The American Dream, but only for those on their way up

Oh, BTW, in building our dream house we are providing work for a whole lot of people and putting more tax dollars into our community.  We are far from the only ones to benefit.

About "fairness" as practiced in Europe.

In Germany, if you are unemployed, you receive free money from the state. That much is known.

If you own a house, they expect you to sell it and live of that money before you receive free money. Sounds fair?

But if you didn't buy a house but wasted all your money on trips to Mallorca, Disneyland, and other fun things, you receive free money.

I am not talking about the stupidity of the system encouraging people to waste money on vacations rather than invest into property. My point here is that one guy has to support himself while another guy does not, not depending on their income but only on the choices they made.

 

The American Dream has its downsides, I am sure, but if you are healthy and able-bodied I believe opportunity is all you need.

 

I read about him on a German news site. However, they just showed a picture of him and said he was a plumber, without mentioning anything about his business and taxes. In the article he was referred to as a typical McCain supporting low-life without much education.

 

Nice.

Jill, I think a lot of the negativity going on right now is due to resentment and jealousy.  I know *I* feel that.  Not necessarily that others have done well, but at the fact that it seems to be FLAUNTED in the news, just how wealthy the wealthy are, while the middle class (and below) are getting all this doomsday feedback making them fearful that they just won't be able to survive period, much less afford a vacation home or go on a European vacation.

I read an article recently on MSNBC from Newsweek that was just...disgusting...the author was compelling readers to offer sympathy and compassion for the super wealthy (who are now having to wear a $10,000 outfit more than once, just because they are worried about the economy) because they are losing not just money but oh, their identity and self-esteem. How sad.  How sad that their self-worth is tied up in lording their wealth over others and now they're worried about the security of that wealth.  Not that they'll ever have to live like a normal person, but you know, they might have to make a sacrifice or two and only live in super unbelievable luxury rather than super unbelievable incredible luxury.

I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the rich.  It's not about expecting anyone to pay or supporting tax increases so much as it's very annoying to carefully budget and have true financial concerns while listening to someone who will never have to clip coupons or put off dental work complain about how they are going to pay more in taxes all the while having more than they could ever spend.

Even though the wealthy pay an exhorbitant amount in taxes (and I'm not arguing that that's fair or correct...I believe we should be keeping our own money), the "burden" is really not on the rich.  They are fine.  The middle class, whose tax contributions get pish-poshed, actually FEEL the burden of their taxes even if the amount they are paying is less.  It's not just that it affects their lifestyle.  It can actually affect their ability to cover things like health care or retirement savings.

When gas prices go up and grocery prices go up, the rich don't need to fret.  I DO.  So, there is some resentment and jealousy there when I read about poor wealthy people and how worried they are and how much they're suffering.

I don't think it's personal toward you Jill, so much as just a seething resentment in general toward the attitudes of the wealthy in a time of financial uncertainty that threatens to crush the rest of us.

 

Do you think that all of the people that "the wealthy" care about are wealthy too?  I will tell you personally that although we are doing well financially (we've lost scary amounts in the market though), people we love, friends and family, aren't.  When the people I care about aren't doing "fine", I'm not doing fine.  Why shouldn't I be able to use my money to take care of the friends and family who were there for me all along the way?

I don't care if people can't "feel sorry" for the rich.  They don't need to.  The class warfare is a dangerous thing though.  Why do we need the government to play Robin Hood?  Why can't we come together in families and communities and make sure everyone is taken care of?

I have a friend who is battling colon cancer right now.  I would like to think that I can use my money on life saving treatment for her if need be.  If my parents need in home care or even a place to live some day, I should be able to keep my money and provide that for them.  These people have invested in me why shouldn't I be able to return the favor instead of having the government decide for me that someone else is more needy?

I didn't take anything from anyone to get what I have.  I had the same opportunities as most and fewer even than a lot.  I spent most of my life in lower to middle class.  That is why I am puzzled by this "us against them" class warfare.  We are all Americans.  We are so divided right now by class and political ideology that I seriously fear for the future of our country.

For me, this is not a topic I generally spend a lot of time thinking about, but lately it seems like I have been bombarded from all sides with it...online communities I visit, the news, friends, etc. are all talking about it. 

And what I am getting the most is complaints and fears from the wealthy.  I am sure it probably feels like to those with money that they are constantly hearing sob stories from the middle class and poor, so maybe it's more that that's what is standing out to me, but every day it's more of the same.

I think even people who don't take advantage of others, and who have worked heard to earn and build their wealth, and who are actually looking out for their fellow man (or woman) are getting this backlash because of how completely GARISH a lot of these news stories regarding the poor, suffering super wealthy. 

The media is DEFINITELY feeding this class warfare obsession.  And I personally feel like I am being sucked into it because I find myself feeling actually angry when I read these news stories, knowing that even though we are a hard-working, law-abiding, typical American family, our future is somewhat at the mercy of the whims and financial moves of others. 

 

Hello Jill, others,

 

I feel some degree of sympathy for you, you are taking a lot of hits of late.  I do have trouble with the characterization, as black and white, the notion that taxes are taking from the rich and giving to the undeserving poor.  It is a conservative Republican government that has led to record breaking deficits.  A war that costs us billions and will tax our future for decades, a willingness to spend, spend, spend, and yet try every which way to not pay the piper.  The equation is seriously out of whack.  I don't want to be taxed any more than you do, but I do think we as Americans, have an obligation to both take care of ourselves (not just our friends and family) and pay our bills.  If we can't afford billion dollar bombers and trillion dollar wars then so be it. 

It is ridiculous to claim that it is the poor who are driving us into economic disaster.  That's a sort of blame the victim game that conservatives have been playing for years.  It has worked until now.

Everyone should work hard and everyone should pay taxes.  But I am all about reducing tax breaks for the rich.  It disgusts me the quarterly profits of big oil when we are in such hurt as a nation.  It disgusts me that CEOs are getting golden parachutes while their companies are going down in flames. 

If there has been a class war, it has been those in power making it harder and harder for those without power to make a decent living, have health care, and enjoy our American dream.

Be well.

 

Well said Jill.  It sounds like you and Brad are alot like my husband and I.  We went without for many years trying to save for our future and we built a business together as well. 

 We lived in the basement of our home while he built it himself on weekends and nights.  I lived two years in the basement (no mortgage) with three babies while I saw friends and relatives live in brand new cute decorated homes.  It didn't seem right, (and about killed me) but years later while they are all struggling now with two mortgages on their homes we own two nice homes debt free.  But it was a sacrifice of many years to get to this point.  

 I'd hate to see Obama waltz in and take from us to give to my friends and family whom I saw go to fancy restaurants while I was making chocolate chip cookies out of a toaster oven. 

you know what my husband says about this attitude?  Go make your own oil.  Go start your own oil business.  Or figure a way around using their oil. 

I don't see you, KFC, or you, Jill, crying to everyone about how hard times are for you.  That's what I find crass and divisive.   

I never put anything in black and white.  Obama is the one saying he wants to decide who has more than they "need" and spread the wealth to those he figures needs it more.

This sounds a lot like "refund adjustment".  Reducing tax breaks = raising taxes.  A tax break just means you're taking less of their money.  You aren't giving them anything.  If you are reducing what you're not taking that means you're increasing what you're taking.

And what would those profits be?  Do you know how dangerous a field oil drilling and production is?

Does it disgust you that 12yr old actors make millions for playing pretend or their adult counterparts not only make millions but then use their celebrity to tell the masses what candidate is going to be best for the middle class?  Could a CEO get away with spending their money to influence people in such a way?...nope.

I don't think it's right that some get their money from a company whether or not the company can afford it.  I am sick to death of people using the term CEO as if it were synonomous with the devil.  I know a lot of CEOs.  While their punch-in/punch-out, leave work at work employees have real time off, they never get away.  They have the wait of the company on their backs 24/7.  They should get pretty well compensated for that kind of committment.

Just as there are a lot of CEOs who are greedy and crooked, there are a lot of people who just leach off from others and then cry poor me.  They don't sacrifice, work hard or take risks but expect to get paid.  Somehow such people feel they are owed a wage for just showing up every day.

How did those CEOs get where they are?  I don't think people think much about that either.  They probably just were in some good old boys club or knew someone at the top or inherited their position, right?  Of course they didn't earn it by taking positions of immense responsibility risking getting canned if their decisions ended up being the wrong thing for their company.  I'm sure none of them took responsibility for others on their way up.

 

 

Hardly a Christian concept. You're not kickin for Christ; you're kicking him in the ass.

Sorry, but I am so tired of hearing this crap.  Oil companies pay billions and billions in taxes, so what if they make a profit?  That's the point of business, to make a profit.  They don't owe you anything.

It's not ridiculous at all.  The mortgage crisis is based on people buying houses they couldn't afford.

Crass?  Really?  I didn't get any sympathy from anyone when my family was eating bean soup and cornbread for 3 days a week, making our own clothes, chopping our own wood in order to heat our house that my parents built with their own hands.  But I didn't cry about hard times when I had them.  I'm not crying now because I'm not having a hard time but I'm not apologizing either!

 

 

TW...did you not read what I said?  I said I lived in the basement with three babies making food out of a toaster oven because I had NO stove.  Three kids in one bedroom, us in another...for TWO years.  That was two cribs and a twin bed in one room.  Then on top of that we had our newlywed brother and sister-in-law move in with us for one year.  They slept in the top story (this was a cape) with no insulation at first as the house was just framed.  They had no heat and when it snowed the snow would come in the vent and land on them while they slept.  Not much better than sleeping outside. 

I've written about those times we made so little money I had maybe $30-40 for a week's worth of groceries.  One year I had absolutely NO money for Christmas and the local church gave us $500.  Don't tell me I didn't go thru hard times...and no I never cried about it then nor would I now.  I appreciate each and everything we've got.  I know how rich we are in this country.  I dare not complain. 

We've been there TW.   We paid our price.  Now it's your turn.  We know what it's like.  From what you've written, believe me, you have it alot better than I did. 

 

typical liberal answer....don't attack the issue, go after the person instead.  If you have a problem with the oil companies making a profit then don't get involved.  Stay out of it.  Burn wood.  Burn coal.  Make your own alternative fuel or go without.   

Scriptures are quite clear, if you do not work you do not eat. 

 

 

 

It is ridiculous.  Well, actually, its conservative propaganda to increase the war on the middle and working classes.  Here are the facts:

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/722379.html

Jill, you do in fact make this some sort of black and white issue, polarizing between classes and parties.  You seem to think that the rich are a priveledged group as they have "made it" through their own hard work.  To say nothing, which you don't, of all those that work to make companies even richer. You kvetch about those friends and family you must help, but others, other citizens, you are suspect of them. Somehow, as KFC has also tried to suggest, they are responsible for their own financial mess as they should have been "better prepared" I think were her words.

Instead of pulling together, you worry about your own corner of your utopia, believing somehow that you exist in a vacuum and are not deeply interconnected with the well-being of the rest of the world.  Only a fool believes this today. 

 

Be well.

 

 

You guys must not be reading the same news articles I am, because there's a lot of stuff out there that is just plain offensive to working American families trying to make ends meet.

Literally articles asking us to feel sympathy (!!!) for people who are having to cut back and suffer the indignity of flying First Class instead of via their own private jet.  I don't care HOW they got the money to afford that kind of lifestyle in the first place (and I'm not under the impression that either of you, particularly you, KFC, are in that position of high luxury regardless...I don't begrudge either of you the success you've earned)...taking risks, eating beans, whatever...I just point blank don't feel sympathy for their slight reduction in personal luxury due to current market conditions and/or personal choices that led them to lose money or fear losing money. 

I don't think wealth makes someone more noble or superior (neither does lack of wealth) although our society seems to really idolize the wealthy and of course we can't have our special, special people suffering through a period of slightly less luxury.  Yeah, that's a no go for me. I dislike snobs and I don't have it in me to feel sorry for people who have everything they could want or need.  I don't think that applies to you, Jill (I have NEVER EVER found you as a person to ever be a snob or elitist...you have always as far as I've known you, conducted yourself with grace and class), or you, KFC.  It's not personal. 

But the class warfare stuff...the backlash...that you may be feeling, IMO, has its roots in exactly what I'm describing...panic and tales of conjured up woe regarding the poor, suffering super rich.  It trickles down to you guys I guess.  I dunno.

And KFC, would you expect me to apologize or feel bad for my husband and I providing a higher standard of living for our family than what you had when your children were small?  That seems backwards from the entire point you've been trying to make here.  My husband and I are nearly 30.  We have worked hard to get to where we are, even if it's not in the top income bracket.  Is it wrong that we've been able to provide a working stove and some stability?  We sure as hell sacrifice to have the life we have.

 

You obviously didn't read through my response.  As far as "kvetching" about others, doesn't charity start at home?  Wouldn't our society be better off if everyone made sure they were taking care of their own?  Also, plenty of "others" in society, including many family members have given me plenty of reason to suspect them.

You know nothing about how much I do for others anyway.  I have brought dinner to complete strangers because I heard they were ill or fell on bad times.  I've cared for others kids when they could find child care.  We donate to a list of charities too long to bother with here.  Those charities aren't just ones that have touched us personally.  We believe in helping our fellow man.  So don't preach to me about only caring about my own little corner of the world.

Sodaiho, I mentioned a candidate's policy but made no mention to party and in contrast, you came right out of the gate blaming the Republicans so please don't preach to me about polarizing.

If you are suggesting I'm a fool, you need not visit my blog again.  Perhaps I misinterpreted your comment and will give you the benefit of the doubt.  Please clarify for me.

 

of course they are.   Notice what you wrote "their OWN financial mess."  Own it. 

Of course there are situations that are unavoidable and no fault of their own like a medical issue or an accident that comes out of the blue.  I'm not speaking of this, I'm speaking about those that lived it up while we struggled and are now complaining because their kids college funds are dwindling.  Well, we didn't have college funds for our kids.  We never had the money to set aside like that.   But our kids made it thru as they worked thru their schooling and we worked as they went along to help as well. 

The mom who was crying about her kids college fund that I was speaking about on my blog should have been better prepared.  If she had enough for her son to make it for four years (as she claimed)  she should have taken it out of the 529 fund and put it in a safe CD not tied to the market as he was about to enter college.  She didn't because most likely it was making pretty good money until the market went south. 

 

 

 

 

And I can provide plenty of "facts" that dispute that, but regardless, what is this nonsense about conservatives waging war on the middle class.  That is just ridiculous.

Liberals have been telling poor people for decades that they will get them out of poverty....hasn't happened yet.  People make their own wealth, they don't need the government to "spread the wealth" to them.

Well I'm not sure what you're seeing but I've written about those stories I've been watching like the one I mentioned above.  I think we're on the same page TW.  I wrote about the high end Real Estate Agent profiled on Dr. Phil.  I'm sure she was making big bucks before the market crashed.  Her 17 year old (what looked like snobby daughter) seemed aghast that one would suggest she might have to work a bit to help out.  The mom with the two boys was trying to tell us that she didn't wish for her kids to have to contribute to their own education.  She, who wasn't even working, said (gasp) she now has to cut coupons (welcome to my world) and maybe have to get a job.  She has two kids.  One in college and a junior in HS and she's lamenting about working? 

I think we're all feeling the pinch.  I think it's relative.  Of course somebody filthy rich, as you've said, can't feel much with all the extra padding.  We don't have any debt but we can't sell our house, and it's lost value.  So for us we're carrying another burden we would like to be rid of.  We have to pay expenses and taxes on that house which is draining us.  Our IRA's tied to the market have gone down but since it's retirement we're not too worried but still it's not a good feeling to see this. 

I just tend to count my blessings and try not to focus on those things that I can do nothing about.  I may have to readjust things a bit and I'm willing to do so until this storm clears. 

 

No, but it seemed like you wanted Jill and I to apologize for doing well now when we both may have had it more difficult than you now.   You accused us of being crass and divisive remember? 

When I was 29 I had an 8, 7 and 5 year old and a 12 year old stepson we had on weekends (we had child support as well).  I was babysitting (in that still unfinished house) for three other kids five days a week and on school vacations to make extra money.  We moved into that unfinished house in the spring of 1986  when I was 26.  So by 29 I had lived there 3 years and just moved out of that basement onto the first floor.  It took the better part of 10 years to completely finish the house.  Just about the time we finished it we sold it.  It listed in six days and we were on our way. 

I didn't get the impression you were complaining about "having" to care for others...I read it as your sharing concern you have for those around you who are struggling due to illness, finance, etc.

??

KFC:  I don't really disagree with you guys on this.  We all make choices and live with those choices.  I also don't feel sorry for the douchebags who drew out enormous home equity loans on family homes they inherited and then ended up in foreclosure because they couldn't pay the $500k they financed on a home worth less than $200k.  Greed, on the part of the "poor" and on the part of the "priviledged" alike have contributed to the crisis.  

I think people are pretty angry about the corporate bail-outs, though and THAT has a lot to do with the class warfare feeling going on as well. The media is really feeding this whole thing.  I can't read the news without feeling angry and worried.  Heh, before I was all worked up and worried about the war and now I get to be worried and worked up over the economy.  Nice.

 

No, I didn't.  Please read that again.  The NEWS ARTICLES I'VE READ REGARDING THE WOES OF THE SUPER RICH ARE CRASS AND DIVISIVE. 

I would also suggest that you and your husband made choices that put you in the position you were in when you were living in poverty at age 29.  You two were obviously responsible and make good choices later that lifted your family out of poverty, but I don't think I understand what point you're trying to make in comparing and contrasting me at age 29 and you at age 29 (and I do have work I do to contribute financially, btw)...??

 

ETA:  Upon re-reading the crass and divisive comment, I see that I was not very clear in my wording.  By "THAT" I meant the news articles I've been complaining about this entire thread, LOL.