http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Polish_Non-Aggression_Pact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement

Because Diplomacy always works to stop wars.

listen it 100 people im sorry but would u rather 10s of thousands sorry but itis only 100 people doing their job out of 6 or 7 billion omg thats a big diffrence they knew what their job was when they joined army bo ho u went to war they wtf why u join army ok i know 20+ plus people who went over their they all wanted to go so stfu and let them be

Wizzbang won this thread, ghost prime put his foot on its throat and shut it the f***k up GG and God Bless America /salute our brave guys and gals in uniform and /salute to those Iraqis fighting to keep thier nation safe

Ghost_prime, it says in your profile that your 18. If that is so, I am puzzled as to how you could be deployed in a war that started years ago. I've just entered military service for my country, Indonesia, and I would have to wait for about 2-4 years before I could join my friends that are in Lebanon and Sudan.

He could be there 6 weeks after joining.

I don't wanna reread the pages but i remember ghost_prime saying that he was one of those people that went there first. If I remember correctly, didn't the Iraq war start at 2003? that would mean that he would've been 13. Plus I remember somewhere here that he said he was a tank commander of an M1A2 Abrams. That from what I remember would require more experience than just 6 weeks. *sorry i got some internet lag, slow page loading. Can't check back on what he wrote to quote it. So correct me if I'm wrong.* -(I respect all soldiers of all nationalities that sacrifice themselves to protect their family and countries. Thats the reason that drove me to join.)-

My profile says I am 24 I am not I will be 45 on tuesday

Yes, but by the way he directs small insults at people that argue, it feels a bit immature. Doesn't feel like the typical professional soldier to me. With this it makes 18 a more believable number. My friends from the US and are in the army can make a more reasonable and intelligent post than blurting out experiences and calling people idiots.

Can we not just talk about the game ? Wasn't expecting this kind of chatter, here of all places

 (:( 

Yockers, you weren't expecting chatter about Iran and bombs in a thread entitled "USA Bombs Iran"?

You clicked on this thread expecting us to be talking about Galactic Civilizations 2? Really?

This was the post I questioned Ghost prime and this is the place that mentioned medical experiments it all started here .

I never said there where no mass graves I said this particular instance was false and I still say it is false.

So again I ask " Ghost prime you are asking us to believe that the United States armed forces found a mass grave with 10,000 babies in it in Iraq killed for medical experiments under the Saddam regime and have carefully kept it hidden from the world because they wanted to protect Saddam's reputaion ? ? "

Wow, quite an interesting thread. Not one I expected to find on this forum, and it for all its venom it's nearly completely devoid of useful content.

Let's start from the beginning: what was our original intention in invading Iraq? The story told by the Bush administration was that the overthrowing of Saddam Hussein was in the interest of national security, as he was amassing WMDs and actively supporting terrorism.

The evidence Mr. Bush presented that proved Iraq was making nuclear weaponry has been proven a forgery. He has since raised no investigation into this matter. Going to war on a premise that is proven false should already be grounds for impeachment, but let's move one.

Second, we've known for years that Saddam was not friendly with Al Qaeda, at all. In fact, they hated him. Saddam ran a secular leadership, which is at the opposite end of the spectrum from Al Qaeda and their Taliban protectors.

On the issue of practicality, supporters of the war argue that the Surge has succeeded and that the mission is almost accomplished. But, to be fair, the Surge should not be a point of special pride for the conservative right. Bush's generals warned him long before the invasion that our invasion force was undermanned, but the Bush administration went ahead with their plan and paid dearly for it in the early years. Now that they have finally bolstered our forces their, we are seeing more success in quelling the violence. However, that doesn't mean that the new Iraqi government is making any political progress, and that is the real key in changing Iraq. Without making adequate political and social reforms, the quelled violence will only erupt again when we leave.

And so this leaves us at the fork in the road we started with: should we stay, or should we go? I argue that the time for withdrawal is soon. Simply put, our economy cannot stand this war much longer. It has completely and utterly failed in its goal of making the US safe from terrorists. In fact, Al Qaeda has just recently recruited an entire new generation of lieutenants. They are regaining ground steadily in Afghanistan, fortifying the border region between Afghanistan/Pakistan, and gaining public favor once more in both of those regions. Our occupation of Iraq has distracted us from an enemy far more dangerous than Saddam ever was.

In addition to being utterly abysmal as a tactic of security, one must ask the question of Iraq: was it worth it? Do the ends justify the means? Even with the added strength of the Surge, the outcome in Iraq looks grim either way. We are facing an enemy that will, in all likelihood, never succumb to the mighty American military. This is the problem with the kind warfare that America has come to know so well. Like Vietnam before it, Iraq is a conflict that will drag on because we fight an enemy that will not succumb with vague and unlikely victory conditions. Even if McCain gets elected and we continue the fight, the chance of real political and social reform being created by means of war is small, and we simply do not have the means to support a war in that country for 100 more years.

One must wonder why this country keeps getting involved in long, drawn-out wars with no clear conditions for victory. But honestly, the answer is pretty simple. Historically, money has always been a great reason for war, and it's no different here. Our government has decayed into a type of soft fascism thanks to the rampant lobbyism that buys off almost all of our elected officials. Many of these lobbyists represent corporations that have made record profits off of Iraq. Between the defense contracts (aka mercenaries, like Blackwater) and contractors such as Halliburton and KBR, who have made insane amounts of money to provide troop services/infrastructure, alot of cash has floated to the top. And it all goes back to the Federal Reserve in the end, who sit at the top of the pyramid. Nothing requires cash like a war, and the government is going to owe an extraordinary amount of cash back to the Federal Reserve (with interest, of course). And make no mistake about it: a handful of extremely rich and powerful bankers are going to be geting quite rich off of that interest.

In a sense, these conflicts are a giant, corporate pyramid scheme, with one massive central bank that sits at the top of it controlling the money supply. The government takes a loan from the Fed to fund the war. That loan goes to big military spending and plenty of corporate contracts. The corporations involved make massive bank off these defense contracts and their stocks soar, and they bring in heavy profit as the war goes on. In turn, the government taxes the profit from the corporations and pays back the Fed for the loan, plus some. The "plus" floats up to the top and stays there.

The saddest thing about all of this is that people will flock to defend this war. They will rush to defend it, despite the fact that it hasn't made them any safer. They will call it the morally correct thing to do, despite the total impracticality of this stance. In addition, this argument tends to be stunningly hypocritical. If we have a moral obligation to Iraq, then certainly we must have a moral obligation to Darfur? The fact is that a nation cannot be morally obligated to police the world. The only one that has ever tried sunk the world into near anarchy when it collapsed, as we will do if we are not careful.

I think we should stick to the advice of George Washington: stop meddling in the affairs of the rest of the world. Military action should always be a last resort, never a first choice, and it should be used with practical victory conditions as opposed to the quagmire that is Iraq. But, I can't keep ranting forever. To end this post, I'll let one of this war's greatest advocates explain why it was, and still is, such a horrible decision:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8MePwb6TEk

Starstriker1 wrote

"Realistically, a developing country military isn't going to be able to stand up for a moment to the US."

Umm
Sudan??
Vietnam??
The right tactics will win against the US.

I think someone, someday will stand up to the US? Proberly China or a Middle Eastern country.
Or the US will have another civil war.

right on target, there are few of people that understand this, and if you, sir, are american, you are one of the signs of hope for the US

Ghost-prime I also have to add that I fully understand your horror at being at the site of the mass graves in Iraq but remember that during the time Saddam was filling those same graves he was the friend and ally of the United States .

http://mondediplo.com/1998/03/04iraqkn

So when you , and I quote you , " hold one of the tiny fucking little skeletons in your arms " remember the man who put that innocent there was given millions of dollars in aid and arms by your government six months after the bodies had cooled.

You are obviously misled by the excessively liberal Media, Carbon.

Edit: These "jury-rigged rockets" in fields, as you called them, already killed a few here and there, and are causing civilians to live in constant fear in shelters. This is not as minor issue as you make it sound. Would you live in fear when constant alarms would sound off where you live, forcing you to drop everything and run for the shelters for your life? And for what? Why?

We (Israelis) don't just deal with Palestinians that throw rocks at us, that's for the cameras. We are dealing with a lot of bloodthirsty people here, that not only don't hesitate to slaughter civilians, they specifically aim to do so, and rejoice when succeeded. We're talking about exteremists that not only don't care about the value of human life on our side, but from theirs', as well.

We managed to fend off many countries' armies in the 60 years we exist thanks to the US aid, and our will to survive. Wars that mostly we did not start. I'm sure you've heard otherwise, and by all means, believe what you will, but we're fighting for our lives, here, not for profit, power, or land. Of course you don't believe me due to the fact that you gather your information about the conflict from people who can twist and turn it to their will using many different methods, but suite yourself.

My GF is taking a major in Islam. Do you know that according to the Koran, every "infidel" deserves to be put down by the sword? Who is an infidel, you ask? Anyone who doesn't accept Islam as his one and only religion. The phrase is: "Din Muhamad be'saif", which loosely translates to: The judgement of Muhamad is by the sword. Now, I'm not a fanatic Jew, I'm a completely secular and non-religious one, and have my share of Islamic friends, and as such, I don't ignorantly believe that all the followers of Islam are evil masterminds. However, I do understand that the extremists of the religion use this holy verse, amongst many others, in order to justify their killings and force others to do their will.

What's that has to do with anything? Well, you said previously that the reason 9/11 happened was due to the fact that US was helping us to survive. And to that I say: WRONG. You are an infidel to these people. You're symbolized with everything they hate: Relative wealth and decadence (according to them). Freedom. Open-Mindedness, and of course, the minor problem that you don't want to convert to Islam. Due to these extremists hate of the West and their interpretation of their religion, they would prefer to die than to see another infidel lives, thus you receive suicide bombing, using their own civilians for cover and sacrificing innocents in order to alter public opinion (let me guess, you don't believe that either, right?), and yes, even throwing a nuclear missile at us, possibly wiping us out, even if it means that they, as a nation, would die soon after. And again, I'm talking about extremists, not secular or the small civilian.

Ahmedinijad is such an extremist. He sponsored terror, helped brainwashing the masses to hate you and me for no reason, used guerilla tactics against many of these so-called "infidels" behind the scenes for far too long, now, and according to him, the gloves are off. This is not the only problem the world have, sure, but it is a major one that needs to be handled if you want your (and mine) way of life to survive. Of course, sitting in your ivory tower, these are a bunch of fairy-tales and nonsense fear-talk to you, but if no one would act, it will eventually reach you, sooner or later.

Sorry friend but if your girlfriend is taking a major in islam and reads that interpretation then she needs a tutor

Father Griffith: In many ways the Koran encourages dialogue with Jews and Christians — "People of the Book" as the Koran calls them some 54 times. For example, Chapter 10, Verse 94, says, "If you are in doubt about what We have sent down to you, ask those who were reading scripture before you."

Chapter 29, verse 46, proclaims, "Do not dispute with the People of the Book save in the fairest way; except for those of them who are evildoers. And say: 'We believe in what has been sent down to us and what has been sent down to you. Our God and your God are one and to Him we are submissive.'"

Its a holy book , just like the Bible , just like the Torah and many others its not the message thats the problem its the readers.

welp people sorta did that in the 1950s too here



what makes you think i care about your (clearly objective, and unbiased) interpretation of islamic philosophy. i would also slightly question the credentials of any school who "offered a major in Islam" considering I don't think people usually major in religions.



fuck reasons guys, people just HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOM. THOSE BROWN PEOPLE DON'T HAVE MOTIVES, THEY ARE LIKE ANIMALS. THIS IS ARE COUNTRY.



here is a list of wars israel did not start:
here is a list of wars israel started by existing: all of them

Hope this doesn't turn into something religious..

Sorbin said it pretty nicely.

I'll just add in a little thing:

Saudi Arabia. That country is far more dangerous to us, and the rest of the world. But what are we doing over there? We're protecting their princes. The same princes that directly support terrorism. Bush over here is all 'buddy & pal' with them, just for oil. We already have a lot of oil, why would we need more? Because our oil is being put into gigantic storage facilities, in Texas. Right now, we have enough oil reserved to fuel the entire country for 6 months. Then there's the natural gas from Canada. Has anybody noticed the Rice Shortage? Yeah, the entire world's low on rice. But not the USA! We have our rice in reserve as well. Yep, we haz ur rice, itz n our base! We do this for economic gains. I'll continue using rice as an example. The world runs out of rice, they declare a shortage. The price goes up exponentially, even in the US. People start to buy multiple bags of rice, because they believe there is a shortage. (Some people buy 20+ bags per trip, this has made the stores put restrictions on how many you can buy, to 4 bags) Then the government states that there is no shortage, and sells its rice at the hiked up prices, globally. $$$$$$$$$! Its basically to control the global market, as per a Sins example, Player 1, the TEC, controls ALL Terran planets. Player 2 controls all Volcanic planets. Player 3 has a little of everything, and a few asteroids. Player 1 is desperately in need of metal, so is Player 3. Player 2 knows this, and schemes. He notices that Player 1, being short on metal, has no fleet built. He goes to war with player 1, and puts his massive reserves of metal on the market. He makes sure to make it obvious that his fleets are coming, giving player 1 enough time to buy metal, and queue up a fleet as well. The market for metal booms, and Player 2 now has a lot of Metal and Credits. Back to modern affairs, what proof do i have? The oil companies have made record profits off of this war. WWW Link This was 3 years ago, and the price of oil has doubled since then. This war was an economic war. 'But the US is still in debt!', you say. Well the money's not going to the government. Its going to the CEO's of those companies. They're best friends of Bush, and many Republican senators. Its capitalism that fuels them, its what gives them power. The rich own the politicians. I recommend watching "Lions for Lambs" it gives a very interesting view point on this war.

Last time I checked, I never made a profile on this board other then to give the information so that I would be able to update the game. All of the other profile information hasn't been touched by me.
Ghostwes, read the links, two of them are from Iraqis. If you still don't believe it then you are lost, go hide. I notice that now that I have provided links to many news sources including the BBC for our UK brothers, everyone has begun attempting character attacks instead of anything with facts.
I will, amazingly enough, agree with a few things being said by the other side though, the Koran is a very peaceful book, moreso then the bible. There are a lot less wars in the Koran. The reason all this is happening is the same reason Christians went charging off to the Middle East centuries ago, people in charge are the ones who say they know the holy book and they are telling everyone that their holy book says kill anyone not like you.
That's the nice thing about all this, it has shown that people degenerate into fools when proven wrong and barbaric in their desire to not loose face in front of people they have never met. With the number of men and women in the US who serve in the military, there was a very good chance that one or two of them would be part of this forum. Yet when one shows up to give a first hand account of Iraq, everyone bashes them or tells them they are not in the military. The good thing is, other then one or two screaming children, those who are bashing the most are those who do not live in America, which means that their opinions are pointless for those of us here. They will never take a chance to learn about the truth, just what they learn from the people who share their opinion in the news media. I've found that fools will agree with anything someone who is like minded is saying, no matter what is being said. Like a lot of the things that were said were the reasons for this war in the first place, a bunch of fools agreeing with the man that was in charge. There were not hundreds of tons of chemical, biological, or radiological weapons hidden in Iraq but there were some, which was reported in the news (look it up, I already looked plenty for you all about the mass graves). Still, people were dying by the thousands just for not agreeing with a government or believing in a different thinking when it came to their religion. I've proven this by providing numerous sources and even links with pictures which I'm sure someone can bitch about even though I covered a broad spectrum of the various news media as well as an account from two different Iraqis.
The bad thing is that now it's becoming (at least in part) a 'we hate Israel' as well as America thing. Last time I checked, they simply are trying to live there, in a land that Christian holy books says is theirs (I would guess those hating Israel most are the people who also have no belief in a higher power whatsoever as Liberial and Atheist tend to go hand and hand from my experience). If you call yourself Christian and say they have no right to be there, then you aren't much of a Christian as the Bible has said that is the land set aside for the twelve tribes of Israel. Is it a good reason for them to try and kill all the none Jews on their land, no, not at all. They need to learn to live together, simple as that. That land means so much to so many people that if there is anywhere in the world that people should set aside their differences, it would be in Israel. I remember back in the late seventies and the eighties we brought back making a peace sign, only this time saying 'Peace in the middle east'. This doesn't seem to be happening naturally as villains and tyrants seem to be the ones in charge. What needs to be done, I don't know, I just know the part I played while I was there, trying to keep a people I didn't even share a language with alive against people who worshipped the same god and speak the same language. Then again, isn't that what we are proving on this forum right here, that even the people of the Western world can be just as vicious as those in the Middle East. Will it be long before we are killing each other over what we believe, if this forum is any example, we will be. I still refer to those that disagree with me as brothers and sisters but I imagine that offends them to their core. I imagine that if they could, they would spit in my face, expecially if they saw me in my uniform (I figured out the only way to prove that I was in the military is to take a picture of myself in uniform, in front of my posts and I just don't care to prove it to people from other countries who I will never meet) though I doubt they would have the courage to do so otherwise there would be a lot more western on western violence going on in other countries when American servicemembers go to those countries to visit (happens all the time, US Navy ships stop in all sorts of countries so long as they have a port).
That being said, it seems the people from this country who are complain are only a small few and the number of men and women willing to take them to task for being fools is much larger. To the people who complain from other countries, the great news is that you really don't matter, you are not in a position of power nor will you ever be so all you are doing is raising the temperature around with all your anger. Whether the US is wrong to be in Iraq is no longer the question as we are there and have been there for years now. It's no longer a valid point. The question is how to fix the problems. If the US leaves, the country will burn to the ground in a few weeks (at least for a small while longer, soon they will be in a position to take care of it themselves). I know that the death of the tens of millions of people that live in the country doesn't matter to you all because if the US left, then you could blame us for leaving too soon and all the deaths would be again on our heads. You guys don't care about them, you just want someone to hate. Well I have good news for you, feel free to hate us, we really aren't that bothered by it because you do not represent the world as a whole. You all are a bunch of boys and girls that bought a game and used it as an excuse to take some kind of personnal war online to that game's forum. IDMopman, I just noticed that you gave me props on what I said about the skeletons while using it as a chance to bash me because we put him in power. You are very right, we are very much to blame, just as the UK is very much to blame for all of the deaths that happened in their former colonies around the globe. Between you, France, and the other powers that took over large sections of Africa and South America, you guys have brought about some of the worst cases of mass murder ether directly or indirectly and at the time, your country was a hell of a lot older then ours when we helped Saddam. Don't throw stones in a glass house IDMopman, you tend to look silly. I never said that America is perfect, as a matter of fact, I have many times said that we aren't and I don't agree with a lot that some of our leaders have done. We have made mistakes and that's a damn big one but at the time you all were arguing that the mass graves didn't exist and I proved that they did, my statement was in that regard but as I said, fools sling shit when they have nothing other to throw. Thanks for proving my point IDMopman though I didn't hear you or any of your countrymen saying that the UK has screwed up in Africa, South America, India, the West Indies, Scotland, Ireland, or the dozens of other colonies your nation had. I know, I know, you were just educating the savages right?
Anyway, other then proving that I am in the military which I just don't feel the need to go far enough to post a picture of me or my ID, I think I have firmly slapped down all the people who tried to prove what I said wrong. I've also address how now they are simply going to start trying to sling shit at me now because they have nothing else to work with which, in the case of those from across the sea or across a border, you better have a damn good throwing arm. Once again IDMopman, I never said medical experiments or that the graves were filled with just children and I challange you to find in my posts where I said that. Otherwise, this does seem that it is going to simply turn into a mud slinging match as the dissenters are running out of things to say though if anyone does want to prove that I said medical experiments and just children, let me know, I will gladly jump on that one because misinformation is a great tool of both sides of this conflict and I always love proving it wrong. Hear that Ghostwes, Carbon, IDMopman, find in my posts where I said medical experiments as we can't edit our posts it should still be there. Hell, last time I checked, we can't even delete them. Ether find where I said it or shut the hell up about it. To all of you out there that support our troops because we signed a paper and are doing our jobs, thanks for the support and we are really happy to hear from you. Feel free to take it a step further and send a soldier a letter over there, ether to Camp Victor or FoB Anaconda, the guys and gals over there would love to hear from you and sometimes, those of us over there don't get a lot of mail.
Well, off to more important things but I will check back to see if those gutless, spineless, cowardly sorry excuses for something that their mothers should have swallowed instead of baking can find the place where I wrote just children or medical experiments (hope that works to get you kids to try and find the post but I imagine that you will just keep on saying that I said it without proof because you know you won't be able to find it and add it in to the post. By the by, not only do I and the others who would like to know where I posted it want to have you cut and paste it but I would like to know what page I wrote it on) See yall later.

UEF Soldier, as you are part of the group, feel free to also attempt to find where I said it. A cookie to the person that finds it.

uh i can't read that much less respond to it, might try some paragraph/line breaks hth

You didn't ghost. I did.

Um, there are paragraphs, the breaks are very obvious unless you browser just doesn't seem them. I understand your reluctance to read it though, each time I post, you look more like a fool. Carbon quit making excuses, there's a part in there for you and I know that you are just posting because you need the attention. A part just for you, all yours...sorta.

Wow, I just realized that it does say I'm 18, I wish. As none of the other information is filled out, feel free to believe that or believe otherwise because I know I sound like an 18 year old. Actually, I think I sound like I'm 10, can I be ten years old? I think I want to change it to 5, that was in 76 so can I be 5, someone tell me how to change it.