I'm not sure but think TeacherCreature may have deleted his blog.
Since I am very interested in further discussion with Leauki and others regarding St. Matthew 2 concerning the wise men and whether or not they were Zoroastrian, I hope MM won't mind if I post it here.
Here it is......................
LEAUKI POSTS: #79
I would imagine the Christian custom of giving gifts for Christmas derives from a Zoroastrian custom, as represented in your Bible by the Zoroastrian wise men who visited Jesus on his birthday.
LULA POSTS:
Show how they were Zoroastrians...
LEAUKI POSTS: #102
Matthew 2 says the three wise men were Magoi (in the Greek text, I believe). The Magoi were the Iranian Zoroastrian priest tribe/caste, similar to the Levites and Kohanim in Judaism.
Zoroastrians believe in the same god as Jews do, and many of the same legends. For example, since the time of Cyrus they agreed with the notion that G-d sent a prophet Moses to Israel and commanded the Jews to live in the holy land. That's why Cyrus and Darius financed rebuilding the Temple and sent the Jews back to Israel. That's why Cyrus is called a messiah in the Tanakh.
The entire story about the star of Bethlehem revolves around the fact that Magoi were into astrology (Judaism is absolutely not, ever wondered where the star element came from?). The three wise men, who followed a star, were astrologers from the east. Early Christianity made lots of attempts to create a continuity from Jewish belief to Jesus' birth. And Zoroastrian priests are a good authority. If the rabbis reject Jesus, then support from the Iranian priesthood would come in handy. (Whether there really were any such priests on the scene, we don't know. Only Matthew mentions them.)
It never occurred to me that anybody, let alone a Christian, would not know that the three men were Zoroastrians. What did you think their role was?
The idea of bringing presents, and the type of presents, was Zoroastrian practice. That's probably where Christianity took the Christmas gifts tradition from, in case you are still wondering. (Jewish customs of gift-giving at Purim derive from charity and the gifts are usually foods.)
Matthew used Zoroastrian priests like Muhammed used Jewish rabbis. Both the Christian Bible and the Quran resort to external but accepted authorities to make their point.
Three wise men arriving in Judaea from the east, carrying traditional Iranian gifts; they are astrologers and are referred to as Zoroastrian priests (Magoi) by Matthew, they believe in the one G-d and expected a Messiah. And it never occured to you that they could be Zoroastrians?
Thank you Leauki for answering my inquiry. Honestly, it never occurred to me the wise men were Zoroastrian....and although this is helpful, and interesting, you still haven't quite convinced me. I am positively open to learning more.
Let's discuss.
Leauki posts: 102
Matthew 2 says the three wise men were Magoi (in the Greek text, I believe).
To begin, St. Matthew was the only New Testament writer who didn't write in Greek. He wrote the Gospel in the original language of the Hebrews but we don’t know for sure whether it was in Aramaic or Hebrew.
From the Douay Rheims version, here are all the passages that pertain to the wise men from the East: St.Matthew 2: 1-2, 7-13; 16.
"When Jesus therefore was born in Bethlehem of Juda, in the days of King Herod, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem. 2 Saying, Where is He that is born king of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the east, and are come to adore Him.
7 Then Herod, privately calling the wise men, learned diligently of them the time of the star which appeared to them; 8 And sending them into Bethlehem, said: Go and diligently inquire after the Child, and when you have found Him, bring me word again, that I also may come and adore Him. 9 Who having heard the king, went their way; and behold the star which they had seen in the east, went before them, until it came and stood over where the Child was. 10 And seeing the star they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. 11 And entering in the house, they found the Child with Mary His Mother, and falling down they adored Him; and opening their treasures, they offered Him gifts; gold, frankincense and myrrh. 12 And having received an answer in sleep that they should not return to Herod, they went back another way into their country. 13 And after they departed, behold an angel of the Lord appeared in sleep to Joseph, saying: Arise, and take the Child and His Mother, and fly into Egypt: and be there until I shall tell thee. For it will come to pass that Herod will seek the Child to destroy Him.
16 Then Herod perceiving that he was deluded by the wise men, was exceeding angry; and sending to have killed all the male children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the borders thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men."
Here it's plain that the inspired words of St. Matthew say nothing of the actual number of wise men nor is their homeland indicated..it just says from the East. That there were 3 and that they were Magi kings, sorcerers, astrologers, magicians, priests or Zoroastrians, Chaldean, Babylonian only comes from various traditions and various legends without uniformity or certainty.
Taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia, I note that the Magi and Zoroastrianism and the Magi of the Holy Bible seem to me to be two different things which if true indicates a world of theological difference.
The plural form of Magi is Magus from old Persian magu which designates a member of an ancient Near Eastern priestly caste. In the NT, there are two terms for Magi, (if my poor eyesight serves me, it looks like payos and payoi). The Payos sometimes has a bad sense of magician or sorcerer as in the case of Simon Magus in Acts. 8 and a Jewish false prophet named Bar-Jesus in Acts 13.
But the Magi "payoi" in St. Matthew are presented as wise or learned men of noble disposition since they were bearing gifts. If we look at Daniel 5:11, written around 600BC, it mentions “wise men, sorcerers (astrologers), Chaldeans, and soothsayers.” Some say since Babylon was noted for its astronomy, the magi, who were star gazers, probably came from there.
Now to the Magi and Zoroastrianism…
According to Herodotus, the Magi were a Median tribe who had peculiar customs such as not burying or burning their dead, the arts of astrology and magic of which the last took its name. They forbade the killing of certain animals but made obligatory the killing of others.
During the first years of Darius the Great’s reign (521-486 BC), when he was away conquering Egypt, the Magus Gaumata seized power. Darius returned and killed him and several other Magi…and this event was commemorated as an annual feast, “The Killing of the Magi”. Even so, the Magi influence grew and they obtained a religious monopoly to the point that it wasn’t permitted to offer sacrifice without the assistance of a Magi.
According to the Greeks the Magi were specialists in magic and astrology. The Magi called themselves disciples of Zoroaster and appropriated Zoroastrianism. This is why many Greek 5th-2nd century sources called Zoroaster a Magus.
The Magusaioi is a Semitic and Greek adaptation of the Iranian term magus, and it designates the “Hellenized Magi” “to whom a vast lore of pseudo science, written in Greek, was attributed. Ancient philosophers distinguished two kinds of magic….popular magic which is sorcery and Persian magic, which was a form of religion.
Upon reading this, I cannot see how the wise men of St. Matthew could have been the Magi of the Zoroastrian Herodotus was describing. They seem so out of harmony with the wise men who traveled East to bring gifts and adore the Christ-Child in Bethlehem….but I could be wrong.
JoeUser Forums
Stardock Forums
