come to bring peace but a sword.  The Prince of Peace first must become the man of sorrows. 

The OT is filled with  predictions of two comings.  That's why he's called both the Lion and the lamb.  He's called a man of sorrows and The Prince of Peace. 

God's plan did not fit the plans of men.  Plain and simple. 

For instance Daniel would be a good book for you to read.  In Daniel 2 we see the prediction of the world powers to come. We can line up what Daniel said with secular history and it fits perfectly.  First came Babylon.  Then the Medes-Persians, then Greece under Alexander and then Rome.  Then the last worldly kingdom during the end times would be set up by the AC to come. 

 In those last days (could be soon) God in heaven would set up another Kingdom which shall never be destroyed.  This kingdom will not be left to others but instead will break all the other kingdoms to pieces.  This is the second coming but I'm sure the Jews of the first century and prior expected Jesus to fulfill this then.   They only saw the first coming. 

There are 109 predictions of the first coming (which were fulfilled) and 234 on His second coming.  Just as the first coming predictions were filled so too will be the second set. 

A group of seminary students got together and looked at the chances of these prophecies being fulfilled in just one man.  The chance for just 8 OT predictions to be fulfilled in one person was one in 10,000,000,000. 

MM posts: #193

I see the Crucifix (Christ on the Cross) as a sacred image, not a "graven image" or more correctly not a "graven thing" as used in God's First Commandment given to us in Exodus 20:2-6.  

So, the answer to your question goes to correctly understanding what God commands and what He forbids in the First Commandment.  

Here it is from the Douay Rheims version which I believe is the most faithful and accurate translation of the original Hebrew.

2 "I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, not the likeness of anything that is in Heaven above or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, to the thrid and fourth generations of them that hate me, and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments."

Since all Catholics are to avoid committing idolatry by keeping and obeying the First Commandment, it's important that we continually keep in view these words given in Exodus 20. Having, making, honoring and venerating the Crucifix, or pictures (ornate icons), or statues of angels, of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of the Saints is not forbidden by this Commandment. They are lawful. The Commandment doesn't forbid the arts of painting, engraving or sculpture for the Scriputres inform us that God Himself commanded certain images to be made and used for religious purposes. 

The correct interpretation is that graven images or graven things are prohibited from being made only inasmuch as they are used as deities to receive adoration and worship. 

So, it's not so much what a "graven image" or "graven thing" is......it's that we commit the sin of idolatry if we have them or make them to worship them,  for then they would indeed become "strange gods".

That's what a "sacred image" is: a graven image of a god.

You respectfully disagree, just like the Jews respectfully disagree with Jesus being the Messiah (hmm, coincidence?).

I know from our previous discussions that you agree some of the feasts are yet to be fulfilled your POV is unique in comparison to the generalities of "Christianity."

KFC, here is the crux of the issue.  The New Covenant is singular.  How many covenants are mentioned in the Old Testament?  Certainly more than one.

Before the "New Covenant" Israel had to go through one earthly High Priest for the atoning of sins.  Is Jesus not the new High Priest?  In doing away with the Old Testament he would have then done away with his own Cohen Gadol (High Priest) position that Hebrews says HE retains.

NOTE: I'm not ignoring your Matt comment as I think it is tied with the above.

Then what is your take about Romans 11?

My understanding is that Gentiles are grafted into the Olive tree.  That tree is Israel (not a 'new' Israel either).  That root is Jesus.

I know the Gentiles weren't going to know or have a Hebraic mindset.  This is why I argue that Paul focused just the beginning steps to not overwhelm them (salvation and a few commands found in Acts 15). 

I respectfully disagree with you KFC about not being called to be Jews (Israelites).  As I stated above Romans 11 to me clearly outlines the grafting into Israel.  Rejecting this grafting in is more specifically what, I was referring to about the rejecting the blessing of the father's of your faith (not to be misunderstood as Christian but of the Hebraic roots).

Jesus states ONE aspect of this blessing in Matthew 5:19

 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (NASB)

Note: that it doesn’t say if you don’t do these commands (Torah) than you don’t get into heaven.  This blessing of being called great in the kingdom is also attainable to Gentiles as well.

A gentile is a pagan or heathen who is WITHOUT G-D.  Over the course of history additional definitions were added but ultimately contradicts the root of its very definition.

Can a single root produce two different trees (reference to comment with Romans 11)?

Lula,

I saw a program back awhile that showed how these graven images (or sacred in your view) were manufactured and packaged.  It's a huge money making venture for the RCC.  I believe that's alot to do with this.  These graven images are for profit and the poor simple Catholics have bought into this.  I believe you when you say you're not worshipping a statue but I do believe your RCC is manufacturing graven images to bow down to and pray to.  It's all about money which as you know can be nothing more than an idol that can very well get between a person and God. 

It kind of reminds me of that section in Acts when Paul was preaching in Ephesus and the pagans were enraged because their statues of Diana weren't selling.  The reason?    Because Paul was preaching Christ.  This is what they said about that time:

"For a certain man named Demetrius a silversmith which made silver shrines for Diana brought no small gain unto the craftsmen (made lots of money) whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation and said, Sirs, you know that by this craft we have our wealth. Moreover you see and hear that not alone at Ephesus but almost throughout Asia this Paul has persuaded and turned away much people saying that there are no gods which are made with hands; So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised and her magnificence should be destroyed whom all Asia and the world worshipps.  And when they heard these sayins they were full of anger."  Acts 19. 

The RCC has always been about if you can't beat em, join em.  I'm wondering how long it took for them to start manufacturing their own idols/images  to replace the ones of Zeus, Jupiter and Diana? 

LEAUKI POSTS #195

Jesus was the Christ, the Messias, the Anointed One prophecied by the OT prophets.

Jesus, in fact, did "rebuild the Temple"; only it's not the Temple (i. e. the physical building that was destroyed for good in 70AD) that you all have in mind. Jesus Himself is the Temple. He foretold of the destruction of the Temple (His death) and the raising of it in 3 days (His Resurrection).

As you must know, the Jerusalem Temple had replaced the previous sanctuary which the Israelites carried around in the wilderness and was the place selected by God during the Old Covenant to express His presence to His people in a special way. When Christ expelled the traders from the Temple clearly showed that He is the Messias foretold by the prophets. And the Jews knew it and that's why afterward some of them demanded He give them a sign of His power and as proof of His authority. And Christ said, referring to His own body, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." St.John 2:19.

So, while the Jewish authorities tried to turn Christ's reply into an attack on the Temple which merits the death penalty.  The sign or miracle He offered them will be His own Resurrection on the 3rd day.

Folks, Christ Himself is the Temple.

All this talk about rebuilidng the Temple is nothing but endtime speculation. 

The battle we are all presently engaged and will culminate at the end of the world when Christ returns His Second time as Judge is a spirtual one. This spiritual battle of which we are all a part and no one can escape is choosing between good and evil, choosing between Christ and antichrist, choosing between eternal life over eternal death.

We are created by God for God. In His Infinite Love, Mercy and Justice, He has revealed His salvation plan and path of which we are to follow if we are to attain eternal life in Heaven.

Sorry for the triple posting....

Nuber

Adventure-Dudette (AD's wife) says:

Romans talks about being grafted in, and i think many people miss it. We all need to be humble because we have an opportunity to be grafted in (both Jews who were cut off and Gentiles who came into the walk) whether it is Gentiles who just came into the walk with G-d or whether it is Jewish people who have been cut off because of their disobedience. We all need to have a humble heart becase G-d gives us an opportunity to be grafted in to the root - Yeshua (Jesus) and to the native olive tree - Israel.

There seemed to be a problem with ADs last post?

I'm not following, did I mess something up I can't see?  Looks fine to me.

He might be your Messiah, but he is not the Messiah of Judaism. We have been through the prophecies you refer to. Your interpretation depends on faulty translations and leaps.

Judaism has certain requirements for a Messiah. I'll simply repeat two of them until the second coming.

Jesus didn't rebuild the Temple and did not make peace in Israel. Those two points alone disqualify him as the Messiah according to Jewish belief.

I'm posting this as a test......as I am experiencing a problem with being able to pull up any comments beyond AD's # 201.  I see from the main page that there are 209 comments listed, but I can only go to AD's 201 comment.

Did that fix it?